On bees and non-exploitation

[Guest guest]

While I think it's certainly good to be aware of all the various ways in

which human animals impose ourselves on non-human animals, I don't agree

with the apparent conclusion that the prevalance of exploitation somehow

negates the concerns brought up by the original post. In reference to

bees used for honey, but equally applicable here, Steve from L.O.V.E.

and Ida from The Vegan Ideal recently wrote:

 

" I think that to seek liberation for the most marginalized groups is not

only to seek liberation for those specific groups. To seek liberation

for the most marginalized groups seems, instead, to demonstrate an

opposition to all oppression --- an opposition to 'every possibility of

oppression and exploitation.' " ( http://bit.ly/pQCM0 )

 

" [This is about not] dodging the serious questions about the

exploitation of honey bees. Why are honey bees being exploited? How can

we avoid perpetuating this exploitation? What can we do to eliminate

this exploitation, and to foster nonexploitation instead? These are the

questions that should go into the critical thinking process used by us

as vegans when we are making personal choices. " ( http://bit.ly/4nZj41 )

 

Of course, this depends on one's reason for ethical vegetarianism. I

believe veganism as anti-oppression asks us to respect all life,

including bees, acknowledging our shortcomings while we work for a vegan

world.

 

Victor

-----------

You have to draw the line somewhere.

 

Did you know that the same beekeepers who help pollinate the California

almond crops, do the same for the Pacific northwest apple orchards?

http://www.goodfruit.com/issues.php?article=1936 & issue=74

From this article, it looks like almond orchards are the homes of these

bees, and they're shipped to OR, WA for the apple growers.

And bees are also used in the citrus crops in Florida.

 

If we're going to go up the chain, here are some more data points:

Is electricity vegan? Most electricity (40%) is generated from

coal-fired plants, and mountain-top mining in WV is killing thousands of

plants and animals. And windmills regularly kills birds.... Is petroleum

(oil) vegan? Thousands of animals die each year due to the pollution

from drilling runoff. Heck, we had Cosco Busan here a couple of years

ago; how many animals died in that?

 

Just something to think about.

 

Ajay

 

--

The Vegan Ideal: http://veganideal.org/

Veganism as Anti-Oppression: http://loveallbeings.org/

[Guest guest]

The point was: why is it OK to eat apples, but not almonds, when the

same bees that pollinate the almonds are used (forced?) to pollinate

the apples?

 

 

Victor Tsou wrote:

>

> While I think it's certainly good to be aware of all the various ways in

> which human animals impose ourselves on non-human animals, I don't agree

> with the apparent conclusion that the prevalance of exploitation somehow

> negates the concerns brought up by the original post.

> . . . .

[Guest guest]

I agree with Ajay in the sense that all of us (vegans and non-vegans) draw a

line somewhere. By driving or walking, I am killing quite a few insects

unknowingly and maybe, once in a while, a squirrel that crosses the road. I

realize that this is not done intentionally and that's the bottom line, IMO.

 

Would I stop walking or driving? I don't think so. Does that make me a

non-vegan? I don't know and anyway, I don't like labels that much. :-)

 

It is good to be aware of the issues and I think that it's fair and reasonable

for each of us to draw our own boundaries.

 

-Siva

 

 

, Ajay <ajayboots wrote:

>

> The point was: why is it OK to eat apples, but not almonds, when the

> same bees that pollinate the almonds are used (forced?) to pollinate

> the apples?

>

>

> Victor Tsou wrote:

> >

> > While I think it's certainly good to be aware of all the various ways in

> > which human animals impose ourselves on non-human animals, I don't agree

> > with the apparent conclusion that the prevalance of exploitation somehow

> > negates the concerns brought up by the original post.

> > . . . .

>

[Guest guest]

My other posting only went to one person, The difference with apples, is you can still get apples without importing a zillion hives. Maybe not quite as much or as nice, but whatever is flying around will do the job. With almonds you get zip, nadda, zilch, nothing. Capiche?

 

 

 

 

 

Victor Tsou <victorSFBAVEG Tue, October 20, 2009 7:35:40 AM On bees and non-exploitation

While I think it's certainly good to be aware of all the various ways in which human animals impose ourselves on non-human animals, I don't agree with the apparent conclusion that the prevalance of exploitation somehow negates the concerns brought up by the original post. In reference to bees used for honey, but equally applicable here, Steve from L.O.V.E. and Ida from The Vegan Ideal recently wrote:"I think that to seek liberation for the most marginalized groups is not only to seek liberation for those specific groups. To seek liberation for the most marginalized groups seems, instead, to demonstrate an opposition to all oppression --- an opposition to 'every possibility of oppression and exploitation. '" ( http://bit.ly/pQCM0 )"[This is about not] dodging the serious questions about the exploitation of honey bees. Why are honey bees being exploited? How can we avoid perpetuating this

exploitation? What can we do to eliminate this exploitation, and to foster nonexploitation instead? These are the questions that should go into the critical thinking process used by us as vegans when we are making personal choices." ( http://bit.ly/4nZj41 )Of course, this depends on one's reason for ethical vegetarianism. I believe veganism as anti-oppression asks us to respect all life, including bees, acknowledging our shortcomings while we work for a vegan world.Victor-----------You have to draw the line somewhere.Did you know that the same beekeepers who help pollinate the California almond crops, do the same for the Pacific northwest apple orchards?http://www.goodfrui t.com/issues. php?article= 1936 & issue= 74From this article, it looks like almond orchards are the homes of

these bees, and they're shipped to OR, WA for the apple growers.And bees are also used in the citrus crops in Florida.If we're going to go up the chain, here are some more data points:Is electricity vegan? Most electricity (40%) is generated from coal-fired plants, and mountain-top mining in WV is killing thousands of plants and animals. And windmills regularly kills birds.... Is petroleum (oil) vegan? Thousands of animals die each year due to the pollution from drilling runoff. Heck, we had Cosco Busan here a couple of years ago; how many animals died in that?Just something to think about.Ajay-- The Vegan Ideal: http://veganideal. org/Veganism as Anti-Oppression: http://loveallbeings.org/

[Guest guest]

Oh I might add that if one doesn't harvest honey, the bees aren't stimulated to get more. And if they don't go get more, they don't pollinate, and if they don't pollinate, we all starve.

 

 

 

Catwoman <pearldlcSFBAVEG Wed, October 21, 2009 10:27:10 AMRe: On bees and non-exploitation

 

 

 

My other posting only went to one person, The difference with apples, is you can still get apples without importing a zillion hives. Maybe not quite as much or as nice, but whatever is flying around will do the job. With almonds you get zip, nadda, zilch, nothing. Capiche?

 

 

 

 

 

Victor Tsou <victor@loveallbeing s.org>SFBAVEG <@ .com>Tue, October 20, 2009 7:35:40 AM On bees and non-exploitation

While I think it's certainly good to be aware of all the various ways in which human animals impose ourselves on non-human animals, I don't agree with the apparent conclusion that the prevalance of exploitation somehow negates the concerns brought up by the original post. In reference to bees used for honey, but equally applicable here, Steve from L.O.V.E. and Ida from The Vegan Ideal recently wrote:"I think that to seek liberation for the most marginalized groups is not only to seek liberation for those specific groups. To seek liberation for the most marginalized groups seems, instead, to demonstrate an opposition to all oppression --- an opposition to 'every possibility of oppression and exploitation. '" ( http://bit.ly/ pQCM0 )"[This is about not] dodging the serious questions about the exploitation of honey bees. Why are honey bees being exploited? How can we avoid perpetuating this

exploitation? What can we do to eliminate this exploitation, and to foster nonexploitation instead? These are the questions that should go into the critical thinking process used by us as vegans when we are making personal choices." ( http://bit.ly/ 4nZj41 )Of course, this depends on one's reason for ethical vegetarianism. I believe veganism as anti-oppression asks us to respect all life, including bees, acknowledging our shortcomings while we work for a vegan world.Victor-----------You have to draw the line somewhere.Did you know that the same beekeepers who help pollinate the California almond crops, do the same for the Pacific northwest apple orchards?http://www.goodfrui t.com/issues. php?article= 1936 & issue= 74From this article, it looks like almond orchards are the homes of

these bees, and they're shipped to OR, WA for the apple growers.And bees are also used in the citrus crops in Florida.If we're going to go up the chain, here are some more data points:Is electricity vegan? Most electricity (40%) is generated from coal-fired plants, and mountain-top mining in WV is killing thousands of plants and animals. And windmills regularly kills birds.... Is petroleum (oil) vegan? Thousands of animals die each year due to the pollution from drilling runoff. Heck, we had Cosco Busan here a couple of years ago; how many animals died in that?Just something to think about.Ajay-- The Vegan Ideal: http://veganideal. org/Veganism as Anti-Oppression: http://loveallbeing s.org/

[Guest guest]

I read somewhere that bees aren't really supposed to be the MAIN

pollinators of almond trees. They usually get pollinated by other

insects and bats. The almond farmers eradicate these " pests " when they

raze the surrounding area of non-almond tree vegetation and then NEED

the bees to pollinate. The honey they get from almond pollination tastes

bad enough that they can't sell it for consumption. I can't remember

what they do with it.

 

I don't eat honey because I don't like the idea that they feed them

high-fructose corn syrup during the off season in order to keep them

producing honey. Maybe small operation bee keepers don't do this... but

I haven't personally checked with the guy at the farmer's market yet.

 

I still eat almonds.

 

Just my 2cents.

 

JASE

>

>