Krissy

[Guest guest]

I'm going to play " devil's advocate " here for a minute. Hope you don't mind!

I'd like to answer your concerns expressed in your post. You must ultimately

make the dietary decisions for yourself, but sometimes it's hard to do that

with all the conflicting information out there! First of all, many, many people

cook without using oils of ANY kind--butter, margarine, oil, whatever. It CAN

be done if you want to. If you do want to use an oil product in cooking, using

a dairy one can VERY easily be avoided. Not going to go into details, but I

can if you need me to later. Getting enough protein is NOT a problem on a vegan

diet--that's a very popular misconception. Americans actually are in " protein

overload " . Many, if not most foods eaten on a vegan diet contain varying

amounts of protein. I'd recommend getting a good vegan nutrition book (I have

several, and this information is contained in most vegan cookbooks anyway). They

should give you an idea of just how much protein is actually necessary, and

where it can be found. In general, if you are eating a varied diet, you are

getting enough protein. And you DON'T need to specially " combine " foods to get

the

" right " protein either--that is also a myth that has been disproven.

Yogurt--not entirely sure, but soy yogurt might contain the bacteria needed to

keep you

in balance--read the labels. If not, one acidophilus capsule a day (available

at health food stores) can accomplish the same thing. Dairy yogurt is not the

only source of the " good " bacteria. I honestly don't think " natural " is up for

debate. Natural means without " artificials " --period. I think the debate comes

in when discussing " organic " more than " natural " . It is always best to eat

foods in as close to their natural state as possible, and to buy organic when

the choice is there. Don't know WHO would say vegetarianism or veganism isn't

" natural " ! I can't even think of a good comeback for THAT one! In my mind,

what's not natural is eating the flesh of another species, or drinking a

substance

intended for baby cows! Human beings have absolutely NO requirement for meat

or dairy whatsoever. Oh--I see. I guess when you put it THAT way.....I just saw

the rest of your comment on " natural " . True. Processed foods like baked goods

and pasta aren't " raw " foods. That's a whole other issue. These foods meet

the definition of natural, but not of " raw " . Raw foods are a separate kind of

eating, beyond vegan, vegetarian, OR natural. I know a family that eats only raw

foods, and they are perfectly healthy--remarkably so. But I don't know much

about this way of eating. Dairy seems to be the last item to go for many people

looking to eat more naturally. Eggs and oils are also not easily given up. It

must be a conscious choice, and not everyone will do this, of course! I'm

actually not trying to convince you to do this in any way either, believe it or

not! I'm only trying to dispel some of the myths that everyone believes due to

our cultural upbringing (like you need dairy for calcium, which is absolutely

FALSE, of course!). As to your last comment--while it is true that organic

products have LESS pus, it is not " clean " by any means! There is still pus

there--as well as anything else the cow had consumed (or " cows " --the milk of

many

cows is pooled together), or any illnesses the cow has contracted. And sick cows

ARE used for meat and milk routinely, much more than we'd like to believe.

For some wonderful information about dairy, check out the NOTMILK website and

. Tons and tons of articles from very reliable sources (often the

Dairy Board itself!), disputing the safety and necessity of consuming dairy. If

you ever want to look into why eliminating milk and meat is important for

health, or you want to know how to make the switch, or how to cook these foods,

or

how to menu plan or stock your pantry for healthful eating, there are

literally hundreds of books out there on the subject, lots and lots of great

websites,

and quite a few really helpful too. I can make recommendations

if you ever need them. Just for starters, I'd get the Newstart cookbook, or

anything by the Benton sisters or Dr. John McDougall. A few great

are: mcd12day, Christian-Vegan-Cooking, VeganFoods4HealthyLiving,

SDA-Vegan-Cooking, HealthyMenusBusyMoms (my own group, and not strictly

vegetarian or

vegan), or . The people on these lists are friendly and

helpful, and can direct you to any resources you might need, answer cooking

questions, etc. I know this was a long post, and I hope you don't think I'm

trying to

push you into anything you aren't interested in! But veganism is a VERY

healthy way to eat, even when feeding pregnant women and little children. In

this

country, it is nearly impossible to have a vitamin or mineral deficiency of any

kind from eating a well balanced vegan diet, and there's a lot of false

information out there that most " mainstream " Americans believe just because they

saw

it on TV or learned it in school (remember the " four food groups " ?).

Advertising is a very powerful tool, and the meat and dairy industries do their

best

to opush their agenda--they even subsidize the purchase of school materials

pushing their products, and they also subsidize studies about the " importance "

of

meat and dairy. This, of course, produces a rather one-sided report many

times! ANYWAY.....healthy eating, no matter what you eat! Just make sure you

have

the right information about the various foods you choose, and make informed

decisions. That's all that counts.

 

Marilyn

Mom of eight VERY interesting kids, and proud grandma-to-be of TWINS!

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Krissy--That was my point. We all are where we are, and that's that. No

matter what we are told, we have our " comfort zones " , with any issue. I do agree

with you on those things. I do have to say that I disagree on two points though

(just for the record!). One--the animals DO suffer, no matter what farm they

are on. It's the nature of the business. Too lengthy to get into now, but there

are some excellent books about this. Organic farms are not exempt--when the

dairy cows' production decreases, she is killed. And the males don't make it

nearly that far--they are slaughtered for veal within months of birth. Same for

chickens. And death hurts. And two--Vegan food CAN'T taste bad as a whole. ALL

fruits and veggies, nuts and grains are vegan! They don't ALL taste bad!

Maybe you've had them prepared badly, or you ate ingredients you were not

familiar

with or comfortable with. That is very possible. I know how weird I thought

some of these exotic ingredients were when I first started looking into all

this. Again, we're talking comfort zone. Just be where you are, and not stress

about it. It's taken me a LONG time to get to where I am with my diet. I first

started looking into veganism over 20 years ago, and only just started to

realize things about animal rights and diseases in foods that made me

uncomfortable--and I've known these things in my head for all that time, but

never wanted

to really put it together with any action before. So I guess we chat again in

20 years, huh?

 

Marilyn

Mom of eight VERY interesting kids, and proud grandma-to-be of TWINS!

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hey Marilyn-

Thanks for all the info.

Yea, I guess I should have just put it more simply. I think vegan

foods taste lousy and I LOVE my dairy! It seems selfish, but so

is driving a car at all. Or using a/c at all. Or buying any clothes

that aren't union made with organic cotton. Or any veggies that

aren't organic (since the pesticides endanger the pickers). I do what

I can- driving a fuel efficient car, avoiding walmart, buying

organic whenever possible, no GMO foods, no antibiotics, no

bleach/nasty cleaners, recycle darn near everything.....But there is

simply so much out there that can be done, that it makes my head

spin. And at the end of all, you have to make some choices about

what's most important to you. I personally don't think the animals

suffer in organic farms so I guess I don't consider it " selfish " ----

though it's doubtful that dairy is necessary in my diet (but neither

are chocolate chip cookies!).

And then, I look at my dogs and think " all this work, and I'm giving

you guys that are lower on the food chain meat anyway! "

Oh and I agree the dairy for calcium argument is silly. There are

other sources.

 

Krissy

 

 

 

 

 

, sahmomof8@a... wrote:

> I'm going to play " devil's advocate " here for a minute. Hope you

don't mind!

> I'd like to answer your concerns expressed in your post. You must

ultimately

> make the dietary decisions for yourself, but sometimes it's hard to

do that

> with all the conflicting information out there! First of all, many,

many people

> cook without using oils of ANY kind--butter, margarine, oil,

whatever. It CAN

> be done if you want to. If you do want to use an oil product in

cooking, using

> a dairy one can VERY easily be avoided. Not going to go into

details, but I

> can if you need me to later. Getting enough protein is NOT a

problem on a vegan

> diet--that's a very popular misconception. Americans actually are

in " protein

> overload " . Many, if not most foods eaten on a vegan diet contain

varying

> amounts of protein. I'd recommend getting a good vegan nutrition

book (I have

> several, and this information is contained in most vegan cookbooks

anyway). They

> should give you an idea of just how much protein is actually

necessary, and

> where it can be found. In general, if you are eating a varied diet,

you are

> getting enough protein. And you DON'T need to specially " combine "

foods to get the

> " right " protein either--that is also a myth that has been

disproven.

> Yogurt--not entirely sure, but soy yogurt might contain the

bacteria needed to keep you

> in balance--read the labels. If not, one acidophilus capsule a day

(available

> at health food stores) can accomplish the same thing. Dairy yogurt

is not the

> only source of the " good " bacteria. I honestly don't

think " natural " is up for

> debate. Natural means without " artificials " --period. I think the

debate comes

> in when discussing " organic " more than " natural " . It is always best

to eat

> foods in as close to their natural state as possible, and to buy

organic when

> the choice is there. Don't know WHO would say vegetarianism or

veganism isn't

> " natural " ! I can't even think of a good comeback for THAT one! In

my mind,

> what's not natural is eating the flesh of another species, or

drinking a substance

> intended for baby cows! Human beings have absolutely NO requirement

for meat

> or dairy whatsoever. Oh--I see. I guess when you put it THAT

way.....I just saw

> the rest of your comment on " natural " . True. Processed foods like

baked goods

> and pasta aren't " raw " foods. That's a whole other issue. These

foods meet

> the definition of natural, but not of " raw " . Raw foods are a

separate kind of

> eating, beyond vegan, vegetarian, OR natural. I know a family that

eats only raw

> foods, and they are perfectly healthy--remarkably so. But I don't

know much

> about this way of eating. Dairy seems to be the last item to go for

many people

> looking to eat more naturally. Eggs and oils are also not easily

given up. It

> must be a conscious choice, and not everyone will do this, of

course! I'm

> actually not trying to convince you to do this in any way either,

believe it or

> not! I'm only trying to dispel some of the myths that everyone

believes due to

> our cultural upbringing (like you need dairy for calcium, which is

absolutely

> FALSE, of course!). As to your last comment--while it is true that

organic

> products have LESS pus, it is not " clean " by any means! There is

still pus

> there--as well as anything else the cow had consumed (or " cows " --

the milk of many

> cows is pooled together), or any illnesses the cow has contracted.

And sick cows

> ARE used for meat and milk routinely, much more than we'd like to

believe.

> For some wonderful information about dairy, check out the NOTMILK

website and

> . Tons and tons of articles from very reliable sources

(often the

> Dairy Board itself!), disputing the safety and necessity of

consuming dairy. If

> you ever want to look into why eliminating milk and meat is

important for

> health, or you want to know how to make the switch, or how to cook

these foods, or

> how to menu plan or stock your pantry for healthful eating, there

are

> literally hundreds of books out there on the subject, lots and lots

of great websites,

> and quite a few really helpful too. I can make

recommendations

> if you ever need them. Just for starters, I'd get the Newstart

cookbook, or

> anything by the Benton sisters or Dr. John McDougall. A few great

 

> are: mcd12day, Christian-Vegan-Cooking, VeganFoods4HealthyLiving,

> SDA-Vegan-Cooking, HealthyMenusBusyMoms (my own group, and not

strictly vegetarian or

> vegan), or . The people on these lists are

friendly and

> helpful, and can direct you to any resources you might need, answer

cooking

> questions, etc. I know this was a long post, and I hope you don't

think I'm trying to

> push you into anything you aren't interested in! But veganism is a

VERY

> healthy way to eat, even when feeding pregnant women and little

children. In this

> country, it is nearly impossible to have a vitamin or mineral

deficiency of any

> kind from eating a well balanced vegan diet, and there's a lot of

false

> information out there that most " mainstream " Americans believe just

because they saw

> it on TV or learned it in school (remember the " four food

groups " ?).

> Advertising is a very powerful tool, and the meat and dairy

industries do their best

> to opush their agenda--they even subsidize the purchase of school

materials

> pushing their products, and they also subsidize studies about

the " importance " of

> meat and dairy. This, of course, produces a rather one-sided report

many

> times! ANYWAY.....healthy eating, no matter what you eat! Just make

sure you have

> the right information about the various foods you choose, and make

informed

> decisions. That's all that counts.

>

> Marilyn

> Mom of eight VERY interesting kids, and proud grandma-to-be of

TWINS!

>

>

>