A Word on Karma, Pardon the Pedantry

[Guest guest]

Uh, where do you get this?

 

It's not anything like what I've been taught all these years.

 

Karma is not what people make it out to be. It's not cause-and-effect,

and it's not Lennon's " Instant Karma's gonna get you " idea either. Karma

is much bigger than individuals and transcends individual actions, and

there is nothing we can do about where we are on the Karmic Wheel, any

more than we can do anything about what Zodiac sign we're born under. It

just is. And so it shall be, as the cycles progress.

 

Simplistic interpretations of Karma have given rise to much New Age

nonsense, and the notion that " intent " is involved stems probably from

discussions of will as it relates to action. It's a very Roman Catholic

Christian idea that " the thought is as bad as the sin " -- and even this

has no legitimate theological underpinning. in any case, it's certainly

not Hindu or Buddhist, and so not related to Karma in any way I've ever

encountered.

 

Pardon me being a pedant, it is my nature at times.

 

Gassho.

 

 

On Monday, January 27, 2003, at 09:05 AM,

wrote:

 

> anyways, karma is determined by intent; not outcome-

Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're

not. In either case, the idea is quite staggering.

-Arthur C Clarke, science fiction writer (1917- )

[Guest guest]

In pagan circles, there is the three-fold rule (anything you do visits you

three-fold) & the wiccan rede (an ye harm none, do what thou wilt).

 

It's been a pretty good mantra for me to live by because I do believe that

what you do will come back to visit you in some form or another, so intent

does factor in. But I do agree with you in that Karma also has much bigger

implications, than what we do as individuals. What we do as a world as a

whole also has ramifications. So we as individuals have to do what we can

to at least contribute in some small part to impart some good karma into the

universe.

 

Megan

[Guest guest]

The only " nonsense " in this reality is the unexamined life.

 

I say arrange it (karma, religion, or otherwise) anyway that works for you.

Give me a change to be a part of it or not and respect my decision whatever

it is.

 

That's how easy life can be.

 

Dave

 

 

 

 

 

The Stewarts [stews9]

 

Karma is not what people make it out to be. It's not cause-and-effect,

and it's not Lennon's " Instant Karma's gonna get you " idea either. Karma

is much bigger than individuals and transcends individual actions, and

there is nothing we can do about where we are on the Karmic Wheel, any

more than we can do anything about what Zodiac sign we're born under. It

just is. And so it shall be, as the cycles progress.

 

Simplistic interpretations of Karma have given rise to much New Age

nonsense, and the notion that " intent " is involved stems probably from

discussions of will as it relates to action. It's a very Roman Catholic

Christian idea that " the thought is as bad as the sin " -- and even this

has no legitimate theological underpinning. in any case, it's certainly

not Hindu or Buddhist, and so not related to Karma in any way I've ever

encountered.

[Guest guest]

I don't want to dump on anyone's spiritual beliefs (at the moment)

but I don't understand why people feel the need to believe in things

like karma. in essence karma doesn't seem all that different from

believing in a heaven and a hell, because the only reason a christian

is obligated to behave ethically is to avoid damnation / be rewarded

in the afterlife. Why can't moral people just avoiding harming

others because they generally care about people (and animals)? In my

opinion this is one reason the world is so chaotic right now- most of

us are raised to not do something because we'll get in trouble not

because it could hurt someone. The result is a world where people

will behave unethically whenever it benefits them and they think they

can get away with it (e.g. Dubbya and his cronies war plans).

obviously there's lots of people who don't care about others and

probably need some sort of consequences for malignant actions but

what about the rest of us?

[Guest guest]

Then the rest of you and people like you believe

whatever it is you believe. Practice random kindness

and live by your own value system just because you

feel that is the way it should be instead of a

reward/punishment system. As for the people whom

choose a more spiritual approach to life, we have that

right. Karmic retribution is a far cry from heaven

and hell. The main tenet of Christianity is the fear

of the afterlife, instead of concentrating on your

time on earth. I think beliefs in Karma, The Three

Folds Law, etc. help keep us in tune with our physical

selves and the world around us. Making us better

people, not just giving us tickets into heaven.

Please don't look down on people's beliefs. Whatever

makes, or helps, someone to be a moral and kind person

is fine with me. And should be okay with you. The

world is much more interesting with a variety of

thoughts, feelings, beliefs and values. We don't have

to understand it, just respect it.

Warmly,

Allison

 

--- " dave <dave4sale " <dave4sale

wrote:

> I don't want to dump on anyone's spiritual beliefs

> (at the moment)

> but I don't understand why people feel the need to

> believe in things

> like karma. in essence karma doesn't seem all that

> different from

> believing in a heaven and a hell, because the only

> reason a christian

> is obligated to behave ethically is to avoid

> damnation / be rewarded

> in the afterlife. Why can't moral people just

> avoiding harming

> others because they generally care about people (and

> animals)? In my

> opinion this is one reason the world is so chaotic

> right now- most of

> us are raised to not do something because we'll get

> in trouble not

> because it could hurt someone. The result is a

> world where people

> will behave unethically whenever it benefits them

> and they think they

> can get away with it (e.g. Dubbya and his cronies

> war plans).

> obviously there's lots of people who don't care

> about others and

> probably need some sort of consequences for

> malignant actions but

> what about the rest of us?

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

*****Allison wrote.....

>>...main tenet of Christianity

is the fear of the afterlife...<<

 

Huh? I always thought it was " love thy neighbor as thyself. " Shows what I

know...

 

 

>>...Whatever makes, or helps,

someone to be a moral and kind

person is fine with me.<<

 

That would be fine, if it stopped there. How many wars have been fought in

the name of religion or some other belief?

 

 

--- " dave <dave4sale " <dave4sale

wrote:

 

>>...I don't understand why people

feel the need to believe in things

like karma. in essence karma doesn't

seem all that different from

believing in a heaven and a hell...<<

 

How many people who believe in karma have you discussed this issue with?

What did they say? What did you find that " didn't work " for you?

 

 

>>...only reason a christian is obligated to behave ethically is to avoid

damnation / be rewarded in the afterlife.<<

 

This is a very cynical view of Christianity. What faith are you?

 

 

>>Why can't moral people just avoiding harming others because they generally

care about people (and animals)?<<

 

We all act according to a " belief system " which we each device and that

contains all of our " truths, " traits, habits, behaviors, and emotions for

who we are. Any one of those factors makes each of us incredibly complex.

 

Morality is another wholly different domain of who we are.

 

 

>>In my opinion this is one reason the world is so chaotic right now- most

of us are raised to not do something because we'll get in trouble not

because it could hurt someone.<<

 

And, your suggestion to fix this chaos would be?

 

 

>>The result is a world where people will behave unethically whenever it

benefits them and they think they can get away with it (e.g. Dubbya and his

cronies war plans).<<

 

I suggest that your view of life is way too limited. People " always " act in

a way that most benefits them. More than one Nobel Prize has been won for

exploring just this single concept in a number of its different forms.

 

However, you speak about it off-handedly and yet fail to grasp the nuances

that make sense of what so easily confounds you.

 

You don't understand, so you call it unethical rather than seek the answers

that gives you perspective.

 

Do the " war plans " make sense? Hell NO!! But, they are not unethical, they

are simply addressing a need which you fail to understand, agree with, or

may be unable to explain in any other terms.

 

 

>>...obviously there's lots of people who don't care about others...<<

 

And there's a " hell of a lot " who do!!!

 

 

>>...and probably need some sort of consequences for malignant actions...<<

 

Most of what I've read in your email is full of serious " logical flaws. "

Rather that state your case, you state the perceived case of a mysterious

" straw man " . I have only one suggestion.

 

Speak for yourself, and give others the chance to do the same.

 

 

>>...but what about the rest of us?<<

 

It's simple, speak your own heart and trust that others will do the same.

 

Dave (the other one...)

[Guest guest]

i didn't wish to offend anyone's beliefs. i just don't understand

karma and i was hoping someone could enlighten me. i think it is

fine to believe whatever people want and even to express them to

others, provided they don't enforce their views on others. i have

unfortunately come across some christians who insist " you're going to

hell if you don't believe jesus is your savior " . I know that this

doesn't mean all christians think this way, it just represents an

interpretation of christianity which is not very open-minded.

another sprirituality related issue i personal have trouble with is

justifying one's behavior solely because it is accepted by their

particular dogma (e.g. it's ok to eat meat because in the bible it

says god created animals for humans to use for their benefit).

 

 

" How many wars have been fought in the name of religion or some other

belief? "

 

I agree with this point. beliefs are dangerous if interpreted by

dangerous people. but even some goodnatured people can be led

astray.

>

> " How many people who believe in karma have you discussed this issue

with? " Quite a few classmates over the years.

> " What did they say? " Some have argued that everyone acts at least

partially out of self-interest, what matters is that people who

believe in karma don't harm people.

 

" What did you find that " didn't work " for you? " why it personally

doesn't work for me is two-fold. first, " what goes around comes

around " doesn't work out in life (at least not this one). for lack

of a better example, look at OJ simpson- a lot of people believe he

is guilty- including the civil court- and yet he is free and still

has plenty of fans and money. second, i personally find believing

something is " only wrong if you get caught " or in the case of karma,

because it will come back to you, to be rather ingenuine. >

>

> >>...only reason a christian is obligated to behave ethically is to

avoid

> damnation / be rewarded in the afterlife.<<

> " This is a very cynical view of Christianity. What faith are you? "

 

I was raised as a christian. You misunderstood me. I am not saying

that all christians care about is what happens to them in the

afterlife. Just that the main reason emphasized by proponents of

christianity to be good is that you'll go to hell if you don't.

>

> Morality is another wholly different domain of who we are.

> I agree. but all too often it seems, people fail to think for

themselves and instead go along with what the majority believes is

correct. Going along with what " everyone " else thinks is right

doesn't make you unique or complex.

>

> >>In my opinion this is one reason the world is so chaotic right

now- most of us are raised to not do something because we'll get in

trouble not because it could hurt someone.<<

>

> And, your suggestion to fix this chaos would be?

 

> Raise children differently. try to get them to grasp the " do onto

others what you would have them do unto you " concept more than

the " one more word and you're grounded mentality " that a lot of

parents take. also be better models and practice what we preach.

easier said than done, i know.

>

>actually I wasn't implying that people " always " act in a way which

most benefits in them. and the issue of whether people can ever be

truly altruistic has no easy, straight forward answer. >

>

> " Most of what I've read in your email is full of serious " logical

flaws. " Rather that state your case, you state the perceived case of

a mysterious " straw man " . I have only one suggestion.

> Speak for yourself, and give others the chance to do the same. "

>

I didn't type " in my opinion " or " i think " before everything i wrote

because i thought that would get tedious and also, isnt it obvious

whatever i type is my opinion? this is a forum after all. I have

very different opinions from many people i meet. does it make my

opinion or theirs any less valid? of course not. Personally I do

find the bush administration's war plans unethical because they are

(a) lying to us saying that their main concern is that Husein has

weapons- there are many other countries that we know for sure have

weapons, what about them? (b) willing to risk human life- both those

of soldiers and of Iraqi civilians, not to mention Israeli civilians

when Iraq retaliates- for oil © planning to go to war despite

major protest within our own country- granted this reason is more a

fault of the US's lack of true democracy than Bush's. (d) the oil

Bush seeks will directly benefit bush and oil tycoons, not the

employees of oil companies, the poor, or even the consumers of oil.

 

do you believe that because you went to war, your opinions on whether

or not we go to war in iraq are more valid than those who have not? I

think that might be true in the case where someone who has never been

to war is adamant that we fight is arguing with a veteran who argues

that we should not. but i don't think you need to have been in a war

to feel that they are wrong. that being said, i am not sure I am

even against all wars. world war 2 may have very well been necessary

to stop hitler. however, the situation in germany which led to

hitler's rise to power probably wouldn't have happened if not for

WWI. War is often cyclical. Look at israel- a palestinian suicide

bomber walks into a star bucks. the next day the israeli army guns

down palestinians. It's never going to end if each side keeps

retaliating. The reason I am against most war is because I feel it

is hypocritical. the idea of having a military to defend us is based

on the idea that our people's lives are precious. if we initiate war

with a country and thereby accept that we will be killing their

civilians just to potentially save our own lives (at least in theory)

aren't we basically saying our lives are more important than theirs.

in iraq or afghanistan, it is true that many of their people are

being harmed by their own leaders. that doesn't mean we are

justified in blowing them up though. peace and love, " super dave "

[Guest guest]

As a buddhist, I feel compelled to speak just a little

on the subject:

the basis of karma is intent, and not outcome. What

drives you to do what you do, not the result of what

you are doing, will determine the karmic

repercussions. Also the myth that 'karma will bite you

in the ass' is a misrepresentation; karma is no blind

scale of justice; what you must understand is that

karma works in the sense that anything you do to

others, you are also doing to yourself. You cannot

degrade another without first degrading your mind to

the point where you feel that it is acceptable to do

such. karma works in the sense that we are all

interconnected, and harming another really serves to

harm yourself as well;

The further concept that being good will lead to a

better life, or being bad will lead to a worse one, is

often a misrepresentation. There is some mythical

belief in such actions occuring time to time; but the

reality of karma in the afterlife pertains more to the

amount of personal soul seeking you will need to do in

order to be free from your ego; indeed, many believe

not that those who are born into the most horrible

situations in the world where tortue, abject poverty

and inhuman conditions abound; do so out of choice, in

order to take the burden from another who may, in

their place, not be as strong as to cope with the

suffering.

 

Again, not all buddhist paths are the same, and not

all interperetations of karma are the same. Hope this

helps a little.

 

When you realize that you and I are the exact same

person, then karma becomes easily visible.

 

 

--- " dave <dave4sale " <dave4sale

wrote:

 

>>...I don't understand why people

feel the need to believe in things

like karma. in essence karma doesn't

seem all that different from

believing in a heaven and a hell...<<

 

How many people who believe in karma have you

discussed this issue with?

What did they say? What did you find that " didn't

work " for you?

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

thank you yes that sheds much light on the subject

[Guest guest]

I agree ;=) Some of us are not at all religious, and therefore have to

be verrrry very careful of our ethical standards. This is not because of

a superior being who we think tells us what to do, or fear of after-life

punishment or hope of after-life reward, or even fear of what the

neighbours or the law might have to say (sometimes as great an

incitement to certain behaviours than any religion could devise).

 

best.

pat - canada

AND while I'm at it, and we are talking of war and, therefore, implying

national fervor or lack of it (well, some of us here, anyway) I think I

shall stop signing 'pat -canada' - My place of residence and/or

citizenship, wherever that might be, is a poor kind of identity in

today's world. Let me sign off in future (to avoid confusion with Pat

Meadows) as

 

best,

pat sant ;=)

 

> Why can't moral people just avoiding harming

> others because they generally care about people (and animals)? In my

> opinion this is one reason the world is so chaotic right now- most of

> us are raised to not do something because we'll get in trouble not

> because it could hurt someone. The result is a world where people

> will behave unethically whenever it benefits them and they think they

> can get away with it (e.g. Dubbya and his cronies war plans).

> obviously there's lots of people who don't care about others and

> probably need some sort of consequences for malignant actions but

> what about the rest of us?

>

--

PAT (In London, Ontario)

Email List: townhounds-

townhounds/

Personal Email: SANTBROWN

Personal Webpage: http://www.angelfire.com/art/pendragon/

----------

* " Until he extends the circle of compassion to all living things, man

will not himself find peace. " - Albert Schweitzer

* " Don't be afraid. Just start the tape. " - Anne Rice

* " I don't do pawprints. " -- Snoopy

----------

[Guest guest]

The concept of karmic intent derives from the mahayana

path of buddhism; specifically in Tibet. It is not

comparable to the idea that the thought is the sin,

not at all; that a western concept; karma is not some

great machine or cycle we have no control over and we

are trapped in, those are myths based on primitive

interperetations of the karmic wheel.

 

In essence, it is very hard to describe the concept in

a western framework; even the words will often fail.

To say karma is derived from intent is because one of

the fundamental rules of karma is that everythig is a

series of cause and effect relationships and if this

is true, then the original intent that creates and

outcome will be the outcome of a previous outcome;

cause and effect , over and over again, which spins

the karmic wheel. The intent, however, is in the human

perception and the filter that determines a desire for

negative or positive results or outcomes.

 

For instance: If you intend to rape a woman, but trip

on a rock while following her, and as you stand up you

bump into someone who is running away from a poor

little old lady with her purse that has all her life

savings in it, and he trips and falls and the police

catch him- your karma is still bad. Why? Because your

intent, which houses itself in your mind, and thus

your soul, is still dark and festering there

 

On the other hand, if you offer to help an old lady

across the street out of kindness, but you trip and

fall and push her by accident and she gets wasted

horribly by a bus in front a group of schoolchildren,

your karma is still good... your intent, in your

heart, was pure, and thus karmic justice will not

visit upon you.

 

Everything is a series of cause and effect

relationships; our perceptions are the filters of the

souls that feed the vast wheel of karma and determine

the paths our lives take us on.

 

Essentially, to paraphrase H.H. The Dalai Lama, 'It is

not whether we succeed or fail in life, but at the

end, knowing we did the right thing.'

 

I have been studying buddhism for years, and I have

often found that many conceots are very misaligned in

our societey in the west, partly I think because of

language barriers; so we bastardize the meanings of

certain terms. I do love the discourse though; Im by

no means an expert but I have probably read more than

most, at least in terms of the Mahayana Path.

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

 

dave <dave4sale [dave4sale]

 

>>i didn't wish to offend anyone's beliefs. i just don't understand

karma and i was hoping someone could enlighten me.<<

 

Here's a view you won't get too often...karma depends on your belief system.

You change, it changes. As you evolve, it expands to move beyond some of

the rigid implications of what's been said. Do some reading to figure out

which one is a comfortable starting for you.

 

 

>>...i have unfortunately come across some christians who insist " you're

going to hell if you don't believe jesus is your savior " .<<

 

These folks are part of your challenge in finding a path that works for you.

After a while, a simple smile and " no thank you " will resolve that

challenge.

 

 

>>...it just represents an interpretation of christianity which is not very

open-minded.<<

 

This single comment describes some members of all faiths. Get use to it!!

 

 

>>...sprirituality related issue i personal have trouble with is justifying

one's behavior solely because it is accepted by their particular dogma (e.g.

it's ok to eat meat because in the bible it says god created animals for

humans to use for their benefit).<<

 

If it's not your belief, and you have no internal conflict with it, then

what's the problem?

 

 

> " How many wars have been fought in the name of religion or some other

belief? " <

>>I agree...beliefs are dangerous if interpreted by dangerous people. but

even some goodnatured people can be led astray.<<

 

Interesting...so you think good natured people are weak minded and can't

make the best decision for themselves?

 

 

> " How many people who believe in karma have you discussed this issue with? "

>>Quite a few classmates over the years. <<

 

If you're already heard about karma (from quite a few), then why are you

asking a group of strangers about it?

 

 

> " What did they say? " >>Some have argued that everyone acts at least

partially out of self-interest, what matters is that people who believe in

karma don't harm people.<<

 

I believe that if I'm caught speeding, I'll get a speeding ticket. I still

speed. So, your logic is somehow flawed.

 

People who believe in karma do believe something. I'm not sure that your

conclusion is descriptive of what they believe.

 

 

> " What did you find that " didn't work " for you? " >>...it...doesn't work for

me [because]... " what goes around comes around " doesn't work out in life (at

least not this one).<<

 

I suggest several reasons why...your life experience is not vast enough yet

to have seen it, or you have been occupied by other things when it did

happen.

 

 

>>...look at OJ simpson- a lot of people believe he is guilty- including the

civil court- and yet he is free and still has plenty of fans and money.<<

 

I happen to know a considerable number of people who would disagree with

your example. If it is not a good example, then it cannot prove your first

point.

 

 

>>second, i personally find believing something is " only wrong if you get

caught " or in the case of karma, because it will come back to you, to be

rather ingenuine.<<

 

Then don't believe it!! Once this concept starts to live in your heart,

very little else will matter to you about what other people think.

 

 

>>I was raised as a christian. You misunderstood me. I am not saying

that all christians care about is what happens to them in the

afterlife. Just that the main reason emphasized by proponents of

christianity to be good is that you'll go to hell if you don't.<<

 

Conflicts in one's belief system is where growth occurs. After a while,

those reasons cease to matter. What matters is what makes sense to you. It

will eventually form who are.

 

 

 

> Morality is another wholly different domain of who we are.< >> I agree.

but all too often it seems, people fail to think for themselves and instead

go along with what the majority believes is correct. Going along with what

" everyone " else thinks is right doesn't make you unique or complex.<<

 

People go along because it's easier than to think for themselves. It's a

fact of life.

 

 

>...one reason the world is so chaotic right now...And, your suggestion to

fix this chaos would be?<

>>Raise children differently. try to get them to grasp the " do onto others

what you would have them do unto you " concept more than the " one more word

and you're grounded mentality " that a lot of parents take. also be better

models and practice what we preach. easier said than done, i know.<<

 

All are good suggestions. I conclude that you don't have any kids yet.

Somehow, that one single event throws a lot of " flies into the ointment. "

 

Christianity is but one of the moral systems we as humans have to choose

from. Whether it's the best or the worst is not for me to say. Your

questions seem genuine. Maybe the answers are not found in what you already

know?

 

 

>>...the issue of whether people can ever be truly altruistic has no easy,

straight forward answer.<<

 

Welcome to the human race!! This is not one of the first questions I'd try

to resolve.

 

 

 

> Speak for yourself, and give others the chance to do the same. "

>>I didn't type " in my opinion " or " i think " before everything i wrote

because i thought that would get tedious and also, isnt it obvious

whatever i type is my opinion? this is a forum after all.<<

 

I don't mean to mince words. I'm referring to your repeated usage of " other

people " and what they seem to believe rather than what you believe.

 

This is indeed a forum, and all I intended to say was " speak for yourself "

and not to project meaning that may not exist onto others. Look at your OJ

example, your circle of friends is not the whole world, and your conclusions

are quite different from mine.

 

 

>>I have very different opinions from many people i meet.<<

 

So do I. I'm stating them. I welcome yours!

 

 

>>does it make my opinion or theirs any less valid? of course not.<<

 

Opinions are fine, as long as they are kept in perspective. Opinions can

still be il-formed logically. That what philosophy classes are for...

 

 

>>Personally I do find the bush administration's war plans unethical because

they are (a) lying to us saying that their main concern is that Husein has

weapons- there are many other countries that we know for sure have weapons,

what about them? (b) willing to risk human life- both those of soldiers and

of Iraqi civilians, not to mention Israeli civilians when Iraq retaliates-

for oil © planning to go to war despite major protest within our own

country- granted this reason is more a fault of the US's lack of true

democracy than Bush's. (d) the oil Bush seeks will directly benefit bush

and oil tycoons, not the employees of oil companies, the poor, or even the

consumers of oil.<<

 

An interesting argument that fails on every points.

 

Item (a) accuses lying and the second point does not follow the first.

While both may in fact be true, they are not related logically.

 

Item (b) offers an assertion that is untrue on it's face. The firefighters

in NYC were willing to risk their lives in the WTC, and many did in fact

die. Were they unethical?

 

Item © suggests that war is done by committee. We have an elected

Cammander In Chief to make that decision. If he does it over protests, is

he unethical? Not logical!!

 

Item (d) suggests that the powers at the top " should " act in ways contrary

to their best interest. Again, this is not logical. It's terrible for

those who get stepped on, but that's quite a different issue.

 

 

>>do you believe that because you went to war, your opinions on whether

or not we go to war in iraq are more valid than those who have not?<<

 

No!! After having gone to war, I do have a broader perspective for

evaluating the " whole " question of war. My life experience provides me a

richer set of options for assessing the alternatives. Will I be any more

" right " in my assessment than you? That's not for me to decide or for you.

 

 

If it was our job to do such an assessment, I'd place mine on the table next

to yours, and out peers would decide.

 

 

>>...i don't think you need to have been in a war to feel that they are

wrong.<<

 

Rather than pontificating about it, just explain why war is bad and

unnecessary.

 

 

>>...i am not sure I am even against all wars.<<

 

Okay, so this is an evolving belief for you, yes?

 

 

>>...The reason I am against most war is because I feel it is

hypocritical.<<

 

You're right! Not knowing what to do when faced with war or violence is a

real " bitch, " but in this world somebody thinks it's their job, and inspite

of the disagreements a lot of it works okay.

 

 

>>...aren't we basically saying our lives are more important than theirs.

in iraq or afghanistan, it is true that many of their people are being

harmed by their own leaders. that doesn't mean we are justified in blowing

them up though.<<

 

You present an interesting (maybe even conflicting) sense of ethics. When

is it right and when is it wrong? It's okay for them and not for us.

You're anti war yet, well...maybe in WWII. My mind hurts thinking about the

complexity you create.

 

DaveO

[Guest guest]

 

Mr.Graves [sleepingtao]

>>...karma works in the sense that we are all

interconnected, and harming another really serves to

harm yourself...<<

 

This is the only message about karma that I really need to know.

 

 

>>...not all interperetations of karma are the same<<

 

Looking closely, our language actually tells us more about the world that we

often acknowledge. I might ask, " How do you see karma? " Translation: how

do you represent karma in your mind?

 

Here's DaveO's view of reality: reality " presents " itself to us thru the

senses we choose to utilize. From the sensory inputs we receive and

process, we then " RE present " our version of reality to ourselves

" internally. " Keep in mind, now there are two versions of reality--the one

" out there " somewhere and the one " inside me " somewhere. The chances of

them being exactly identical are statistically remote.

 

What does this mean? Well, when we talk about karma, or anything else for

that matter, our words betray how we have ordered that " version " of reality

in our minds. Some orderings are quite rigid, and others are more fluid.

Is one better version than the other? Well...that all depends on how you

have ordered the other images/versions of reality in your mind.

 

Here's the nice part of this puzzle. Over time we usually agree that

certain things (i.e., certain versions of reality) have the same meaning.

So, when I used the word " tomato, " most of us envision much the same thing.

As people explore the meaning of the " images in their head " (i.e., their

versions of reality) and they re assess a particular image, their subsequent

re expression of that image might create conflict where none had been in the

past.

 

Today's food for thought...

 

DaveO

[Guest guest]

 

Mr.Graves [sleepingtao]

 

>>[regarding karma]...those are myths based on primitive interperetations of

the karmic wheel.<<

 

Myth--what a wonderful word!! The truths of one age become the myths of

another.

 

I wonder what " truths " of today will become the " myths " of " 2150 A.D " ?

Hmmm, BTW that's also the title of an interesting book by Thea Alexander

about personal growth and finding inner self.

 

 

>>...Everything is a series of cause and effect relationships; our

perceptions are the filters of the souls that feed the vast wheel of karma

and determine the paths our lives take us on.<<

 

This is actually quite profound. Thanks, Keith.

 

DaveO