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" Dancer says: If I wanted bitching I would go visit my mother-in-law "

That is hilarious! I don't have a mother-in-law anymore, whew! I agree

though, Be happy, don't worry, have fun. Angels can fly because they take

themselves lightly......... so lighten up people, and start sending in

those great recipes you have stored! Love & Light, Kendra PS you will

be missed Dancer!

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Even though I just signed up for your new list, I

wanted to say that I think it's a darn shame that you

are all letting this get to you. We all own delete

keys, and we can ignore those that we don't care to

hear from. This is a mighty fine veggie recipe list

and I think you're letting certain troublemakers win

by staging a grand exit. Besides, I noticed that your

(Dancer) new list is open and anyone can join. You

can bet your booties those same tb's will show up

sooner or later there too. I don't believe in running

away. I believe in the delete key.

Cher

PS... people with a propensity to post OT posts that

are not relevant or welcomed can be banned from email

lists...anybody thought of that? After all, this is a

list of vegetarians so we hardly need to be converted

again do we? And where is the moderator of this list

anyway????

 

--- Dancer^ <coolcook wrote:

> Hello

>

> I have been sitting back and watching the the list

> for the last week.

> I'm sick and tired of all the arguing, I'm on here

> to learm about

> vegetarian-vegan cooking, to make a few friends and

> have some fun.

>

> I respect your views, I really to...but this is not

> the forum for it.

> If my tone affends you..get over it..I can be a very

> nice person. But list

> is turning me into an angry one.

>

> Preston I agree with you, It has pissed me off.

> The owner of this list is missing, no where to be

> found. or just sitting

> back

> and enjoying the fighting. Well I have had it.

> If I wanted bitching I would go visit my

> mother-in-law.

>

> So as of Saturday morning I am leaving this list.

> I have started a new list. I would like it very

> much if most of you would

> join me.

> If your coming for recipes and good chatter about

> the way you cook great.

> Or you want advise about cooking I'm sure the people

> that join will help

> you.

> I will do my best to answer questions...

> But if your coming to bitch..you won't be on the

> list very long.

> Thats my 2 cents. here is the addy

> quickv-vrecipes-

> Take care everyone

> Dancer^

>

>

>

 

 

=====

The Eactivists

http://www.eactivist.50megs.com

eactivists

 

" Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in

harmony. " --Mahatma Gandhi

 

" The power of one is to do something...anything. " --Unknown

 

 

 

Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Messenger

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Guest guest

> by staging a grand exit. Besides, I noticed that your

> (Dancer) new list is open and anyone can join. You

> can bet your booties those same tb's will show up

> sooner or later there too. I don't believe in running

 

Ever heard of that saying " I've seen the enemy and they are us " or however

it goes? Well, I think that applies here. In my mind the " trouble-maker "

isn't just the person that initially sent the vomit-inducing post, but the

people that defended it after the fact. I've posted numerous times begging

that this list stay on topic and that we not devolve into these philophical

pissing contests over who is more compassionate and animal loving and people

have refused to do so thus far.

 

Preston

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I'm, unfortunatley, just a user, not producer, of recipes. I'm not good

enough at this yet to really recommend anything. Most of the stuff I cook

comes out of a couple cookbooks and Vegetarian Times.

 

Preston

 

>

> Kendra Blythe [bluenote777]

> Friday, August 03, 2001 7:36 AM

>

> Re: way off topic

>

>

> Thanks for keeping us on task Preston, the world needs people like you!

> Where are those great recipes you are hiding dear? Kendra

>

>

> contact owner: -owner

> Mail list:

> Delivered-mailing list

> List-Un: -

>

> no flaming arguing or denigration of others allowed

> contact owner with complaints regarding posting/list

> or anything else. Thank you.

> please share/comment/inform and mostly enjoy this list

>

>

>

>

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Vegetarian Times (or was it Veggie Life?) had some seriously good

recipes in it this past month.

I don't know if you get it, but the Summer issue of Animal Times,

from Peta had some GREAT recipes in there too!!!

YUM!

 

 

 

, " Preston Crawford " <prestonc@c...>

wrote:

> I'm, unfortunatley, just a user, not producer, of recipes. I'm not

good

> enough at this yet to really recommend anything. Most of the stuff

I cook

> comes out of a couple cookbooks and Vegetarian Times.

>

> Preston

>

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  • 1 year later...

In a message dated 01/24/2003 1:34:28 PM Eastern Standard Time,

ladysappho writes:

 

 

> . She is putting her life and the life of her, Godwilling, newborn

> in danger as far as I can see.

>

 

I'd have to agree. I am fully aware that women give birth and doctors and

nurses are just there. With my third child I was going to have him naturally

in the hospital (I had high risk pregnancies but not had any complications.)

I was 8 and 80 and the doctor went to check. Baby was sucking on her fingers.

Then while coming down he twisted and got his shoulder got stuck. No amount

of effort would free him. I was rushed to the OR with my back side up in the

air, my head below and the doctors fingers well, the baby was sucking on

them. Doc was making sure the cord didn't slip down.

If I had not been in the hospital I'd hate to think what could have happened.

I think people should have control over their bodies but I would never risk

my children's best interest for the sake of wanting to do it my way.

I think your friend should at least go to a birth center where a team of

medical providers could at least intervene should the need arise. Otherwise

they can leave her alone to do her thing. IMHO

Robin in NC

 

 

 

 

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A friend of mine is due in two weeks. Her baby is

breech (no big deal). Her plans all along have been

to birth unassisted...She still plans to do that. She

will be having an unassisted breech birth! Wow, it's

amazing what we will do to preserve or rights and

freedoms. She wants zero control, this is her body

and baby.

How wonderful it is to live in a country where we are

free to make our own decisions about this.

Unfortunately...If a doctor were to hear of her plans,

he would have CPS banging down her door. So sad.

Did I mention she's a vegan?? Then I guess it's not

too off topic, huh?

Warmly,

Allison

 

 

 

 

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On Fri, 24 Jan 2003 09:38:43 -0800 (PST), you wrote:

 

>A friend of mine is due in two weeks. Her baby is

>breech (no big deal). Her plans all along have been

>to birth unassisted...She still plans to do that. She

>will be having an unassisted breech birth! Wow, it's

>amazing what we will do to preserve or rights and

>freedoms. She wants zero control, this is her body

>and baby.

 

 

>How wonderful it is to live in a country where we are

>free to make our own decisions about this.

 

Won't be so wonderful if she produces a brain-injured child

or a dead one because of her insistence on an untended

birth.

 

If in the first case, society will likely have to support

the child.

 

>Unfortunately...If a doctor were to hear of her plans,

>he would have CPS banging down her door. So sad.

 

Well, duh.....

 

Pat

 

--

Pat Meadows

 

CLICK DAILY TO FEED THE HUNGRY

United States: http://www.stopthehunger.com/

International: http://www.thehungersite.com/

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Like all the brain injured, hospital born children?

Forceps are a bitch.

 

--- Pat Meadows <pat wrote:

> On Fri, 24 Jan 2003 09:38:43 -0800 (PST), you wrote:

>

> >A friend of mine is due in two weeks. Her baby is

> >breech (no big deal). Her plans all along have

> been

> >to birth unassisted...She still plans to do that.

> She

> >will be having an unassisted breech birth! Wow,

> it's

> >amazing what we will do to preserve or rights and

> >freedoms. She wants zero control, this is her body

> >and baby.

>

>

> >How wonderful it is to live in a country where we

> are

> >free to make our own decisions about this.

>

> Won't be so wonderful if she produces a

> brain-injured child

> or a dead one because of her insistence on an

> untended

> birth.

>

> If in the first case, society will likely have to

> support

> the child.

>

> >Unfortunately...If a doctor were to hear of her

> plans,

> >he would have CPS banging down her door. So sad.

>

> Well, duh.....

>

> Pat

>

> --

> Pat Meadows

>

> CLICK DAILY TO FEED THE HUNGRY

> United States: http://www.stopthehunger.com/

> International: http://www.thehungersite.com/

>

 

 

 

 

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i agree, thats completely irresponsible, in my

opinion. The dangers outweigh the benefits; there's

absolutely no reason to have an unassisted birth,

except perhaps as party favour talk... of course,

she'll probably get a lot more attention if the baby

dies and the authorities find out she knew ahead of

time and didnt take the precautions that were offered.

Best of luck, and hopefully nothing wrong will

happen.., everyone will live happily ever after,etc

etc:)

 

it does of course, affect vegans, because if things go

bad, no doubt it will be one more media slice used to

portray us as wackos and fanatics.

 

--- Pat Meadows <pat wrote:

> On Fri, 24 Jan 2003 09:38:43 -0800 (PST), you wrote:

>

> >A friend of mine is due in two weeks. Her baby is

> >breech (no big deal). Her plans all along have

> been

> >to birth unassisted...She still plans to do that.

> She

> >will be having an unassisted breech birth! Wow,

> it's

> >amazing what we will do to preserve or rights and

> >freedoms. She wants zero control, this is her body

> >and baby.

>

>

> >How wonderful it is to live in a country where we

> are

> >free to make our own decisions about this.

>

> Won't be so wonderful if she produces a

> brain-injured child

> or a dead one because of her insistence on an

> untended

> birth.

>

> If in the first case, society will likely have to

> support

> the child.

>

> >Unfortunately...If a doctor were to hear of her

> plans,

> >he would have CPS banging down her door. So sad.

>

> Well, duh.....

>

> Pat

>

> --

> Pat Meadows

>

> CLICK DAILY TO FEED THE HUNGRY

> United States: http://www.stopthehunger.com/

> International: http://www.thehungersite.com/

>

 

 

 

 

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How very intersting. SO, you feel that the Government

needs to stay away from our lives and yet you feel the

need for it to make rules about where we birth our

babies? I'm intrigued.

But anyway, statistically speaking...The odds are in

her favor.

And I wouldn't call her a fanatic or a wacko. Until

you've walked a mile in one's shoes....

People thought I was radical for having my baby at

home in my bathtub. I'm thinking: Is there any other

way???

This is her fourth child. I think she can handle it.

Her third birth was aired on TLC's " A Baby Story " One

of the few homebirths. It was a big baby. She did

have shoulder dystocia...Which wouldn't be anything to

worry about with a breech.

As I said...Let freedom reign. Or should it be, let

freedom reign...On our terms. Our bodies, our

choice...Right?

Warmly,

Allison

 

--- keith graves <sleepingtao wrote:

> i agree, thats completely irresponsible, in my

> opinion. The dangers outweigh the benefits; there's

> absolutely no reason to have an unassisted birth,

> except perhaps as party favour talk... of course,

> she'll probably get a lot more attention if the baby

> dies and the authorities find out she knew ahead of

> time and didnt take the precautions that were

> offered.

> Best of luck, and hopefully nothing wrong will

> happen.., everyone will live happily ever after,etc

> etc:)

>

> it does of course, affect vegans, because if things

> go

> bad, no doubt it will be one more media slice used

> to

> portray us as wackos and fanatics.

>

> --- Pat Meadows <pat wrote:

> > On Fri, 24 Jan 2003 09:38:43 -0800 (PST), you

> wrote:

> >

> > >A friend of mine is due in two weeks. Her baby

> is

> > >breech (no big deal). Her plans all along have

> > been

> > >to birth unassisted...She still plans to do that.

>

> > She

> > >will be having an unassisted breech birth! Wow,

> > it's

> > >amazing what we will do to preserve or rights and

> > >freedoms. She wants zero control, this is her

> body

> > >and baby.

> >

> >

> > >How wonderful it is to live in a country where we

> > are

> > >free to make our own decisions about this.

> >

> > Won't be so wonderful if she produces a

> > brain-injured child

> > or a dead one because of her insistence on an

> > untended

> > birth.

> >

> > If in the first case, society will likely have to

> > support

> > the child.

> >

> > >Unfortunately...If a doctor were to hear of her

> > plans,

> > >he would have CPS banging down her door. So sad.

> >

> > Well, duh.....

> >

> > Pat

> >

> > --

> > Pat Meadows

> >

> > CLICK DAILY TO FEED THE HUNGRY

> > United States: http://www.stopthehunger.com/

> > International: http://www.thehungersite.com/

> >

>

>

>

>

> Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up

> now.

> http://mailplus.

>

 

 

 

 

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-

Allison Nations

 

> A friend of mine is due in two weeks. Her baby is

> breech (no big deal). Her plans all along have been

> to birth unassisted...She still plans to do that. She

> will be having an unassisted breech birth!

 

Um, oh my gosh, the woman is mad! I can think of no good reason to _want_

to have an unassisted birth! Yes, there may be problems with the

mediatisation of birth, but, heck, that doesn't mean one can't have anyone

assisting. I would be incredibly tempted to actively tell someone in

authority. She is putting her life and the life of her, Godwilling, newborn

in danger as far as I can see.

 

Lee-Gwen (who had half the state, or so it seemed, in her labour ward and

didn't have a problem with that. The only shame was that my mother missed

the actual birth.)

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> mediatisation of birth,

 

Darn my spell checker - that should have been " medicalisation " . Serves me

right for not reading what it tells me more closely.

 

Lee-Gwen

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Hmm,

I guess i must state that I am NOT an american, and I

don't have that 'freedom is the freedom to do whatever

the hell i want and screw who doesn't like it'

attitude...

 

freedom is not freedom from responsibility, but the

freedom to live a life that explores its growth and

possibilities to to the fullest. Thats real freedom.

 

And if people get together and say; hey, look, you may

kill your (fully formed) kid for no good reason than

your staunch denial that you are a member of society

or that you have some paranoid notion that you are

putting the child in more harm by having an assisted

birth, guess what, I'm all for a court ordered

midwife. Because that's not a 'lack of freedom' it's a

'responsibility'. She is responsible for the safe

birth of her child as much as she can assure it. NOw,

if she believes that will be accomplished by an

unassisted (and the impression i got from your post

was completely unassisted, except maybe hubby or

partner) she is very very very wrong on that. Tha

being said, I think a good midwife is by far better

than a snotty doctor.

 

There's nothing wrong with government, if done

properly; even an anarchist utopia has organizations

and value systems. Personally, I don't think I ever

said the government needs to stay away from our lives;

I feel we need to take control of the government, then

reduce the fat and turn it's power towards helping

society, not corporate oligarchies and feudal

capitalist warlords. Then eventually we can work

towards more and more self autonomy, and less and less

government, becaue we will be governing ourselves;

thats the key and goal, for me at least.

 

And YOU might not call her a wacko- I might not

either- I find the idea of a homebirth extremely

natural and beautiful- when attended at least by a

midwife.

 

But any rag that gets word that she calls herself a

vegan, after her baby suffocates to death and she gets

locked up, is gonna splash it all over the news, just

like the Cod liver oil couple that wrecked their kid

in NY and told everyone they were vegan (cod-liver?

vegan?....sigh) and it was all over the news... and

that hurts everyone who knows this is a good idea by

making the divide between those who know what its

really about and who have no clue other than to think

we're all 40-something, baby blue robe-wearing,

neohippy ex housewives that put divine crystals in our

long blonde hair and drink draino and alfalfa juice

for our daily flushing while we sacrifice babies with

enya cranked in the background.

 

 

--- Allison Nations <allyanne2001 wrote:

> How very intersting. SO, you feel that the

> Government

> needs to stay away from our lives and yet you feel

> the

> need for it to make rules about where we birth our

> babies? I'm intrigued.

> But anyway, statistically speaking...The odds are in

> her favor.

> And I wouldn't call her a fanatic or a wacko. Until

> you've walked a mile in one's shoes....

> People thought I was radical for having my baby at

> home in my bathtub. I'm thinking: Is there any

> other

> way???

> This is her fourth child. I think she can handle

> it.

> Her third birth was aired on TLC's " A Baby Story "

> One

> of the few homebirths. It was a big baby. She did

> have shoulder dystocia...Which wouldn't be anything

> to

> worry about with a breech.

> As I said...Let freedom reign. Or should it be, let

> freedom reign...On our terms. Our bodies, our

> choice...Right?

> Warmly,

> Allison

>

 

 

 

 

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to note...

 

an apology before anyone gets offended; i didnt mean

to state that all americans have such an irresponsible

attitude towards freedoms, when i reread after

posting, it looked very much like that.

 

'damn, that narcissistic little bugger even reads the

emails he sends to the group himself' lol

 

 

--- keith graves <sleepingtao wrote:

> Hmm,

> I guess i must state that I am NOT an american, and

> I

> don't have that 'freedom is the freedom to do

> whatever

> the hell i want and screw who doesn't like it'

> attitude...

>

> freedom is not freedom from responsibility, but the

> freedom to live a life that explores its growth and

> possibilities to to the fullest. Thats real freedom.

>

>

> And if people get together and say; hey, look, you

> may

> kill your (fully formed) kid for no good reason than

> your staunch denial that you are a member of society

> or that you have some paranoid notion that you are

> putting the child in more harm by having an assisted

> birth, guess what, I'm all for a court ordered

> midwife. Because that's not a 'lack of freedom' it's

> a

> 'responsibility'. She is responsible for the safe

> birth of her child as much as she can assure it.

> NOw,

> if she believes that will be accomplished by an

> unassisted (and the impression i got from your post

> was completely unassisted, except maybe hubby or

> partner) she is very very very wrong on that. Tha

> being said, I think a good midwife is by far better

> than a snotty doctor.

>

> There's nothing wrong with government, if done

> properly; even an anarchist utopia has organizations

> and value systems. Personally, I don't think I ever

> said the government needs to stay away from our

> lives;

> I feel we need to take control of the government,

> then

> reduce the fat and turn it's power towards helping

> society, not corporate oligarchies and feudal

> capitalist warlords. Then eventually we can work

> towards more and more self autonomy, and less and

> less

> government, becaue we will be governing ourselves;

> thats the key and goal, for me at least.

>

> And YOU might not call her a wacko- I might not

> either- I find the idea of a homebirth extremely

> natural and beautiful- when attended at least by a

> midwife.

>

> But any rag that gets word that she calls herself a

> vegan, after her baby suffocates to death and she

> gets

> locked up, is gonna splash it all over the news,

> just

> like the Cod liver oil couple that wrecked their kid

> in NY and told everyone they were vegan (cod-liver?

> vegan?....sigh) and it was all over the news... and

> that hurts everyone who knows this is a good idea by

> making the divide between those who know what its

> really about and who have no clue other than to

> think

> we're all 40-something, baby blue robe-wearing,

> neohippy ex housewives that put divine crystals in

> our

> long blonde hair and drink draino and alfalfa juice

> for our daily flushing while we sacrifice babies

> with

> enya cranked in the background.

>

>

> --- Allison Nations <allyanne2001 wrote:

> > How very intersting. SO, you feel that the

> > Government

> > needs to stay away from our lives and yet you feel

> > the

> > need for it to make rules about where we birth our

> > babies? I'm intrigued.

> > But anyway, statistically speaking...The odds are

> in

> > her favor.

> > And I wouldn't call her a fanatic or a wacko.

> Until

> > you've walked a mile in one's shoes....

> > People thought I was radical for having my baby at

> > home in my bathtub. I'm thinking: Is there any

> > other

> > way???

> > This is her fourth child. I think she can handle

> > it.

> > Her third birth was aired on TLC's " A Baby Story "

> > One

> > of the few homebirths. It was a big baby. She

> did

> > have shoulder dystocia...Which wouldn't be

> anything

> > to

> > worry about with a breech.

> > As I said...Let freedom reign. Or should it be,

> let

> > freedom reign...On our terms. Our bodies, our

> > choice...Right?

> > Warmly,

> > Allison

> >

>

>

>

>

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But you're pro choice feminist? I really don't

understand.

Also remember that I am a student midwife and would

never have a job if everyone decided to birth without

a caregiver. I just feel that people have rights to

birth where and with whom they choose...Period.

There are many women whom have had horrible births,

even with midwives. YOu will never, ever, ever

understand what a woman goes through when she has had

her childbirth experience twisted and ripped from her.

I do, my first one was horrible. I weep to this day.

I probably always will. A woman lost her baby one

month after my daughter was born. She feels her

caregiver handled the sitation poorly...It only fueled

her desire for a completely unassisted birth. Hard

for you to understand...And, as I said, you never

will.

 

Warmly,

Allison

It is ironic that the feminist movement has not

aligned itself with the childbirth issue, especially

since reproductive self-determinatin is otherwise a

central tenet of feminist policy -

Elizabeth Davis

 

 

>>

> And if people get together and say; hey, look, you

> may

> kill your (fully formed) kid for no good reason than

> your staunch denial that you are a member of society

> or that you have some paranoid notion that you are

> putting the child in more harm by having an assisted

> birth, guess what, I'm all for a court ordered

> midwife. Because that's not a 'lack of freedom' it's

> a

> 'responsibility'. She is responsible for the safe

> birth of her child as much as she can assure it.

> NOw,

 

 

 

 

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I am pro-choice, and I am pro-feminist... but I think

what I am addressing is an issue underlaying both

those things: what concerns me is a lack of

responsibility to society and to her own child. I am

all for midwives; in fact i think they are preferrable

to doctors or hopsitals.

 

The central tenet of what Im striking at is that if

everything goes fine, fine, nothing will come of it.

Everyone will be happy and life will go on.

 

However, if just one thing goes wrong that could have

been prevented with the presence of a midwife; all of

society suffers, and mostly that child. At the very

least, she should have assistance on call (you may

have mentioned she did, i may have missed that)

 

And, quite logically, there is absolutely no reason to

not have a midwife there. NOne whatsoever. To an

experienced birthgiver; she should have the knowledge

to know she's mostly in control of the situation; the

problems lies in the fact that if the situation does

get out of control, and she is alone...

 

But if the midwife is there, sitting in the other

room, watching tv, while she has the birth in her own

space and everything goes fine... no harm no foul.

It's like car insurance.

 

You say people should birth wherever they choose:

should they birth on the bus, by choice? Should they

birth in the middle of an auto factory? Or how about

the middle of a pesticide riddled laboratory, by

choice? Of course not, you will most likely say. The

question therein lies... why?

 

Because those situations are both ridiculous, unclean,

and dangerous.. for one reason or another, we see them

as ludacrous. The concept of what your friend is

attempting to do, also falls into that ludicrous

catergory (though not so extreme, consiidering her

experience) because she is denying the possiblity of

assistance in a situation proven to have a good chance

of being very dangerous.

 

Thats just my opinion; she doesnt need big strong men

to come and save her from her hysterical self give her

a good ol' birthin', but she does need to accept that

finding positive help for her, jsut in case somethng

bad does happen and it turns out it gets out of

control- even if that help is YOU- is her

responsibility, which is far more valuable than

freedom, because it builds the foundations which let

freedoms grow.

 

--- Allison Nations <allyanne2001 wrote:

> But you're pro choice feminist? I really don't

> understand.

> Also remember that I am a student midwife and would

> never have a job if everyone decided to birth

> without

> a caregiver. I just feel that people have rights to

> birth where and with whom they choose...Period.

> There are many women whom have had horrible births,

> even with midwives. YOu will never, ever, ever

> understand what a woman goes through when she has

> had

> her childbirth experience twisted and ripped from

> her.

> I do, my first one was horrible. I weep to this

> day.

> I probably always will. A woman lost her baby one

> month after my daughter was born. She feels her

> caregiver handled the sitation poorly...It only

> fueled

> her desire for a completely unassisted birth. Hard

> for you to understand...And, as I said, you never

> will.

>

> Warmly,

> Allison

> It is ironic that the feminist movement has not

> aligned itself with the childbirth issue, especially

> since reproductive self-determinatin is otherwise a

> central tenet of feminist policy -

> Elizabeth Davis

>

>

> >>

> > And if people get together and say; hey, look, you

> > may

> > kill your (fully formed) kid for no good reason

> than

> > your staunch denial that you are a member of

> society

> > or that you have some paranoid notion that you are

> > putting the child in more harm by having an

> assisted

> > birth, guess what, I'm all for a court ordered

> > midwife. Because that's not a 'lack of freedom'

> it's

> > a

> > 'responsibility'. She is responsible for the safe

> > birth of her child as much as she can assure it.

> > NOw,

>

>

>

>

> Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up

> now.

> http://mailplus.

>

 

 

 

 

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