Some people are not allowed to attend the Vegan Valentine's Bash.

[Guest guest]

> e. ... anyone

from Alaska named “Palin:” Not allowed. We will have

bouncers.

> f.

Person from Alaska named “Palin:”

Actually we might let you in. What better way to expand your horizons?

 

 

I know these bullet points were intended to be humorous, but I wonder

about the assumption hidden behind them, namely that everybody on this

list does not like Sarah Palin or thinks it is okay to make fun of her.

I think the assumption of political bias is harmful and exclusionary.

For me, veganism is about respecting all beings, non-human and human,

and doesn't have anything to do with political affiliation. What can I

do to make the public events I help organize more open and accessible

to all, and not exclude people? How do I accept and communicate with

those who don't share the same beliefs as me? How can I align my

actions with my firm belief in everybody's ability to embrace veganism,

not just that a certain subset of the population? These are questions

that veganism brings up for me.

 

Of course, you may have very different reasons for being vegetarian and

so these questions might not apply. I've experienced being on the other

end of hidden assumptions in the vegetarian community and beyond. It

can be a very isolating experience and I don't want others to feel the

same way.

 

Victor

-- The Vegan Ideal: http://veganideal.org/

Veganism as Anti-Oppression: http://loveallbeings.org/

[Guest guest]

Dear Victor,

I know you mean very well and I respect you for that.  Your points are well-taken.

 

  I am wondering, tho, if you know about Palin's comments on and actions towards Alaska's animals.  She is quoted as saying (I'm paraphrasing):  " People always ask me if there is a place for Alaska's animals.  I say, sure there is: right next to the mashed potatoes " .  Also:  " If God had not intended man to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them out of meat. " (Of course, people are also made out of meat, but never mind that.)

Actions:  She put out a bounty on wolves, wherein hunters could get a certain amt. of $ per wolves feet that they turned in. 

 

 And then there's the aerial hunting, where wolves (who are usually not even near human civilizations) are chased to exhaustion by helicopters and then shot from a low-flying helicopter or the hunter gets out and shoots the exhausted, terrified wolf point-blank. 

 Then there's denning:  Mother bears are lured out of dens with food, and then killed, leaving their pups to freeze or starve to death.

 

In the case of the wolves who aren't competing w/ indigenous people's for food, they are being gunned down to leave more elk and caribou for other hunters to shoot.

 

So, it's not that she's a Republican.  Matthew Scully who wrote Dominion used to be a speechwriter for G.W. Bush!  It's that she truly feels animals are worth zero or close to zero moral consideration.

 

Best regards,

Stephanie

 

On 2/5/10, Victor Tsou <victor wrote:

 

 

 

 

> e. ... anyone from Alaska named “Palin:”  Not allowed.  We will have bouncers.> f.        Person from Alaska named “Palin:”  Actually we might let you in.  What better way to expand your horizons?

I know these bullet points were intended to be humorous, but I wonder about the assumption hidden behind them, namely that everybody on this list does not like Sarah Palin or thinks it is okay to make fun of her. I think the assumption of political bias is harmful and exclusionary. For me, veganism is about respecting all beings, non-human and human, and doesn't have anything to do with political affiliation.

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Victor, sweetie ... CHILL OUT.

 

Personally, I think Alex's humor had nothing to do with assuming vegans are

anti-Sarah-Palin. I think it everything to do with an innocent hope that

free-thinking people of the world everywhere are anti-Sarah-Palin. Sarah might

be a nice person, but her public statements and actions make her an icon of

bigotry, ignorance (lack of education), religious intolerance, dysfunctional

families and bad parenting skills, corrupt governance, and violence.

Unfortunately, Lynn Vincent's book, " Gone Rogue by Sarah Palin " has been on New

York Time's best seller list for 2.5 months.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/books/bestseller/besthardnonfiction.html?ref=b\

estseller

 

I take this as evidence that many people (some of whom are vegan, probably)

think Sarah Palin (through Lynn Vincent) has something original, intelligent,

and productive to say, and by extension, I assume that means they think Sarah

Palin represents something good for our country. And that makes me very scared

for our future. It would scare me whether I was vegan or not.

 

Sarah Palin's Ghost Writer Pals Around with Racists and Wackos

http://gawker.com/5371146/sarah-palins-ghostwriter-pals-around-with-racists-and-\

wackos

 

Now who needs to chill out? Ha ha ha.

 

Sadly, we ARE living in pretty scary times, post 9-11, and post

election-of-Barack-Obama (when all the bigoted crazies came out). I appreciate

folks like Alex who are fighting the good fight while maintaining a positive

attitude and a bright sense of humor.

 

-Rachel D.

San Francisco, CA

 

P.S. Despite my growing concern about the increasing displays of bigotry by our

fellow Americans, I'll try to be happy, in hopes that the side of " peace love

and understanding " will win out. (And soon!!!) In the words of Nick Lowe, made

famous by Elvis Costello and the Attractions ... what's so funny about peace,

love, and understanding? Clearly, we all need to maintain our sense of humor in

these difficult times!

 

 

 

, Victor Tsou <victor wrote:

> ... anyone from Alaska named " Palin: " Not allowed. We will have bouncers.

f. Person from Alaska named " Palin: " Actually we might let you in. What

better way to expand your horizons?

 

I know these bullet points were intended to be humorous, but I wonder about the

assumption hidden behind them, namely that everybody on this list does not like

Sarah Palin or thinks it is okay to make fun of her. I think the assumption of

political bias is harmful and exclusionary.

[Guest guest]

Here are some quotes from her recent tome:

" If any vegans came over for dinner, I could whip them up a salad,

then explain my philosophy on being a carnivore: If God had not

intended for us to eat animals, how come He made them out of meat? "

 

" I always remind people from outside our state that

there's plenty of room for all Alaska's animals -- right next

to the mashed potatoes. "

 

She takes great pride in her ability (thanks to modern

technology) to murder other animals, and uses it as a photo-op

to appeal to voters.

You can read more about it here: http://tinyurl.com/ykoelxs

and here: http://tinyurl.com/ycqbqck

 

You say, " veganism is about respecting all beings, non-human and human, " .

Then you shouldn't be protesting outside KFC, McD, the live

animal salesmen, the torturers of animals, etc. because then you're

not respecting the people who abuse animals!

 

Personally, I don't see why veg*ans have to be so careful about

not offending anybody.

 

Ajay

 

 

On 02/05/2010 07:32 AM, Victor Tsou wrote:

>

>

>> e. ... anyone from Alaska named “Palin:” Not allowed. We will have

> bouncers.

> > f. Person from Alaska named “Palin:” Actually we might let

> you in. What better way to expand your horizons?

>

> I know these bullet points were intended to be humorous, but I wonder

> about the assumption hidden behind them, namely that everybody on this

> list does not like Sarah Palin or thinks it is okay to make fun of her.

> I think the assumption of political bias is harmful and exclusionary.

> For me, veganism is about respecting all beings, non-human and human,

> and doesn't have anything to do with political affiliation. What can I

> do to make the public events I help organize more open and accessible to

> all, and not exclude people? How do I accept and communicate with those

> who don't share the same beliefs as me? How can I align my actions with

> my firm belief in everybody's ability to embrace veganism, not just that

> a certain subset of the population? These are questions that veganism

> brings up for me.

>

> Of course, you may have very different reasons for being vegetarian and

> so these questions might not apply. I've experienced being on the other

> end of hidden assumptions in the vegetarian community and beyond. It can

> be a very isolating experience and I don't want others to feel the same way.

>

> Victor

[Guest guest]

Wow, if this response isn't bigoted and self-righteous under the guise of

compassion and tolerance, then I don't know what is.

 

I agree with Victor.

 

BTW, not all vegans have the same ethics.

 

" scared for our future " ?

I'm scared now. Your list of complaints can be translated to any politician.

 

Keep it punk.

 

 

Lastly, please don't send me hate mail and public superiority displays for

attempting to be tolerant like you did to Victor. That's messed up.

 

 

 

 

Andy

 

-

" rachel4veggies " <racheldonovan

 

Friday, February 5, 2010 9:51:58 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific

Re: Some people are not allowed to attend the Vegan

Valentine's Bash.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Victor, sweetie ... CHILL OUT.

 

Personally, I think Alex's humor had nothing to do with assuming vegans are

anti-Sarah-Palin. I think it everything to do with an innocent hope that

free-thinking people of the world everywhere are anti-Sarah-Palin. Sarah might

be a nice person, but her public statements and actions make her an icon of

bigotry, ignorance (lack of education), religious intolerance, dysfunctional

families and bad parenting skills, corrupt governance, and violence.

Unfortunately, Lynn Vincent's book, " Gone Rogue by Sarah Palin " has been on New

York Time's best seller list for 2.5 months.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/books/bestseller/besthardnonfiction.html?ref=b\

estseller

 

I take this as evidence that many people (some of whom are vegan, probably)

think Sarah Palin (through Lynn Vincent) has something original, intelligent,

and productive to say, and by extension, I assume that means they think Sarah

Palin represents something good for our country. And that makes me very scared

for our future. It would scare me whether I was vegan or not.

 

Sarah Palin's Ghost Writer Pals Around with Racists and Wackos

http://gawker.com/5371146/sarah-palins-ghostwriter-pals-around-with-racists-and-\

wackos

 

Now who needs to chill out? Ha ha ha.

 

Sadly, we ARE living in pretty scary times, post 9-11, and post

election-of-Barack-Obama (when all the bigoted crazies came out). I appreciate

folks like Alex who are fighting the good fight while maintaining a positive

attitude and a bright sense of humor.

 

-Rachel D.

San Francisco, CA

 

P.S. Despite my growing concern about the increasing displays of bigotry by our

fellow Americans, I'll try to be happy, in hopes that the side of " peace love

and understanding " will win out. (And soon!!!) In the words of Nick Lowe, made

famous by Elvis Costello and the Attractions ... what's so funny about peace,

love, and understanding? Clearly, we all need to maintain our sense of humor in

these difficult times!

 

, Victor Tsou <victor wrote:

> ... anyone from Alaska named " Palin: " Not allowed. We will have bouncers. f.

Person from Alaska named " Palin: " Actually we might let you in. What better way

to expand your horizons?

 

I know these bullet points were intended to be humorous, but I wonder about the

assumption hidden behind them, namely that everybody on this list does not like

Sarah Palin or thinks it is okay to make fun of her. I think the assumption of

political bias is harmful and exclusionary.

[Guest guest]

> Wow, if this response isn't bigoted and self-righteous under the guise of compassion and tolerance, then I don't know what is

 

My advice to anyone who is new to the list (and to those who have been with us since the beginning) .. take everything with a grain of salt. Email is a very sterile communication method and not everyone will find the same thing funny or witty or amusing. With over 17,000 messages posted to this list since it began in 10/2001, I am sure there is something to offend everyone.

 

To balance that, take some time to go to some local events (like the Vegan Valentine's bash), get to know the people in real life -- you'll appreciate their posts more, maybe their sense of humor or their perspective.

 

This next sentence is not directed to any particular responses on this topic but just as a general warning in general for internet communications on email, forums, bulletin boards, etc: Remember, there are some out there who take perverse delight in baiting people ..

 

Tammy

 

 

Join us at an upcoming Bay Area Vegetarians event!

 

02/07 Spicy Cha Cha Vegan Dinner - Milpitas 02/14 Plant-Powered Hikers Mt Tam Steep Ravine Hike - Mill Valley 03/13 Food for Thought Book Club: Slaughterhouse by Gail Eisnitz - Berkeley

Say it your way .. with an Ultimate Guide Review

[Guest guest]

Wow, I would love to go to this Valentine's day bash.  I wish I was in the area.

 

 I know that this sounds wishy washy, but I see both Victor and Ajay's points. 

 

On the one hand, Sarah Palin " s anti animal words and actions don't endear her to me and I thought the invitation was funny.    

 

 On the other hand, I feel that veganism, animal advocacy and compassion should always be kept non partisan. And the reason for this is simple - we want to reach as many people as possible. I want to try to spread the message of compassion and don't want to direct my message to people of any particuar religious or political affiliation, or any particular group or type.

 

I assume that this country is roughly 50 % Democratic and 50% Republican.  ( this is very general - not counting Independents and the smaller parties) A few years back, I was at an AR conference where one the the speakers basically said that Republicans are stupid. And I thought - hum, this guy has just excluded half the country from this movement and offended any Republicans /conservatives in the room.  That's not a great way to grow a movement.

 

We need to break away from sterotypes about vegans and appeal to as many people as possible. We vegans are too few in number.  I would love to see all kinds of people embrace veganism.

 

I think the problem lies in the uncertainty of whether the Palin comments were due to her anti animal words and deeds or her politics.  It is kind of ambiguous.

 

That's my two cents.

 

Nettie

 

 

  

On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 4:15 PM, Tammy <tammy wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

> Wow, if this response isn't bigoted and self-righteous under the guise of compassion and tolerance, then I don't know what is

 

My advice to anyone who is new to the list (and to those who have been with us since the beginning) .. take everything with a grain of salt.  Email is a very sterile communication method and not everyone will find the same thing funny or witty or amusing.  With over 17,000 messages posted to this list since it began in 10/2001, I am sure there is something to offend everyone. 

 

To balance that,  take some time to go to some local events (like the Vegan Valentine's bash), get to know the people in real life -- you'll appreciate their posts more, maybe their sense of humor or their perspective. 

 

This next sentence is not directed to any particular responses on this topic but just as a general warning in general for internet communications on email, forums, bulletin boards, etc:  Remember, there are some out there who take perverse delight in baiting people ..

 

Tammy

 

 

Join us at an upcoming Bay Area Vegetarians event!

 

02/07 Spicy Cha Cha Vegan Dinner - Milpitas

02/14 Plant-Powered Hikers Mt Tam Steep Ravine Hike - Mill Valley

03/13 Food for Thought Book Club: Slaughterhouse by Gail Eisnitz - Berkeley

Say it your way .. with an Ultimate Guide Review

 

 

 

-- " The thinking (person) must oppose all cruel customs, no matter how deeply rooted in tradition and surrounded by a halo.  When we have a choice, we must avoid bringing torment and injury into the life of another. "

   Albert Schweitzer Check out the website:  chooseveg.com

 

1 of 1 Photo(s)

[Guest guest]

Ajay,

Vegans (not dairy-consuming, leather-wearing "vegetarians") do not have

to be so careful about offending anybody. You can if you want to.

That's your choice. It's possible to offend people and still be Vegan.

But I believe the point Mindful Victor is making, (or at least this is

how I see things as well as many other Vegan's I know) is that being

Vegan is about acceptance based on, or at least involving consent. I

accept that Sarah Palin brutally kills animals without their consent,

for example. That does not mean that I have to like or enjoy it. I do

not want to change Sarah Palin, or make her stop killing animals from

her airplane or helicopter. I want to educate Sarah Palin, making an

opportunity for her to at least think about, possibly reconsider, and

thus

give the possibility to change her perspective, thus her actions

towards animals.

 

I can imagine you (and others reading) may be rolling your eyes at this

idea, but it's possible, Ajay. Howard Lyman has killed thousands of

animals, primarily cattle. He has held a captive bolt gun in his hand to

many an animals head and watched these animals die by the most brutal

methods imaginable.

 

He is now a notable Vegan advocate.

 

If Howard can do it, anyone can do it.

 

Rejecting Sarah Palin (or anyone else) from a Vegan event would make

absolutely no chance of spreading our message of compassion and

acceptance!

By immediately rejecting someone, even in jest, you're omitting the opportunity for change. And that's not very Vegan.

 

Rachel,

I'm sure people told some, opposing racial bigotry, to "chill out" when

jokes were made about Blacks, Hispanics, or others. "Hey, it's no big

deal! They're making a *joke* about not letting "them" enter the

business through the front door!"

 

Humor made at the expense of inclusion is called bigotry.

 

Nettie,

It doesn't matter what context the Palin reference was made.

Exclusion is just that, exclusion. And there's no excuse for it, either politically, animal welfare-related or otherwise.

 

In fact, as long as they are not breaking the law with their attendance,

why should anyone be excluded? "Jerks" that aren't welcome to this

event? How can you get a "Jerk" to stop being a "Jerk" unless they're

hanging around "non-Jerks?"

 

Thank you for considering my feedback with an open mind,

 

-Douglass

Vegan Recruiterarmyofcompassion*Army of Compassion*

Vegan AdvocacySave lives, one bite at a time:Go Vegan!

Check out AoC YouTubes!Add AoC Facebook! , Victor Tsou <victor wrote:>> > e. ... anyone from Alaska named "Palin:" Not allowed. We will have > bouncers.> > f. Person from Alaska named "Palin:" Actually we might let > you in. What better way to expand your horizons?> > I know these bullet points were intended to be humorous, but I wonder > about the assumption hidden behind them, namely that everybody on this > list does not like Sarah Palin or thinks it is okay to make fun of her. > I think the assumption of political bias is harmful and exclusionary. > For me, veganism is about respecting all beings, non-human and human, > and doesn't have anything to do with political affiliation. What can I > do to make the public events I help organize more open and accessible to > all, and not exclude people? How do I accept and communicate with those > who don't share the same beliefs as me? How can I align my actions with > my firm belief in everybody's ability to embrace veganism, not just that > a certain subset of the population? These are questions that veganism > brings up for me.> > Of course, you may have very different reasons for being vegetarian and > so these questions might not apply. I've experienced being on the other > end of hidden assumptions in the vegetarian community and beyond. It can > be a very isolating experience and I don't want others to feel the same way.> > Victor> > -- > The Vegan Ideal: http://veganideal.org/> Veganism as Anti-Oppression: http://loveallbeings.org/>

[Guest guest]

> I want to try to spread the message of compassion and don't want to direct my message to people of any particuar religious or political affiliation, or any particular group or type.

 

Good point, Nettie. In our posting guidelines, we give some specific examples of inappropriate posts for SFBAVEG, which include the below:

 

Politics, religion, pro/anti war discussions (this is a surefire way to divide our already small community). Please be very specific in your post to keep it veggie/AR related and NOT a disingenuous post about pro/anti-war, politics or religion.

 

I do not think any particular responses on this topic had that intention.

 

The full list is on the posting guidelines page (sent every month as an automatic reminder by Groups) - http://bayareaveg.org/posts.htm

 

Cheers,

Tammy

List Owner

 

Join us at an upcoming Bay Area Vegetarians event!

 

02/07 Spicy Cha Cha Vegan Dinner - Milpitas 02/14 Plant-Powered Hikers Mt Tam Steep Ravine Hike - Mill Valley 03/13 Food for Thought Book Club: Slaughterhouse by Gail Eisnitz - Berkeley

Say it your way .. with an Ultimate Guide Review

[Guest guest]

How about if everyone just agrees to disagree about this topic and moves on? I have read them all so far, but no progress is being made and some people are just being plain silly. At this point any continued debate will be merely "inbox litter."As was made abundantly clear - in a humorous way - by the original post: nobody is actually going to be excluded from this event. If you want to go and have a good time, go. If you were offended and don't want to associate with people who made such onerous remarks, don't go. It's as simple as that.Thanks,Mike Borg Douglass at Army-of-Compassion.com <vegan_douglass Sent: Sat, February 6, 2010 4:14:11 AM Re: Some people are not allowed to attend the Vegan Valentine's Bash.

 

 

 

Ajay,

Vegans (not dairy-consuming, leather-wearing "vegetarians" ) do not have

to be so careful about offending anybody. You can if you want to.

That's your choice. It's possible to offend people and still be Vegan.

But I believe the point Mindful Victor is making, (or at least this is

how I see things as well as many other Vegan's I know) is that being

Vegan is about acceptance based on, or at least involving consent. I

accept that Sarah Palin brutally kills animals without their consent,

for example. That does not mean that I have to like or enjoy it. I do

not want to change Sarah Palin, or make her stop killing animals from

her airplane or helicopter. I want to educate Sarah Palin, making an

opportunity for her to at least think about, possibly reconsider, and

thus

give the possibility to change her perspective, thus her actions

towards animals.

 

I can imagine you (and others reading) may be rolling your eyes at this

idea, but it's possible, Ajay. Howard Lyman has killed thousands of

animals, primarily cattle. He has held a captive bolt gun in his hand to

many an animals head and watched these animals die by the most brutal

methods imaginable.

 

He is now a notable Vegan advocate.

 

If Howard can do it, anyone can do it.

 

Rejecting Sarah Palin (or anyone else) from a Vegan event would make

absolutely no chance of spreading our message of compassion and

acceptance!

By immediately rejecting someone, even in jest, you're omitting the opportunity for change. And that's not very Vegan.

 

Rachel,

I'm sure people told some, opposing racial bigotry, to "chill out" when

jokes were made about Blacks, Hispanics, or others. "Hey, it's no big

deal! They're making a *joke* about not letting "them" enter the

business through the front door!"

 

Humor made at the expense of inclusion is called bigotry.

 

Nettie,

It doesn't matter what context the Palin reference was made.

Exclusion is just that, exclusion. And there's no excuse for it, either politically, animal welfare-related or otherwise.

 

In fact, as long as they are not breaking the law with their attendance,

why should anyone be excluded? "Jerks" that aren't welcome to this

event? How can you get a "Jerk" to stop being a "Jerk" unless they're

hanging around "non-Jerks?"

 

Thank you for considering my feedback with an open mind,

 

-Douglass

Vegan Recruiterarmyofcompassion@ gmail.com*Army of Compassion*

Vegan AdvocacySave lives, one bite at a time:Go Vegan!

Check out AoC YouTubes!Add AoC Facebook!@ .com, Victor Tsou <victor wrote:>> > e. ... anyone from Alaska named "Palin:" Not allowed. We will have > bouncers.> > f. Person from Alaska named "Palin:" Actually we might let > you in. What better way to expand your horizons?> > I know these bullet points were intended to be humorous, but I wonder > about the assumption hidden behind them, namely that everybody on this > list does not like Sarah Palin or thinks it is okay to make fun of her. > I think the assumption of political bias is harmful and exclusionary. > For me, veganism is about respecting all beings,

non-human and human, > and doesn't have anything to do with political affiliation. What can I > do to make the public events I help organize more open and accessible to > all, and not exclude people? How do I accept and communicate with those > who don't share the same beliefs as me? How can I align my actions with > my firm belief in everybody's ability to embrace veganism, not just that > a certain subset of the population? These are questions that veganism > brings up for me.> > Of course, you may have very different reasons for being vegetarian and > so these questions might not apply. I've experienced being on the other > end of hidden assumptions in the vegetarian community and beyond. It can > be a very isolating experience and I don't want others to feel the same way.> > Victor> > -- > The Vegan Ideal: http://veganideal. org/> Veganism as Anti-Oppression: http://loveallbeing s.org/>

[Guest guest]

On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 4:14 AM, Douglass at Army-of-Compassion.com <vegan_douglass wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ajay,

Vegans (not dairy-consuming, leather-wearing " vegetarians " )What was the point of this parenthetical?  I consume dairy, but do not wear leather, and I don't understand why you would assume that I do.  Your diet is based around the principle of consent.  Mine is based around the principle of nonaggression.  These principles lead us to different conclusions about what is or is not acceptable, each of which is coherent.  And yes, I'm an actual vegetarian.  There is no need to put it in scare quotes.  It's an honest-to-goodness dietary choice that has shown itself to be healthfully sustainable by millions of people over thousands of years.  The usage of this word is well-established in the English language and it's perfectly within my rights to describe myself that way.

I can only draw the conclusion that you want to exclude me and people like me from the discussion.  Unlike Sarah Palin, I'm actually reading this list.It's pretty ironic that you would make such an actually offensive remark while being so self-righteous about another person completely hypothetically being offensive to someone.  If it weren't for that I probably would have just let it pass (and I'm perfectly willing to drop it now).

--Ruchira do not have

to be so careful about offending anybody.  You can if you want to. 

That's your choice.  It's possible to offend people and still be Vegan. 

But I believe the point Mindful Victor is making, (or at least this is

how I see things as well as many other Vegan's I know) is that being

Vegan is about acceptance based on, or at least involving consent.  I

accept that Sarah Palin brutally kills animals without their consent,

for example.  That does not mean that I have to like or enjoy it.  I do

not want to change Sarah Palin, or make her stop killing animals from

her airplane or helicopter.  I want to educate Sarah Palin, making an

opportunity for her to at least think about, possibly reconsider, and

thus

give the possibility to change her perspective, thus her actions

towards animals.

 

I can imagine you (and others reading) may be rolling your eyes at this

idea, but it's possible, Ajay.  Howard Lyman has killed thousands of

animals, primarily cattle.  He has held a captive bolt gun in his hand to

many an animals head and watched these animals die by the most brutal

methods imaginable.

 

He is now a notable Vegan advocate.

 

If Howard can do it, anyone can do it.

 

Rejecting Sarah Palin (or anyone else) from a Vegan event would make

absolutely no chance of spreading our message of compassion and

acceptance!

By immediately rejecting someone, even in jest, you're omitting the opportunity for change.  And that's not very Vegan.

 

Rachel,

I'm sure people told some, opposing racial bigotry, to " chill out " when

jokes were made about Blacks,  Hispanics, or others.  " Hey, it's no big

deal!  They're making a *joke* about not letting " them " enter the

business through the front door! "

 

Humor made at the expense of inclusion is called bigotry.

 

Nettie,

It doesn't matter what context the Palin reference was made.

Exclusion is just that, exclusion.  And there's no excuse for it, either politically, animal welfare-related or otherwise.

 

In fact, as long as they are not breaking the law with their attendance,

why should anyone be excluded?  " Jerks " that aren't welcome to this

event?  How can you get a " Jerk " to stop being a " Jerk " unless they're

hanging around " non-Jerks? "

 

Thank you for considering my feedback with an open mind,

 

-Douglass

Vegan Recruiterarmyofcompassion*Army of Compassion*

Vegan AdvocacySave lives, one bite at a time:Go Vegan!

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, Victor Tsou <victor wrote:>> > e. ... anyone from Alaska named " Palin: " Not allowed. We will have

> bouncers.> > f. Person from Alaska named " Palin: " Actually we might let > you in. What better way to expand your horizons?> > I know these bullet points were intended to be humorous, but I wonder

> about the assumption hidden behind them, namely that everybody on this > list does not like Sarah Palin or thinks it is okay to make fun of her. > I think the assumption of political bias is harmful and exclusionary.

> For me, veganism is about respecting all beings, non-human and human, > and doesn't have anything to do with political affiliation. What can I > do to make the public events I help organize more open and accessible to

> all, and not exclude people? How do I accept and communicate with those > who don't share the same beliefs as me? How can I align my actions with > my firm belief in everybody's ability to embrace veganism, not just that

> a certain subset of the population? These are questions that veganism > brings up for me.> > Of course, you may have very different reasons for being vegetarian and > so these questions might not apply. I've experienced being on the other

> end of hidden assumptions in the vegetarian community and beyond. It can > be a very isolating experience and I don't want others to feel the same way.> > Victor> > -- > The Vegan Ideal: http://veganideal.org/

> Veganism as Anti-Oppression: http://loveallbeings.org/>

[Guest guest]

A few years ago I conducted a workshop about the dairy industry.  I compiled this list of facts about the industry from the excellent book The World Peace Diet by Will Tuttle.

 

Here it is: The Facts About The Dairy Industry

 

 After giving birth, all female mammals make milk to feed their offspring.

 

The offspring of dairy cows are forcibly taken away from the mothers soon after birth. This causes distress to both mother and baby.

 

Milk is species specific. The milk of each species is different and is suited to the young of that species. Cow’s milk contains 3 times the protein and 50% more fat than human milk.

 

In a natural environment, cows produce 10 to 25 lbs of milk per day.  On modern dairies, cows are forced to produce 90 to 110 lbs. of milk per day.

 

Dairy cows never see a blade of grass.  They spend their lives standing on concrete, on dirt or in pools of manure. Standing on concrete causes lameness and pain.

 

In a natural environment, cows are ready to have a baby at 3 to 5 years.  On modern dairies, this occurs in a year or less.  She will be inseminated by a sperm gun on a “rape rack”.

 

Right after the cows begin to be milked they will again be inseminated on the “rape  rack”.  Thus, they are lactating and pregnant at the same time – a severe drain on their constitutions. They are milked 10 months of the year and are only removed from the milking machines for the last 2 months of their pregnancies. After giving birth, the baby is removed, the mother goes back on the milking machine and the cycle repeats.

 

Dairy cows are milked 2 to 3 times a day by milking machines.  The machines often cause cuts and injuries and sometimes give electric shocks.

 

The cows are bred to have the largest udders possible. The udders sometimes drag on the ground and in their feces and may prevent the cows from walking normally.

 

The cows are in constant pain and metabolic stress - lameness, mastitis, inflammation of the udder and other diseases cause considerable suffering.

 

Dairy cows are dehorned with red hot electric irons applied to their horn buttons.

 

Half the calves are born with “ too many’ teats, which may interfere with electric milking machines.  The teats are removed without anesthetic.

 

Dehorning, tail docking and teat removal cause intense pain.

 

The cow may be drenched after giving birth.  Gallons of nutrient dense material are forced into her through a 7 ft. tube shoved down her throat. If the liquid is pumped too fast, she may drown. A similar procedure called lavage may be imposed on the new born calf.

 

Babies of dairy cows meet one of 4 fates: replacement dairy cows, veal calves, beef cows, or are killed shortly after birth for rennet, animal feed or leather.

 

All dairy cows ( including those from organic and free range dairies) are sent to slaughter once their milk production declines.

 

The transport conditions and handling are brutal, as is the slaughter process.

 

Downer animals are animals too sick, weak or incapacitated to stand.  Because dairy cows are so taxed and worn out by the continual milking, high yields, pain and stress,  they are likely to be downer animals. 90% of downer animals are dairy cows. The downed animals that received the media attention a few months ago were dairy cows.

 

Downer animals are electrically shocked to prod them to move.  If they still can’t move they are dragged to the killing floor by chains, often ripping tendons and ligaments, and breaking bones.

 

Organic milk comes from cows that may have somewhat better conditions than conventional dairy cows, but are still subjected to many cruelties.  Like all dairy cows, their babies are removed, their milk is taken and they are eventually slaughtered.

 

I think these facts speak for themselves. I can't sight refences because the book is lent out now, but this stuff has been verified and substantiated plenty. I was a vegetarian for 14 years before I became vegan.  I had no knowledge of this or plenty of other things.  I wish I had known .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Ruchira Datta <Ruchira.Datta wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 4:14 AM, Douglass at Army-of-Compassion.com <vegan_douglass wrote:

 

 

 

 

Ajay, Vegans (not dairy-consuming, leather-wearing " vegetarians " )

 

What was the point of this parenthetical?  I consume dairy, but do not wear leather, and I don't understand why you would assume that I do.  Your diet is based around the principle of consent.  Mine is based around the principle of nonaggression.  These principles lead us to different conclusions about what is or is not acceptable, each of which is coherent.  And yes, I'm an actual vegetarian.  There is no need to put it in scare quotes.  It's an honest-to-goodness dietary choice that has shown itself to be healthfully sustainable by millions of people over thousands of years.  The usage of this word is well-established in the English language and it's perfectly within my rights to describe myself that way.

 

I can only draw the conclusion that you want to exclude me and people like me from the discussion.  Unlike Sarah Palin, I'm actually reading this list.

 

It's pretty ironic that you would make such an actually offensive remark while being so self-righteous about another person completely hypothetically being offensive to someone.  If it weren't for that I probably would have just let it pass (and I'm perfectly willing to drop it now).

 

--Ruchira

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

do not have to be so careful about offending anybody.  You can if you want to.  That's your choice.  It's possible to offend people and still be Vegan.  But I believe the point Mindful Victor is making, (or at least this is how I see things as well as many other Vegan's I know) is that being Vegan is about acceptance based on, or at least involving consent.  I accept that Sarah Palin brutally kills animals without their consent, for example.  That does not mean that I have to like or enjoy it.  I do not want to change Sarah Palin, or make her stop killing animals from her airplane or helicopter.  I want to educate Sarah Palin, making an opportunity for her to at least think about, possibly reconsider, and thus give the possibility to change her perspective, thus her actions towards animals.

I can imagine you (and others reading) may be rolling your eyes at this idea, but it's possible, Ajay.  Howard Lyman has killed thousands of animals, primarily cattle.  He has held a captive bolt gun in his hand to many an animals head and watched these animals die by the most brutal methods imaginable.

He is now a notable Vegan advocate.If Howard can do it, anyone can do it.Rejecting Sarah Palin (or anyone else) from a Vegan event would make absolutely no chance of spreading our message of compassion and acceptance!

By immediately rejecting someone, even in jest, you're omitting the opportunity for change.  And that's not very Vegan.Rachel, I'm sure people told some, opposing racial bigotry, to " chill out " when jokes were made about Blacks,  Hispanics, or others.  " Hey, it's no big deal!  They're making a *joke* about not letting " them " enter the business through the front door! "

Humor made at the expense of inclusion is called bigotry.Nettie,It doesn't matter what context the Palin reference was made.Exclusion is just that, exclusion.  And there's no excuse for it, either politically, animal welfare-related or otherwise.

In fact, as long as they are not breaking the law with their attendance, why should anyone be excluded?  " Jerks " that aren't welcome to this event?  How can you get a " Jerk " to stop being a " Jerk " unless they're hanging around " non-Jerks? "

Thank you for considering my feedback with an open mind,-DouglassVegan Recruiterarmyofcompassion

*Army of Compassion*Vegan AdvocacySave lives, one bite at a time:Go Vegan!

Check out AoC YouTubes!Add AoC Facebook!

, Victor Tsou <victor wrote:>

 

 

> > e. ... anyone from Alaska named " Palin: " Not allowed. We will have > bouncers.> > f. Person from Alaska named " Palin: " Actually we might let > you in. What better way to expand your horizons?

> > I know these bullet points were intended to be humorous, but I wonder > about the assumption hidden behind them, namely that everybody on this > list does not like Sarah Palin or thinks it is okay to make fun of her.

> I think the assumption of political bias is harmful and exclusionary. > For me, veganism is about respecting all beings, non-human and human, > and doesn't have anything to do with political affiliation. What can I

> do to make the public events I help organize more open and accessible to > all, and not exclude people? How do I accept and communicate with those > who don't share the same beliefs as me? How can I align my actions with

> my firm belief in everybody's ability to embrace veganism, not just that > a certain subset of the population? These are questions that veganism > brings up for me.> > Of course, you may have very different reasons for being vegetarian and

> so these questions might not apply. I've experienced being on the other > end of hidden assumptions in the vegetarian community and beyond. It can > be a very isolating experience and I don't want others to feel the same way.

> > Victor> > -- > The Vegan Ideal: http://veganideal.org/> Veganism as Anti-Oppression: http://loveallbeings.org/

>

 

 

 

-- " The thinking (person) must oppose all cruel customs, no matter how deeply rooted in tradition and surrounded by a halo.  When we have a choice, we must avoid bringing torment and injury into the life of another. "

   Albert Schweitzer Check out the website:  chooseveg.com