Guest guest Posted July 9, 2002 Report Share Posted July 9, 2002 >>yellow-legged veggie<<< Yeah, I wondered about that part myself. I just left AR2002 and at least 90% were vegans - I don't recall seeing many yellow folk running around!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2002 Report Share Posted July 9, 2002 >>You are very lucky Jo and I envy you both. I wish I could find a compatible male friend/lover. but I'd want them to be vegan as well . There aren't many about !!!!!<< I kind of like Fraggle's comment about the pheremones - we need a radar. I think I'm about to give up myself - Try being 40, very set in your ways, living in a house with 3 VERY large psychotic dogs, 3 old domineering kitties, going to law school (so person must have something of a mind - can't get by on body alone - LOL), but being a die-hard Harley biker (so person must also be somewhat of a hellion and tattoos and long hair are acceptable just have to be able to change out of that black harley t-shirt every now and then for " appearances " at lawyer functions - LOL), being strict vegan, and being extremely involved in animal rights work all other non-working hours. Not many men out there fall into that category - especially in Pittsburgh, PA - gads I gotta move!! Thought I found one last winter but I was so thrilled to find a male " version of me " that I scared him off!!! LOL!!! Still don't quite know how I did it because anyone that dates me gets to squeeze in about a total of 4 unused hours a week - you would think that should solve the fear of committment - hahahaha!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2002 Report Share Posted July 9, 2002 Yeah its not easy , and I have less time left (50's !!!). I've been married and have 2 boys still at home one with Down's syndrome , and an elderly mum living with me. Apart from AR activities ,unlike you Pgh Pam , I'm quite normal !!!!!! ( Apart from the 20 odd rats of course--------forgot about them ) Bad luck about the last one Pgh Pam [pghpam] 09 July 2002 01:00 Subject: Re: Digest Number 395 - gads I gotta move!! Thought I found one lastwinter but I was so thrilled to find a male "version of me" that I scaredhim off!!! LOL!!! Still don't quite know how I did it because anyone thatdates me gets to squeeze in about a total of 4 unused hours a week - youwould think that should solve the fear of committment - hahahaha!!!To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2002 Report Share Posted July 9, 2002 ok this is gonna sound hella crappy but..ummm there are tons of vegans out there kids!!! or folks who are willing to try new things, er wotever... i know you have yer mate out there, just a-waitin' fer ya! maybe i'm just lucky in that the last several relationships either started with a vegan er they quickly went vegan sadly, they probably aren't anymore..just to spite me, and they probably stab kitties in the toes as well..just to be evil!! so..pam is gonna be a lawyer, is vegan likes dogs and cats, and rides a bike..... *bats eyelashes* if only i had an open realtionship again....or was single... hahahahhahaahahah tell me you like beer and i'm yers ahahahahah cheers fraggle " Pgh Pam " <pghpam wrote: >>>You are very lucky Jo and I envy you both. I wish I could find a >compatible male friend/lover. but I'd want them to be vegan as well . There >aren't many about !!!!!<< > >I kind of like Fraggle's comment about the pheremones - we need a radar. I >think I'm about to give up myself - Try being 40, very set in your ways, >living in a house with 3 VERY large psychotic dogs, 3 old domineering >kitties, going to law school (so person must have something of a mind - >can't get by on body alone - LOL), but being a die-hard Harley biker (so >person must also be somewhat of a hellion and tattoos and long hair are >acceptable just have to be able to change out of that black harley t-shirt >every now and then for " appearances " at lawyer functions - LOL), being >strict vegan, and being extremely involved in animal rights work all other >non-working hours. Not many men out there fall into that category - >especially in Pittsburgh, PA - gads I gotta move!! Thought I found one last >winter but I was so thrilled to find a male " version of me " that I scared >him off!!! LOL!!! Still don't quite know how I did it because anyone that >dates me gets to squeeze in about a total of 4 unused hours a week - you >would think that should solve the fear of committment - hahahaha!!! > > > > >To send an email to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2002 Report Share Posted July 9, 2002 I just have to say.....I married a meat-eater and things are great between us (granted I don't cook meat and he seems to like my vegan meals and he seems to be thinking about becoming a vegetarian-ovo,lacto). Still if he never changes, I love him just the same. I understand the want to share your life with another vegan, but from my experience I would have lost out on a lot if I had refused to see a meat eater. But then again, he's Baptist and I'm Wiccan so I guess we just like being different. Oh, and all the kitty talk makes me so sad. For everyone who has sick kitties, good luck to both of you. I am currently living w/o my kitties cause I had to move into a place that wouldn't allow them. I miss them so much, but my mom and dad are taking care of them. I am doing everything I can to move just to have them with me again. Hannah EBbrewpunx 7/9/02 11:15 AM Re: Digest Number 395 ok this is gonna sound hella crappy but..ummm there are tons of vegans out there kids!!! or folks who are willing to try new things, er wotever... i know you have yer mate out there, just a-waitin' fer ya! maybe i'm just lucky in that the last several relationships either started with a vegan er they quickly went vegan sadly, they probably aren't anymore..just to spite me, and they probably stab kitties in the toes as well..just to be evil!! so..pam is gonna be a lawyer, is vegan likes dogs and cats, and rides a bike..... *bats eyelashes* if only i had an open realtionship again....or was single... hahahahhahaahahah tell me you like beer and i'm yers ahahahahah cheers fraggle " Pgh Pam " <pghpam wrote: >>>You are very lucky Jo and I envy you both. I wish I could find a >compatible male friend/lover. but I'd want them to be vegan as well . There >aren't many about !!!!!<< > >I kind of like Fraggle's comment about the pheremones - we need a radar. I >think I'm about to give up myself - Try being 40, very set in your ways, >living in a house with 3 VERY large psychotic dogs, 3 old domineering >kitties, going to law school (so person must have something of a mind - >can't get by on body alone - LOL), but being a die-hard Harley biker (so >person must also be somewhat of a hellion and tattoos and long hair are >acceptable just have to be able to change out of that black harley t-shirt >every now and then for " appearances " at lawyer functions - LOL), being >strict vegan, and being extremely involved in animal rights work all other >non-working hours. Not many men out there fall into that category - >especially in Pittsburgh, PA - gads I gotta move!! Thought I found one last >winter but I was so thrilled to find a male " version of me " that I scared >him off!!! LOL!!! Still don't quite know how I did it because anyone that >dates me gets to squeeze in about a total of 4 unused hours a week - you >would think that should solve the fear of committment - hahahaha!!! > > > > >To send an email to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2002 Report Share Posted July 9, 2002 I had to rehome a rescued foundling kitten I had a few years ago, due to housing rules, these rules stink and I think a landlord's right to make oppressive rules like that should be severely curtailed! If you live somewhere you should have the right to choose how to live, if so long as you are acting legally not harming anyone. It's basic civil liberties. Hope you get your kitties back soon and that your landlord can't let the place after you go. I think it would serve him/her right for forcing you to part from your animal friends! I couldn't personally be in love with a meat-eater, but if you're happy that's good and I hope he does go veggie. Lesley Trusty, Hannah [hannah.trusty]09 July 2002 16:54EBbrewpunx; Subject: RE: Digest Number 395I just have to say.....I married a meat-eater and things are great between us (granted I don't cook meat and he seems to like my vegan meals and he seems to be thinking about becoming a vegetarian-ovo,lacto). Still if he never changes, I love him just the same. I understand the want to share your life with another vegan, but from my experience I would have lost out on a lot if I had refused to see a meat eater. But then again, he's Baptist and I'm Wiccan so I guess we just like being different.Oh, and all the kitty talk makes me so sad. For everyone who has sick kitties, good luck to both of you. I am currently living w/o my kitties cause I had to move into a place that wouldn't allow them. I miss them so much, but my mom and dad are taking care of them. I am doing everything I can to move just to have them with me again.Hannah EBbrewpunxTo: Sent: 7/9/02 11:15 AMRe: Digest Number 395okthis is gonna sound hella crappybut..ummmthere are tons of vegans out there kids!!! or folks who are willing totry new things, er wotever...i know you have yer mate out there, just a-waitin' fer ya!maybe i'm just lucky in that the last several relationships eitherstarted with a vegan er they quickly went vegansadly, they probably aren't anymore..just to spite me, and they probablystab kitties in the toes as well..just to be evil!!so..pam is gonna be a lawyer, is vegan likes dogs and cats, and rides abike.....*bats eyelashes*if only i had an open realtionship again....or was single...hahahahhahaahahahtell me you like beer and i'm yersahahahahahcheersfraggle"Pgh Pam" <pghpam wrote:>>>You are very lucky Jo and I envy you both. I wish I could find a>compatible male friend/lover. but I'd want them to be vegan as well .There>aren't many about !!!!!<<>>I kind of like Fraggle's comment about the pheremones - we need aradar. I>think I'm about to give up myself - Try being 40, very set in yourways,>living in a house with 3 VERY large psychotic dogs, 3 old domineering>kitties, going to law school (so person must have something of a mind ->can't get by on body alone - LOL), but being a die-hard Harley biker(so>person must also be somewhat of a hellion and tattoos and long hair are>acceptable just have to be able to change out of that black harleyt-shirt>every now and then for "appearances" at lawyer functions - LOL), being>strict vegan, and being extremely involved in animal rights work allother>non-working hours. Not many men out there fall into that category ->especially in Pittsburgh, PA - gads I gotta move!! Thought I found onelast>winter but I was so thrilled to find a male "version of me" that Iscared>him off!!! LOL!!! Still don't quite know how I did it because anyonethat>dates me gets to squeeze in about a total of 4 unused hours a week -you>would think that should solve the fear of committment - hahahaha!!!>>>>>To send an email to - >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2002 Report Share Posted July 9, 2002 I think a landlord's right to make >oppressive rules like that should be severely curtailed! If you live >somewhere you should have the right to choose how to live, if so long as you >are acting legally not harming anyone. It's basic civil liberties. sorta like if you smoke pot in yer house leslie?? *big dumb smile* sorry..i just couldn't resist no argument!!! *holds up paws to ward off blows* fraggle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2002 Report Share Posted July 9, 2002 Actually I would not personally have so much of a problem with people doing that, unless kids were around (I would not personally want to be near it either), but I did specifically say that oppressive rules were unreasonable if the person wanted to do something legal as well as not harming others, so you can't really throw the pot question at me. It's illegal, and you have every right to campaign for it to be legalised but until it is legal, then landlords really do have very good reason to ban it or they might be held liable for allowing it! With any kind of smoking you have to take into account the rights of non-smokers to clean air anyway. Keeping companion animals is perfectly legal on the other hand. Lesley EBbrewpunx [EBbrewpunx]09 July 2002 17:55 Subject: RE: Digest Number 395I think a landlord's right to make>oppressive rules like that should be severely curtailed! If you live>somewhere you should have the right to choose how to live, if so long as you>are acting legally not harming anyone. It's basic civil liberties.sorta like if you smoke pot in yer house leslie??*big dumb smile*sorry..i just couldn't resistno argument!!!*holds up paws to ward off blows*fraggleTo send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2002 Report Share Posted July 9, 2002 wot if you are allergic to em?? " Lesley Dove " <Lesley wrote: >Actually I would not personally have so much of a problem with people doing >that, unless kids were around (I would not personally want to be near it >either), but I did specifically say that oppressive rules were unreasonable >if the person wanted to do something legal as well as not harming others, so >you can't really throw the pot question at me. It's illegal, and you have >every right to campaign for it to be legalised but until it is legal, then >landlords really do have very good reason to ban it or they might be held >liable for allowing it! With any kind of smoking you have to take into >account the rights of non-smokers to clean air anyway. >Keeping companion animals is perfectly legal on the other hand. > >Lesley > > > EBbrewpunx [EBbrewpunx] > 09 July 2002 17:55 > > RE: Digest Number 395 > > > I think a landlord's right to make > >oppressive rules like that should be severely curtailed! If you live > >somewhere you should have the right to choose how to live, if so long as >you > >are acting legally not harming anyone. It's basic civil liberties. > > sorta like if you smoke pot in yer house leslie?? > *big dumb smile* > sorry..i just couldn't resist > no argument!!! > *holds up paws to ward off blows* > fraggle > > To send an email to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2002 Report Share Posted July 9, 2002 My landlady wasn't! Pretty rare and most people who ban them are not allergic. Lesley EBbrewpunx [EBbrewpunx]09 July 2002 18:23 Subject: RE: Digest Number 395wot if you are allergic to em??:)"Lesley Dove" <Lesley wrote:>Actually I would not personally have so much of a problem with people doing>that, unless kids were around (I would not personally want to be near it>either), but I did specifically say that oppressive rules were unreasonable>if the person wanted to do something legal as well as not harming others, so>you can't really throw the pot question at me. It's illegal, and you have>every right to campaign for it to be legalised but until it is legal, then>landlords really do have very good reason to ban it or they might be held>liable for allowing it! With any kind of smoking you have to take into>account the rights of non-smokers to clean air anyway.>Keeping companion animals is perfectly legal on the other hand.>>Lesley>> > EBbrewpunx [EBbrewpunx]> 09 July 2002 17:55> > RE: Digest Number 395>>> I think a landlord's right to make> >oppressive rules like that should be severely curtailed! If you live> >somewhere you should have the right to choose how to live, if so long as>you> >are acting legally not harming anyone. It's basic civil liberties.>> sorta like if you smoke pot in yer house leslie??> *big dumb smile*> sorry..i just couldn't resist> no argument!!!> *holds up paws to ward off blows*> fraggle>> To send an email to - >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2002 Report Share Posted July 9, 2002 is that anything like a free fire zone or a drug free zone? " Viv " <vc27 wrote: >I know of a man who's had council workers refuse to work in his house >allegedly because of the smell of his 80 guinea pigs... Wouldn't be so bad >if they were rescues but he breeds them. Can't be good for them, just >surprised the council haven't chucked him out. There's a website somewhere - >I can find the url if anyone's bothered... > >Viv >[living in an animal free zone - unless you count slugs, spiders, beetles, >moths... and me of course!] > > Lesley Dove [Lesley] > Tuesday, July 09, 2002 5:52 PM > > RE: Digest Number 395 > > > > I had to rehome a rescued foundling kitten I had a few years ago, due to >housing rules, these rules stink and I think a landlord's right to make >oppressive rules like that should be severely curtailed! If you live >somewhere you should have the right to choose how to live, if so long as you >are acting legally not harming anyone. It's basic civil liberties. > > Hope you get your kitties back soon and that your landlord can't let the >place after you go. I think it would serve him/her right for forcing you to >part from your animal friends! > > I couldn't personally be in love with a meat-eater, but if you're happy >that's good and I hope he does go veggie. > > Lesley > > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.373 / Virus Database: 208 - Release 01/07/02 > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2002 Report Share Posted July 9, 2002 I know of a man who's had council workers refuse to work in his house allegedly because of the smell of his 80 guinea pigs... Wouldn't be so bad if they were rescues but he breeds them. Can't be good for them, just surprised the council haven't chucked him out. There's a website somewhere - I can find the url if anyone's bothered... Viv [living in an animal free zone - unless you count slugs, spiders, beetles, moths... and me of course!] Lesley Dove [Lesley]Tuesday, July 09, 2002 5:52 PM Subject: RE: Digest Number 395 I had to rehome a rescued foundling kitten I had a few years ago, due to housing rules, these rules stink and I think a landlord's right to make oppressive rules like that should be severely curtailed! If you live somewhere you should have the right to choose how to live, if so long as you are acting legally not harming anyone. It's basic civil liberties. Hope you get your kitties back soon and that your landlord can't let the place after you go. I think it would serve him/her right for forcing you to part from your animal friends! I couldn't personally be in love with a meat-eater, but if you're happy that's good and I hope he does go veggie. Lesley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2002 Report Share Posted July 9, 2002 Thanks for the support on the pets issue. My landlord actually owns three dogs and they poop in the yard all the time. (I get so mad-I like dogs, but this is unfair to me). Also, I have shown I have a medical need for my companion animals-I've been on anti depressants and they had to up the dose since I had to move. It's an uphill battle, seems like all the laws protect the landlords. I've had guests at my previous apt. that had pet allergies and they never even knew my cats were there. I am an excellent housekeeper and responsible pet owner. Anyway, its too much to fight and now I am trying to get a job that provides an apartment (for free!) that allows pets. Hannah Lesley Dove 7/9/02 1:44 PM RE: Digest Number 395 My landlady wasn't! Pretty rare and most people who ban them are not allergic. Lesley EBbrewpunx [EBbrewpunx] 09 July 2002 18:23 RE: Digest Number 395 wot if you are allergic to em?? " Lesley Dove " <Lesley wrote: >Actually I would not personally have so much of a problem with people doing >that, unless kids were around (I would not personally want to be near it >either), but I did specifically say that oppressive rules were unreasonable >if the person wanted to do something legal as well as not harming others, so >you can't really throw the pot question at me. It's illegal, and you have >every right to campaign for it to be legalised but until it is legal, then >landlords really do have very good reason to ban it or they might be held >liable for allowing it! With any kind of smoking you have to take into >account the rights of non-smokers to clean air anyway. >Keeping companion animals is perfectly legal on the other hand. > >Lesley > > > EBbrewpunx [EBbrewpunx] > 09 July 2002 17:55 > > RE: Digest Number 395 > > > I think a landlord's right to make > >oppressive rules like that should be severely curtailed! If you live > >somewhere you should have the right to choose how to live, if so long as >you > >are acting legally not harming anyone. It's basic civil liberties. > > sorta like if you smoke pot in yer house leslie?? > *big dumb smile* > sorry..i just couldn't resist > no argument!!! > *holds up paws to ward off blows* > fraggle > > To send an email to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2002 Report Share Posted July 9, 2002 So what is your landlord's excuse, he sounds like a nasty b'stard? My landlady had a dog and her excuse was something like, that the dog and my kitten might not get on. This was about 12 years ago but I remember like yesterday how depressed I was rehoming Sally, and how angry I felt against this woman. Good luck with finding somewhere pets allowed and really soon. It's funny how the people here who are so hot on civil liberties issues and against oppressive laws as regards drug testing in schools are either silent on this issue that has affected us and our basic rights, or even go as far as to make excuses for your landlord's indefensible rules (and he is obviously not allergic, just a control freak more like). I always say civil liberties should begin in the home, before we can consider our liberties elsewhere, it's a question of priorities, and we need to fight for tenants/lodgers rights, whether you pay rent yourself or have welfare benefit to pay the rent, I believe it should be a basic right to be able to make certainly most if not all of your own rules where you live. I did campaign a bit on the issue a few years ago and I'm still interested in the pets and housing issue, with it being one of the issues that has affected me. I'll look if I can find any useful links that might help you. Another reason vegans should support laws to protect responsible pet owners' housing rights is because this situation with so many landlords not allowing pets causes lots of healthy animals to be put to sleep. Lesley Trusty, Hannah [hannah.trusty]09 July 2002 18:55Lesley Dove ; Subject: RE: Digest Number 395 Thanks for the support on the pets issue. My landlord actually owns three dogs and they poop in the yard all the time. (I get so mad-I like dogs, but this is unfair to me). Also, I have shown I have a medical need for my companion animals-I've been on anti depressants and they had to up the dose since I had to move. It's an uphill battle, seems like all the laws protect the landlords.I've had guests at my previous apt. that had pet allergies and they never even knew my cats were there. I am an excellent housekeeper and responsible pet owner. Anyway, its too much to fight and now I am trying to get a job that provides an apartment (for free!) that allows pets.HannahLesley Dove Sent: 7/9/02 1:44 PMRE: Digest Number 395My landlady wasn't! Pretty rare and most people who ban them are notallergic.LesleyEBbrewpunx [EBbrewpunx]09 July 2002 18:23 Subject: RE: Digest Number 395wot if you are allergic to em??:)"Lesley Dove" <Lesley wrote:>Actually I would not personally have so much of a problem with peopledoing>that, unless kids were around (I would not personally want to be nearit>either), but I did specifically say that oppressive rules wereunreasonable>if the person wanted to do something legal as well as not harmingothers, so>you can't really throw the pot question at me. It's illegal, and youhave>every right to campaign for it to be legalised but until it is legal,then>landlords really do have very good reason to ban it or they might beheld>liable for allowing it! With any kind of smoking you have to take into>account the rights of non-smokers to clean air anyway.>Keeping companion animals is perfectly legal on the other hand.>>Lesley>> > EBbrewpunx [EBbrewpunx]> 09 July 2002 17:55> > RE: Digest Number 395>>> I think a landlord's right to make> >oppressive rules like that should be severely curtailed! If you live> >somewhere you should have the right to choose how to live, if solong as>you> >are acting legally not harming anyone. It's basic civil liberties.>> sorta like if you smoke pot in yer house leslie??> *big dumb smile*> sorry..i just couldn't resist> no argument!!!> *holds up paws to ward off blows*> fraggle>> To send an email to- >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2002 Report Share Posted July 10, 2002 Hi Lesley > Another reason vegans should support laws to protect responsible pet owners' housing rights is because this situation with so many > landlords not allowing pets causes lots of healthy animals to be put to sleep. Time for someone on the other end of the situation to speak up here. In our street, we have one household which owns 6 cats. These cats sh*t in our garden regularly, meaning that we have to be very careful if we ever wish to do any sort of activity in our own back yard. They slaughter numerous birds and leave the dead bodies all over the place. They climb all over our cars and are, to be blunt, a bloddy nuisance. I personally would love to see cats banned from our street - it would make our lives more pleasant, and would prevent the deaths of many wild birds. It might also help to improve our morale if we weren't constantly having to clean up after our neighbour's "companions". Any children living in our street would stand a very big danger of catching nasty diseases from all the excretions left behind by these cats. Stange that you state that children should not be exposed to smoke, but that you think it's OK that they be exposed to cat sh*t. People who own cats seem to forget that for everyone around them, cats are nothing but a pain in the back side. It's all very well to talk of "rights", but you have to consider who you effect - y'know Lesley, a bit like having people smoking near you. BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2002 Report Share Posted July 10, 2002 I'm very surprised at your attitude and I know a lot of vegans who love cats and value their companionship and would be quite offended by what you are saying. What do you want to happen to the cats? Have them all exterminated? I don't like the fact that they are carnivores but if I personally had a cat now I would use Vegecat and feed it on vegan food (I know not all vegan cat owners do this though). Killing small birds and mammals is natural for cats, you can't judge them the way you can human beings who should know better. My kids don't play in cat dirt so they should be pretty safe, cats mostly bury their poos, it's dogs that just leave it and the owners who don't clear it up are the ones to blame. Responsible pet owners should not be made to suffer for the behaviour of the irresponsible few. Lesley Peter [snowbow]10 July 2002 17:12 Subject: Re: Digest Number 395 Hi Lesley > Another reason vegans should support laws to protect responsible pet owners' housing rights is because this situation with so many > landlords not allowing pets causes lots of healthy animals to be put to sleep. Time for someone on the other end of the situation to speak up here. In our street, we have one household which owns 6 cats. These cats sh*t in our garden regularly, meaning that we have to be very careful if we ever wish to do any sort of activity in our own back yard. They slaughter numerous birds and leave the dead bodies all over the place. They climb all over our cars and are, to be blunt, a bloddy nuisance. I personally would love to see cats banned from our street - it would make our lives more pleasant, and would prevent the deaths of many wild birds. It might also help to improve our morale if we weren't constantly having to clean up after our neighbour's "companions". Any children living in our street would stand a very big danger of catching nasty diseases from all the excretions left behind by these cats. Stange that you state that children should not be exposed to smoke, but that you think it's OK that they be exposed to cat sh*t. People who own cats seem to forget that for everyone around them, cats are nothing but a pain in the back side. It's all very well to talk of "rights", but you have to consider who you effect - y'know Lesley, a bit like having people smoking near you. BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2002 Report Share Posted July 10, 2002 Hi. I can see both sides here, as I love animals and have always had pets, but irresponsible pet owners can be a problem... >Time for someone on the other end of the situation to speak up here. In our street, we have one household which owns 6 cats. These cats sh*t in our garden regularly, meaning that we have to be very careful if we ever wish to do any sort of activity in our own back yard. They slaughter numerous birds and leave the dead bodies all over the place. They climb all over our cars and are, to be blunt, a bloddy nuisance. I know where I live, if someone is causing such a nuisance they can be reported to proper city authorites, as there are certain laws to protect the enjoyment of the neighborhood. This behavior is not the cats fault, it is the owners fault. And they do need to learn responsibility. It's not fair to the neighbors or the cats. >People who own cats seem to forget that for everyone around them, cats are nothing but a pain in the back side. I also just want to say I love cats and have always owned them. I have never found them a pain in the back side, and I know no one around me has been bothered by them. They are kept indoors (where cats should be kept-it is safer for them)- or let out only with my supervision. I am a responsible pet owner and no one other than me has ever had to clean up after my pets. Hannah --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com <http://www.grisoft.com> ). Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02 To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2002 Report Share Posted July 10, 2002 Hi Lesley > I'm very surprised at your attitude and I know a lot of vegans who love cats and value their companionship and would be quite > offended by what you are saying. What do you want to happen to the cats? Have them all exterminated? I would suggest having a large number of them neutered, so that they stop producing quite so many offspring - that would resolve the majority of the problem in around a decade. Most of the people I know who own cats throw them out of the house every night even in the depths of winter - not really what I'd classify as "valuing" them. I would suggest that there should be licenses issued for keeping cats which ensure that the owners take responsibility for the trouble caused by their pets - that way owners might ensure that they aren't a nuisance to others. > Killing small birds and mammals is natural for cats, you can't judge them the way you can human beings who should know > better. Cats have already been taken out of nature. Doesn't seem too much to ask owners to put bells on their collars - that way they wouldn't be able to kill birds. > My kids don't play in cat dirt so they should be pretty safe, cats mostly bury their poos I'm sorry, Lesley, you are talking rubbish here. > it's dogs that just leave it and the owners who don't clear it up are the ones to blame. And it is a criminal offense to allow your *dog* to litter in a public place without clearing it up. > Responsible pet owners should not be > made to suffer for the behaviour of the irresponsible few. Exactly - the problem is, I've yet to meet a responsible cat owner (and that includes the vegans I know who own them) - there might be one or two, but they are in a very small minority! BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2002 Report Share Posted July 10, 2002 Yes it can be a problem, so what landlords need to do is draw up is some kind of responsible pet ownership clause in their contracts, not have inflexible pet bans. I think it's insulting that your landlord has his own pets but clearly does not treat you with the same respect and trust as he would expect for himself. Lesley Trusty, Hannah [hannah.trusty] 10 July 2002 18:02 Peter ; RE: Digest Number 395 Hi. I can see both sides here, as I love animals and have always had pets, but irresponsible pet owners can be a problem... >Time for someone on the other end of the situation to speak up here. In our street, we have one household which owns 6 cats. These cats sh*t in our garden regularly, meaning that we have to be very careful if we ever wish to do any sort of activity in our own back yard. They slaughter numerous birds and leave the dead bodies all over the place. They climb all over our cars and are, to be blunt, a bloddy nuisance. I know where I live, if someone is causing such a nuisance they can be reported to proper city authorites, as there are certain laws to protect the enjoyment of the neighborhood. This behavior is not the cats fault, it is the owners fault. And they do need to learn responsibility. It's not fair to the neighbors or the cats. >People who own cats seem to forget that for everyone around them, cats are nothing but a pain in the back side. I also just want to say I love cats and have always owned them. I have never found them a pain in the back side, and I know no one around me has been bothered by them. They are kept indoors (where cats should be kept-it is safer for them)- or let out only with my supervision. I am a responsible pet owner and no one other than me has ever had to clean up after my pets. Hannah --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com <http://www.grisoft.com> ). Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02 To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2002 Report Share Posted July 10, 2002 I think Janey is a responsible cat owner, sorry to bring you into this Janey if you were keeping out of the argument but I know you love your cats! I agree about neutering and licensing to ensure responsible pet keeping, but in fact in the case of my little cat, the pet ban was what caused her to be allowed to breed. What happened was that I had to rehome her before having her neutered as she was very young and I only had her about a month or so, BUT I obviously kept her indoors as she was very young and could have come into season any time, and I had an appojntment made with the vet for the spaying. I rehomed her with a colleague who despite promising to keep the appointment and have her neutered, did not and in fact allowed her to get out and get pregnant and have 6 kittens, so because of the pet ban on me she went from a responsible rescuer to one who was plausible, seemed very sensible but turned out irresponsible. Lesley Peter [snowbow]10 July 2002 18:08 Subject: Re: Digest Number 395 Hi Lesley > I'm very surprised at your attitude and I know a lot of vegans who love cats and value their companionship and would be quite > offended by what you are saying. What do you want to happen to the cats? Have them all exterminated? I would suggest having a large number of them neutered, so that they stop producing quite so many offspring - that would resolve the majority of the problem in around a decade. Most of the people I know who own cats throw them out of the house every night even in the depths of winter - not really what I'd classify as "valuing" them. I would suggest that there should be licenses issued for keeping cats which ensure that the owners take responsibility for the trouble caused by their pets - that way owners might ensure that they aren't a nuisance to others. > Killing small birds and mammals is natural for cats, you can't judge them the way you can human beings who should know > better. Cats have already been taken out of nature. Doesn't seem too much to ask owners to put bells on their collars - that way they wouldn't be able to kill birds. > My kids don't play in cat dirt so they should be pretty safe, cats mostly bury their poos I'm sorry, Lesley, you are talking rubbish here. > it's dogs that just leave it and the owners who don't clear it up are the ones to blame. And it is a criminal offense to allow your *dog* to litter in a public place without clearing it up. > Responsible pet owners should not be > made to suffer for the behaviour of the irresponsible few. Exactly - the problem is, I've yet to meet a responsible cat owner (and that includes the vegans I know who own them) - there might be one or two, but they are in a very small minority! BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2002 Report Share Posted July 10, 2002 Do you feed your cat vegan and use vegecat? I know I would do that if I had a cat. If you are worried about the birds, it seems hypocritical to feed a cat on meat that is most likely from cruelly treated factory farmed animals. I think that is much worse than a cat killing a few birds that have had a natural free life, a bell on the collar is a good idea though and something I would consider seriously if I had a cat. A random drug test is such a little one off thing in comparison to being forced to part forever from a beloved animal friend, so it's pretty much about priorities for me, which messes up ones mental state more? I know which would for me, and Hannah has obviously suffered depression over her cats not being with her. Companion animals have a beneficial effect on mental health for many people. Lesley EBbrewpunx [EBbrewpunx]10 July 2002 18:08 Subject: RE: Digest Number 395ah gawd..its good to talk to you lesley..it certainly is interestingso, responsible pet owners shouldn't have to suffer fer irresponsible ones?i guess that doesn't matter a lick if they do drugs then huh? :)obviously we should all be pissin in cups and have random drug tests, but its ok if someone has 12 cats eating the neighborhood song birds...i can't speak fer peter, but i don't think he was advocating having them exterminated..i think he was advocating having folks be RESPONSIBLE pet owners..ewww..i said owneranyways..it maybe natural fer cats to eat birds, but it certainly is not natural fer there to be 20 cats per block, when there is one cat per 10 miles in the wild...we brought this problem onto the world, we have to take responsibility fer itdon't get me wrong, i luv my cat to death, and i luv dogs, weasels, ferrets, toads, ardvaarks, wot have you..but, if we are going to bring animal companions along, we have as much responsibility to make sure they don't go runnin amuk as we do trying to keep kids from shootin smack, wouldn't you say?fraggle"Lesley Dove" <Lesley wrote:>>I'm very surprised at your attitude and I know a lot of vegans who love cats>and value their companionship and would be quite offended by what you are>saying. What do you want to happen to the cats? Have them all exterminated?>I don't like the fact that they are carnivores but if I personally had a cat>now I would use Vegecat and feed it on vegan food (I know not all vegan cat>owners do this though).>Killing small birds and mammals is natural for cats, you can't judge them>the way you can human beings who should know better.>>My kids don't play in cat dirt so they should be pretty safe, cats mostly>bury their poos, it's dogs that just leave it and the owners who don't clear>it up are the ones to blame. Responsible pet owners should not be made to>suffer for the behaviour of the irresponsible few.>>Lesley>> > Peter [snowbow]> 10 July 2002 17:12> > Re: Digest Number 395>>> Hi Lesley>> > Another reason vegans should support laws to protect responsible pet>owners' housing rights is because this situation with so many> > landlords not allowing pets causes lots of healthy animals to be put to>sleep.>> Time for someone on the other end of the situation to speak up here. In>our street, we have one household which owns 6 cats. These cats sh*t in our>garden regularly, meaning that we have to be very careful if we ever wish to>do any sort of activity in our own back yard. They slaughter numerous birds>and leave the dead bodies all over the place. They climb all over our cars>and are, to be blunt, a bloddy nuisance.>> I personally would love to see cats banned from our street - it would make>our lives more pleasant, and would prevent the deaths of many wild birds. It>might also help to improve our morale if we weren't constantly having to>clean up after our neighbour's "companions". Any children living in our>street would stand a very big danger of catching nasty diseases from all the>excretions left behind by these cats. Stange that you state that children>should not be exposed to smoke, but that you think it's OK that they be>exposed to cat sh*t.>> People who own cats seem to forget that for everyone around them, cats are>nothing but a pain in the back side.>> It's all very well to talk of "rights", but you have to consider who you>effect - y'know Lesley, a bit like having people smoking near you.>> BB> Peter>>> ---> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).> Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02>> To send an email to - >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2002 Report Share Posted July 10, 2002 My mum had cats and I saw them poo and kick soil over it to bury it afterwards, they are much cleaner with their poos than dogs, I'm talking from what I have seen and it's not rubbish! Doesn't mean I would allow a cat of mine to poo just anywhere though. Lesley Peter [snowbow]10 July 2002 18:08 Subject: Re: Digest Number 395 Hi Lesley > I'm very surprised at your attitude and I know a lot of vegans who love cats and value their companionship and would be quite > offended by what you are saying. What do you want to happen to the cats? Have them all exterminated? I would suggest having a large number of them neutered, so that they stop producing quite so many offspring - that would resolve the majority of the problem in around a decade. Most of the people I know who own cats throw them out of the house every night even in the depths of winter - not really what I'd classify as "valuing" them. I would suggest that there should be licenses issued for keeping cats which ensure that the owners take responsibility for the trouble caused by their pets - that way owners might ensure that they aren't a nuisance to others. > Killing small birds and mammals is natural for cats, you can't judge them the way you can human beings who should know > better. Cats have already been taken out of nature. Doesn't seem too much to ask owners to put bells on their collars - that way they wouldn't be able to kill birds. > My kids don't play in cat dirt so they should be pretty safe, cats mostly bury their poos I'm sorry, Lesley, you are talking rubbish here. > it's dogs that just leave it and the owners who don't clear it up are the ones to blame. And it is a criminal offense to allow your *dog* to litter in a public place without clearing it up. > Responsible pet owners should not be > made to suffer for the behaviour of the irresponsible few. Exactly - the problem is, I've yet to meet a responsible cat owner (and that includes the vegans I know who own them) - there might be one or two, but they are in a very small minority! BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2002 Report Share Posted July 10, 2002 a few birds...bats...voles... now multiply that a few million times to take into account all the cats we have brought into our lives.... unfortunately, no, i do not feed my kittie vegan cat food...he is old, and extremely finicky..he refuses to even sniff any of the vegan er veggie cat foods out there.... not the best solution, but, he is my friend and companion, and if he will only eat some food filled with the corpses of dead fish..whoops, it sux, but he took me into his life, and its his decision..... fraggle " Lesley Dove " <Lesley wrote: > >Do you feed your cat vegan and use vegecat? >I know I would do that if I had a cat. >If you are worried about the birds, it seems hypocritical to feed a cat on >meat that is most likely from cruelly treated factory farmed animals. >I think that is much worse than a cat killing a few birds that have had a >natural free life, a bell on the collar is a good idea though and something >I would consider seriously if I had a cat. > >A random drug test is such a little one off thing in comparison to being >forced to part forever from a beloved animal friend, so it's pretty much >about priorities for me, which messes up ones mental state more? I know >which would for me, and Hannah has obviously suffered depression over her >cats not being with her. Companion animals have a beneficial effect on >mental health for many people. > >Lesley > > > EBbrewpunx [EBbrewpunx] > 10 July 2002 18:08 > > RE: Digest Number 395 > > > > ah gawd..its good to talk to you lesley..it certainly is interesting > so, responsible pet owners shouldn't have to suffer fer irresponsible >ones? > i guess that doesn't matter a lick if they do drugs then huh? > > obviously we should all be pissin in cups and have random drug tests, but >its ok if someone has 12 cats eating the neighborhood song birds... > > i can't speak fer peter, but i don't think he was advocating having them >exterminated..i think he was advocating having folks be RESPONSIBLE pet >owners..ewww..i said owner > anyways..it maybe natural fer cats to eat birds, but it certainly is not >natural fer there to be 20 cats per block, when there is one cat per 10 >miles in the wild... > we brought this problem onto the world, we have to take responsibility fer >it > don't get me wrong, i luv my cat to death, and i luv dogs, weasels, >ferrets, toads, ardvaarks, wot have you..but, if we are going to bring >animal companions along, we have as much responsibility to make sure they >don't go runnin amuk as we do trying to keep kids from shootin smack, >wouldn't you say? > fraggle > > " Lesley Dove " <Lesley wrote: > > > > >I'm very surprised at your attitude and I know a lot of vegans who love >cats > >and value their companionship and would be quite offended by what you are > >saying. What do you want to happen to the cats? Have them all >exterminated? > >I don't like the fact that they are carnivores but if I personally had a >cat > >now I would use Vegecat and feed it on vegan food (I know not all vegan >cat > >owners do this though). > >Killing small birds and mammals is natural for cats, you can't judge them > >the way you can human beings who should know better. > > > >My kids don't play in cat dirt so they should be pretty safe, cats mostly > >bury their poos, it's dogs that just leave it and the owners who don't >clear > >it up are the ones to blame. Responsible pet owners should not be made to > >suffer for the behaviour of the irresponsible few. > > > >Lesley > > > > > > Peter [snowbow] > > 10 July 2002 17:12 > > > > Re: Digest Number 395 > > > > > > Hi Lesley > > > > > Another reason vegans should support laws to protect responsible pet > >owners' housing rights is because this situation with so many > > > landlords not allowing pets causes lots of healthy animals to be put >to > >sleep. > > > > Time for someone on the other end of the situation to speak up here. In > >our street, we have one household which owns 6 cats. These cats sh*t in >our > >garden regularly, meaning that we have to be very careful if we ever wish >to > >do any sort of activity in our own back yard. They slaughter numerous >birds > >and leave the dead bodies all over the place. They climb all over our >cars > >and are, to be blunt, a bloddy nuisance. > > > > I personally would love to see cats banned from our street - it would >make > >our lives more pleasant, and would prevent the deaths of many wild birds. >It > >might also help to improve our morale if we weren't constantly having to > >clean up after our neighbour's " companions " . Any children living in our > >street would stand a very big danger of catching nasty diseases from all >the > >excretions left behind by these cats. Stange that you state that children > >should not be exposed to smoke, but that you think it's OK that they be > >exposed to cat sh*t. > > > > People who own cats seem to forget that for everyone around them, cats >are > >nothing but a pain in the back side. > > > > It's all very well to talk of " rights " , but you have to consider who >you > >effect - y'know Lesley, a bit like having people smoking near you. > > > > BB > > Peter > > > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02 > > > > To send an email to - > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2002 Report Share Posted July 10, 2002 Hannah I think what you say is very true. It is possible to find a lot to like or love in someone who does not do all the things you do, and there is always the chance that they may change their habits anyway. Jo > I just have to say.....I married a meat-eater and things are great between us (granted I don't cook meat and he seems to like my vegan meals and he seems to be thinking about becoming a vegetarian-ovo,lacto). Still if he never changes, I love him just the same. I understand the want to share your life with another vegan, but from my experience I would have lost out on a lot if I had refused to see a meat eater. But then again, he's Baptist and I'm Wiccan so I guess we just like being different. > > Oh, and all the kitty talk makes me so sad. For everyone who has sick kitties, good luck to both of you. I am currently living w/o my kitties cause I had to move into a place that wouldn't allow them. I miss them so much, but my mom and dad are taking care of them. I am doing everything I can to move just to have them with me again. > > Hannah > > > EBbrewpunx > > 7/9/02 11:15 AM > Re: Digest Number 395 > > ok > this is gonna sound hella crappy > but..ummm > there are tons of vegans out there kids!!! or folks who are willing to > try new things, er wotever... > i know you have yer mate out there, just a-waitin' fer ya! > maybe i'm just lucky in that the last several relationships either > started with a vegan er they quickly went vegan > sadly, they probably aren't anymore..just to spite me, and they probably > stab kitties in the toes as well..just to be evil!! > > so..pam is gonna be a lawyer, is vegan likes dogs and cats, and rides a > bike..... > *bats eyelashes* > > if only i had an open realtionship again....or was single... > hahahahhahaahahah > tell me you like beer and i'm yers > ahahahahah > cheers > fraggle > > > " Pgh Pam " <pghpam wrote: > > >>>You are very lucky Jo and I envy you both. I wish I could find a > >compatible male friend/lover. but I'd want them to be vegan as well . > There > >aren't many about !!!!!<< > > > >I kind of like Fraggle's comment about the pheremones - we need a > radar. I > >think I'm about to give up myself - Try being 40, very set in your > ways, > >living in a house with 3 VERY large psychotic dogs, 3 old domineering > >kitties, going to law school (so person must have something of a mind - > >can't get by on body alone - LOL), but being a die-hard Harley biker > (so > >person must also be somewhat of a hellion and tattoos and long hair are > >acceptable just have to be able to change out of that black harley > t-shirt > >every now and then for " appearances " at lawyer functions - LOL), being > >strict vegan, and being extremely involved in animal rights work all > other > >non-working hours. Not many men out there fall into that category - > >especially in Pittsburgh, PA - gads I gotta move!! Thought I found one > last > >winter but I was so thrilled to find a male " version of me " that I > scared > >him off!!! LOL!!! Still don't quite know how I did it because anyone > that > >dates me gets to squeeze in about a total of 4 unused hours a week - > you > >would think that should solve the fear of committment - hahahaha!!! > > > > > > > > > >To send an email to - > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2002 Report Share Posted July 10, 2002 Hi Lesley I do think it's sad for you that you had to rehouse your pet, but do understand the need for some of these rules. We are overrun with neighbours cats, and they kill so many wild birds (who currently need all the help they can get to stop the terrible decline in numbers) and small mammals in our garden. They are also very messy, using the borders just outside our front door, and the back sitting room window, as toilets. I think the problem is that there are 8 million cats in this country, and the balance is way out of kilter. Jo I had to rehome a rescued foundling kitten I had a few years ago, due to housing rules, these rules stink and I think a landlord's right to make oppressive rules like that should be severely curtailed! If you live somewhere you should have the right to choose how to live, if so long as you are acting legally not harming anyone. It's basic civil liberties. Hope you get your kitties back soon and that your landlord can't let the place after you go. I think it would serve him/her right for forcing you to part from your animal friends! I couldn't personally be in love with a meat-eater, but if you're happy that's good and I hope he does go veggie. Lesley Trusty, Hannah [hannah.trusty]09 July 2002 16:54EBbrewpunx; Subject: RE: Digest Number 395I just have to say.....I married a meat-eater and things are great between us (granted I don't cook meat and he seems to like my vegan meals and he seems to be thinking about becoming a vegetarian-ovo,lacto). Still if he never changes, I love him just the same. I understand the want to share your life with another vegan, but from my experience I would have lost out on a lot if I had refused to see a meat eater. But then again, he's Baptist and I'm Wiccan so I guess we just like being different.Oh, and all the kitty talk makes me so sad. For everyone who has sick kitties, good luck to both of you. I am currently living w/o my kitties cause I had to move into a place that wouldn't allow them. I miss them so much, but my mom and dad are taking care of them. I am doing everything I can to move just to have them with me again.Hannah EBbrewpunxTo: Sent: 7/9/02 11:15 AMRe: Digest Number 395okthis is gonna sound hella crappybut..ummmthere are tons of vegans out there kids!!! or folks who are willing totry new things, er wotever...i know you have yer mate out there, just a-waitin' fer ya!maybe i'm just lucky in that the last several relationships eitherstarted with a vegan er they quickly went vegansadly, they probably aren't anymore..just to spite me, and they probablystab kitties in the toes as well..just to be evil!!so..pam is gonna be a lawyer, is vegan likes dogs and cats, and rides abike.....*bats eyelashes*if only i had an open realtionship again....or was single...hahahahhahaahahahtell me you like beer and i'm yersahahahahahcheersfraggle"Pgh Pam" <pghpam wrote:>>>You are very lucky Jo and I envy you both. I wish I could find a>compatible male friend/lover. but I'd want them to be vegan as well .There>aren't many about !!!!!<<>>I kind of like Fraggle's comment about the pheremones - we need aradar. I>think I'm about to give up myself - Try being 40, very set in yourways,>living in a house with 3 VERY large psychotic dogs, 3 old domineering>kitties, going to law school (so person must have something of a mind ->can't get by on body alone - LOL), but being a die-hard Harley biker(so>person must also be somewhat of a hellion and tattoos and long hair are>acceptable just have to be able to change out of that black harleyt-shirt>every now and then for "appearances" at lawyer functions - LOL), being>strict vegan, and being extremely involved in animal rights work allother>non-working hours. Not many men out there fall into that category ->especially in Pittsburgh, PA - gads I gotta move!! Thought I found onelast>winter but I was so thrilled to find a male "version of me" that Iscared>him off!!! LOL!!! Still don't quite know how I did it because anyonethat>dates me gets to squeeze in about a total of 4 unused hours a week -you>would think that should solve the fear of committment - hahahaha!!!>>>>>To send an email to - >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.