Defending Vegetarian Diets Against the Omnivore Concern (long)

[Guest guest]

While I am actually not a vegetarian these days, I have spend much of my

life playing with it and this means that I sometimes get drawn into

conversations about the healthfulness or otherwise of a vegetarian or vegan

diet. This has happened to me again and I thought that people here might be

interested in some of what I have said (and may be able to put it to good

use).

 

The person with whom I am discussing the issue maintains that ' ...we need

the nine essential amino acids (there are 22 amino acids), which the body

DOES NOT produce. We can get these by eating plant proteins (soybeans, nuts,

spinach etc.) BUT we also need animal proteins ( eggs, milk, fish, red

meat). It's important to know that though your diet may have a variety of

non-animal protein foods, it has been found that much of these plant

proteins need animal proteins to be efficiently absorbed. So vegetarians

must take this into account when planning their menus.'

 

This has been my response so far:

 

It is not true that vegetable proteins need animal proteins to be absorbed.

What is true is that the amino acids which make up protein are not all

present in all vegetable sources (or all animal sources, either, btw). For

this, some combination of different vegetable sources has been advised, but

even that advice is now being seen as unnecessary. As long as one eats a

balanced vegetarian or vegan (but a vegan diet does take more work to get

right) diet, one will be getting enough protein.

 

'Obtaining adequate protein on a vegan diet is not a problem. Nuts & seeds,

pulses, wholegrain and grain products and soya products all supply protein.

Previously, it has been thought that plant proteins are of a lower quality

than animal proteins in terms of their essential amino acid content.

However, this is no longer regarded as a problem and eating a balanced diet

of plant foods will provide all the essential amino acids in adequate

amounts.'

 

'Human beings can thrive on a variety of protein sources. You can eat

animal-based proteins, vegetarian proteins, or a combination of the two, and

be just fine.'

 

'Children who are put on vegetarian diets that contain no animal products

can and do do well, but much care must be paid to their diet to be sure they

get enough protein, fat, calcium and iron.'

 

I have read nothing to suggest that animal proteins are necessary to absorb

plant proteins and I believe that the source you cited has confused the

issues a little. I suspect that they may have taken on board the idea of

combining foods, have seen books like Diet for a Small Planet in which eggs,

milk, and cheese are used in combination with other foods, and have

concluded that the animal proteins are necessary for plant protein

absorption. However, they are not required.

 

The only protein " problem " is that not all foods which contain protein have

the right amounts of the various amino acids to form a complete protein.

This can be solved by combining different foods with different amino acid

profiles at the same meal, or, according to more recent thought, during the

course of a day - rather like a jigsaw puzzle.

 

'What about vegetarians who may eschew animal products? How are they able

to grow and maintain human tissues on a diet of plant proteins only? By

eating a combination of plant proteins. For example, bean proteins are

incomplete proteins, lacking the amino acid methionine, while corn, also

incomplete, lacks lysine. But by eating beans together with a corn

tortilla, the body receives all nine essential amino acids in this plant

protein mix. Researchers used to think vegetarians had to eat these

complimentary proteins together at the same meal. Now they realize that

eating them within a 24-hour period works just as well.'

 

'Research now suggests that complementary proteins (legumes and grains,

grains and nuts, or legumes and nuts) do not need to be consumed at the same

meal. Intake of a variety of foods over the course of a day should provide

adequate protein.'

 

A perfect example of this protein jigsaw is in a peanut butter sandwich.

The peanuts and the bread match each other nicely and increase the amount of

protein available to the body.

 

'A good example of combining the protein in plant foods to get a proper mix

of the essential amino acids is mixing legumes (dried beans) and rice.

Another combination is peanut butter and whole wheat (this is one reason so

many kids can survive on peanut butter sandwiches.). What peanut butter

doesn't have, the wheat does, and vice versa.'

 

Once that is done, there is nothing about eating animal protein which makes

the protein more accessible to the human body. I have done a lot of reading

on the subject (having spent much of my life playing with vegetarianism and

also having an interest in research for its own sake) and I have _never_

before heard the claim that some animal protein is needed to properly absorb

plant proteins. The closest I have ever come to that is the protein

combination I mentioned earlier. Eggs, cheese, milk, and so on can be

useful in that combination but they are not essential.

 

The problems lie not in protein but in iron, B12, and calcium. For

children, calorie content can also be a problem, as the dietician I cited

earlier says, recommending that foods like eggs and milk not be removed from

their diet until their stomachs are big enough to handle the amount of food

needed to meet their calorie requirements. 'Young children often have a

hard time eating the volume necessary to get their required calories from a

strictly plant diet ... When they are older and have bigger stomachs that

can hold the bulkier diet of a stricter vegetarian diet, that would be a

better time to eliminate the eggs, and if you must, the milk. Continue with

the vitamin supplements as an insurance.'

 

Lee-Gwen

 

http://www.globalgourmet.com/food/dietsite/0999/

http://www.ivillage.com/food/experts/nutrition/qas/0,11749,540496_1762,00.ht

ml

http://www.maxsportsmag.com/science/issue20/20s1.htm

http://www.aeawave.com/onlinesteph2.htm

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/vegan-nutrition.html

[Guest guest]

You are quite welcome! May I suggest Diet for a Small Planet to you? The

author now believes that she overstated the necessity for protein and, as I

said, it is also now known that these complementing foods can be eaten

within a 24 hour period rather than at the same meal, but the information is

still fascinating and there are quite interesting charts for reference.

 

Lee-Gwen

[Guest guest]

> Btw, while it might not be

> necessary to combine vegetable proteins at the same meal, it sure does

> make life easier if one does it as often as possible

 

Well, yes, there is certainly that!

 

> Anyone who says that vegans and vegetarians cannot be eating a healthy

> diet is just uninformed.

 

*grin* Basically what I am saying, although I am being nice about it!

Honestly, I am having fun with this one - for the moment. So far, he has

thrown the " but anyway they need supplements so it can't be healthy "

argument (oh, I asked, so all those supplements at the chemist are just for

vegetarians then? *laugh*) and now he has said that my sources were biased

..... nope! I was _very_ careful about that because I knew what his response

would be.

 

As for why people think they have any real right to query vegetarian diets,

I guess they think that vegetarians are putting their lives in danger but I

don't get why that is something with which they need to concern themselves.

 

Ah well

 

Lee-Gwen

[Guest guest]

> Strikes me that your sources are impeccable ;=)

 

*grin* I thought so. Trust me, I was _very_ careful not to go for sites

which had names like vegetoday.com or whatever. As it was, none of my

sources were vegetarian specific, one was a nutritionist, and another was a

person with degrees in nutrition who has taught courses about it for 10

years. None said anything scathing about meat eaters or meat diets. That

argument just didn't fly!

 

Again, thanks. Btw, do

> you have useful info at your fingertips (I can do some research if not)

> about how much brewers' yeast, tempeh, seaweed, or whatever is enough

> for daily intake of B12?

 

Not right in front of me but a few minutes surfing should find it (darn, I

love the internet!)

 

*time passes*

 

I haven't been able to find much, but the news doesn't look brilliant in

terms of seaweed, miso, tempeh and so on:

 

'Tempeh, miso, and seaweed often are labeled as having large amounts of

vitamin B12. However, these products are not reliable sources of the vitamin

because the amount of vitamin B12 present depends on the type of processing

the food undergoes. Also, Victor Herbert, a leading authority on vitamin B12

states that the amount on the label cannot be trusted because the current

method for measuring vitamin B12 in foods measures both active and inactive

forms of vitamin B12. The inactive form (also called analogues) actually

interferes with normal vitamin B12 absorption and metabolism. These foods

may contain more inactive than active vitamin B12.'

 

http://www.ivu.org/faq/vitaminb12.html

 

'... the present consensus is that any B12 present in plant foods is likely

to be unavailable to humans and so these foods should not be relied upon as

safe sources.'

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html

 

 

'Vegans and vegetarians that do not consume dairy products or eggs can

obtain vitamin B-12 from a few non-animal sources. B-12 can be found in

some brands of nutritional yeast, such as Red Star nutritional yeast. One

to two teaspoons of nutritional yeast (not to be confused with active dry

yeast used in baking or brewer's yeast) supplies you with the adult

recommended daily allowance (RDA).

 

'B-12 is also found in various fortified foods, like Nutri-Grain cereal (1.4

ounces supplies you with the adult RDA). You can also take a non-animal

derived vitamin B-12 supplement, or multivitamin and mineral supplement.'

http://www.geocities.com/healthyadvice/Nutrition-Q5.html

 

I am also not finding that Brewer's yeast is all that helpful in getting

your B12. 'Nutritional yeast contains high levels of many important

nutrients, including all of the B vitamins (except for B12) ...'

http://www.kalyx.com/store/proddetail.cfm/ItemID/2847.0/CategoryID/12500.0/S

ubCatID/245.0/file.htm

 

What is Nutritional Yeast? / Which ones provide B12?

Nutritional yeast (saccharomyces cerevisiae) is a food yeast, grown on a

molasses solution, and comes in powder or flake form. It has a

pleasant-tasting, cheesy flavour and can be used directly on vegetables,

baked potatoes, popcorn and other foods as a condiment. It is different from

brewer's yeast or torula yeast. It can often be used by those sensitive to

other yeasts. Ms. Carlyee Hammer at Universal Products (the parent company

of Red Star, (414)-935-3910) indicates that ONLY ONE variety of Red Star

nutritional yeast (product number T-6635+) is fortified with B12 at the

level of 8 ug/g. Ms. Carlyee also claimed that other varieties of

" nutritional " yeast contain vitamin B12 at less than 1 ug/g, but was unaware

whether this was determined by microbial assay or not. Microbial assays for

vitamin B12 are no longer considered reliable due to problems with the

cross-reactivity of corrinoids. She indicated that Hazelton Laboratories

(608-241-7210) did the assay. From the above two paragraphs, one might

conclude that Red Star T-6635+ nutritional yeast, and probably no other

variety, is a reliable dietary source of B12 at this time.

http://www.purifymind.com/FAQ.htm

 

On the other hand, Marmite, Promite, and Vegemite (if you can get them) are

great. 4 grams of Marmite provides 60% of the RDA.

 

There you go, I hope that has been of some use. If you want, btw, I would

be happy to send you some little packs of Vegemite so you can see if it is

something you would care to use. I can get them fairly cheaply and they

would be light to post.

 

Lee-Gwen

[Guest guest]

Thank you, thank you!! I've known for a while that a plate of rice

and beans provided 'complete protein', but never had any idea what

this actually meant. Hope you don't mind..I'm gonna copy your post

for future reference.

karen

[Guest guest]

Thx for the suggestion! I will def. look into it.

karen

, " Lady Sappho "

<ladysappho@a...> wrote:

> You are quite welcome! May I suggest Diet for a Small Planet to

you?

[Guest guest]

Thanks for that ;=) I have _Diet for a Small Planet_ and _Recipes for a

Small Planet_ in my bookcase - invaluable! Btw, while it might not be

necessary to combine vegetable proteins at the same meal, it sure does

make life easier if one does it as often as possible - that way you

don't suddenly say - Hey I Forgot To Eat Beans (or whatever) after a

couple of days.

 

Anyone who says that vegans and vegetarians cannot be eating a healthy

diet is just uninformed. Why oh why do we always get queried and or

attacked about this by people who would never dream of interfering in

other aspects of our personal health and lives. It's not like passive

smoking, after all - they can't suffer from passive protein or vitamin

deficiency ;=) Nor, to judge from all the omnivores around, is veganism

or vegetarianism particularly 'catching'. Do they suspect that we are

enjoying our food more than they are???? Lovely thought! ;=)

 

Anyway, thanks for the post. I too have saved it to print out and put

with my vegetarian clippings and files. Nice ;=)

 

best,

pat - in canada

--

PAT (In London, Ontario)

Email List: townhounds-

(townhounds/)

Personal Email: SANTBROWN

Personal Webpage: http://www.angelfire.com/art/pendragon/

----------

* " Until he extends the circle of compassion to all living things, man

will not himself find peace. " - Albert Schweitzer

* " Don't be afraid. Just start the tape. " - Anne Rice

* " I don't do pawprints. " -- Snoopy

----------

[Guest guest]

Strikes me that your sources are impeccable ;=) Again, thanks. Btw, do

you have useful info at your fingertips (I can do some research if not)

about how much brewers' yeast, tempeh, seaweed, or whatever is enough

for daily intake of B12? I am currently ovo-lacto in that I can't quite

call myself a vegan (certainly not with leather on my feet) but I find I

rarely now touch eggs or dairy, which is the omnivore source of it. I

take supplements, but I wonder if I don't get enough in other ways. No

objection to supplements, you understand ;=) a great idea in a busy

world and medically necessary in many cases.

 

best,

pat

--

PAT (In London, Ontario)

Email List: townhounds-

(townhounds/)

Personal Email: SANTBROWN

Personal Webpage: http://www.angelfire.com/art/pendragon/

----------

* " Until he extends the circle of compassion to all living things, man

will not himself find peace. " - Albert Schweitzer

* " Don't be afraid. Just start the tape. " - Anne Rice

* " I don't do pawprints. " -- Snoopy

----------

[Guest guest]

> I find I

> rarely now touch eggs or dairy, which is the omnivore source of it

>

Whoops, still sleepwalking I see. I should have said 'which is the

ovo-lacto source of it', meaning B12.

best,

pat - in canada

--

PAT (In London, Ontario)

Email List: townhounds-

(townhounds/)

Personal Email: SANTBROWN

Personal Webpage: http://www.angelfire.com/art/pendragon/

----------

* " Until he extends the circle of compassion to all living things, man

will not himself find peace. " - Albert Schweitzer

* " Don't be afraid. Just start the tape. " - Anne Rice

* " I don't do pawprints. " -- Snoopy

----------

[Guest guest]

Hi again Lee-Gwen!

 

I've been surfing too - figured I should do my own research, but it sure

is nice to have someone find some of the same things. I found these to

be fairly informative, if somewhat contradictory ;=) - experts always

seem to differ.

 

http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm - you cite this one

http://www.veganoutreach.org/health/b12rec.html (what your friend mught

call a biased site)

http://www.vegansociety.com/html/info/b12sheet.htm (likewise)

http://www.trianglevegsociety.org/grapevine/v11_1/b12.html (ditto)

 

(Though why these societies wouldn't have grave concern for their

members, I dunno - but I appreciate the other lilnks you give and shall

check them out myself. Obviously you're more expert on the internet than

I ;=))

 

Agreed: tempeh, sea vegetables, etc. not good to use for B12.

Nutritional yeast not good unless it is Red Star T3365 - B12 fortified.

Some fortified cereals and certainly Eden fortified soymilk excellent.

 

And then there's Marmite and Vegemite. Whoopeee! My cupboards have both

- I can't always get Marmite, which I rather prefer (probably because

I'm from the UK originally), so I buy either one when they're on the

shelves here. I've got our local supermarket to stock Marmite now,

though. Vegemite I learned to use during some 25 years in Australia.

(Aussies are addicted to it, I like to say - and with good reason. It's

excellent.)

 

But how kind of you to offer to send some samples - that's very

thoughtful. But no, it's not necessary - I'm looking at some four jars

of it right now! I knew it had *some* B12 in it (along with other Bs)

but I didn't know how much - and no nutritional info I have ever run

across has specifically mentioned how much. Somehow it seemed easier to

take pill supplements, and considering how B12 is supposed to be taken,

perhaps it is. But it's nice to know that there is an alternative source

that is already in my diet, including the soymilk, which I don't use

enough of ;=)

 

Thanks so much ;=)

 

best,

pat

--

PAT (In London, Ontario)

Email List: townhounds-

(townhounds/)

Personal Email: SANTBROWN

Personal Webpage: http://www.angelfire.com/art/pendragon/

----------

* " Until he extends the circle of compassion to all living things, man

will not himself find peace. " - Albert Schweitzer

* " Don't be afraid. Just start the tape. " - Anne Rice

* " I don't do pawprints. " -- Snoopy

----------

[Guest guest]

****Lady Sappho wrote...

>>...As long as one eats a balanced vegetarian or vegan...diet, one will be

getting enough protein.<<

 

This is where the most misunderstanding occurs. Each source of these many

diets propose that theirs is the best one. Which is really the best? I've

**never** seen anything defininative on the subject in my 22 yrs as a

veggie.

 

So, it's really a matter of personal preferences. Some choices are quite

good, and as we all know only too well, some are not so good!!

 

 

>>...Human beings can thrive on a variety of protein sources...<<

 

As mentioned in a prior posting, our body cannot determine the source of our

nutrition, only if it exist in adequate quantities or not. For me, the only

issue not fully resolved within the larger body of veggie knowledge is about

a " complete protein. "

 

Since the release of " Diet for a small planet " and FML's later recanting of

her theory of food combining, I've wondered about the substance behind the

issue. Does it really matter or not? This is my own quite subjective

experience, and I personally believe that getting a complete protein

matters!! If anyone's interested, we can explore the reasons in a followup

email.

 

Dave