Guest guest Posted March 14, 2010 Report Share Posted March 14, 2010 Does anyone know anything about the Lierre Keith pieing that happened at yesterday's event? Any info would be appreciated.The comments on this site are mostly all very anti-vegan:http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2010/03/14/18640886.php?show_comments=1#18640966Thanks, Chris<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking.– John Kenneth Galbraith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2010 Report Share Posted March 14, 2010 I was there. I went to leaflet vegan brochures after her talk and three guys silenced her with soy whip cream! It was a mixed reaction from the crowd. Some of us cheered and started yelling “Go Vegan!” but as I leafleted the crowd, some thought it was messed up. Hello! It’s an anarchist fair! What do you expect? Sorry that you don’t get to justify your meat eating today…But all and all, a very vegan friendly crowd. Hope Bohanec Grassroots Campaigns Director In Defense of Animals hope (415) 448-0058 On Behalf Of Chris Marco Sunday, March 14, 2010 2:59 PM RE: Anarchist Fair Does anyone know anything about the Lierre Keith pieing that happened at yesterday's event? Any info would be appreciated. The comments on this site are mostly all very anti-vegan: http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2010/03/14/18640886.php?show_comments=1#18640966 Thanks, Chris <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking. – John Kenneth Galbraith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2010 Report Share Posted March 14, 2010 Hope--I'm so glad you were there leafleting, and that you witnessed this, and that you took the time to share with the list. Thank you! I am not surprised that you spent your Saturday afternoon leafleting for the animals. I'm out of town right now so I couldn't go to leaflet, and was *so* happy to read this from you. Thank you!! Alex On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 3:58 PM, Hope <hope wrote: I was there. I went to leaflet vegan brochures after her talk and three guys silenced her with soy whip cream! It was a mixed reaction from the crowd. Some of us cheered and started yelling “Go Vegan!” but as I leafleted the crowd, some thought it was messed up. Hello! It’s an anarchist fair! What do you expect? Sorry that you don’t get to justify your meat eating today…But all and all, a very vegan friendly crowd. Hope Bohanec Grassroots Campaigns Director In Defense of Animals hope (415) 448-0058 On Behalf Of Chris Marco Sunday, March 14, 2010 2:59 PM RE: Anarchist Fair Does anyone know anything about the Lierre Keith pieing that happened at yesterday's event? Any info would be appreciated. The comments on this site are mostly all very anti-vegan: http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2010/03/14/18640886.php?show_comments=1#18640966 Thanks, Chris <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking. – John Kenneth Galbraith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2010 Report Share Posted March 18, 2010 Hope, It was wonderful that you were at this event, and that you were able to promote Veganism through leafleting.I should think that you, as well as all of us here, would agree that violence is not an answer to any situation.It seems to me that being Vegan is a statement for peace, equality and non-violence.If I were at a meat eaters anarchist event with you, and a beef chili pie, or even a vegan pie were thrown in your face while you were promoting going Vegan, and everyone cheered and yelled "meat's good to eat!" How would you feel?Would you think, "well, it's just an anarchist fair! What else should I expect?"I would imagine and hope that you and others would be outraged. I should think you would attempt to have the perpetrators legally charged because you had been assaulted. I would if I were assaulted.What do I expect?Unless it's the pit of a punk show, I generally expect any event like that to be peaceful.An anarchist event does not require violence.No matter what others are expressing, violence is unnecessary, as violence is not Vegan.Thank you for all you do,-DouglassVegan Recruiter*Army of Compassion*Vegan Advocacy , "Hope" <hope wrote:>> I was there. I went to leaflet vegan brochures after her talk and three guys> silenced her with soy whip cream! It was a mixed reaction from the crowd.> Some of us cheered and started yelling "Go Vegan!" but as I leafleted the> crowd, some thought it was messed up. Hello! It's an anarchist fair! What do> you expect? Sorry that you don't get to justify your meat eating today.But> all and all, a very vegan friendly crowd. > > > > Hope Bohanec> > Grassroots Campaigns Director> > In Defense of Animals> > <hope hope > (415) 448-0058> > _____ > > On Behalf Of> Chris Marco> Sunday, March 14, 2010 2:59 PM> > RE: Anarchist Fair> > > > > > > Does anyone know anything about the Lierre Keith pieing that happened at> yesterday's event? Any info would be appreciated.> > The comments on this site are mostly all very anti-vegan:> http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2010/03/14/18640886.php?show_comments=1#186> 40966> > Thanks, Chris> > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>> The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking.> - John Kenneth Galbraith> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2010 Report Share Posted March 18, 2010 Hi Douglass, Like I said before, I am the first one to denounce violence. I do not believe this was a violent act, but a clever and effective direct action tactic. She didn’t get to finish her talk which may have swayed people to eat meat. The only thing the pie ninjas bruised was her ego. Hope Bohanec Grassroots Campaigns Director In Defense of Animals hope (415) 448-0058 On Behalf Of Douglass at Army-of-Compassion.com Thursday, March 18, 2010 1:53 AM Re: Anarchist Fair Hope, It was wonderful that you were at this event, and that you were able to promote Veganism through leafleting. I should think that you, as well as all of us here, would agree that violence is not an answer to any situation. It seems to me that being Vegan is a statement for peace, equality and non-violence. If I were at a meat eaters anarchist event with you, and a beef chili pie, or even a vegan pie were thrown in your face while you were promoting going Vegan, and everyone cheered and yelled " meat's good to eat! " How would you feel? Would you think, " well, it's just an anarchist fair! What else should I expect? " I would imagine and hope that you and others would be outraged. I should think you would attempt to have the perpetrators legally charged because you had been assaulted. I would if I were assaulted. What do I expect? Unless it's the pit of a punk show, I generally expect any event like that to be peaceful. An anarchist event does not require violence. No matter what others are expressing, violence is unnecessary, as violence is not Vegan. Thank you for all you do, -Douglass Vegan Recruiter *Army of Compassion* Vegan Advocacy , " Hope " <hope wrote: > > I was there. I went to leaflet vegan brochures after her talk and three guys > silenced her with soy whip cream! It was a mixed reaction from the crowd. > Some of us cheered and started yelling " Go Vegan! " but as I leafleted the > crowd, some thought it was messed up. Hello! It's an anarchist fair! What do > you expect? Sorry that you don't get to justify your meat eating today.But > all and all, a very vegan friendly crowd. > > > > Hope Bohanec > > Grassroots Campaigns Director > > In Defense of Animals > > <hope hope > > (415) 448-0058 > > _____ > > On Behalf Of > Chris Marco > Sunday, March 14, 2010 2:59 PM > > RE: Anarchist Fair > > > > > > > Does anyone know anything about the Lierre Keith pieing that happened at > yesterday's event? Any info would be appreciated. > > The comments on this site are mostly all very anti-vegan: > http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2010/03/14/18640886.php?show_comments=1#186 > 40966 > > Thanks, Chris > > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> > The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking. > - John Kenneth Galbraith > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2010 Report Share Posted March 18, 2010 How can sneaking up on someone and physically attacking them from behind not be an act of violence?!?!? Warren Hope <hope 'Douglass at Army-of-Compassion.com' <vegan_douglass; Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:09 am RE: Re: Anarchist Fair Hi Douglass, Like I said before, I am the first one to denounce violence. I do not believe this was a violent act, but a clever and effective direct action tactic. She didn’t get to finish her talk which may have swayed people to eat meat. The only thing the pie ninjas bruised was her ego. Hope Bohanec Grassroots Campaigns Director In Defense of Animals hope (AT) idausa (DOT) org (415) 448-0058 On Behalf Of Douglass at Army-of-Compassion.com Thursday, March 18, 2010 1:53 AM Re: Anarchist Fair Hope, It was wonderful that you were at this event, and that you were able to promote Veganism through leafleting. I should think that you, as well as all of us here, would agree that violence is not an answer to any situation. It seems to me that being Vegan is a statement for peace, equality and non-violence. If I were at a meat eaters anarchist event with you, and a beef chili pie, or even a vegan pie were thrown in your face while you were promoting going Vegan, and everyone cheered and yelled "meat's good to eat!" How would you feel? Would you think, "well, it's just an anarchist fair! What else should I expect?" I would imagine and hope that you and others would be outraged. I should think you would attempt to have the perpetrators legally charged because you had been assaulted. I would if I were assaulted. What do I expect? Unless it's the pit of a punk show, I generally expect any event like that to be peaceful. An anarchist event does not require violence. No matter what others are expressing, violence is unnecessary, as violence is not Vegan. Thank you for all you do, -Douglass Vegan Recruiter *Army of Compassion* Vegan Advocacy , "Hope" <hope wrote: > > I was there. I went to leaflet vegan brochures after her talk and three guys > silenced her with soy whip cream! It was a mixed reaction from the crowd. > Some of us cheered and started yelling "Go Vegan!" but as I leafleted the > crowd, some thought it was messed up. Hello! It's an anarchist fair! What do > you expect? Sorry that you don't get to justify your meat eating today.But > all and all, a very vegan friendly crowd. > > > > Hope Bohanec > > Grassroots Campaigns Director > > In Defense of Animals > > <hope hope > > (415) 448-0058 > > _____ > > On Behalf Of > Chris Marco > Sunday, March 14, 2010 2:59 PM > > RE: Anarchist Fair > > > > > > > Does anyone know anything about the Lierre Keith pieing that happened at > yesterday's event? Any info would be appreciated. > > The comments on this site are mostly all very anti-vegan: > http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2010/03/14/18640886.php?show_comments=1#186 > 40966 > > Thanks, Chris > > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> > The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking. > - John Kenneth Galbraith > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2010 Report Share Posted March 18, 2010 Yeah, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that they didn't make it a chili-pepper pie (according to the article on sfgate.com) just to bruise her ego."wgjii" <wgjiihope; vegan_douglass; Sent: Thu, March 18, 2010 2:09:57 PMRe: Re: Anarchist Fair How can sneaking up on someone and physically attacking them from behind not be an act of violence?!?! ? Warren Hope <hope (AT) idausa (DOT) org> 'Douglass at Army-of-Compassion. com' <vegan_douglass@ >; @ .com Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:09 am RE: Re: Anarchist Fair Hi Douglass, Like I said before, I am the first one to denounce violence. I do not believe this was a violent act, but a clever and effective direct action tactic. She didn’t get to finish her talk which may have swayed people to eat meat. The only thing the pie ninjas bruised was her ego. Hope Bohanec Grassroots Campaigns Director In Defense of Animals hope (AT) idausa (DOT) org (415) 448-0058 @ .com [] On Behalf Of Douglass at Army-of-Compassion. com Thursday, March 18, 2010 1:53 AM @ .com Re: Anarchist Fair Hope, It was wonderful that you were at this event, and that you were able to promote Veganism through leafleting. I should think that you, as well as all of us here, would agree that violence is not an answer to any situation. It seems to me that being Vegan is a statement for peace, equality and non-violence. If I were at a meat eaters anarchist event with you, and a beef chili pie, or even a vegan pie were thrown in your face while you were promoting going Vegan, and everyone cheered and yelled "meat's good to eat!" How would you feel? Would you think, "well, it's just an anarchist fair! What else should I expect?" I would imagine and hope that you and others would be outraged. I should think you would attempt to have the perpetrators legally charged because you had been assaulted. I would if I were assaulted. What do I expect? Unless it's the pit of a punk show, I generally expect any event like that to be peaceful. An anarchist event does not require violence. No matter what others are expressing, violence is unnecessary, as violence is not Vegan. Thank you for all you do, -Douglass Vegan Recruiter *Army of Compassion* Vegan Advocacy @ .com, "Hope" <hope wrote: > > I was there. I went to leaflet vegan brochures after her talk and three guys > silenced her with soy whip cream! It was a mixed reaction from the crowd. > Some of us cheered and started yelling "Go Vegan!" but as I leafleted the > crowd, some thought it was messed up. Hello! It's an anarchist fair! What do > you expect? Sorry that you don't get to justify your meat eating today.But > all and all, a very vegan friendly crowd. > > > > Hope Bohanec > > Grassroots Campaigns Director > > In Defense of Animals > > <hope@ ... hope > > (415) 448-0058 > > _____ > > @ .com [] On Behalf Of > Chris Marco > Sunday, March 14, 2010 2:59 PM > @ .com > RE: Anarchist Fair > > > > > > > Does anyone know anything about the Lierre Keith pieing that happened at > yesterday's event? Any info would be appreciated. > > The comments on this site are mostly all very anti-vegan: > http://www.indybay. org/newsitems/ 2010/03/14/ 18640886. php?show_ comments= 1#186 > 40966 > > Thanks, Chris > > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> > The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking. > - John Kenneth Galbraith > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2010 Report Share Posted March 18, 2010 This will be the last I will say on this subject:Violence: exertion of physical force so as to injure or abuse(as in warfare effecting illegal entry into a house) b : an instance of violent treatment or procedureHope,I believe this experience clearly falls under that definition. Any kind of physical action against someone, such as throwing something physical on someone would be accepted as violent. This was clearly a violent act, Hope.You still did not answer the question, how would you feel in the hypothetical example I provided? How would you feel about being assaulted in the same manner?I would be outraged and would certainly press charges. This is no different then when I was slapped by a Carson & Barnes circus manager. So if he would have had a pie in his hand instead, and everyone would have been laughing, it would have been "clever and effective direct action?" What's the difference?I certainly would still have pressed for charges of assault and sought to file a civil suit.This is no difference. Just the tactics used are different. Some whipped cream was in the hands instead of the hands used, themselves.What really perplexes me is how you not only defend this violent experience, you praise it as "clever and effective."You're the first to denounce violence, Hope?You are truly glorifying and defending violence. You are painstakingly defending something you are also claiming to vehemently be against.This isn't some clever tactic done by fun "pie ninjas," Hope.In addition, what's wrong with letting this person express their ideas? Again, you and I hold steadfastly to that right. Everyone is entitled to it. Because she was interrupted by such a physical assault, she was also censored.As a victim of censorship, many times over, I understand that is something that goes even beyond physical violence, as a violation.There are many reasons why I have brought this to your attention, in this manner, Hope.And I have no doubt you will consider this.Gandhi would never act in this manner.Thank you for being open to this message,-DouglassVegan Recruiterarmyofcompassion*Army of Compassion*Vegan AdvocacySave lives, one bite at a time:Go Vegan!Check out AoC YouTubes!Add AoC Facebook! , "Hope" <hope wrote:>> Hi Douglass,> > > > Like I said before, I am the first one to denounce violence. I do not> believe this was a violent act, but a clever and effective direct action> tactic. She didn't get to finish her talk which may have swayed people to> eat meat. The only thing the pie ninjas bruised was her ego. > > > > Hope Bohanec> > Grassroots Campaigns Director> > In Defense of Animals> > <hope hope > (415) 448-0058> > _____ > > On Behalf Of> Douglass at Army-of-Compassion.com> Thursday, March 18, 2010 1:53 AM> > Re: Anarchist Fair> > > > > > Hope, > > It was wonderful that you were at this event, and that you were able to> promote Veganism through leafleting.> I should think that you, as well as all of us here, would agree that> violence is not an answer to any situation.> It seems to me that being Vegan is a statement for peace, equality and> non-violence.> > If I were at a meat eaters anarchist event with you, and a beef chili pie,> or even a vegan pie were thrown in your face while you were promoting going> Vegan, and everyone cheered and yelled "meat's good to eat!" How would you> feel?> Would you think, "well, it's just an anarchist fair! What else should I> expect?"> > I would imagine and hope that you and others would be outraged. > I should think you would attempt to have the perpetrators legally charged> because you had been assaulted. I would if I were assaulted.> > What do I expect?> Unless it's the pit of a punk show, I generally expect any event like that> to be peaceful.> An anarchist event does not require violence.> > No matter what others are expressing, violence is unnecessary, as violence> is not Vegan.> > Thank you for all you do,> > -Douglass> Vegan Recruiter> *Army of Compassion* <http://www.army-of-compassion.com/> > Vegan Advocacy> > > , "Hope" hope@ wrote:> >> > I was there. I went to leaflet vegan brochures after her talk and three> guys> > silenced her with soy whip cream! It was a mixed reaction from the crowd.> > Some of us cheered and started yelling "Go Vegan!" but as I leafleted the> > crowd, some thought it was messed up. Hello! It's an anarchist fair! What> do> > you expect? Sorry that you don't get to justify your meat eating today.But> > all and all, a very vegan friendly crowd. > > > > > > > > Hope Bohanec> > > > Grassroots Campaigns Director> > > > In Defense of Animals> > > > <hope@ hope@> > > > (415) 448-0058> > > > _____ > > > > On Behalf> Of> > Chris Marco> > Sunday, March 14, 2010 2:59 PM> > > > RE: Anarchist Fair> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does anyone know anything about the Lierre Keith pieing that happened at> > yesterday's event? Any info would be appreciated.> > > > The comments on this site are mostly all very anti-vegan:> >> http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2010/03/14/18640886.php?show_comments=1#186> > 40966> > > > Thanks, Chris> > > > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>> > The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of> thinking.> > - John Kenneth Galbraith> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2010 Report Share Posted March 19, 2010 Thank you, Douglass, for your input. You have certainly made your point. Everyone deserves to add their voice to the discussion. However, I found the tenor of your remarks highly accusative and reproving, i.e., punitive - like an email "pie-in-the-face," if you will. Maybe two of them (email "pies") at that. Sharp words can cut more deeply than steel. Wounds will heal; cruel words may never. Speaking with the intent to impose one's own view upon another or to publicly excoriate someone is also a type of violence. I am sure many of the participants on this listserve at least tacitly felt some mild amusement by the albeit unfortunate event at the Anarchist Fair. Personally, I am truly sorry if there was any red pepper in the pie. That would have been truly wrong! And I do feel Lianne's pain. It is unfortunate that she had to experience such embarrassment and humiliation. But maybe she had it coming... "Neglect the Dharma. Suffer the karma." Distorting the truth and spreading lies is also violence. "A half-truth is equal to a whole lie." - Yiddish proverb"Half-truth is more dangerous than falsity." - Bengali proverb There is a saying in India, "Even a saint feels some relief when a dangerous animal like a snake or tiger is killed." The point is that morality is not absolute. Please read Kohlberg's six stages of moral development. (on Wikipedia, etc). Then we can talk about morality and nonviolence from a broader perspective. Take note of the 5th & 6th stages after understanding the earlier stages. In other words, following the 10 commandments will not make you enlightened; they are only a platform for practicing a higher morality. Have you ever seen the documentary "Ten Questions to the Dalai Lama"? (Hint: one question was posed about fighting for freedom or against repression.) Then we can talk in real time. Otherwise, we can say that Gandhi's famous "Salt March" incited so much violence. So many hundreds of people were clubbed and bloodied!!! Allow others to process their own nuanced emotional reactions and nurture moral sensibilities in a progressive fashion. While there are certainly principles and standards, "nonviolence" is a progressive dynamic. You're not killing plants, microbes, vermin, insects, etc. every time you eat? Have you ever farmed or plowed? Looked into a microscope of what's really on your plate? "It is no longer sufficient to observe the relatively proximate consequences an action in our restricted personal milieu can produce, but we must measure the repercussions which can result from it in all directions in the social organism." (Durkheim, Division of Labor in Human Society) If this pie-in-the-face episode upsets Lianne Keith's preaching tour, then the result will be nonviolent. I didn't do it. (I can't say that I would not have condoned it either.) But it did happen. Criminals should be reprehended. Being apprehended by the authorities is not a pleasant experience. It may not be my duty or your duty. But someone should do it, yes? Relief. Maybe Lianne will sit silently with this for a while... And that will be good for everyone. May all beings be peaceful.May all beings come to experience their Buddha nature (true wisdom). Sri (Irvin) PS: Kant's categorical imperative is only relevant until the 4th or 5th stage of Kohlberg's morality scale. Gandhi never spoke about what he would do to protect his mother. (Sacrificing oneself is also violence.) PPS: Leave it to the anarchists to act on our behalf! :-)--- On Thu, 3/18/10, Douglass at Army-of-Compassion.com <vegan_douglass wrote:Douglass at Army-of-Compassion.com <vegan_douglass Re: Anarchist Fair Date: Thursday, March 18, 2010, 7:02 PM This will be the last I will say on this subject:Violence: exertion of physical force so as to injure or abuse(as in warfare effecting illegal entry into a house) b : an instance of violent treatment or procedureI believe this experience clearly falls under that definition. Any kind of physical action against someone, such as throwing something physical on someone would be accepted as violent. This was clearly a violent act...You still did not answer the question, how would you feel in the hypothetical example I provided? How would you feel about being assaulted in the same manner?I would be outraged and would certainly press charges. This is no different then when I was slapped by a Carson & Barnes circus manager. So if he would have had a pie in his hand instead, and everyone would have been laughing, it would have been "clever and effective direct action?" What's the difference?I certainly would still have pressed for charges of assault and sought to file a civil suit.This is no difference. Just the tactics used are different. Some whipped cream was in the hands instead of the hands used, themselves.What really perplexes me is how you not only defend this violent experience, you praise it as "clever and effective."You're the first to denounce violence, Hope?You are truly glorifying and defending violence. You are painstakingly defending something you are also claiming to vehemently be against.This isn't some clever tactic done by fun "pie ninjas,"....In addition, what's wrong with letting this person express their ideas? Again, you and I hold steadfastly to that right. Everyone is entitled to it. Because she was interrupted by such a physical assault, she was also censored.As a victim of censorship, many times over, I understand that is something that goes even beyond physical violence, as a violation.There are many reasons why I have brought this to your attention, in this manner, Hope.And I have no doubt you will consider this.Gandhi would never act in this manner.Thank you for being open to this message,-DouglassVegan Recruiterarmyofcompassion@ gmail.com*Army of Compassion*Vegan AdvocacySave lives, one bite at a time:Go Vegan!Check out AoC YouTubes!Add AoC Facebook!> Hi Douglass,> > Like I said before, I am the first one to denounce violence. I do not> believe this was a violent act, but a clever and effective direct action> tactic. She didn't get to finish her talk which may have swayed people to> eat meat. The only thing the pie ninjas bruised was her ego. _ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2010 Report Share Posted March 19, 2010 Folks, In my humble opinion: any time you feel that you have to change the medium of discourse (as in, resorting to physical attacks to counter verbal attacks), you are admitting that you have lost the battle, and are now switching the battleground. I am not one of those turn-the-other-cheek guys, but I still feel that pieing somebody based solely on their words (uttered and written) is an admission of defeat. Somebody brought up Gandhi. The reason he prevailed against the British Empire is precisely for this reason: the Brits had to resort to violence in response to his non-violent actions. Ajay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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