Guest guest Posted February 4, 2003 Report Share Posted February 4, 2003 ah, ok, actually its kinda gross, but ill fill you in. Cheese is made with rennet, which is made from the meaty, tasty inside linings of (usually) a veal calfs stomach... like a suasage casing, ground up and added to the cheese, in a way. The rennet is used to hold the cheese together, so a lot of soft gooey cheeses dont have rennet; you have to go on a case by case basis. Anyways, what it ends up being is the stomach meats of the animal are inside the cheese; most cheese isnt even vegetarian (not to mention vegan) But. there is hope.. there's another process (rarely used) that replaces the rennet with microbial enzymes to hold the cheese together.. it's still not vegan, and still bad for your health and promotes all the same nasty stuff as steak, but it is 'vegetarian' in the sense that the actual cellular structure of meat is nowhere to be found in the 'rennet-free' cheese. I can look up some links if you are interested:D -k- --- daveo <daveo wrote: > > Maybe you can be more specific...I've heard this > repeatedly from other > vegans, but none have had anything more specific > than well... " so and so told > me. " > > DaveO > > > > > > Mr.Graves [sleepingtao] > > >>...eating cheese isnt even vegetarian. cheese has > an > actual animal flesh inside it, in derivitive. Most > people dont like to admit that, especially > 'vegetarians' but unless your cheese has microbial > enzyme in it, you are consuming the inside of a > calfs > stomach with it.<< > > > > > > > > ===== Where is this beauty? I search and search and then find, We are the lotus. Om Mani Padme Hum Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2003 Report Share Posted February 4, 2003 > But. there is hope.. there's another process (rarely > used) Cheese with non-animal based rennet is readily available at Whole Foods and I've even seen in it Safeway stores in the San Francisco Bay Area recently. Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2003 Report Share Posted February 4, 2003 These two excerpts look to be a parts of the cheese puzzle...maybe from a broader perspective. " ... " In days gone by, " chymosin was extracted from dried calf stomachs for this purpose, but the cheesemaking industry has expanded beyond the supply of available calf stomachs (remember that these have to be from young calves). It turns out that " many proteases are able " to coagulate milk by converting casein to paracasein and alternatives to chymosin are readily available. " Rennet " is the name given to any enzymatic preparation that clots milk. " [emphasis added] Source: http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/stomach/rennin.htm l Of course, " casein " is not a vegan product, but it is a L-O vegetarian product. " ...Until 1990, the only source of rennin was calves. Since chymosin is the most important enzyme in rennin for coagulating milk, scientists created a " system to make chymosin that doesn't require calves. " Using genetic engineering, the " gene for chymosin " was cut from a calf cell and inserted into the " genomes of bacteria and yeast. " The microbes make an exact copy of the calf chymosin. Microbes replicate and grow rapidly, and can be grown continuously. Thus, the supply of rennet is assured. Approximately 70% of the cheese made in the U.S. is coagulated using chymosin. " [emphasis added] Source: http://www.usu.edu/biotech/education_outreach/cheese_lab.html So, it looks to me as if this discussion just became totally " academic. " DaveO Mr.Graves [sleepingtao] >>...Cheese is made with rennet...used to hold the cheese together...it ends up being...the stomach meats of the animal...most cheese isnt even vegetarian (not to mention vegan) -k- --- daveo <daveo wrote: > > Maybe you can be more specific...I've heard this > repeatedly from other vegans, but none have had > anything more specific than well... " so and so told > me. " > > DaveO > > > Mr.Graves [sleepingtao] > > >>...eating cheese isnt even vegetarian. cheese has > an > actual animal flesh inside it, in derivitive. Most > people dont like to admit that, especially > 'vegetarians' but unless your cheese has microbial > enzyme in it, you are consuming the inside of a > calfs > stomach with it.<< > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2003 Report Share Posted February 4, 2003 neat links.. let me share a couple with you, just on the otherside; these ones say there are actually only 2 cheeses in all of the USA that are vegan.. http://www.ivu.org/faq/eggsdairy.html plus there are other cool links to jump off from there of course everything has to be taken with some grain of salt, your side and mine both. -k- --- daveo <daveo wrote: > > These two excerpts look to be a parts of the cheese > puzzle...maybe from a > broader perspective. > > > " ... " In days gone by, " > > chymosin was extracted from dried calf stomachs for > this purpose, but the > cheesemaking industry has expanded beyond the supply > of available calf > stomachs (remember that these have to be from young > calves). It turns out > that > > " many proteases are able " > > to coagulate milk by converting casein to paracasein > and alternatives to > chymosin are readily available. " Rennet " is the name > given to any enzymatic > preparation that clots milk. " [emphasis added] > Source: > http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/stomach/rennin.htm > l > > Of course, " casein " is not a vegan product, but it > is a L-O vegetarian > product. > > > " ...Until 1990, the only source of rennin was > calves. Since chymosin is the > most important enzyme in rennin for coagulating > milk, scientists created a > " system to make chymosin that doesn't require > calves. " > > Using genetic engineering, the " gene for chymosin " > was cut from a calf cell > and inserted into the " genomes of bacteria and > yeast. " > > The microbes make an exact copy of the calf > chymosin. Microbes replicate and > grow rapidly, and can be grown continuously. Thus, > the supply of rennet is > assured. Approximately 70% of the cheese made in the > U.S. is coagulated > using chymosin. " [emphasis added] Source: > http://www.usu.edu/biotech/education_outreach/cheese_lab.html > > So, it looks to me as if this discussion just became > totally " academic. " > > DaveO > > > > > > > Mr.Graves [sleepingtao] > > >>...Cheese is made with rennet...used to hold the > cheese together...it ends > up being...the stomach meats of the animal...most > cheese isnt even > vegetarian (not to mention vegan) > > -k- > --- daveo <daveo wrote: > > > > Maybe you can be more specific...I've heard this > > repeatedly from other vegans, but none have had > > anything more specific than well... " so and so told > > me. " > > > > DaveO > > > > > > Mr.Graves [sleepingtao] > > > > >>...eating cheese isnt even vegetarian. cheese > has > > an > > actual animal flesh inside it, in derivitive. Most > > people dont like to admit that, especially > > 'vegetarians' but unless your cheese has microbial > > enzyme in it, you are consuming the inside of a > > calfs > > stomach with it.<< > > > > > > ===== Where is this beauty? I search and search and then find, We are the lotus. Om Mani Padme Hum Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2003 Report Share Posted February 4, 2003 I don't see a conflict with any of the links and don't see it as " your side or mine. " None of my links came from the veggie world but instead from a body of knowledge that we all must rely on to make choices. That information speaks clearly for itself, and sadly, " reporting something as true " from a vegan point of view " does not make it so " for everyone else. DaveO Mr.Graves [sleepingtao] neat links.. let me share a couple with you, just on the otherside; these ones say there are actually only 2 cheeses in all of the USA that are vegan.. http://www.ivu.org/faq/eggsdairy.html plus there are other cool links to jump off from there of course everything has to be taken with some grain of salt, your side and mine both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2003 Report Share Posted February 4, 2003 I have to add my thoughts and agree with Dave here. I personally like my information from a non biased third party source. Propaganda is rampant, and is so damaging to our choices! Warmly, Allison --- daveo <daveo wrote: > > I don't see a conflict with any of the links and > don't see it as " your side > or mine. " > > None of my links came from the veggie world but > instead from a body of > knowledge that we all must rely on to make choices. > That information speaks > clearly for itself, and sadly, " reporting something > as true " from a vegan > point of view " does not make it so " for everyone > else. > > DaveO > > > > > > Mr.Graves [sleepingtao] > > neat links.. let me share a couple with you, just on > the otherside; these ones say there are actually > only > 2 cheeses in all of the USA that are vegan.. > > http://www.ivu.org/faq/eggsdairy.html > plus there are other cool links to jump off from > there > > of course everything has to be taken with some grain > of salt, your side and mine both. > > > > > Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2003 Report Share Posted February 4, 2003 Hi, Gary, You make the point very well, which is exactly what my two prior posts suggested. " Rennin " and " rennet " are not the same thing, and since 1990, the chief coagulate used in cheese making has been rennet. So, while other factors make cheese a non-vegan food, it is a fine vegetarian food. I'm also in the SF Bay Area and I know it's readily available in a number of stores. DaveO gsmattingly [gsmattingly] Tuesday, February 04, 2003 12:35 PM Re: cheesy vegetarians > But. there is hope.. there's another process (rarely > used) Cheese with non-animal based rennet is readily available at Whole Foods and I've even seen in it Safeway stores in the San Francisco Bay Area recently. Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2003 Report Share Posted February 4, 2003 i try very hard to avoid cheese, but i sometimes end up buying food with small amounts of cheese in it because it's cheaper. usually when i buy a pizza i buy amy's soy cheese pizza. but i noticed it says contains milk protein. obviously it's not really vegan then, so my question is, is that soy cheese really vegetarian? , " Mr.Graves " <sleepingtao> wrote: > ah, ok, actually its kinda gross, but ill fill you in. > Cheese is made with rennet, which is made from the > meaty, tasty inside linings of (usually) a veal calfs > stomach... like a suasage casing, ground up and added > to the cheese, in a way. The rennet is used to hold > the cheese together, so a lot of soft gooey cheeses > dont have rennet; you have to go on a case by case > basis. > > Anyways, what it ends up being is the stomach meats of > the animal are inside the cheese; most cheese isnt > even vegetarian (not to mention vegan) > > But. there is hope.. there's another process (rarely > used) that replaces the rennet with microbial enzymes > to hold the cheese together.. it's still not vegan, > and still bad for your health and promotes all the > same nasty stuff as steak, but it is 'vegetarian' in > the sense that the actual cellular structure of meat > is nowhere to be found in the 'rennet-free' cheese. > > I can look up some links if you are interested:D > > -k- > --- daveo <daveo@m...> wrote: > > > > Maybe you can be more specific...I've heard this > > repeatedly from other > > vegans, but none have had anything more specific > > than well... " so and so told > > me. " > > > > DaveO > > > > > > > > > > > > Mr.Graves [sleepingtao] > > > > >>...eating cheese isnt even vegetarian. cheese has > > an > > actual animal flesh inside it, in derivitive. Most > > people dont like to admit that, especially > > 'vegetarians' but unless your cheese has microbial > > enzyme in it, you are consuming the inside of a > > calfs > > stomach with it.<< > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > Where is this beauty? > > I search and search and then find, > > We are the lotus. > > > > Om Mani Padme Hum > > > > > Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2003 Report Share Posted February 4, 2003 Actually, today I don't avoid cheese the way I once did while eating out. To be vegan, soy cheese would have to use " rennet " (the generic name for the process that does not use animal byproducts) as it's coagulate. DaveO dave <dave4sale [dave4sale] i try very hard to avoid cheese, but i sometimes end up buying food with small amounts of cheese in it because it's cheaper. usually when i buy a pizza i buy amy's soy cheese pizza. but i noticed it says contains milk protein. obviously it's not really vegan then, so my question is, is that soy cheese really vegetarian? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2003 Report Share Posted February 4, 2003 i know the reason that they often put egg / dairy products into vegetarian foods is because they are cheap thanks to government subsidies (and maybe in the case of dairy, to make it taste better or at least more " meat-like " ), but why in the world do they put casein in soy cheese? i'd rather eat a lower protein soy cheese that was really vegan. , gsmattingly@a... wrote: > Hi, > > >is that soy cheese really vegetarian? > > Why would soy cheese not be vegetarian? > It might not be vegan (see this web page > I just found). > > <http://veggietable.allinfo-about.com/faq/fq-substitutions.html> > > or this: > > <http://vegetarian.about.com/library/glossary/bldef-soychs.htm> > " Soy Cheese > Definition: Products which substitute for dairy cheese and > available in a wide variety of flavors, often containing tofu > or cashews. Vegans beware: some soy cheeses contain casein, > an enzyme derived from dairy milk. " > > But I have never seen any indication that soy > cheese is not vegetarian, at least ova-lacto vegetarian. > > Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2003 Report Share Posted February 4, 2003 --- daveo <daveo wrote: > Hi, Gary, > > You make the point very well, which is exactly what > my two prior posts > suggested. > > " Rennin " and " rennet " are not the same thing, and > since 1990, the chief > coagulate used in cheese making has been rennet. > So, while other factors > make cheese a non-vegan food, it is a fine > vegetarian food. > > I'm also in the SF Bay Area and I know it's readily > available in a number of > stores. > > DaveO > > > > > gsmattingly > [gsmattingly] > Tuesday, February 04, 2003 12:35 PM > > Re: cheesy vegetarians > > > > But. there is hope.. there's another process > (rarely > > used) > > Cheese with non-animal based rennet is readily > available > at Whole Foods and I've even seen in it Safeway > stores > in the San Francisco Bay Area recently. > > Gary > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2003 Report Share Posted February 4, 2003 I thought id clear something up; I only gave a quick summary of what the whole nonvegetarian cheese thing is... since using a pro-vegetarian site as resource is 'propaganda' to some (everything is propaganda to me) I'll just use this source, which is fairly neutral.. although it bugs me to think people are content to assume a university ssource os onjective and a political source isnt.. they both have vested interests. Its amazing some of the horrendous things the academic world has worked very hard to justify in our society. Anyways, here it is, you should read it all, the part about rennet at the bottom is pretty scary... and shows that regardless of how your cheese is labelled, it may still not be vegetarian, if i read it right: What are coagulating enzymes and how do they create cheese? In order for milk to coagulate and eventually become cheese, enzymes must be added to breakdown the proteins that keep milk a liquid. Some enzymes do this better than others, but all of these enzymes are in the protein breaking subclass known as proteases. The best proteases or coagulants for making cheese are the type that break a specific protein called kappa casein. When the kappa casein is broken the milk loses its liquid infrastructure and begins to coagulate. What are Rennet, Rennin, and Chymosin? Rennet is defined in Webster's Unabridged Dictionary as " the lining membrane of the fourth stomach of the calf (and/or) a preparation or extract of the rennet membrane, used to curdle milk, as in making cheese…. " Rennet is also used broadly to describe any enzyme used for the coagulation of milk in the process of making cheese. Rennin is defined as " a coagulating enzyme occurring in the gastric juice of the calf, forming the active principal of rennet and able to curdle milk. " The cheese industry uses a broader definition of the term rennin, referring to it as " any enzyme used for the controlled coagulation of milk. " Chymosin, often used as another word for rennin, is the most common enzyme recovered from rennet. Types Of Coagulating Enzymes Used To Make Cheese Animal rennin is the coagulating enzyme (rennin or chymosin) that is harvested from the stomachs of calves. Vegetable rennet is a misnomer given that the definition of rennet recognizes it strictly as an animal derived substance. Although cheese has been made using enzymes from the Lady Bedstraw, Stinging Nettle, and Thistle flower, the term vegetable rennet is most commonly used when describing enzymes produced using microbes. " Vegetable rennet " is sometimes used more generally to describe any non-animal rennet. Microbial rennets are enzymes derived from a controlled fermentation of a fungus (e.g., Mucor Pusillus, Mucor Miehi, and Endothia Cryphonectria) or microbial rennets. However, microbial rennets cannot be used to produce cheddar or hard cheeses, limiting their application as an alternative to animal or bioengineered rennets. Genetically engineered rennets. Shortages and fluctuations in the available supplies of calf rennet prompted the development of genetically engineered rennet. Food scientists can however produce a continuous and pure source of microbial chymosin by incorporating a calf's prochymosin gene into a microorganism. The first microbial chymosin was affirmed GRAS (generally recognized as safe) by the FDA in 1989, with many others following shortly thereafter. Currently, it is estimated that 50% of the chymosin used is produced by transgenic means. Rennetless. The term " rennetless " is used to mean two things in the cheese world. First, rennetless cheeses are also called " acid precipitated cheeses " and include cottage cheese, ricotta, and some mozzarella. These types of cheese are created using their natural acid levels and do not require the addition of a coagulating enzyme. The second interpretation of " rennetless " cheese is any cheese made without the use of animal derived coagulants. Why Is Rennet Controversial? Historically rennet was extracted from calf stomachs by killing the calves, cutting the stomach into strips, scraping the lining to remove surface fat, stretching it onto racks where moisture is removed, grinding it and then finally mixing it with a salt solution until the rennin is extracted. Today the use of animal rennin is controversial to a variety of cheese consumers. The main positions are subdivided below. Animal rights. Animal rights activists argue that it is inhumane to kill calves for their stomach enzymes, especially when there are several alternative coagulants available to make cheese. These activists would argue that if you eat cheese, then purchase one that is made using cloned or microbial enzymes. Vegetarianism. Vegetarians can have a confusing time trying to figure out what type of coagulant is acceptable in their cheese. While some vegetarians would strictly adhere to a non-dairy diet, others who eat dairy are content to allow microbial coagulants and some can accept cloned chymosin as a reasonable alternative to using calf rennet. Several vegetarian organizations accept the use of cloned animal enzymes as a reasonable alternative to the animal rennet derived from the killing of calves. Bioengineering. Genetic engineering has brought new ways to create chymosin for use in cheese making. Originally, a prochymosin gene was injected into a host strain of E Coli K-12, creating a tiny enzyme factory that produced an extremely pure and recoverable chymosin for use in cheese production. Current technology cuts genes from a calf cell and injects it into the genomes of bacteria and yeast. This produces high quality chymosin that is not subject to the volatile market for animal derived rennet. It is estimated that 70% of domestic cheese is produced with bioengineered chymosin. For a consumer who does not want bioengineered foods, animal or microbial rennet should be their choice. Religion. Some orthodox religions (Jewish and Islam) have specific requirements and prohibitions for the consumption of meat products that can preclude the use of animal rennet. For example, information received from Dr. Chaudry of the Islamic Food and Nutrition Council of America (IFNCA), stated that for a food to be " Halal " (permitted for consumption by Muslims), it must be void of certain animal products and processing procedures. In this case, cheeses that are made from animal rennet are only excluded if the calf is slaughtered improperly or is contaminated with other prohibited ingredients or procedures. The IFNCA recommends the use of microbial or bioengineered chymosin for cheese making. Current Problems With Cheese Coagulants There are two major problems that arise for consumers and buyers when trying to distinguish the types of rennet in a particular cheese. Labeling. There is no requirement for a cheese ingredient label to distinguish between the types of rennet that it may or may not contain. In fact, a cursory review of cheese labels at our 6th and Lamar store in Austin, Texas revealed at least 8 different ways that the coagulating enzymes were identified. They include, enzymes, microbial enzymes, microbial enzymes (non-animal, rennetless), rennetless, rennet, enzymes and rennet, vegetarian rennet, and microbial coagulants. A significant portion of the surveyed cheese labels simply said enzymes, while several labels did not list the type of coagulant used at all. Obviously this type of labeling hurts cheese buyers as well as consumers. For a store cheese buyer, it is a challenge to track down cheeses that list the type(s) of coagulants used, while for the consumer, buying cheese products with a full understanding of the ingredients is next to impossible. Some companies have taken the time to list whether the cheese they make contains a particular type of enzyme, but these are few and far between. Enzyme mixing. Compounding the labeling problem is the fact that cheese producers can mix animal, plant, and microbial enzymes under one ingredient listing called " enzymes " . The FDA determined that it would be impractical for individual cheese packers to have on hand all the variations of labels needed to properly designate all cheese enzyme mixtures. http://www.wholefoods.com/healthinfo/rennet.html ===== Where is this beauty? I search and search and then find, We are the lotus. Om Mani Padme Hum Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2003 Report Share Posted February 4, 2003 Interesting...a few more details are added...I'm not quite sure how the dialogue has changed. DaveO Mr.Graves [sleepingtao] I thought id clear something up; I only gave a quick summary of what the whole nonvegetarian cheese thing is... since using a pro-vegetarian site as resource is 'propaganda' to some (everything is propaganda to me) I'll just use this source, which is fairly neutral.. although it bugs me to think people are content to assume a university ssource os onjective and a political source isnt.. they both have vested interests. Its amazing some of the horrendous things the academic world has worked very hard to justify in our society. Anyways, here it is, you should read it all, the part about rennet at the bottom is pretty scary... and shows that regardless of how your cheese is labelled, it may still not be vegetarian, if i read it right: What are coagulating enzymes and how do they create cheese? In order for milk to coagulate and eventually become cheese, enzymes must be added to breakdown the -----clipped----- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2003 Report Share Posted February 4, 2003 Soy cheese won't ahve rennet in it, will it? Ugh, that really grosses me out to think I've been eating the inside of a baby cows' stomache! I'm going to try really really hard not to eat any dairy now. What will it say on the label for the rennet? ~Sara > ah, ok, actually its kinda gross, but ill fill you in. > Cheese is made with rennet, which is made from the > meaty, tasty inside linings of (usually) a veal calfs > stomach... like a suasage casing, ground up and added > to the cheese, in a way. The rennet is used to hold > the cheese together, so a lot of soft gooey cheeses > dont have rennet; you have to go on a case by case > basis. > > Anyways, what it ends up being is the stomach meats of > the animal are inside the cheese; most cheese isnt > even vegetarian (not to mention vegan) > > But. there is hope.. there's another process (rarely > used) that replaces the rennet with microbial enzymes > to hold the cheese together.. it's still not vegan, > and still bad for your health and promotes all the > same nasty stuff as steak, but it is 'vegetarian' in > the sense that the actual cellular structure of meat > is nowhere to be found in the 'rennet-free' cheese. > > I can look up some links if you are interested:D > Entertainment-World/ TRL-artists-picsNfun/ TheWB-Chat/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2003 Report Share Posted February 4, 2003 At 01:05 AM 2/5/03 -0500, you wrote: >Soy cheese won't ahve rennet in it, will it? Ugh, that really grosses me out >to think I've been eating the inside of a baby cows' stomache! I'm going to >try really really hard not to eat any dairy now. What will it say on the >label for the rennet? >~Sara Well, even though there still seem to be some questions, the cheese I bought this weekend says on the outside " Vegetarian Enzymes " in the ingredients and it also has " Rennetless " in big letters on the front. My hope and belief is that it is indeed vegetarian. Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2003 Report Share Posted February 5, 2003 sometimes it will have the same products in it and not even say so.. there arent any real standards levels for packaging in this situation, so even if your cheese doesnt say rennet, and just says 'enzymes' or coagulants' it could still have it in the ingredients. You can find good safe cheeses on the net though. -k- --- Stuquartville wrote: > Soy cheese won't ahve rennet in it, will it? Ugh, > that really grosses me out > to think I've been eating the inside of a baby cows' > stomache! I'm going to > try really really hard not to eat any dairy now. > What will it say on the > label for the rennet? > ~Sara > > > > ah, ok, actually its kinda gross, but ill fill you > in. > > Cheese is made with rennet, which is made from the > > meaty, tasty inside linings of (usually) a veal > calfs > > stomach... like a suasage casing, ground up and > added > > to the cheese, in a way. The rennet is used to > hold > > the cheese together, so a lot of soft gooey > cheeses > > dont have rennet; you have to go on a case by case > > basis. > > > > Anyways, what it ends up being is the stomach > meats of > > the animal are inside the cheese; most cheese isnt > > even vegetarian (not to mention vegan) > > > > But. there is hope.. there's another process > (rarely > > used) that replaces the rennet with microbial > enzymes > > to hold the cheese together.. it's still not > vegan, > > and still bad for your health and promotes all the > > same nasty stuff as steak, but it is 'vegetarian' > in > > the sense that the actual cellular structure of > meat > > is nowhere to be found in the 'rennet-free' > cheese. > > > > I can look up some links if you are interested:D > > > > > > Entertainment-World/ > TRL-artists-picsNfun/ > TheWB-Chat/ > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > ===== Where is this beauty? I search and search and then find, We are the lotus. Om Mani Padme Hum Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2003 Report Share Posted February 5, 2003 Sorry, what I meant to ask was whether soy cheese has the lining of a baby cow's stomache in it. ~Sara > > >is that soy cheese really vegetarian? > > Why would soy cheese not be vegetarian? > It might not be vegan (see this web page > I just found). Entertainment-World/ TRL-artists-picsNfun/ TheWB-Chat/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2003 Report Share Posted February 5, 2003 I'm not a vegan or political in my views in vegetarianism at all....but this sounds an awful lot like rationalizing something so you don't feel guilty about it. If you are very strict in your views about rennet or not, the best suggestion would be to call the cheese's company and ask for a confirmation directly. Yes, you may have to go through some red tape, but I have done things like this in the past and really it's the only way to be sure of the nature of some ingrediants.And more than likely if the person making the phone call does not sound like an annoyed trial lawyer the company is more than happy to provide the information. Tell them you have an allergy....they almost ALWAYS cough up a plethora of info. But really all you guys are doing now is the battle of wills. It doesn't sound like anybody is really convincing anyone of anything. When it comes right down to it...people are going to believe in what they want and need to believe in. And the whole " convince me " arguement is mind-numbing. Convince yourself. Research through the proper channels. Me personally however, if I were a strict vegetarian and there was any question of the claims of rennet and such, it seems it would be best just to avoid the offending product until totally proven it didn't have animal-derived products in it. Especially since it is quite easy to find KNOWN safe products. The speculation going on from both sides is killing me though... , " daveo " <daveo@m...> wrote: > > Interesting...a few more details are added...I'm not quite sure how the > dialogue has changed. > > DaveO > > > > > > Mr.Graves [sleepingtao] > > I thought id clear something up; I only gave a quick > summary of what the whole nonvegetarian cheese thing > is... since using a pro-vegetarian site as resource is 'propaganda' to some > (everything is propaganda to me) I'll just use this source, which is fairly > neutral.. although it bugs me to think people are content to assume a > university ssource os onjective and a political source isnt.. they both have > vested interests. Its amazing some of the horrendous things the academic > world has worked very hard to justify in our society. Anyways, here it is, > you should read it all, the part about rennet at the bottom is pretty > scary... and shows that regardless of how your cheese is labelled, it may > still not be vegetarian, if i read it right: > > What are coagulating enzymes and how do they create > cheese? > In order for milk to coagulate and eventually become > cheese, enzymes must be added to breakdown the > -----clipped----- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2003 Report Share Posted February 5, 2003 i disagree. I dont think there's any battle of wills, dave and i always seem to share info this way, even off the , in private. The whole concept to me was that different sources, both reliable, would give you nearly opposite information... it's really a dialectic process, thesis, antithises, synthesis. And in the end, I got to see the source that dave got his info from and learn from it, so now i have more info and im grateful.. cause honestly, the idea made me get up off my butt and learn more about it. i just avoid cheese whenever i can... although im not perfect.. i was overjoyed to find soy cheese in a market last week, took it home, and found casien, spelled differently on it.. did some research, found out it was the same casien... but i didnt feel like a murderer. I wouldnt go calling companies, though, the amount of time on the phone isnt worth my money, but thats just me. I think if we refrain from opposing each others views, we do each other a disservice... as long as we have the humility and maturity to do it respectfully and mindfull of our own ignorance. But Im an avid r to Socrates and Plato's dialectics. I just think if no one disagreed, maybe we'd all still be eating greaseburgers right now. -k- --- " Jennifer <m0lebul0r " <m0lebul0r wrote: > I'm not a vegan or political in my views in > vegetarianism at > all....but this sounds an awful lot like > rationalizing something so > you don't feel guilty about it. > If you are very strict in your views about rennet > or not, the best > suggestion would be to call the cheese's company and > ask for a > confirmation directly. Yes, you may have to go > through some red tape, > but I have done things like this in the past and > really it's the only > way to be sure of the nature of some ingrediants.And > more than likely > if the person making the phone call does not sound > like an annoyed > trial lawyer the company is more than happy to > provide the > information. Tell them you have an allergy....they > almost ALWAYS > cough up a plethora of info. > But really all you guys are doing now is the > battle of wills. It > doesn't sound like anybody is really convincing > anyone of anything. > When it comes right down to it...people are going to > believe in what > they want and need to believe in. And the whole > " convince me " > arguement is mind-numbing. Convince yourself. > Research through the > proper channels. > Me personally however, if I were a strict vegetarian > and there was > any question of the claims of rennet and such, it > seems it would be > best just to avoid the offending product until > totally proven it > didn't have animal-derived products in it. > Especially since it is > quite easy to find KNOWN safe products. The > speculation going on from > both sides is killing me though... > > > , " daveo " > <daveo@m...> wrote: > > > > Interesting...a few more details are added...I'm > not quite sure how > the > > dialogue has changed. > > > > DaveO > > > > > > > > > > > > Mr.Graves [sleepingtao] > > > > I thought id clear something up; I only gave a > quick > > summary of what the whole nonvegetarian cheese > thing > > is... since using a pro-vegetarian site as > resource is 'propaganda' > to some > > (everything is propaganda to me) I'll just use > this source, which > is fairly > > neutral.. although it bugs me to think people are > content to assume > a > > university ssource os onjective and a political > source isnt.. they > both have > > vested interests. Its amazing some of the > horrendous things the > academic > > world has worked very hard to justify in our > society. Anyways, here > it is, > > you should read it all, the part about rennet at > the bottom is > pretty > > scary... and shows that regardless of how your > cheese is labelled, > it may > > still not be vegetarian, if i read it right: > > > > What are coagulating enzymes and how do they > create > > cheese? > > In order for milk to coagulate and eventually > become > > cheese, enzymes must be added to breakdown the > > -----clipped----- > > ===== Where is this beauty? I search and search and then find, We are the lotus. Om Mani Padme Hum Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2003 Report Share Posted February 5, 2003 On Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:22:39 -0800 (PST), you wrote: >But. there is hope.. there's another process (rarely >used) that replaces the rennet with microbial enzymes >to hold the cheese together.. it's still not vegan, >and still bad for your health and promotes all the I don't think it's 'rarely used' anymore, I think it's quite common. There are a whole lot of rennetless cheeses around, if you look for them. Pat -- Pat Meadows CLICK DAILY TO FEED THE HUNGRY United States: http://www.stopthehunger.com/ International: http://www.thehungersite.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2003 Report Share Posted February 5, 2003 On Tue, 04 Feb 2003 20:35:26 +0000, you wrote: >> But. there is hope.. there's another process (rarely >> used) > >Cheese with non-animal based rennet is readily available >at Whole Foods and I've even seen in it Safeway stores >in the San Francisco Bay Area recently. Yes, I've often seen rennetless cheese too - in Whole FOods, in a natural foods store, in a co-op, and in regular supermarkets. I don't think that the soft cheeses - cottage cheese, cream cheese, ricotta - use rennet at all. You can certainly make these cheese using lemon juice as a coagulant. Pat -- Pat Meadows CLICK DAILY TO FEED THE HUNGRY United States: http://www.stopthehunger.com/ International: http://www.thehungersite.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2003 Report Share Posted February 5, 2003 On Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:51:40 -0800 (PST), you wrote: >sometimes it will have the same products in it and not >even say so.. there arent any real standards levels >for packaging in this situation, so even if your >cheese doesnt say rennet, and just says 'enzymes' or >coagulants' it could still have it in the ingredients. >You can find good safe cheeses on the net though. Conversely, the cheese that says 'Rennet-free' or words to that effect, can be assumed to be telling the truth. I see - in the quote someone posted - that I was correct -the soft cheese (cottage cheese, ricotta, cream cheese and similar) don't have rennet in any event. Pat -- Pat Meadows CLICK DAILY TO FEED THE HUNGRY United States: http://www.stopthehunger.com/ International: http://www.thehungersite.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2003 Report Share Posted February 5, 2003 just because the words rennet arent on the package, doesnt mean the same enzymes arent being used... they outlined that on that site i gave.. sometimes they call them 'coagulants' or 'enzymes' but its alot of the same thing. 'Vegetarian' rennet, isnt even rennet, and it's almost always labelled microbial enzymes, if im correct (and i could very well be wrong, i dont live in the US either so I dont know if its different for you guys who do) Of course, none of that changes the fact that eating cheese and drinking milk directly supports the veal industry, and actually stimulates it. --- Pat Meadows <pat wrote: > On Wed, 5 Feb 2003 05:51:40 -0800 (PST), you wrote: > > >sometimes it will have the same products in it and > not > >even say so.. there arent any real standards levels > >for packaging in this situation, so even if your > >cheese doesnt say rennet, and just says 'enzymes' > or > >coagulants' it could still have it in the > ingredients. > >You can find good safe cheeses on the net though. > > Conversely, the cheese that says 'Rennet-free' or > words to > that effect, can be assumed to be telling the truth. > > I see - in the quote someone posted - that I was > correct > -the soft cheese (cottage cheese, ricotta, cream > cheese and > similar) don't have rennet in any event. > > Pat > -- Pat Meadows > CLICK DAILY TO FEED THE HUNGRY > United States: http://www.stopthehunger.com/ > International: http://www.thehungersite.com/ > ===== Where is this beauty? I search and search and then find, We are the lotus. Om Mani Padme Hum Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2003 Report Share Posted February 5, 2003 Yes and no, Sara. Soy cheese DOES have " rennet " in it, but that " is not " the same as " rennin, " see below for further explanation. So, while all of this talk of " calf stomachs " was in fact very TRUE prior to 1990, today it is just " MISinformation coming from only ONE member. " I repost this info from a prior email: " ...Until 1990, the only source of " rennin " was calves. Since chymosin is the most important enzyme in " rennin " for coagulating milk, scientists created a " system to make chymosin that doesn't require calves " ...the " gene for chymosin " was cut from a calf cell and inserted into the " genomes of bacteria and yeast. The microbes make an exact copy of the calf chymosin. [Once this laboratory copy is made, it is no longer an animal tissue.] Microbes replicate and grow rapidly, and can be grown continuously. Thus, the supply of " rennet " [notice here that " rennet " refers to the lab copy of the calf enzyme] is assured [with this non animal tissue process]. Approximately 70% of the cheese made in the U.S. is coagulated using chymosin [from this microbe replicate]. " [emphasis added] Source: http://www.usu.edu/biotech/education_outreach/cheese_lab.html Also, I notice that upon visiting many veggie sites exposing " hidden animal products " in our food, they " do not " distinguish between " rennin " and " rennet, " which we now know to be " an error " of classification. For those who do not know me, I have been veggie for almost 22 years, and I do not take it lightly. I won't present info to this group without scientific data to support my claim and a supporting link so that no one has to only take my word for something. Sadly, anyone who relys solely on the veggie sites " on this particular point " continues to spead misinformation. DaveO Stuquartville [stuquartville] Soy cheese won't have rennet in it, will it? Ugh, that really grosses me out to think I've been eating the inside of a baby cows' stomache! I'm going to try really really hard not to eat any dairy now. What will it say on the label for the rennet? ~Sara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2003 Report Share Posted February 5, 2003 Nor do I consider it a battle of wills. For me, it's a struggle to evaluate all the possible info that impacts our veggie diet. This method of dialogue fills that need very well. Until Keith challenges the two pieces of info I posted, they will most likely stand for all the people who read them. DaveO Mr.Graves [sleepingtao] i disagree. I dont think there's any battle of wills, dave and i always seem to share info this way, even off the , in private. --- " Jennifer <m0lebul0r " <m0lebul0r wrote: > > But really all you guys are doing now is the > battle of wills. It > doesn't sound like anybody is really convincing > anyone of anything. > > > , " daveo " <daveo@m...> wrote: > > > > Interesting...a few more details are added...I'm > not quite sure how the dialogue has changed. > > > > DaveO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.