Co-ops (was Reasons to go raw)

November 3, 2006

> or disguise your for-profit business as a " co-op " , then you're

> going to come off as an exploiter of fad dieters, giving the whole

> idea of not cooking food to death an aura of a fad diet rather than

> one based in reason and reality.

True co-ops are run by boards of directors, so it would be difficult to

actually be a personal business, especially when the co-op is compelled

by it's bylaws and subject to state and federal laws. While co-ops may

not be personal businesses, they do require the efforts of members,

often in paid positions. So, it is possible for people to earn a living

while supporting the co-op, even though it is not their own business.

As far as our local raw co-op goes, I appreciate the passion, planning,

and effort Tom has put into the NW Living Foods Co-op to provide raw

products to our community at discount prices.

Jeff

November 3, 2006

> As far as our local raw co-op goes, I appreciate the passion,

> planning,

> and effort Tom has put into the NW Living Foods Co-op to provide raw

> products to our community at discount prices.

If it's legit, why does the person running it refuse to answer

questions about where the high membership fees go?

November 3, 2006

>

>As far as our local raw co-op goes, I appreciate the passion, planning,

>and effort Tom has put into the NW Living Foods Co-op to provide raw

>products to our community at discount prices.

>

>Jeff

I know nothing about food co-ops in Seattle but I can tell you on our

house hunting trip to Bellingham, the food co-op downtown WAS TO DIE

FOR!!!! The organic produce was spectacular, much greater variety,

far superior quality to what I'm presently finding & they had organic

asian pears...YUM. It sealed the deal on the move to Bellingham imo

:-) we should be there in 90 days :-) yeah!!

rookielynn

November 3, 2006

>> As far as our local raw co-op goes, I appreciate the passion,

>> planning,

>> and effort Tom has put into the NW Living Foods Co-op to provide raw

>> products to our community at discount prices.

>>

>> Jeff

>

> I know nothing about food co-ops in Seattle but I can tell you on our

> house hunting trip to Bellingham, the food co-op downtown WAS TO DIE

> FOR!!!! The organic produce was spectacular, much greater variety,

> far superior quality to what I'm presently finding & they had organic

> asian pears...YUM. It sealed the deal on the move to Bellingham imo

> :-) we should be there in 90 days :-) yeah!!

I shop at PCC all the time and have enjoyed the Skagit one in Mt.

Vernon too. They aren't what I was writing about.

>

> rookielynn

>

> Visit the Seattle Raw Foods Community: http://rawseattle.org

>

November 4, 2006

Anthony,

I know that by dignifying your ranting and raving I'm putting myself at your

level but, for the sake of truth, the raw community and the co-op I'm going

to respond to you thusly:

It's impossible to refuse to answer a question if it's never been asked.

You've never asked me where the membership fees go (but then again you've

never been to any co-op meetings or read the by laws to find out either).

You've only, in your usual caustic and vitriolic way, made demands:

" Please stop calling your for-profit business a co-op " (personal email - Oct

11)

and insinuations:

" If your only involvement in the community is to...disguise your for-profit

business as a " co-op " , then you're going to come off as an exploiter of fad

dieters, giving the whole idea of not cooking food to death an aura of a fad

diet rather than one based in reason and reality. " (Raw Seattle post, Nov 1)

Since you seem to be co-op " challenged " , here's some co-op 101:

According to Jill Stevenson of the National Co-op Business Association (of

which our co-op is a member), the vast majority of co-ops are either not for

profit (minimizing profit by charging less " at the check out counter " , such

as most credit union co-ops and electrical utility co-ops) or for profit

co-ops (maximizing profits for members and then returning a portion of those

profits at the end of the year in the form of dividends such as most food

and agricultural co-ops). It's basically a matter of semantics whichever way

you look at it - for profit, not for profit, non profit - they are all about

maximizing the benefits of being a member. NW Living Foods Co-op's board of

directors chose the not for profit model (and are still considering filing

for non profit status), choosing to charge only 10% over cost, basically

giving members their dividend (20% - 50% off retail) at the time of

purchase, as well as charging a membership fee to help cover the cost of

running a co-op. The costs of running a co-op (or any business for that

matter) are pretty much the same regardless of which model you choose to

follow. All co-ops tend to have some paid employees running the co-op and

sometimes volunteers helping support, sometimes in exchange for co-op

product or services. Co-ops have all the same business expenses to meet

(bookkeeping, legal, taxes, phone, etc) as non co-ops, including salaries

for employees. Literally, bottom line, if any business can't cover its

expenses it can't keep the doors open. End of lesson.

I explained in my off line reply to you after your first " attack " , but you

apparently couldn't understand the " reason and reality " of the math, so I'll

try again.

In the 19 months that the co-op has been in existence, I've put in

(conservatively) 40 hours a month (760 hours) and have been paid a total of

$1000. That works out to $1.32/hr.

When you factor out the (very conservatively) $500 in cell phone usage

overages, printer cartridges, phone calls not charged for, uncharged

shipping, gas for delivery, etc paid for personally, that brings it down to

$.66/hr. Then you consider that minimum wage is $8.25/hr (?) and the board

authorized a $20/hr wage (a dramatic reduction from my " day job " ). Then you

factor in the cost of incorporating, data entry done in exchange for a

VitaMix, product sorting done in exchange for product, invoicing done in

exchange for product cost, bookkeeping expenses, web site development fees,

the list goes on and on, it's not hard to see how the approximately $1000 in

membership fees and the 10% over cost collected disappears in a hurry. This

doesn't even consider the phone and computer hook ups provided free from our

house, the use of 400 sq ft of our house for most of the month, wear and

tear on my vehicle, etc. As a matter of speculation, it's probably fair to

say that I personally have been subsidizing co-op member's raw purchases.

Make what you will of that, maybe because of wanting to give back to the

community that helped my wife heal her cancer, maybe because of my personal

finances I was fortunate enough to not have to be worried about earning a

fair salary while helping get the co-op " off the ground " , maybe it's just my

crazy passionate nature, maybe I'm just a bad business person, whatever, I

find it hard to fathom how anyone could call this a for profit business. And

I asked you before and I'll ask you again, what is your problem with people

saving 20% - 50% off retail and having a local place to get raw product?

You mention this as my only involvement in the community (as if this wasn't

enough in itself)? Maybe you should up your Ginko Biloba intake so you get

your memory back. Aside from running the co-op basically for free, you must

have forgotten about the almost monthly pot lucks we (my wife, Susan and I)

have been holding for 40 - 60 people for the last year and a half (many of

which you attended) to create a safe environment (unlike the one you create

when you 'crucify' a newcomer for asking questions on the website) for

people to get together and share the raw experience or the speakers the

co-op has brought in to share real information instead of the sarcastic, and

many times offensive version you dispense from behind the safe anonymity of

your computer screen instead of coming out from the sidelines and actually

contributing something other than destructive diatribes to the community

website (your treatment of " Reasons to Go Raw " the other day was shameful

and a discredit to the raw website as are a lot of your attacks. People come

to the site for help and support, not to be castigated.)

Anyway, hopes this all helps with your understanding of the nature of co-op

and the actual status of NW Living Foods Co-op. Have a great day!

Yours Truly,

Tom Armstrong

President

NW Living Foods Co-op

_____

RawSeattle [RawSeattle ] On

Behalf Of Anthony D'Atri

Friday, November 03, 2006 10:36 AM

RawSeattle

Re: [RawSeattle] Co-ops (was Reasons to go raw)

> As far as our local raw co-op goes, I appreciate the passion,

> planning,

> and effort Tom has put into the NW Living Foods Co-op to provide raw

> products to our community at discount prices.

If it's legit, why does the person running it refuse to answer

questions about where the high membership fees go?

November 4, 2006

Thanks Tom for setting things into perspective. I, personally, do not

have the time to read even a tenth of what is posted here and even less

time to respond. However I like to think that I am still pretty involved

in the raw/living/lifefood community, by helping people get thru their

health challenges with the assistance of live nutrition - and

supplements and weeding thru research on many levels. And it may look

from my rates that I make a lot of profit, however, the things involved

that needs to be done that does not produce revenue is vast. So I fully

understand the effort you, Tom, have put into getting this co-op off the

ground and save people a lot from what I would need to charge people -

you are doing a big service.

Where Anthony gets the time to be so " involved " in this community is a

mystery to me, and frankly I could care less how he spends his time. It

irks me though when anyone's time is spent in efforts to disturb peace

in ANY community, even a virtual one as this.

Peace be with you all - I look forward to meeting many of you at the

potluck this weekend,

Yashpal

Christopher Yashpal Jayne, ND

Naturopathic & Homeopathic Physician

1044 Water St #206

Port Townsend, Wash 98368

www.yashpal.com

Office: 360-385-3551

Fax/Msg: 877-860-5110

RawSeattle [RawSeattle ] On

Behalf Of Tom Armstrong

Friday, November 03, 2006 10:02 PM

RawSeattle

[Norton AntiSpam] RE: [RawSeattle] Co-ops (was Reasons to go

raw)

Anthony,

I know that by dignifying your ranting and raving I'm putting myself at

your

level but, for the sake of truth, the raw community and the co-op I'm

going

to respond to you thusly:

It's impossible to refuse to answer a question if it's never been asked.

You've never asked me where the membership fees go (but then again

you've

never been to any co-op meetings or read the by laws to find out

either).

You've only, in your usual caustic and vitriolic way, made demands:

" Please stop calling your for-profit business a co-op " (personal email -

Oct

11)

and insinuations:

" If your only involvement in the community is to...disguise your

for-profit

business as a " co-op " , then you're going to come off as an exploiter of

fad

dieters, giving the whole idea of not cooking food to death an aura of a

fad

diet rather than one based in reason and reality. " (Raw Seattle post,

Nov 1)

Since you seem to be co-op " challenged " , here's some co-op 101:

According to Jill Stevenson of the National Co-op Business Association

(of

which our co-op is a member), the vast majority of co-ops are either not

for

profit (minimizing profit by charging less " at the check out counter " ,

such

as most credit union co-ops and electrical utility co-ops) or for profit

co-ops (maximizing profits for members and then returning a portion of

those

profits at the end of the year in the form of dividends such as most

food

and agricultural co-ops). It's basically a matter of semantics whichever

way

you look at it - for profit, not for profit, non profit - they are all

about

maximizing the benefits of being a member. NW Living Foods Co-op's board

of

directors chose the not for profit model (and are still considering

filing

for non profit status), choosing to charge only 10% over cost, basically

giving members their dividend (20% - 50% off retail) at the time of

purchase, as well as charging a membership fee to help cover the cost of

running a co-op. The costs of running a co-op (or any business for that

matter) are pretty much the same regardless of which model you choose to

follow. All co-ops tend to have some paid employees running the co-op

and

sometimes volunteers helping support, sometimes in exchange for co-op

product or services. Co-ops have all the same business expenses to meet

(bookkeeping, legal, taxes, phone, etc) as non co-ops, including

salaries

for employees. Literally, bottom line, if any business can't cover its

expenses it can't keep the doors open. End of lesson.

I explained in my off line reply to you after your first " attack " , but

you

apparently couldn't understand the " reason and reality " of the math, so

I'll

try again.

In the 19 months that the co-op has been in existence, I've put in

(conservatively) 40 hours a month (760 hours) and have been paid a total

of

$1000. That works out to $1.32/hr.

When you factor out the (very conservatively) $500 in cell phone usage

overages, printer cartridges, phone calls not charged for, uncharged

shipping, gas for delivery, etc paid for personally, that brings it down

to

$.66/hr. Then you consider that minimum wage is $8.25/hr (?) and the

board

authorized a $20/hr wage (a dramatic reduction from my " day job " ). Then

you

factor in the cost of incorporating, data entry done in exchange for a

VitaMix, product sorting done in exchange for product, invoicing done in

exchange for product cost, bookkeeping expenses, web site development

fees,

the list goes on and on, it's not hard to see how the approximately

$1000 in

membership fees and the 10% over cost collected disappears in a hurry.

This

doesn't even consider the phone and computer hook ups provided free from

our

house, the use of 400 sq ft of our house for most of the month, wear and

tear on my vehicle, etc. As a matter of speculation, it's probably fair

to

say that I personally have been subsidizing co-op member's raw

purchases.

Make what you will of that, maybe because of wanting to give back to the

community that helped my wife heal her cancer, maybe because of my

personal

finances I was fortunate enough to not have to be worried about earning

a

fair salary while helping get the co-op " off the ground " , maybe it's

just my

crazy passionate nature, maybe I'm just a bad business person, whatever,

I

find it hard to fathom how anyone could call this a for profit business.

And

I asked you before and I'll ask you again, what is your problem with

people

saving 20% - 50% off retail and having a local place to get raw product?

You mention this as my only involvement in the community (as if this

wasn't

enough in itself)? Maybe you should up your Ginko Biloba intake so you

get

your memory back. Aside from running the co-op basically for free, you

must

have forgotten about the almost monthly pot lucks we (my wife, Susan and

I)

have been holding for 40 - 60 people for the last year and a half (many

of

which you attended) to create a safe environment (unlike the one you

create

when you 'crucify' a newcomer for asking questions on the website) for

people to get together and share the raw experience or the speakers the

co-op has brought in to share real information instead of the sarcastic,

and

many times offensive version you dispense from behind the safe anonymity

of

your computer screen instead of coming out from the sidelines and

actually

contributing something other than destructive diatribes to the community

website (your treatment of " Reasons to Go Raw " the other day was

shameful

and a discredit to the raw website as are a lot of your attacks. People

come

to the site for help and support, not to be castigated.)

Anyway, hopes this all helps with your understanding of the nature of

co-op

and the actual status of NW Living Foods Co-op. Have a great day!

Yours Truly,

Tom Armstrong

President

NW Living Foods Co-op

_____

RawSeattle@gro <RawSeattle%40> ups.com

[RawSeattle@gro <RawSeattle%40>

ups.com] On

Behalf Of Anthony D'Atri

Friday, November 03, 2006 10:36 AM

RawSeattle@gro <RawSeattle%40> ups.com

Re: [RawSeattle] Co-ops (was Reasons to go raw)

> As far as our local raw co-op goes, I appreciate the passion,

> planning,

> and effort Tom has put into the NW Living Foods Co-op to provide raw

> products to our community at discount prices.

If it's legit, why does the person running it refuse to answer

questions about where the high membership fees go?

November 4, 2006

Thank you Tom.

To Jeff, moderator:

I'd like to know why a person like this Anthony is still allowed on

this list. I am, frankly, tired of reading his sarcastic replies to

member postings. It is a complete turn-off and he obviously has way

too much time on his hands. His remarks do not serve anyone.

Regards -C

November 4, 2006

Thank you Tom & Yashpal. What always baffles me is why does it bother folks so

much for anyone to " make " money or make a living off raw foods?! We don't

complain to our plumbers, mechanics, teachers, salesclerks, massage therapists,

etc... Why is it considered a negative thing to make a living from

selling/teaching living foods? It's a job just like any other, just very

specialized.

Tom - does the co-op have a website for membership and/or product information?

Or do you have something you can send me? I would appreciate it. I have not

been very consistent about buying and I did not even know a membership fee

existed, but would be more than happy to join. I belong to PCC, Sno-Isle,

Skagit and Bellingham co-ops. And yes, I PAID for every membership, I do not

use just one card for all co-ops. I believe in supporting these endeavors.

And thank you Yashpal for contributing here. While I have not met you

personally I have heard wonderful things about you and your methods of helping

people achieve their health goals.

" Infinite love is the only truth, the rest is illusion. " -- David Icke

Peacefully - Shari Viger

November 4, 2006

> To Jeff, moderator:

> I'd like to know why a person like this Anthony is still allowed on

> this list. I am, frankly, tired of reading his sarcastic replies to

> member postings. It is a complete turn-off and he obviously has way

> too much time on his hands. His remarks do not serve anyone.

Christy,

Thank you for your note. Many of us are not fond of sarcasm and

condescending comments. There are far better ways of communication,

IMO. It is even mentioned in the posting etiquette guidelines for this

(RawSeattle) list:

Please share your feelings and opinions while honoring and respecting

those of others. Please do not attack the character of others when they

believe differently. Please also keep language appropriate for a

family list, so we may continue appealing to a broader audience.

Please, no condescending, sarcasm, or name-calling. Our members

should feel welcome to post here.

Unfortunately, sarcasm and condescension continue to creep into our

discussions, including your own post, as well as Tom's, etc. (although

not to the same extent as others.) I would much rather have the

" truth " , unclouded by sarcasm, condescension, and name-calling, etc.

I'm sure many of our members feel the same way.

Re: Anthony's posts - he does, occasionally, make good points (and,

yes, may serve some people), though his methods may not be appreciated

by everyone. His recent post " Reasons to go raw " was probably

inappropriate. His points could have been made in a different way. I

believe points should be made in a way that they are welcomed. In that

way, they are received better and more likely to make a difference. If

there is condescending language, etc. they seem (IMO) to come from

personal issues, anger, etc. (or simply an individual's preference of

communicating?) and are more likely to be ignored by readers. What is

the point, then, of making such posts? It may be that some people

actually receive the information better that way. I just know I do not

and such posts are not welcome here.

Everyone: (including Anthony) Please honor the guidelines of this list

(RawSeattle, then click on

" Posting Etiquette.txt " ) We may all have individual methods and

preferences of communicating, but in a community setting, such as this

list, where there are hundreds of different personalities, let's use

some standard methods of communication and keep things civil.

BTW, I do appreciate the humor that sometimes shows up within sarcasm.

Everyone: your humor is welcome here, just please keep the

condescending attitudes and sarcasm out please!

As to why Anthony is still on this list - He, like many of us, is (IMO)

searching for truth like the rest of us. He is vegan and is interested

in raw foods. He is part of this community, goes to potlucks, offers

his insights in discussions (at potlucks and on this list), etc. etc.

He occasionally makes me think! He also, occasionally, makes me smile!

A gift I admire.

Jeff

November 4, 2006

Hi Shari,

Yes, the website for product info & ordering (and membership fees - $25.00)

is www.nwlivingfoodscoop.org/products. Also, I know you're an " early to

bedder " , but you should make an exception and try to make it down for the

Grand Opening at the pot luck tonight, it'll be fun. Take care.

Tom

_____

RawSeattle [RawSeattle ] On

Behalf Of SV

Saturday, November 04, 2006 6:20 AM

RawSeattle

Re: RE: [RawSeattle] Co-ops (was Reasons to go raw)

Thank you Tom & Yashpal. What always baffles me is why does it bother folks

so much for anyone to " make " money or make a living off raw foods?! We don't

complain to our plumbers, mechanics, teachers, salesclerks, massage

therapists, etc... Why is it considered a negative thing to make a living

from selling/teaching living foods? It's a job just like any other, just

very specialized.

Tom - does the co-op have a website for membership and/or product

information? Or do you have something you can send me? I would appreciate

it. I have not been very consistent about buying and I did not even know a

membership fee existed, but would be more than happy to join. I belong to

PCC, Sno-Isle, Skagit and Bellingham co-ops. And yes, I PAID for every

membership, I do not use just one card for all co-ops. I believe in

supporting these endeavors.

And thank you Yashpal for contributing here. While I have not met you

personally I have heard wonderful things about you and your methods of

helping people achieve their health goals.

" Infinite love is the only truth, the rest is illusion. " -- David Icke

Peacefully - Shari Viger

November 4, 2006

Thanks Tom. I will check out the website. I have a standing engagement the

first Saturday of November & the same in May with my girl cousins in Ballard.

They are probably the FARTHEST people I know from raw!

Hope you have a great turnout!!

Shari

November 5, 2006

Bravo, Tom! I have been silently looking on and biting my tongue, but such

responses/remarks as the one you are addressing make me cringe, and also sad

that new raw foodists may be subjected to such negative diatribe. Let's be kind,

compassionate, grateful and at the least, civil. Asya

Tom Armstrong <tom.armstrong wrote: