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I have an extremely hard time when people don't wash their hands after they use

the bathroom in my home. Even if they don't wash their hands elsewhere, I think

it's absolutely inconsiderate ( & gross) not to in someone else's home.

Especially because there's a young child in the house.

 

I had a sign up for a while in our downstairs bathroom that said " Please wash

your hands " - I actually put it up as a reminder for my daughter (it had a

rubber duck on it, a bar of soap & bubbles), but thought it might also work for

guests (without being offensive). I recently took it down after a comment from

my mother-in-law (whom I love dearly, but even *she* doesn't wash her hands!!) -

I guess she thought it was rude.

 

Does anyone have any suggestions that may not come across as offensive? I'd

greatly appreciate some tips.

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

Sheree

 

" Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time to

reform " - Mark Twain

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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To be perfectly honest, and I try to say this in the nicest possible

way, it really shouldn't be your concern. Pee is sterile. If

someone choses not to wash his/her hands, that shouldn't be your problem.

 

I couldn't figure out a way to say it so it didn't sound rude. I

apologize if anyone was offended.

 

-yvette

 

At 01:56 PM 10/21/2005, you wrote:

>I have an extremely hard time when people don't wash their hands

>after they use the bathroom in my home. Even if they don't wash

>their hands elsewhere, I think it's absolutely inconsiderate ( &

>gross) not to in someone else's home. Especially because there's a

>young child in the house.

>

>I had a sign up for a while in our downstairs bathroom that said

> " Please wash your hands " - I actually put it up as a reminder for my

>daughter (it had a rubber duck on it, a bar of soap & bubbles), but

>thought it might also work for guests (without being offensive). I

>recently took it down after a comment from my mother-in-law (whom I

>love dearly, but even *she* doesn't wash her hands!!) - I guess she

>thought it was rude.

>

>Does anyone have any suggestions that may not come across as

>offensive? I'd greatly appreciate some tips.

>

>Thanks.

>

>

>

>Sheree

>

> " Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is

>time to reform " - Mark Twain

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FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.

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namaste yvette....yes, in our perfect little bodies is the world's greatest

distiller....the kidney's one million and a half nephrons can't be

wrong.........silver eagle

-

yvette Soler

RawSeattle

Friday, October 21, 2005 2:18 PM

Re: [RawSeattle] OT: Handwashing

 

 

To be perfectly honest, and I try to say this in the nicest possible

way, it really shouldn't be your concern. Pee is sterile. If

someone choses not to wash his/her hands, that shouldn't be your problem.

 

I couldn't figure out a way to say it so it didn't sound rude. I

apologize if anyone was offended.

 

-yvette

 

At 01:56 PM 10/21/2005, you wrote:

>I have an extremely hard time when people don't wash their hands

>after they use the bathroom in my home. Even if they don't wash

>their hands elsewhere, I think it's absolutely inconsiderate ( &

>gross) not to in someone else's home. Especially because there's a

>young child in the house.

>

>I had a sign up for a while in our downstairs bathroom that said

> " Please wash your hands " - I actually put it up as a reminder for my

>daughter (it had a rubber duck on it, a bar of soap & bubbles), but

>thought it might also work for guests (without being offensive). I

>recently took it down after a comment from my mother-in-law (whom I

>love dearly, but even *she* doesn't wash her hands!!) - I guess she

>thought it was rude.

>

>Does anyone have any suggestions that may not come across as

>offensive? I'd greatly appreciate some tips.

>

>Thanks.

>

>

>

>Sheree

>

> " Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is

>time to reform " - Mark Twain

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> FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.

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Thanks Yvette, I was trying to come up with the same words. If you've been

reading what is said here we should not have to worry about washing hands

and " germs " .

 

Shari

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Well, actually, mine are but that's a different story. Plus, the

more offensive of the body's two major waste products isn't cleansed

by the kidneys, if you get my drift...

 

 

 

> namaste yvette....yes, in our perfect little bodies is the world's

> greatest distiller....the kidney's one million and a half nephrons

> can't be wrong.........silver eagle

> -

> yvette Soler

> RawSeattle

> Friday, October 21, 2005 2:18 PM

> Re: [RawSeattle] OT: Handwashing

>

>

> To be perfectly honest, and I try to say this in the nicest possible

> way, it really shouldn't be your concern. Pee is sterile. If

> someone choses not to wash his/her hands, that shouldn't be your

> problem.

>

> I couldn't figure out a way to say it so it didn't sound rude. I

> apologize if anyone was offended.

>

> -yvette

>

> At 01:56 PM 10/21/2005, you wrote:

>

>> I have an extremely hard time when people don't wash their hands

>> after they use the bathroom in my home. Even if they don't wash

>> their hands elsewhere, I think it's absolutely inconsiderate ( &

>> gross) not to in someone else's home. Especially because there's a

>> young child in the house.

>>

>> I had a sign up for a while in our downstairs bathroom that said

>> " Please wash your hands " - I actually put it up as a reminder for my

>> daughter (it had a rubber duck on it, a bar of soap & bubbles), but

>> thought it might also work for guests (without being offensive). I

>> recently took it down after a comment from my mother-in-law (whom I

>> love dearly, but even *she* doesn't wash her hands!!) - I guess she

>> thought it was rude.

>>

>> Does anyone have any suggestions that may not come across as

>> offensive? I'd greatly appreciate some tips.

>>

>> Thanks.

>>

>>

>>

>> Sheree

>>

>> " Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is

>> time to reform " - Mark Twain

>>

>>

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>>

>>

>>

>> FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.

>>

>>

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Hi,

 

If I'm at work handling food I ALWAYS wash my hands but anywhere

else - NEVER....

I'm a gardener and can never quite get the garden out from under

my fingernails -

I consider OK too !!

Does anyone know for sure??

 

Toni

 

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Hi Sheree,

Well, since germ phobia is most assuredly a majority position, you might

consider taking Mr. Twain's suggestion. Couldn't resist the irony

there. :) It's difficult to accept, I know, but the truth is that

hand-washing does nothing to 'prevent' sickness and in fact only

irritates the skin, especially if cleansers or soap are used. My hands

never touch water unless I'm swimming, showering, or rinsing produce or

dishes, and I'm never sick. There's nothing to fear but fear itself, as

they say, especially with regard to our friends, bacteria. We've had

some good discussions on this topic on the RawSchool list. If you're

interested, you could check out the archives.

Smiles,

Nora

www.RawSchool.com

 

 

 

Sheree

" Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time

to reform " - Mark Twain

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Okay, so now I'm a germaphobe.......my main concern from the beginning was that

is grosses me out. I never get sick either, so obviously I'm taking care of my

body quite well. I suppose I've been eating food for a very long time that

people with pee and poop hands have touched, so I must be doing something right.

Very cute comment on " Mr. Twain " by the way. I just don't think there's anything

wrong with expecting people to wash their hands in my home. I really didn't

expect this reaction.

 

Nora Lenz <nmlenz wrote:

Hi Sheree,

Well, since germ phobia is most assuredly a majority position, you might

consider taking Mr. Twain's suggestion. Couldn't resist the irony

there. :) It's difficult to accept, I know, but the truth is that

hand-washing does nothing to 'prevent' sickness and in fact only

irritates the skin, especially if cleansers or soap are used. My hands

never touch water unless I'm swimming, showering, or rinsing produce or

dishes, and I'm never sick. There's nothing to fear but fear itself, as

they say, especially with regard to our friends, bacteria. We've had

some good discussions on this topic on the RawSchool list. If you're

interested, you could check out the archives.

Smiles,

Nora

www.RawSchool.com

 

 

 

Sheree

" Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time

to reform " - Mark Twain

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Hi Richard,

I hope you stay on this list! I've enjoyed your friendly and

respectful way of sharing information. And I value the experience and

rationality you've brought to a controversial (in the raw food world)

topic.

Keep up the good work and keep being an example that healthful eating

and factual knowledge need not be at odds.

Best,

Gael

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Yeah, this whole thing is reminding me of people who are claiming that the

holocaust was a hoax. (among other things) People will get so high and

mighty about the most bizarre stuff. I'm just sorry that it had to happen

here. It makes me feel embarrassed to look here for valid information. Oh

well. I guess it's the price you pay for following a path that is so " out

there. "

 

~Suzanne

 

 

 

We don't see things as they are;

we see things as WE are.

 

 

 

 

----Original Message Follows----

" Sea Orca " <seaorca

RawSeattle

<RawSeattle >

Re: [RawSeattle] OT: Handwashing/Nora

Sat, 22 Oct 2005 19:36:23 -0700

 

/Nora

 

 

<<<I will guarantee you that if I give you a dose of E.coli 0157:H7 you

will become ill from it infecting your gut. Also Shigella,

Campylobacter, Salmonella

 

>Richard,

>People who have invested enough of their time and energy in learning the

>fancy names that are attached to all the various bacteria are not

>generally willing to openly re-examine the germ theory, unfortunately.

Ah, so in other words, those who bother to learn the names of organisms

are somehow unqualified to talk about it. So, if you learn the name of

daisy, rose, oak, then you are unwilling to examine the study of plants. Or

if you learn the name of whale, moose, human, you are unwilling to examine

the study of mammals? Perhaps those willing to learn the names of these

creatures are the more interested? Just as with bacteria.

 

 

>And if there's one thing a truthful conclusion on this topic requires,

it's an open and receptive mind.

 

Indeed. Yet you seem to be willing to ignore virtually all the published

and recognized studies of bacteria to perpetuate some sort of pet theory.

 

>All human bodies host bacteria, even the ones you mention.

 

Untrue. All human host bacteria, yet the ones I mention are only found in

humans with acute illness. The exceptions are those who become carriers for

certain types of Salmonella. They no longer exhibit symptoms of

Salmonellosis but still actively excrete the organism. There are no

documented carrier states for Campylobacter that I am aware of, and most

people don't carry Shigellae.

 

>That's why

>when people present to a doctor with symptoms and the doctor goes

>looking for the little varmint, s/he usually finds it.

 

Untrue. As someone who has examined thousands of stool samples, the only

ones in which I found Shigella, Camplyobacter, or Salmonella were those who

were actively sick with the illness. Many of the other folks with diarrhea

were sick with giardia. These organisms are virtually NEVER found in health

people. Sorry, it just isn't so! Please document your assertions that most

people have these!

 

>The presence of

>the bacteria does not prove a causal connection to the symptoms,

>however.

 

Sorry to have to educate you in microbiology, but the presence of a known

pathogenic organism in a human in the presence of symptoms which it has been

proven to cause, and it's absence in a human after these symptom abate is

good proof. All of these organisms have been proven to be pathogenic by

Koch's postulates:

a.. The bacteria must be present in every case of the disease.

b.. The bacteria must be isolated from the host with the disease and

grown in pure culture.

c.. The specific disease must be reproduced when a pure culture of the

bacteria is inoculated into a healthy susceptible host.

d.. The bacteria must be recoverable from the experimentally infected

host.

This is clearly the case for all the bacteria I have mentioned. For

Salmonella, Shigella, Camplyobacter, Vibrato cholera, etc (sorry to have to

mention specific names again, it appears that you do not like that) it is

true and has been proven over and over for a few hundred years. Again, I

tell you that if I give you a pure culture of E.coli o157:H7 and you drink

it in raw juice, you WILL become ill.

 

<<<A couple hundred years of microbiology isn't wrong.

 

>Naturally I'm not proposing that microbiology is wrong in all its

>conclusions. Only those that are based on the improvable idea that

>bacteria cause disease.

 

Germ theory is quite well proven, thanks.

 

> It actually doesn't take much looking to

>scover lots of mistaken ideas in the past that were accepted by almost

>veryone, including the 'experts', and for very long periods of time.

>hen the people who are in the best position to discover the truth are

>he least willing to search it out, false ideas can reign almost

>ndefinitely.

This is a silly statement. Anyone who has any understanding of science

realizes that theories of the past will be improved upon or discarded in the

future based upon evidence. The newest methods of biological science,

molecular biology, support the germ theory completely for all of the

instances that I have cited. There is not one single whit of evidence to

support your claims, thus you then try to cast doubt upon the characters of

those who try to learn the truth. You cite nothing to support your

statements. Nor can you, for there are no studies to support them. You make

strange assumptions about people and insulting assumptions about science. I

would ask you, what criteria do you use to determine what you accept as

true? You remind me much of those who jailed Galileo because his " Science "

ran against the " true religion " of those who just knew it was true (but

without proof). Science runs against your " true religion " so how do you

respond but to make strange claims against those whose spend their lives

studying the very organisms which you can't even name. You cite nothing to

prove that any of the claims of modern bacteriological science are false.

 

>Thanks for the discussion. I'd welcome further debate but I'd suggest

>doing it on the RawSchool list, where there are others who could

>contribute besides myself and lots of people who would benefit from the

>discourse.

>Regards,

>Nora

 

Wow, if this goes on over there, then I guess I'd better post there too!

 

 

 

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There was a time when I sided with the mainstream and thought of eating

raw food as extreme or radical. If I'd stayed in that place, I'd have

missed all the benefits that doing otherwise has brought. Sure, there

are some ideas that don't even merit examination but sometimes the only

way we can tell is if we try them on for size. That's nothing to be

embarrassed about. It's actually a very smart thing to do. :)

Best wishes,

Nora

www.RawSchool.com

 

 

 

 

-

" Suzanne M. Burroughs " <dragonfire_smb

<RawSeattle >

Monday, October 24, 2005 8:00 PM

Re: [RawSeattle] OT: Handwashing

 

 

Yeah, this whole thing is reminding me of people who are claiming that

the

holocaust was a hoax. (among other things) People will get so high and

mighty about the most bizarre stuff. I'm just sorry that it had to

happen

here. It makes me feel embarrassed to look here for valid information.

Oh

well. I guess it's the price you pay for following a path that is so

" out

there. "

 

~Suzanne

 

 

 

We don't see things as they are;

we see things as WE are.

 

 

 

 

----Original Message Follows----

" Sea Orca " <seaorca

RawSeattle

<RawSeattle >

Re: [RawSeattle] OT: Handwashing/Nora

Sat, 22 Oct 2005 19:36:23 -0700

 

/Nora

 

 

<<<I will guarantee you that if I give you a dose of E.coli 0157:H7

you

will become ill from it infecting your gut. Also Shigella,

Campylobacter, Salmonella

 

>Richard,

>People who have invested enough of their time and energy in learning

the

>fancy names that are attached to all the various bacteria are not

>generally willing to openly re-examine the germ theory,

unfortunately.

Ah, so in other words, those who bother to learn the names of

organisms

are somehow unqualified to talk about it. So, if you learn the name of

daisy, rose, oak, then you are unwilling to examine the study of

plants. Or

if you learn the name of whale, moose, human, you are unwilling to

examine

the study of mammals? Perhaps those willing to learn the names of these

creatures are the more interested? Just as with bacteria.

 

 

>And if there's one thing a truthful conclusion on this topic

requires,

it's an open and receptive mind.

 

Indeed. Yet you seem to be willing to ignore virtually all the

published

and recognized studies of bacteria to perpetuate some sort of pet

theory.

 

>All human bodies host bacteria, even the ones you mention.

 

Untrue. All human host bacteria, yet the ones I mention are only

found in

humans with acute illness. The exceptions are those who become carriers

for

certain types of Salmonella. They no longer exhibit symptoms of

Salmonellosis but still actively excrete the organism. There are no

documented carrier states for Campylobacter that I am aware of, and most

people don't carry Shigellae.

 

>That's why

>when people present to a doctor with symptoms and the doctor goes

>looking for the little varmint, s/he usually finds it.

 

Untrue. As someone who has examined thousands of stool samples, the

only

ones in which I found Shigella, Camplyobacter, or Salmonella were those

who

were actively sick with the illness. Many of the other folks with

diarrhea

were sick with giardia. These organisms are virtually NEVER found in

health

people. Sorry, it just isn't so! Please document your assertions that

most

people have these!

 

>The presence of

>the bacteria does not prove a causal connection to the symptoms,

>however.

 

Sorry to have to educate you in microbiology, but the presence of a

known

pathogenic organism in a human in the presence of symptoms which it has

been

proven to cause, and it's absence in a human after these symptom abate

is

good proof. All of these organisms have been proven to be pathogenic by

Koch's postulates:

a.. The bacteria must be present in every case of the disease.

b.. The bacteria must be isolated from the host with the disease

and

grown in pure culture.

c.. The specific disease must be reproduced when a pure culture of

the

bacteria is inoculated into a healthy susceptible host.

d.. The bacteria must be recoverable from the experimentally

infected

host.

This is clearly the case for all the bacteria I have mentioned. For

Salmonella, Shigella, Camplyobacter, Vibrato cholera, etc (sorry to have

to

mention specific names again, it appears that you do not like that) it

is

true and has been proven over and over for a few hundred years. Again, I

tell you that if I give you a pure culture of E.coli o157:H7 and you

drink

it in raw juice, you WILL become ill.

 

<<<A couple hundred years of microbiology isn't wrong.

 

>Naturally I'm not proposing that microbiology is wrong in all its

>conclusions. Only those that are based on the improvable idea that

>bacteria cause disease.

 

Germ theory is quite well proven, thanks.

 

> It actually doesn't take much looking to

>scover lots of mistaken ideas in the past that were accepted by

almost

>veryone, including the 'experts', and for very long periods of time.

>hen the people who are in the best position to discover the truth

are

>he least willing to search it out, false ideas can reign almost

>ndefinitely.

This is a silly statement. Anyone who has any understanding of

science

realizes that theories of the past will be improved upon or discarded in

the

future based upon evidence. The newest methods of biological science,

molecular biology, support the germ theory completely for all of the

instances that I have cited. There is not one single whit of evidence

to

support your claims, thus you then try to cast doubt upon the characters

of

those who try to learn the truth. You cite nothing to support your

statements. Nor can you, for there are no studies to support them. You

make

strange assumptions about people and insulting assumptions about

science. I

would ask you, what criteria do you use to determine what you accept as

true? You remind me much of those who jailed Galileo because his

" Science "

ran against the " true religion " of those who just knew it was true (but

without proof). Science runs against your " true religion " so how do you

respond but to make strange claims against those whose spend their lives

studying the very organisms which you can't even name. You cite nothing

to

prove that any of the claims of modern bacteriological science are

false.

 

>Thanks for the discussion. I'd welcome further debate but I'd

suggest

>doing it on the RawSchool list, where there are others who could

>contribute besides myself and lots of people who would benefit from

the

>discourse.

>Regards,

>Nora

 

Wow, if this goes on over there, then I guess I'd better post there

too!

 

 

 

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Problem is, there hasn't been agreement on this list about which

ideas " don't even merit examination " and which ones should be " tried

on for size. "

Yet I haven't yet heard any anti germ-theory folks publicly volunteer

to take a dose of e coli, not get sick, and prove their point once

and for all.

Best,

Gael

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