Guest guest Posted April 20, 2002 Report Share Posted April 20, 2002 , Dr Ian McDonald <ian@m...> wrote: " except that vegan is defined by diet so someone could theoretically wear leather and still be vegan. " Actually, the definition of " vegan " that I have (and follow) is: " A vegetarian who eats plant products only, especially one who uses no products derived from animals, as fur or leather " (American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language 2000). I don't think I'd be willing to consider someone who wears animal products " vegan " . In terms of the cruelty behind it, whether a product is manufactured to be eaten or worn doesn't make much of a difference. However, my definition of veganism may differ from other people's conceptualizations. JLB > > > Peter wrote: > > > > Next thing people will be saying that they drink milk, but are > > actually vegan because they don't consider cows to be animals. Sorry - > > it doesn't work that way. > > Or - and this I have heard - that fish is not really an animal. (Oh, > many a time I have enjoyed a pleasant country walk through fields of > *fish*, I don't think.) > > > The problem is that because you are defining yourself as vegan, and > > then publicly eating an animal product, you make it much harder for > > the true vegans - because any restaurant you have been in will now > > believe that all vegans are OK eating honey. > > > > Please, for the sake of the true vegans in the world - stop calling > > yourself vegan! > > Seconded. > > As far as I know, there isn't a word for an almost-vegan who makes > exceptions for, say, eggs kept from well-treated pet ducks. (Or farm > sanctuary wool, except that vegan is defined by diet so someone could > theoretically wear leather and still be vegan.) I think there needs to > be a word for it, so that people who do that can describe themselves > without making life harder for us. > > I wouldn't say that honey-eating vegans give vegans a bad name, because > the case against beekeeping isn't IMHO quite as overwhelming as the case > against eating cow's milk, and the hypocrisy isn't quite as obvious. > When I told a then colleague I was vegan, she asked whether I took > honey, for that was the mark of a " real " vegan. (She lives in a big > flatshare with a couple of them.) It's much easier to take the biscuit > out of people who eat dead animals and claim to be vegetarian. > > They do muddy the waters, which is a pain in the you know where. So they > shouldn't call themselves vegans. > > How about this: " vegarian " ? Phonetically, midway between " vegan " and > " vegetarian " . > > > BB > > Peter > > -- > Ian McDonald > > http://www.mcdonald.me.uk/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2002 Report Share Posted April 20, 2002 From my perspective, veganism is a continuum of personal behaviours. Some vegans drink beer, eat monoglycerides, use condoms, etc., without asking whether or not the beer was made with an animal clarifying agent, whether or not the monoglycerides are animal-derived, whether or not the condom was produced with casein. I've also heard that some vegans use computers knowing that the electronics in them have been built in countries where the labour of human animals is being exploited and that the plastics (and the chemicals used to fabricate those plastics) were most likely tested on animals. Maybe that's just a rumour. It's a continuum; and what's important, I think, is that someone who refers to him or herself as being " vegan " should be doing the best that he or she can by consuming and using as few animal products as possible and contributing as little of their $$ as possible to those who do. More importantly, in my opinion, a vegan is someone who is dedicated to the social transformations required to end the exploitation of animals as a whole, an abolitionist. " Vegans " who trouble the boundaries a bit by owning a wool hat (though I don't personally agree with it) are not making my life any more or less difficult. What's making my life difficult as a vegan is the rest of the 99% of society that could care less about animal suffering and death. _______________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2002 Report Share Posted April 20, 2002 I think it is the basis of *diet* that determines a vegan, and that obviously doesn't include honey. I think from there vegans are all different but the common structure is diet. I don't buy leather and I only buy animal friendly toiletries etc so I agree with you, but some vegans would disagree. I still have two pairs of leather shoes which I have had since I was a vegetarian. I don't see the point in throwing them away, but I wouldn't replace them with leather. I only buy cruetly free/non leather products now. So I am a vegan who sometimes wears leather shoes, but I never bought them when I was vegan. So I think the easiest way to determine a vegan is by diet. Janey > > I don't think I'd be willing to consider someone who wears animal > products " vegan " . In terms of the cruelty behind it, whether a > product is manufactured to be eaten or worn doesn't make much of a > difference. However, my definition of veganism may differ from other > people's conceptualizations. > > JLB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2002 Report Share Posted April 21, 2002 Janey, I used to call myself a rawfoodist and drove everybody crazy. My God ... did I ever have blinders on my head. But now I eat cooked and I am much more tolerant of others. And if you've ever seen bee keepers ... they don't kill their bees, because that is how they make their living. They lose enough bees because of farmers spraying their fields with chemicals. Why would they want to kill more bees. And in case you are not aware of it ... there is a critical shortage of bees in this world. Werner. ---- Saturday, April 20, 2002 04:30:20 PM Re: Vegan...more than just a diet I think it is the basis of *diet* that determines a vegan, and thatobviously doesn't include honey. I think from there vegans are alldifferent but the common structure is diet. I don't buy leather and I onlybuy animal friendly toiletries etc so I agree with you, but some veganswould disagree. I still have two pairs of leather shoes which I have hadsince I was a vegetarian. I don't see the point in throwing them away, butI wouldn't replace them with leather. I only buy cruetly free/non leatherproducts now. So I am a vegan who sometimes wears leather shoes, but Inever bought them when I was vegan. So I think the easiest way to determinea vegan is by diet.Janey>> I don't think I'd be willing to consider someone who wears animal> products "vegan". In terms of the cruelty behind it, whether a> product is manufactured to be eaten or worn doesn't make much of a> difference. However, my definition of veganism may differ from other> people's conceptualizations.>> JLB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2002 Report Share Posted April 21, 2002 Hi Werner Why did you have blinkers on? You loved eating raw food so much. I don't call myself a rawfoodist - I guess I'm a raw vegan, but I just call myself a vegan. There are too many titles around and they bog you down! If you think about food too much you become obsessive about it. Just eat what you fancy (in my case its gorgeous fresh fruits and salads) and enjoy the rest of your day. I love eating raw foods. They make me feel so well! But each to their own. Janey x Janey, I used to call myself a rawfoodist and drove everybody crazy. My God ... did I ever have blinders on my head. But now I eat cooked and I am much more tolerant of others. And if you've ever seen bee keepers ... they don't kill their bees, because that is how they make their living. They lose enough bees because of farmers spraying their fields with chemicals. Why would they want to kill more bees. And in case you are not aware of it ... there is a critical shortage of bees in this world. Werner. ---- Saturday, April 20, 2002 04:30:20 PM Re: Vegan...more than just a diet I think it is the basis of *diet* that determines a vegan, and thatobviously doesn't include honey. I think from there vegans are alldifferent but the common structure is diet. I don't buy leather and I onlybuy animal friendly toiletries etc so I agree with you, but some veganswould disagree. I still have two pairs of leather shoes which I have hadsince I was a vegetarian. I don't see the point in throwing them away, butI wouldn't replace them with leather. I only buy cruetly free/non leatherproducts now. So I am a vegan who sometimes wears leather shoes, but Inever bought them when I was vegan. So I think the easiest way to determinea vegan is by diet.Janey>> I don't think I'd be willing to consider someone who wears animal> products "vegan". In terms of the cruelty behind it, whether a> product is manufactured to be eaten or worn doesn't make much of a> difference. However, my definition of veganism may differ from other> people's conceptualizations.>> JLB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2002 Report Share Posted April 21, 2002 As I said in my previous mail Werner - I think the shortage is due to under-nourishment. Jo there is a critical shortage of bees in this world. Werner. ---- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2002 Report Share Posted April 21, 2002 In a message dated 4/21/02 3:50:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, tofujojo writes: << *************bugs ROCK!*********** >> and are also found under rocks.... just don't let my S.O. here this..she hates bugs.... luckliy, she is off on a date er something...so, i get to type in peace!!!! and watch the spiders on the ceiling w/o her screaming and trying to dig to escape.... so, rant fer us jo-jo... ummmm rant about...uhhhhhhh cicadas..... fraggle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2002 Report Share Posted April 22, 2002 I don't mean to join the gang-up-on-Werner-brigade or anything because I don't remember Werner claiming to be vegan -- only that he ate bee "vomit". And it's a free world (sort of) and people are free to consume whatever they like. BUT beekeepers *do* kill bees. Both intentionally and inadvertently. They "destroy" queens (which can live up to something like 7 or 8 years) and replace them with new ones every year (or is it every 2 years?) Because the queens are chosen for them there is no chance for hives to split which is what happens in nature. Bees choose and create their own societies and in captivity, they are prevented from this. Their honey is also stolen and replaced with sugar water. Honey is nutritionally perfect for bee consumption. Refined sugar water, as you can well imagine, is not. So bees don't live as long. They don't get the natural enzymes and good stuff that they would otherwise get from the honey. It's pretty much slavery. Social insects (bees, ants, termites, etc.) are said to be highly intelligent as it takes tremendous capacity for language to keep their societies moving smoothly. BTW, I think this is my first insect lecture here on . You can expect more where that came from *************bugs ROCK!*********** jojo - Werner Saturday, April 20, 2002 4:06 PM Re: Vegan...more than just a diet Janey, I used to call myself a rawfoodist and drove everybody crazy. My God ... did I ever have blinders on my head. But now I eat cooked and I am much more tolerant of others. And if you've ever seen bee keepers ... they don't kill their bees, because that is how they make their living. They lose enough bees because of farmers spraying their fields with chemicals. Why would they want to kill more bees. And in case you are not aware of it ... there is a critical shortage of bees in this world. Werner. ---- Saturday, April 20, 2002 04:30:20 PM Re: Vegan...more than just a diet I think it is the basis of *diet* that determines a vegan, and thatobviously doesn't include honey. I think from there vegans are alldifferent but the common structure is diet. I don't buy leather and I onlybuy animal friendly toiletries etc so I agree with you, but some veganswould disagree. I still have two pairs of leather shoes which I have hadsince I was a vegetarian. I don't see the point in throwing them away, butI wouldn't replace them with leather. I only buy cruetly free/non leatherproducts now. So I am a vegan who sometimes wears leather shoes, but Inever bought them when I was vegan. So I think the easiest way to determinea vegan is by diet.Janey>> I don't think I'd be willing to consider someone who wears animal> products "vegan". In terms of the cruelty behind it, whether a> product is manufactured to be eaten or worn doesn't make much of a> difference. However, my definition of veganism may differ from other> people's conceptualizations.>> JLB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2002 Report Share Posted April 22, 2002 cicadas are strnge lil buggers....when i was a wee fraggle, the 17 yr cicadas came out..they were EVERYWHERE! at first, we didn't know wot they were, found a dozen on a neighbors bush, took em home, puzzled over em...then, by the end of the week, there were millions of them..everywhere the cicadas out here are tiny in comparison... walking sticks bite!!! fraggle " jojo " <tofujojo wrote: >AAH! Cicadas are my all-time favorites! Well, right after Luna Moths and >then comes praying mantises and walking sticks.... I lose track after that. > >Cicadas fill the summer days with music! And they are exquisite to look >at -- if you can find one still alive. Even dead, they're pretty cool. >Sometimes, if you are very lucky, you can happen to be out near a tree when >they emerge from the ground (they are day dwellers, but they emerge at night >so as to avoid the usual predators at this fragile stage) and you can catch >them hanging out together and testing out their new wings. I've only caught >that once. It's amazing though. By morning they are all gone and just their >shells are left. I used to torment other children with the shells. I would >cover my shirt with them and run after them or sneak up quietly and hang >them on their school bags or t-shirts. It's so funny to me how frightened >people are of insects. Especially something as harmless as the leftover >hull of a cicada. They deserved it > > >--jojo > > >- ><EBbrewpunx > >Sunday, April 21, 2002 6:54 PM >Re: Vegan...more than just a diet > > >> In a message dated 4/21/02 3:50:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >tofujojo >> writes: >> >> << *************bugs ROCK!*********** >> >> >> >> and are also found under rocks.... >> just don't let my S.O. here this..she hates bugs.... >> luckliy, she is off on a date er something...so, i get to type in >peace!!!! >> and watch the spiders on the ceiling w/o her screaming and trying to dig >to >> escape.... >> so, rant fer us jo-jo... >> ummmm >> rant about...uhhhhhhh >> cicadas..... >> >> fraggle >> >> >> To send an email to - >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2002 Report Share Posted April 22, 2002 AAH! Cicadas are my all-time favorites! Well, right after Luna Moths and then comes praying mantises and walking sticks.... I lose track after that. Cicadas fill the summer days with music! And they are exquisite to look at -- if you can find one still alive. Even dead, they're pretty cool. Sometimes, if you are very lucky, you can happen to be out near a tree when they emerge from the ground (they are day dwellers, but they emerge at night so as to avoid the usual predators at this fragile stage) and you can catch them hanging out together and testing out their new wings. I've only caught that once. It's amazing though. By morning they are all gone and just their shells are left. I used to torment other children with the shells. I would cover my shirt with them and run after them or sneak up quietly and hang them on their school bags or t-shirts. It's so funny to me how frightened people are of insects. Especially something as harmless as the leftover hull of a cicada. They deserved it > --jojo - <EBbrewpunx Sunday, April 21, 2002 6:54 PM Re: Vegan...more than just a diet > In a message dated 4/21/02 3:50:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, tofujojo > writes: > > << *************bugs ROCK!*********** > >> > > and are also found under rocks.... > just don't let my S.O. here this..she hates bugs.... > luckliy, she is off on a date er something...so, i get to type in peace!!!! > and watch the spiders on the ceiling w/o her screaming and trying to dig to > escape.... > so, rant fer us jo-jo... > ummmm > rant about...uhhhhhhh > cicadas..... > > fraggle > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2002 Report Share Posted April 22, 2002 - <EBbrewpunx Monday, April 22, 2002 8:45 AM RE: Re: Vegan...more than just a diet > cicadas are strnge lil buggers....when i was a wee fraggle, the 17 yr cicadas came out..they were EVERYWHERE! at first, we didn't know wot they were, found a dozen on a neighbors bush, took em home, puzzled over em...then, by the end of the week, there were millions of them..everywhere > the cicadas out here are tiny in comparison... Yeah, there are different varieties. The smaller ones are less frequent visitors (the 17 year or whatever) -- annually we get the big ones. And then there are the " Cicada Killers " which are these mammoth, nasty wasps that prey on cicadas. They sting them until they are paralyzed (but still very much alive) and carry them up tall trees in order to get enough height to actually fly with them off to their nests where they use their sharp ova positors to break through the cicadas exoskeleton (sp?) and lay their eggs. The eggs then hatch and eat the cicada alive from the inside-out. What a nightmare that must be! I'm hoping that the cicada is put in some kind of comatose state by the stinging. I just can't imagine mother nature being that cruel. The little green cicadas are the prettiest, IMO. > walking sticks bite!!! That's why I like them Just kidding, I wasn't aware that they bite, actually. They pretty much act like they don't really care to be bothered with, though, so I'm not surprised. I've never been able to pick one up, I don't think. Praying mantises sometimes like hanging out with you, though. And my guess is that they can bite you pretty good if they wanted to as they are carnivorous. But they'll sit on your shoulder and hang out for quite a while. They watch you! They tilt their pretty heads around and look right at you! I think they are the only (or one of the only) insects that have heads that move almost like ours do. Most insects have pretty fixed heads or a relatively limited range of motion. Mantises can look up and down and around. Please just tell me stop or I will keep going.... I wanted to be an entomologist when I was little, but my father told me they killed bugs so I started playing with Barbies instead. Bugs are much prettier than Barbie, though. --jojo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 agghhhh i hate those damn shells lol...i hate cicadas too...once in a town away from me...they had this summer like 4-6 years ago... where they had cicadas EVERYWHERE!!! seriously they were dead all over the streets and sidewalks...and flying around in like sworms...oh it was nasty...and so me and my friend were walking...and one landed on the back of my ankle...i was freaking out...screaming... and flaling my arms...lol...what i sight i must have been lol...they do sound lovely though..i must say...but i'm fine to hear them from a distance lol casey > " jojo " <tofujojo > > >Re: Vegan...more than just a diet >Mon, 22 Apr 2002 11:35:38 -0700 > >AAH! Cicadas are my all-time favorites! Well, right after Luna Moths and >then comes praying mantises and walking sticks.... I lose track after >that. > >Cicadas fill the summer days with music! And they are exquisite to look >at -- if you can find one still alive. Even dead, they're pretty cool. >Sometimes, if you are very lucky, you can happen to be out near a tree when >they emerge from the ground (they are day dwellers, but they emerge at >night >so as to avoid the usual predators at this fragile stage) and you can catch >them hanging out together and testing out their new wings. I've only >caught >that once. It's amazing though. By morning they are all gone and just >their >shells are left. I used to torment other children with the shells. I >would >cover my shirt with them and run after them or sneak up quietly and hang >them on their school bags or t-shirts. It's so funny to me how frightened >people are of insects. Especially something as harmless as the leftover >hull of a cicada. They deserved it > > >--jojo > > >- ><EBbrewpunx > >Sunday, April 21, 2002 6:54 PM >Re: Vegan...more than just a diet > > > > In a message dated 4/21/02 3:50:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >tofujojo > > writes: > > > > << *************bugs ROCK!*********** > > >> > > > > and are also found under rocks.... > > just don't let my S.O. here this..she hates bugs.... > > luckliy, she is off on a date er something...so, i get to type in >peace!!!! > > and watch the spiders on the ceiling w/o her screaming and trying to dig >to > > escape.... > > so, rant fer us jo-jo... > > ummmm > > rant about...uhhhhhhh > > cicadas..... > > > > fraggle > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 One of the times I was truly frightened by an insect was the time this huge, long wasp-like creature kept coming after my leg. I truly freaked out, because I had never seen one before, nor have I ever since, and it had this massive ova-positor that it kept trying to pierce my leg with -- I don't know if it was some freaky parasitic wasp or what but I will swear to this day it was not trying to sting me -- it was trying to lay eggs on me! Freaking out, flailing, all that good stuff. I kept kicking my leg and it would lose it's grip and then come back after my leg again. Maybe it was just teasing me. Who can say? --jojo www.tofu2go.com - " casey thompson " <veganmunkee Tuesday, April 23, 2002 7:15 PM Re: Vegan...more than just a diet > agghhhh i hate those damn shells lol...i hate cicadas too...once in a town > away from me...they had this summer like 4-6 years ago... where they had > cicadas EVERYWHERE!!! seriously they were dead all over the streets and > sidewalks...and flying around in like sworms...oh it was nasty...and so me > and my friend were walking...and one landed on the back of my ankle...i was > freaking out...screaming... and flaling my arms...lol...what i sight i must > have been lol...they do sound lovely though..i must say...but i'm fine to > hear them from a distance lol > > casey > > > > " jojo " <tofujojo > > > > > >Re: Vegan...more than just a diet > >Mon, 22 Apr 2002 11:35:38 -0700 > > > >AAH! Cicadas are my all-time favorites! Well, right after Luna Moths and > >then comes praying mantises and walking sticks.... I lose track after > >that. > > > >Cicadas fill the summer days with music! And they are exquisite to look > >at -- if you can find one still alive. Even dead, they're pretty cool. > >Sometimes, if you are very lucky, you can happen to be out near a tree when > >they emerge from the ground (they are day dwellers, but they emerge at > >night > >so as to avoid the usual predators at this fragile stage) and you can catch > >them hanging out together and testing out their new wings. I've only > >caught > >that once. It's amazing though. By morning they are all gone and just > >their > >shells are left. I used to torment other children with the shells. I > >would > >cover my shirt with them and run after them or sneak up quietly and hang > >them on their school bags or t-shirts. It's so funny to me how frightened > >people are of insects. Especially something as harmless as the leftover > >hull of a cicada. They deserved it > > > > >--jojo > > > > > >- > ><EBbrewpunx > > > >Sunday, April 21, 2002 6:54 PM > >Re: Vegan...more than just a diet > > > > > > > In a message dated 4/21/02 3:50:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > >tofujojo > > > writes: > > > > > > << *************bugs ROCK!*********** > > > >> > > > > > > and are also found under rocks.... > > > just don't let my S.O. here this..she hates bugs.... > > > luckliy, she is off on a date er something...so, i get to type in > >peace!!!! > > > and watch the spiders on the ceiling w/o her screaming and trying to dig > >to > > > escape.... > > > so, rant fer us jo-jo... > > > ummmm > > > rant about...uhhhhhhh > > > cicadas..... > > > > > > fraggle > > > > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 i actually liked the cicadas.. now, a mosquito storm..that sounds nasty..... and, mayfly swarms are neat,....billions of em desperately flying about, horny and lookin fer luv...be it the next mayfly, er yer ear...wheeeeeeeee fraggle " casey thompson " <veganmunkee wrote: >agghhhh i hate those damn shells lol...i hate cicadas too...once in a town >away from me...they had this summer like 4-6 years ago... where they had >cicadas EVERYWHERE!!! seriously they were dead all over the streets and >sidewalks...and flying around in like sworms...oh it was nasty...and so me >and my friend were walking...and one landed on the back of my ankle...i was >freaking out...screaming... and flaling my arms...lol...what i sight i must >have been lol...they do sound lovely though..i must say...but i'm fine to >hear them from a distance lol > > casey > > >> " jojo " <tofujojo >> >> >>Re: Vegan...more than just a diet >>Mon, 22 Apr 2002 11:35:38 -0700 >> >>AAH! Cicadas are my all-time favorites! Well, right after Luna Moths and >>then comes praying mantises and walking sticks.... I lose track after >>that. >> >>Cicadas fill the summer days with music! And they are exquisite to look >>at -- if you can find one still alive. Even dead, they're pretty cool. >>Sometimes, if you are very lucky, you can happen to be out near a tree when >>they emerge from the ground (they are day dwellers, but they emerge at >>night >>so as to avoid the usual predators at this fragile stage) and you can catch >>them hanging out together and testing out their new wings. I've only >>caught >>that once. It's amazing though. By morning they are all gone and just >>their >>shells are left. I used to torment other children with the shells. I >>would >>cover my shirt with them and run after them or sneak up quietly and hang >>them on their school bags or t-shirts. It's so funny to me how frightened >>people are of insects. Especially something as harmless as the leftover >>hull of a cicada. They deserved it > >> >>--jojo >> >> >>- >><EBbrewpunx >> >>Sunday, April 21, 2002 6:54 PM >>Re: Vegan...more than just a diet >> >> >> > In a message dated 4/21/02 3:50:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >>tofujojo >> > writes: >> > >> > << *************bugs ROCK!*********** >> > >> >> > >> > and are also found under rocks.... >> > just don't let my S.O. here this..she hates bugs.... >> > luckliy, she is off on a date er something...so, i get to type in >>peace!!!! >> > and watch the spiders on the ceiling w/o her screaming and trying to dig >>to >> > escape.... >> > so, rant fer us jo-jo... >> > ummmm >> > rant about...uhhhhhhh >> > cicadas..... >> > >> > fraggle >> > >> > >> > To send an email to - >> > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.