Guest guest Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 First paragraph:You may consider this title an oxymoron—a figure of speech that combines two normallycontradictory terms, but in real life this concurrence is all too common. You may also think the title is offensive. My intention is to help, not to provoke anger.People who have declared themselves “vegan,” have said “no” to eating all animal-derived foods. At extraordinary personal costs, many of these guardians labor tirelessly to protect the welfare of all animals. Fat vegans, however, have failed oneimportant animal: themselves. Furthermore, their audiences of meat-eaters and animal-abusers may be so distracted by their appearance that they cannot hear the vital issues of animal rights and the environment;resulting in an unacknowledged setback for a fat vegan’s hard work for change. Read the rest of the essay here: http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2008nl/dec/fat.htmAlex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 I'm really disturbed to see this article distributed on sfbayveg, a group I consider extremely progressive, thoughtful and compassionate. It's yet another article to shame fat people into being embarrassed about their weight but this time from a vegan perspective. Gross. I have a few questions. How many extremeley obese vegans do you know? Are they really such a problem that we need to focus our energy on them? Or is this just another case of fat intolerance? Shouldn't the focus be on health, not weight? There are plenty of skinny vegans who eat junk food diets but just because they are " trim " , they get a free pass? Whereas a vegan who eats well and exercises regularly and just naturally has a higher set point weight* is crucified for not being a skinny enough face for the movement? Is that what being a vegan is about, not accepting fat people because they're um, too fat? Regardless of whether they have the drive, energy and determination to help end animal suffering? Honestly, if it is, we're going to lose a lot of great activists and would-be activists. I saw pictures from the awesome sfbayveg float at the pride parade and it made me proud to see such a diverse group of vegans, not just the stereotypical mal-nourished white person. We need people of all sizes, shapes and colors to fight against animal cruelty. Also, think about what the majority of America looks like, you think taking information from a condescending emaciated vegan is more appealing to them than talking to someone they can relate to? It makes veganism seem attainable and not like a fad diet. A fad diet that when they try it and don't lose buckets of weight, they're on to the next one! And guess what? This time it's Atkins! Touting veganism as a great way to lose weight is just low. There is already enough information out there to make women hate thesemselves...do we really need to add to it? I get why MacDougall does it, it's his livelihood. But for the rest of us to pass around this kind of hateful, intolerant garbage? Yuck. The only time I was ever skinny, I had a serious eating disorder and was a compulsive over exerciser. I thought I was being healthy but really I was just on my way to a heart attack from the stress of not eating enough and working out too much. But I was skinny! And that's the whole point, right? Much better to be skinny than healthy. Now, I'm bigger but I'm SO much healthier and happier. My doctor says I have the best bloodwork he's seen all year and my cholesterol and blood pressure are near perfect. I exercise at a much more reasonable rate and eat a good amount of healthy, whole, vegan foods (including fat! which you need to live! please don't substitute low fat chemically salad dressing for delicious vinegar and olive oil!) and don't obsess about food and my body all the time. We're all different sizes and that's OKAY. The best thing you can do for your body is to eat well (vegan, of course!), exercise and learn to love it. If not, you're gonna be a miserable person who judges your self worth and the worth of others based on what size jeans they wear. The force we have to fight is out there, not amongst our own community. The mythological " damage " done to the movement by fat vegans pales in comparison to, say, the damage done by the dairy industry. By seeding division within our community, you weaken us for the actual battles we need to fight. Laura *What you weigh is, for the most part, genetically determined. Just like your height, eye and skin color. You can deviate from that weight by about 10-20 pounds in either direction but other than that, it's next to impossible for most people to weigh less (or more) than their set point weight. This is not just me talking, it's science. If you're interested in learning more or have any questions, contact me! ______ ______ On Behalf Of Alex Bury [alexbury1] Wednesday, July 01, 2009 7:45 PM McDougall: The Fat Vegan First paragraph: You may consider this title an oxymoron—a figure of speech that combines two normally contradictory terms, but in real life this concurrence is all too common. You may also think the title is offensive. My intention is to help, not to provoke anger. People who have declared themselves “vegan,” have said “no” to eating all animal- derived foods. At extraordinary personal costs, many of these guardians labor tirelessly to protect the welfare of all animals. Fat vegans, however, have failed one important animal: themselves. Furthermore, their audiences of meat-eaters and animal-abusers may be so distracted by their appearance that they cannot hear the vital issues of animal rights and the environment; resulting in an unacknowledged setback for a fat vegan’s hard work for change. Read the rest of the essay here: http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2008nl/dec/fat.htm Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 On Jul 1, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Alex Bury wrote: > Read the rest of the essay here: http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2008nl/dec/fat.htm Well I'll dissent with the other opinions that have been posted so far. I know many long-time vegans who have since put on unwanted weight, and it's a fairly recent phenomenon. Vegan food has come a very long way from the vegan food I remember in the 90s. We now have cupcakes, doughnuts, and multiple brands of fake cheese tempting us multiple times a day, and our once healthy diet is now starting to develop a scary resemblance to the dreaded Standard American Diet. Going vegan used to be a strategy for losing excess unwanted weight and getting into shape, but now many of us are finding that they're just back to their previously unhealthy bodies all over again. This is a real issue. And while I agree that the media's idea of " skinny " is completely insane and distorted, let's not forget that excess weight can be unhealthy (leading to illnesses like heart disease) or even just incredibly frustrating. I'm starting to hear more and more vegans talk about how much more difficult it is now to stay in shape than it used to be. That's a problem, and I think it's a mistake to shy away from talking about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2009 Report Share Posted July 3, 2009 Well said Steve. Being overweight is not healthy and I am thankful to anyone who reminds me of that and I don't appreciate anyone encouraging me to do something that is unhealthy. I do, however, appreciate people who support me in doing something that will be good for my health. I like what Dr. McDougall has to say. If only we had more Doctors like him people might be living longer and happier lives. Warren In a message dated 7/3/09 8:52:51 AM, steve writes: On Jul 1, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Alex Bury wrote: > Read the rest of the essay here: http://www.drmcdoughttp://www.drhttp://www.http:// Well I'll dissent with the other opinions that have been posted so far. I know many long-time vegans who have since put on unwanted weight, and it's a fairly recent phenomenon. Vegan food has come a very long way from the vegan food I remember in the 90s. We now have cupcakes, doughnuts, and multiple brands of fake cheese tempting us multiple times a day, and our once healthy diet is now starting to develop a scary resemblance to the dreaded Standard American Diet. Going vegan used to be a strategy for losing excess unwanted weight and getting into shape, but now many of us are finding that they're just back to their previously unhealthy bodies all over again. This is a real issue. And while I agree that the media's idea of "skinny" is completely insane and distorted, let's not forget that excess weight can be unhealthy (leading to illnesses like heart disease) or even just incredibly frustrating. I'm starting to hear more and more vegans talk about how much more difficult it is now to stay in shape than it used to be. That's a problem, and I think it's a mistake to shy away from talking about it. **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222585087x1201462804/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072 & hmpgID=62 & bcd=JulystepsfooterNO62) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2009 Report Share Posted July 3, 2009 Yes, let's talk about it. Let's talk about being HEALTHY, not SKINNY. Does that make sense? Healthy and skinny are not synonymous, just as fat isn't synonymous with unhealthy. Excess weight isn't what leads to being unhealthy, it's eating unhealthy foods and not exercising. If you're eating unhealthy foods and putting on weight and you used to eat healthy foods and didn't put on weight then great, easy solution, go back to your old way of eating. If eating processed foods has led to putting on unwanted weight, don't eat them! Pretty simple. This article goes way beyond that though, blaming fat vegans for their fatness and telling them they are not good enough to represent veganism. Screw that. If you don't welcome fat vegans as a part of the movement, what happens? You LOSE A VEGAN. Encouraging people to eat healthy, whole foods and exercise is the best thing you can do. Don't comment on their weight, it's NONE of your business. Is their fatness personally affecting the way you live your life or are you just being fattist? Are you REALLY concerned about their health or you just don't like looking at a fat person because you're so brainwashed by the thin imperative? Ask yourself these questions and try to give an honest answer. ______ On Behalf Of Steve Simitzis [steve] Friday, July 03, 2009 1:53 AM BAV mail list Re: McDougall: The Fat Vegan On Jul 1, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Alex Bury wrote: > Read the rest of the essay here: http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2008nl/dec/fat.htm Well I'll dissent with the other opinions that have been posted so far. I know many long-time vegans who have since put on unwanted weight, and it's a fairly recent phenomenon. Vegan food has come a very long way from the vegan food I remember in the 90s. We now have cupcakes, doughnuts, and multiple brands of fake cheese tempting us multiple times a day, and our once healthy diet is now starting to develop a scary resemblance to the dreaded Standard American Diet. Going vegan used to be a strategy for losing excess unwanted weight and getting into shape, but now many of us are finding that they're just back to their previously unhealthy bodies all over again. This is a real issue. And while I agree that the media's idea of " skinny " is completely insane and distorted, let's not forget that excess weight can be unhealthy (leading to illnesses like heart disease) or even just incredibly frustrating. I'm starting to hear more and more vegans talk about how much more difficult it is now to stay in shape than it used to be. That's a problem, and I think it's a mistake to shy away from talking about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2009 Report Share Posted July 3, 2009 I feel I must "weigh in" on this issue.About 13 or 14 years ago, I stopped weighing myself. Why? My home scale only went up to 300 lbs. I was at 296 and was afraid that I might break the scale. Around this time, I heard about the "fat liberation movement". I was miserable and the "fat liberation movement" taught me that the reason I was miserable was because I was the "victim of fatphobia" on the part of society. So, I comforted myself by having another bucket of KFC and another half gallon of ice cream. Afterall, I was the victim here. It was society that didn't accept me. So, I know I continued to gain weight. I estimate I got to 350 lbs, maybe close to 400 lbs. I had been wearing diapers for a couple of years because I could hold my urine (too much weight on my bladder). I couldn't walk more than 50 feet very slowly before getting out of breath. I started to fear going out for a long time for fear that I might have a bowel movement and wouldn't be able to clean myself. At least at home I could get into the bathtub. Because of this, I started to get scared - I'd heard of stories of people who weighed 700 lbs and had not left their homes in years. They were usually carried out by the fire department to a hospital or the morgue. That's the direction I was headed in. I was scared and miserable (of course to the "fat liberation movement" my misery had nothing to do with having to wear diapers and not being able to do anything I wanted to do. In fact, they argue that being fat does not have adverse effects on one's health). I went into therapy on my own. The first thing the therapist wanted to do was to put me on drugs (anti depressants). I refused. I had found a used copy of one of Dr. McDougall's books at a used book store. I had been vegan on and off for about 15 years. When vegan, I lost weight and felt great. Then, I always returned to my old ways and put on more weight than I had lost. My therapist was willing to work with me without the drugs and without groups like Overeaters Anonymous (I tried it and ran away - it's a cult in my opinion). As a result, I have found healthy ways to deal with life. Over the years, I have lost weight. Once I was below 280 lbs, I no longer needed to wear diapers. Once below 220, I started to do things that I never dreamed of like riding a bike. Once below 175 lbs, I started to run in 10k races and ride in 60 mile bike rides for charity. I've been between 140 and 150 for a while. My body mass index has been around 25 for years. I feel great. People who have seen my transformation say I look great. People who didn't know my before don't believe me when I say I used to be over 300 lbs. I have to show them an old picture of myself. It really disgusts me when I hear the "fat liberation movement" say that there is no connection between being fat and poor health. I challenge the "fat liberation movement" to find people who have lost 150 or 200 lbs and who have kept it off, but who felt better being fat. Go back to gasping for breath and wearing diapers? NEVER!!!Mary Anne Renosteve; From: wgjiiDate: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 12:04:05 -0400Re: McDougall: The Fat Vegan Well said Steve. Being overweight is not healthy and I am thankful to anyone who reminds me of that and I don't appreciate anyone encouraging me to do something that is unhealthy. I do, however, appreciate people who support me in doing something that will be good for my health. I like what Dr. McDougall has to say. If only we had more Doctors like him people might be living longer and happier lives. Warren In a message dated 7/3/09 8:52:51 AM, steve (AT) saturn5 (DOT) com writes: On Jul 1, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Alex Bury wrote: > Read the rest of the essay here: http://www.drmcdoughttp://www.drhttp://www.http:// Well I'll dissent with the other opinions that have been posted so far. I know many long-time vegans who have since put on unwanted weight, and it's a fairly recent phenomenon. Vegan food has come a very long way from the vegan food I remember in the 90s. We now have cupcakes, doughnuts, and multiple brands of fake cheese tempting us multiple times a day, and our once healthy diet is now starting to develop a scary resemblance to the dreaded Standard American Diet. Going vegan used to be a strategy for losing excess unwanted weight and getting into shape, but now many of us are finding that they're just back to their previously unhealthy bodies all over again. This is a real issue. And while I agree that the media's idea of "skinny" is completely insane and distorted, let's not forget that excess weight can be unhealthy (leading to illnesses like heart disease) or even just incredibly frustrating. I'm starting to hear more and more vegans talk about how much more difficult it is now to stay in shape than it used to be. That's a problem, and I think it's a mistake to shy away from talking about it. **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222585087x1201462804/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072 & hmpgID=62 & bcd=JulystepsfooterNO62) Hotmail® has ever-growing storage! Don’t worry about storage limits. Check it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2009 Report Share Posted July 3, 2009 Who was encouraging you to do something that was unhealthy? I'm just curious. I think Dr. McDougall is fantastic and, for the most part, has an excellent message. But I don't agree with shaming anyone because of their physical appearance. Fattism is one of the last acceptable forms of prejudice. This isn't about health, it's about not being fat and if you think differently, go back and re-read the article. It's ignorant, harmful, could lead to destructive eating behavior for some and worst of all, discourage others from becoming vegan. Trust me, fat people shame themselves enough, we don't need yet another person jumping on our backs. You think that if fat people could be skinny, they wouldn't do it? That's why dieting is a billion dollar industry. By supporting this mentality, you're supporting Atkins, the pharmaceutical companies who test on animals to come up diet pills and decades of sexism. What we should support is eating nutritious foods, getting some exercise and being comfortable with the weight that you land at. Everything else is b-s. ______ On Behalf Of wgjii [wgjii] Friday, July 03, 2009 12:04 PM steve; Re: McDougall: The Fat Vegan Well said Steve. Being overweight is not healthy and I am thankful to anyone who reminds me of that and I don't appreciate anyone encouraging me to do something that is unhealthy. I do, however, appreciate people who support me in doing something that will be good for my health. I like what Dr. McDougall has to say. If only we had more Doctors like him people might be living longer and happier lives. Warren In a message dated 7/3/09 8:52:51 AM, steve writes: On Jul 1, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Alex Bury wrote: > Read the rest of the essay here: http://www.drmcdoughttp://www.drhttp://www.http://<http://www.drmcdougall.com/mi\ sc/2008nl/dec/fat.htm> Well I'll dissent with the other opinions that have been posted so far. I know many long-time vegans who have since put on unwanted weight, and it's a fairly recent phenomenon. Vegan food has come a very long way from the vegan food I remember in the 90s. We now have cupcakes, doughnuts, and multiple brands of fake cheese tempting us multiple times a day, and our once healthy diet is now starting to develop a scary resemblance to the dreaded Standard American Diet. Going vegan used to be a strategy for losing excess unwanted weight and getting into shape, but now many of us are finding that they're just back to their previously unhealthy bodies all over again. This is a real issue. And while I agree that the media's idea of " skinny " is completely insane and distorted, let's not forget that excess weight can be unhealthy (leading to illnesses like heart disease) or even just incredibly frustrating. I'm starting to hear more and more vegans talk about how much more difficult it is now to stay in shape than it used to be. That's a problem, and I think it's a mistake to shy away from talking about it. ************** A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222585087x1201462804/aol?redir=http://\ www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072 & hmpgID=62 & bcd=Julystepsfooter\ NO62) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2009 Report Share Posted July 3, 2009 I too found this article to be offensive. As Laura pointed out, being fat is not always synonymous with being unhealthy, just as being skinny is not always synonymous with being healthy. I know plenty of skinny vegans who subsist on diets of chips and fake meats. If you want to have a discussion about the benefits of eating healthy whole foods vs eating processed vegan junk food, fine, but this shouldn’t be an excuse to shame or insult people based on their body type. If the goal of this article was to encourage healthier eating, it should have been titled “the unhealthy vegan”, not “the fat vegan.” This particular sentence really struck a nerve: “Furthermore, their audiences of meat-eaters and animal-abusers may be so distracted by their appearance that they cannot hear the vital issues of animal rights and the environment; resulting in an unacknowledged setback for a fat vegan’s hard work for change.” Is this statement for real? Are we really going to deem some people less worthy of carrying the vegan/ animal rights message because they don’t fit some sort of idealized body image? The animals need all the activists they can get, and alienating and attacking other people in the movement does nothing to help the animals. Why are we spending time criticizing and shaming people within our movement for their appearance instead of directing that time and energy towards fighting animal abuse? Just as we embrace ALL animals, there needs to be room in our community for people of all different shapes and sizes. Karin On Behalf Of Laura Beck Friday, July 03, 2009 12:54 PM RE: McDougall: The Fat Vegan Who was encouraging you to do something that was unhealthy? I'm just curious. I think Dr. McDougall is fantastic and, for the most part, has an excellent message. But I don't agree with shaming anyone because of their physical appearance. Fattism is one of the last acceptable forms of prejudice. This isn't about health, it's about not being fat and if you think differently, go back and re-read the article. It's ignorant, harmful, could lead to destructive eating behavior for some and worst of all, discourage others from becoming vegan. Trust me, fat people shame themselves enough, we don't need yet another person jumping on our backs. You think that if fat people could be skinny, they wouldn't do it? That's why dieting is a billion dollar industry. By supporting this mentality, you're supporting Atkins, the pharmaceutical companies who test on animals to come up diet pills and decades of sexism. What we should support is eating nutritious foods, getting some exercise and being comfortable with the weight that you land at. Everything else is b-s. ______ On Behalf Of wgjii [wgjii] Friday, July 03, 2009 12:04 PM steve; Re: McDougall: The Fat Vegan Well said Steve. Being overweight is not healthy and I am thankful to anyone who reminds me of that and I don't appreciate anyone encouraging me to do something that is unhealthy. I do, however, appreciate people who support me in doing something that will be good for my health. I like what Dr. McDougall has to say. If only we had more Doctors like him people might be living longer and happier lives. Warren In a message dated 7/3/09 8:52:51 AM, steve writes: On Jul 1, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Alex Bury wrote: > Read the rest of the essay here: http://www.drmcdoughttp://www.drhttp://www.http://<http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2008nl/dec/fat.htm> Well I'll dissent with the other opinions that have been posted so far. I know many long-time vegans who have since put on unwanted weight, and it's a fairly recent phenomenon. Vegan food has come a very long way from the vegan food I remember in the 90s. We now have cupcakes, doughnuts, and multiple brands of fake cheese tempting us multiple times a day, and our once healthy diet is now starting to develop a scary resemblance to the dreaded Standard American Diet. Going vegan used to be a strategy for losing excess unwanted weight and getting into shape, but now many of us are finding that they're just back to their previously unhealthy bodies all over again. This is a real issue. And while I agree that the media's idea of " skinny " is completely insane and distorted, let's not forget that excess weight can be unhealthy (leading to illnesses like heart disease) or even just incredibly frustrating. I'm starting to hear more and more vegans talk about how much more difficult it is now to stay in shape than it used to be. That's a problem, and I think it's a mistake to shy away from talking about it. ************** A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222585087x1201462804/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072 & hmpgID=62 & bcd=JulystepsfooterNO62) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2009 Report Share Posted July 3, 2009 Hey Mary Anne, During your times of obesity, you stated that you ate KFC and gallons of ice cream. That would make you a fat and unhealthy omnivore, not a fat vegan and that's not what we're talking about. You said that when you're vegan, you feel great. That's fantastic, stick with it! It sounds like your poor health was because of the buckets of KFC and gallons of ice cream. Eating that way isn't anything the " fat liberation movement " encourages you to do. In fact, everything I've read from the scientists, doctors, researchers and people who have learned to love and accept themselves at the weight they are, have been adamantly pro-healthy eating, pro-exercise and pro-loving and accepting your body. Best, Laura ______ On Behalf Of Mary Anne Reno [MAReno1] Friday, July 03, 2009 3:39 PM wgjii; steve; RE: McDougall: The Fat Vegan I feel I must " weigh in " on this issue. About 13 or 14 years ago, I stopped weighing myself. Why? My home scale only went up to 300 lbs. I was at 296 and was afraid that I might break the scale. Around this time, I heard about the " fat liberation movement " . I was miserable and the " fat liberation movement " taught me that the reason I was miserable was because I was the " victim of fatphobia " on the part of society. So, I comforted myself by having another bucket of KFC and another half gallon of ice cream. Afterall, I was the victim here. It was society that didn't accept me. So, I know I continued to gain weight. I estimate I got to 350 lbs, maybe close to 400 lbs. I had been wearing diapers for a couple of years because I could hold my urine (too much weight on my bladder). I couldn't walk more than 50 feet very slowly before getting out of breath. I started to fear going out for a long time for fear that I might have a bowel movement and wouldn't be able to clean myself. At least at home I could get into the bathtub. Because of this, I started to get scared - I'd heard of stories of people who weighed 700 lbs and had not left their homes in years. They were usually carried out by the fire department to a hospital or the morgue. That's the direction I was headed in. I was scared and miserable (of course to the " fat liberation movement " my misery had nothing to do with having to wear diapers and not being able to do anything I wanted to do. In fact, they argue that being fat does not have adverse effects on one's health). I went into therapy on my own. The first thing the therapist wanted to do was to put me on drugs (anti depressants). I refused. I had found a used copy of one of Dr. McDougall's books at a used book store. I had been vegan on and off for about 15 years. When vegan, I lost weight and felt great. Then, I always returned to my old ways and put on more weight than I had lost. My therapist was willing to work with me without the drugs and without groups like Overeaters Anonymous (I tried it and ran away - it's a cult in my opinion). As a result, I have found healthy ways to deal with life. Over the years, I have lost weight. Once I was below 280 lbs, I no longer needed to wear diapers. Once below 220, I started to do things that I never dreamed of like riding a bike. Once below 175 lbs, I started to run in 10k races and ride in 60 mile bike rides for charity. I've been between 140 and 150 for a while. My body mass index has been around 25 for years. I feel great. People who have seen my transformation say I look great. People who didn't know my before don't believe me when I say I used to be over 300 lbs. I have to show them an old picture of myself. It really disgusts me when I hear the " fat liberation movement " say that there is no connection between being fat and poor health. I challenge the " fat liberation movement " to find people who have lost 150 or 200 lbs and who have kept it off, but who felt better being fat. Go back to gasping for breath and wearing diapers? NEVER!!! Mary Anne Reno ________________________________ steve; wgjii Fri, 3 Jul 2009 12:04:05 -0400 Re: McDougall: The Fat Vegan Well said Steve. Being overweight is not healthy and I am thankful to anyone who reminds me of that and I don't appreciate anyone encouraging me to do something that is unhealthy. I do, however, appreciate people who support me in doing something that will be good for my health. I like what Dr. McDougall has to say. If only we had more Doctors like him people might be living longer and happier lives. Warren In a message dated 7/3/09 8:52:51 AM, steve writes: On Jul 1, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Alex Bury wrote: > Read the rest of the essay here: http://www.drmcdoughttp://www.drhttp://www.http://<http://www.drmcdougall.com/mi\ sc/2008nl/dec/fat.htm> Well I'll dissent with the other opinions that have been posted so far. I know many long-time vegans who have since put on unwanted weight, and it's a fairly recent phenomenon. Vegan food has come a very long way from the vegan food I remember in the 90s. We now have cupcakes, doughnuts, and multiple brands of fake cheese tempting us multiple times a day, and our once healthy diet is now starting to develop a scary resemblance to the dreaded Standard American Diet. Going vegan used to be a strategy for losing excess unwanted weight and getting into shape, but now many of us are finding that they're just back to their previously unhealthy bodies all over again. This is a real issue. And while I agree that the media's idea of " skinny " is completely insane and distorted, let's not forget that excess weight can be unhealthy (leading to illnesses like heart disease) or even just incredibly frustrating. I'm starting to hear more and more vegans talk about how much more difficult it is now to stay in shape than it used to be. That's a problem, and I think it's a mistake to shy away from talking about it. ************** A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222585087x1201462804/aol?redir=http://\ www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072 & hmpgID=62 & bcd=Julystepsfooter\ NO62) ________________________________ Hotmail® has ever-growing storage! Don’t worry about storage limits. Check it out.<http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutori\ al_Storage_062009> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2009 Report Share Posted July 3, 2009 Define Skinny Warren In a message dated 7/3/09 1:25:21 PM, lbeck writes: Yes, let's talk about it. Let's talk about being HEALTHY, not SKINNY. Does that make sense? Healthy and skinny are not synonymous, just as fat isn't synonymous with unhealthy. Excess weight isn't what leads to being unhealthy, it's eating unhealthy foods and not exercising. If you're eating unhealthy foods and putting on weight and you used to eat healthy foods and didn't put on weight then great, easy solution, go back to your old way of eating. If eating processed foods has led to putting on unwanted weight, don't eat them! Pretty simple. This article goes way beyond that though, blaming fat vegans for their fatness and telling them they are not good enough to represent veganism. Screw that. If you don't welcome fat vegans as a part of the movement, what happens? You LOSE A VEGAN. Encouraging people to eat healthy, whole foods and exercise is the best thing you can do. Don't comment on their weight, it's NONE of your business. Is their fatness personally affecting the way you live your life or are you just being fattist? Are you REALLY concerned about their health or you just don't like looking at a fat person because you're so brainwashed by the thin imperative? Ask yourself these questions and try to give an honest answer. ____________ ________ ________ ________ @sfba [@sfba] On Behalf Of Steve Simitzis [steve] Friday, July 03, 2009 1:53 AM BAV mail list Re: McDougall: The Fat Vegan On Jul 1, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Alex Bury wrote: > Read the rest of the essay here: http://www.drmcdoughttp://www.drhttp://www.http:// Well I'll dissent with the other opinions that have been posted so far. I know many long-time vegans who have since put on unwanted weight, and it's a fairly recent phenomenon. Vegan food has come a very long way from the vegan food I remember in the 90s. We now have cupcakes, doughnuts, and multiple brands of fake cheese tempting us multiple times a day, and our once healthy diet is now starting to develop a scary resemblance to the dreaded Standard American Diet. Going vegan used to be a strategy for losing excess unwanted weight and getting into shape, but now many of us are finding that they're just back to their previously unhealthy bodies all over again. This is a real issue. And while I agree that the media's idea of "skinny" is completely insane and distorted, let's not forget that excess weight can be unhealthy (leading to illnesses like heart disease) or even just incredibly frustrating. I'm starting to hear more and more vegans talk about how much more difficult it is now to stay in shape than it used to be. That's a problem, and I think it's a mistake to shy away from talking about it. **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221323013x1201367230/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072 & hmpgID=62 & bcd=JulystepsfooterNO62) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2009 Report Share Posted July 3, 2009 On Jul 3, 2009, at 12:35 PM, Laura Beck wrote: > Yes, let's talk about it. Let's talk about being HEALTHY, not > SKINNY. Does that make sense? Healthy and skinny are not synonymous, > At risk of going around and around, I would just like to point that the article doesn't use the word " skinny " once. It does, however, use the word " healthy " three times. I agree that popular culture's ideas about health and body image are insane and destructive, but I think it's also important not to swing the pendulum too far in the opposite direction. In particular, I think there's a lot of unhealthy lore among vegans, usually of the " I can eat whatever I want as long it's vegan " variety. In 2009, that is no longer true. We now have to watch what we eat and make healthy choices, just like everyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2009 Report Share Posted July 4, 2009 What the "fat liberation movement" taught me was that I was a victim - a victim of "fatphobia" and that I should "accept" my fat body - the body that had to wear diapers, that gasped for breath while trying to walk across a parking lot. So, if I wasn't already miserable enough with my life, I was now a "victim" of "society's fatphobia". The problem was not with me. It was with society. No reason for me to do anything for myself. I was the victim - society my oppressor. If only society would change, it would be alright. Therefore, if I accept my gasping diaper clad body, as the "fat liberation movement" says, then my only problem is my being a victim of "fatphobia". I got to the point where I could no longer accept my fat body and I refuse to see myself as a "victim". The reason I could no longer accept my fat body was because it was not able to function as a body should (hold urine, walk comfortably). The reason it could not do these things is because it was fat. It is the "fat liberation movement's" casting of fat people as "victims" of society and their refusal to accept any link between obesity and health problems that I disagree with. Mary Anne> > lbeck Fri, 3 Jul 2009 19:11:48 -0400> RE: McDougall: The Fat Vegan> > Hey Mary Anne,> > During your times of obesity, you stated that you ate KFC and gallons of ice cream. That would make you a fat and unhealthy omnivore, not a fat vegan and that's not what we're talking about. You said that when you're vegan, you feel great. That's fantastic, stick with it! It sounds like your poor health was because of the buckets of KFC and gallons of ice cream. Eating that way isn't anything the "fat liberation movement" encourages you to do. In fact, everything I've read from the scientists, doctors, researchers and people who have learned to love and accept themselves at the weight they are, have been adamantly pro-healthy eating, pro-exercise and pro-loving and accepting your body.> > Best,> Laura> ______> On Behalf Of Mary Anne Reno [MAReno1]> Friday, July 03, 2009 3:39 PM> wgjii; steve; > RE: McDougall: The Fat Vegan> > I feel I must "weigh in" on this issue.> > About 13 or 14 years ago, I stopped weighing myself. Why? My home scale only went up to 300 lbs. I was at 296 and was afraid that I might break the scale. Around this time, I heard about the "fat liberation movement". I was miserable and the "fat liberation movement" taught me that the reason I was miserable was because I was the "victim of fatphobia" on the part of society. So, I comforted myself by having another bucket of KFC and another half gallon of ice cream. Afterall, I was the victim here. It was society that didn't accept me. So, I know I continued to gain weight. I estimate I got to 350 lbs, maybe close to 400 lbs. I had been wearing diapers for a couple of years because I could hold my urine (too much weight on my bladder). I couldn't walk more than 50 feet very slowly before getting out of breath. I started to fear going out for a long time for fear that I might have a bowel movement and wouldn't be able to clean myself. At least at home I could get into the bathtub. Because of this, I started to get scared - I'd heard of stories of people who weighed 700 lbs and had not left their homes in years. They were usually carried out by the fire department to a hospital or the morgue. That's the direction I was headed in. I was scared and miserable (of course to the "fat liberation movement" my misery had nothing to do with having to wear diapers and not being able to do anything I wanted to do. In fact, they argue that being fat does not have adverse effects on one's health). I went into therapy on my own. The first thing the therapist wanted to do was to put me on drugs (anti depressants). I refused. I had found a used copy of one of Dr. McDougall's books at a used book store. I had been vegan on and off for about 15 years. When vegan, I lost weight and felt great. Then, I always returned to my old ways and put on more weight than I had lost. My therapist was willing to work with me without the drugs and without groups like Overeaters Anonymous (I tried it and ran away - it's a cult in my opinion). As a result, I have found healthy ways to deal with life. Over the years, I have lost weight. Once I was below 280 lbs, I no longer needed to wear diapers. Once below 220, I started to do things that I never dreamed of like riding a bike. Once below 175 lbs, I started to run in 10k races and ride in 60 mile bike rides for charity. I've been between 140 and 150 for a while. My body mass index has been around 25 for years. I feel great. People who have seen my transformation say I look great. People who didn't know my before don't believe me when I say I used to be over 300 lbs. I have to show them an old picture of myself. It really disgusts me when I hear the "fat liberation movement" say that there is no connection between being fat and poor health. I challenge the "fat liberation movement" to find people who have lost 150 or 200 lbs and who have kept it off, but who felt better being fat. Go back to gasping for breath and wearing diapers? NEVER!!!> Mary Anne Reno> ________________________________> steve; > wgjii Fri, 3 Jul 2009 12:04:05 -0400> Re: McDougall: The Fat Vegan> > > > Well said Steve. Being overweight is not healthy and I am thankful to anyone who reminds me of that and I don't appreciate anyone encouraging me to do something that is unhealthy. I do, however, appreciate people who support me in doing something that will be good for my health. I like what Dr. McDougall has to say. If only we had more Doctors like him people might be living longer and happier lives.> > Warren> > In a message dated 7/3/09 8:52:51 AM, steve writes:> > On Jul 1, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Alex Bury wrote:> >> Read the rest of the essay here: http://www.drmcdoughttp://www.drhttp://www.http://<http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2008nl/dec/fat.htm>> > Well I'll dissent with the other opinions that have been posted so> far. I know many long-time vegans who have since put on unwanted> weight, and it's a fairly recent phenomenon. Vegan food has come a> very long way from the vegan food I remember in the 90s. We now have> cupcakes, doughnuts, and multiple brands of fake cheese tempting us> multiple times a day, and our once healthy diet is now starting to> develop a scary resemblance to the dreaded Standard American Diet.> Going vegan used to be a strategy for losing excess unwanted weight> and getting into shape, but now many of us are finding that they're> just back to their previously unhealthy bodies all over again.> > This is a real issue. And while I agree that the media's idea of> "skinny" is completely insane and distorted, let's not forget that> excess weight can be unhealthy (leading to illnesses like heart> disease) or even just incredibly frustrating. I'm starting to hear> more and more vegans talk about how much more difficult it is now to> stay in shape than it used to be. That's a problem, and I think it's a> mistake to shy away from talking about it.> > > > > > > **************> A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222585087x1201462804/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072 & hmpgID=62 & bcd=JulystepsfooterNO62)> > ________________________________> Hotmail® has ever-growing storage! Don’t worry about storage limits. Check it out.<http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage_062009>> > > > > ---> > .........................................................> .........................................................> : BAY AREA VEGETARIANS BayAreaVeg.org : > : Charter/Post Guidelines http://bayareaveg.org/charter :> : Events Calendar - http://bayareaveg.org/events :> : Newsletter - http://bayareaveg.org/news :> : Ultimate Guide - http://bayareaveg.org/ug :> : Veg Food Finder - http://bayareaveg.org/finder :> : Volunteer - http://bayareaveg.org/volunteer.htm :> .........................................................> ......................................................... 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Guest guest Posted July 5, 2009 Report Share Posted July 5, 2009 Hey Steve, He doesn't use the word skinny but he doesn't have to, it is heavily implied. Actually, he uses the word " trim " twice. Trim = skinny. A different point/tangent is he says that when people hear the word vegan, they should think " young " too. Luckily for you, I'm too tired to take on ageism right now! Other than that, I think we're in agreement that all vegans, regardless of weight, should eat healthy, whole foods. I don't know any vegans who are of the mentality that they can eat whatever they want. On the contrary, the vegans I know are far more thoughtful about the animal, human, environmental and health impacts of their food choices. Yet another reason vegans are so awesome! Big, fat, vegan hugs, Laura ______ On Behalf Of Steve Simitzis [steve] Friday, July 03, 2009 9:18 PM BAV mail list Re: McDougall: The Fat Vegan On Jul 3, 2009, at 12:35 PM, Laura Beck wrote: > Yes, let's talk about it. Let's talk about being HEALTHY, not > SKINNY. Does that make sense? Healthy and skinny are not synonymous, > At risk of going around and around, I would just like to point that the article doesn't use the word " skinny " once. It does, however, use the word " healthy " three times. I agree that popular culture's ideas about health and body image are insane and destructive, but I think it's also important not to swing the pendulum too far in the opposite direction. In particular, I think there's a lot of unhealthy lore among vegans, usually of the " I can eat whatever I want as long it's vegan " variety. In 2009, that is no longer true. We now have to watch what we eat and make healthy choices, just like everyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2009 Report Share Posted July 5, 2009 When I read the article, I did not see the use of the word "young" as ageism. I honestly don't think McDougall was referring to chronological years, but rather to healthy, vibrant, inquisitive people as opposed to staid, "stuck in the mud" people. I would classify myself as "young" now in my 40s. However, in my 30s, I was not "young" even though in chronological years I was relatively younger than I am now.Mary Anne RenosteveCC: From: lbeckDate: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 04:17:27 -0400RE: McDougall: The Fat Vegan Hey Steve, He doesn't use the word skinny but he doesn't have to, it is heavily implied. Actually, he uses the word "trim" twice. Trim = skinny. A different point/tangent is he says that when people hear the word vegan, they should think "young" too. Luckily for you, I'm too tired to take on ageism right now! Other than that, I think we're in agreement that all vegans, regardless of weight, should eat healthy, whole foods. I don't know any vegans who are of the mentality that they can eat whatever they want. On the contrary, the vegans I know are far more thoughtful about the animal, human, environmental and health impacts of their food choices. Yet another reason vegans are so awesome! Big, fat, vegan hugs, Laura ______ On Behalf Of Steve Simitzis [steve (AT) saturn5 (DOT) com] Friday, July 03, 2009 9:18 PM BAV mail list Re: McDougall: The Fat Vegan On Jul 3, 2009, at 12:35 PM, Laura Beck wrote: > Yes, let's talk about it. Let's talk about being HEALTHY, not > SKINNY. Does that make sense? Healthy and skinny are not synonymous, > At risk of going around and around, I would just like to point that the article doesn't use the word "skinny" once. It does, however, use the word "healthy" three times. I agree that popular culture's ideas about health and body image are insane and destructive, but I think it's also important not to swing the pendulum too far in the opposite direction. In particular, I think there's a lot of unhealthy lore among vegans, usually of the "I can eat whatever I want as long it's vegan" variety. In 2009, that is no longer true. We now have to watch what we eat and make healthy choices, just like everyone else. Hotmail® has ever-growing storage! Don’t worry about storage limits. Check it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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