Guest guest Posted March 19, 2010 Report Share Posted March 19, 2010 I would just add that it seems to me that pies in the face to those whose views we strongly disagree - whether it is considered violence or not - smacks of seeking to silence their views. I believe it is much more effective for making the cause of veganism, to counter them with the power of a superior argument, which we have - rather than feel good antics, which in the longrun are counterproductive. I think it makes for a greater longlasting respect for our position. Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2010 Report Share Posted March 19, 2010 I don't know a ton about Lierre Keith, but the title of her book says enough. She is anti-vegan. She is for using other living beings to benefit humans. She is for killing animals. Once I read her book perhaps I'll change this post (there are 14 holds before me at the library until it's my turn). Saturday she was pied for telling a crowd that we should eat animals. Most of my non-vegan friends find this really messed up, but I'm surprised so many in the AR community do too. I get that everyone should be allowed to express their views without feeling like they are going to be attacked. But by her saying we need to eat animals she is supporting worse pain than a pie in the face caused. And someone needed to stop Lierre from saying that it is okay to kill animals so we can eat them, because it is not okay to kill animals. One last thing. It was a piiiieeee!!! It probably could have done without the cayenne, but it wasn't a bullet. I recall a few months ago when I was at a rodeo (Douglass you probably recall being there as well) and I was spit on and had things thrown at me because I was watching out for the animals. Well what did I expect I was going to a rodeo as an animal rights activist! Lierre was going to a Antichrist book fair in very vegan city, promoting eating animals! I'm not saying pie throwing is right or wrong. But there is something positive to be said for direct action. It was used in civil rights movements, woman's rights movements, and other successful movements. -Jess Carroll , soy boy <soyboyincali wrote: > > Yeah, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that they didn't make it a chili-pepper pie (according to the article on sfgate.com) just to bruise her ego. > > > > > > ________________________________ > " wgjii " <wgjii > hope; vegan_douglass; > Thu, March 18, 2010 2:09:57 PM > Re: Re: Anarchist Fair > > > How can sneaking up on someone and physically attacking them from behind not be an act of violence?!?! ? > > Warren > > > > > > Hope <hope (AT) idausa (DOT) org> > 'Douglass at Army-of-Compassion. com' <vegan_douglass@ >; @ .com > Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:09 am > RE: Re: Anarchist Fair > > > > Hi Douglass, > > Like I said before, I am the first one to > denounce violence. I do not believe this was a violent act, but a clever and > effective direct action tactic. She didn’t get to finish her talk which > may have swayed people to eat meat. The only thing the pie ninjas bruised was > her ego. > > Hope Bohanec > Grassroots Campaigns Director > In Defense of Animals > hope (AT) idausa (DOT) org > (415) 448-0058 > > ________________________________ > > @ .com [] On Behalf Of Douglass at > Army-of-Compassion. com > Thursday, March 18, 2010 > 1:53 AM > @ .com > Re: Anarchist > Fair > > > Hope, > > It was wonderful that you were at this event, and that you were able to promote > Veganism through leafleting. > I should think that you, as well as all of us here, would agree that violence > is not an answer to any situation. > It seems to me that being Vegan is a statement for peace, equality and > non-violence. > > If I were at a meat eaters anarchist event with you, and a beef chili pie, or > even a vegan pie were thrown in your face while you were promoting going Vegan, > and everyone cheered and yelled " meat's good to eat! " How would > you feel? > Would you think, " well, it's just an anarchist fair! What else > should I expect? " > > I would imagine and hope that you and others would be outraged. > I should think you would attempt to have the perpetrators legally charged > because you had been assaulted. I would if I were assaulted. > > What do I expect? > Unless it's the pit of a punk show, I generally expect any event like that to > be peaceful. > An anarchist event does not require violence. > > No matter what others are expressing, violence is unnecessary, as violence is > not Vegan. > > Thank you for all you do, > > -Douglass > Vegan Recruiter > *Army of Compassion* > Vegan Advocacy > > > @ .com, " Hope " > <hope@> wrote: > > > > I was there. I went to leaflet vegan brochures after her talk and three > guys > > silenced her with soy whip cream! It was a mixed reaction from the crowd. > > Some of us cheered and started yelling " Go Vegan! " but as I > leafleted the > > crowd, some thought it was messed up. Hello! It's an anarchist fair! What > do > > you expect? Sorry that you don't get to justify your meat eating today.But > > all and all, a very vegan friendly crowd. > > > > > > > > Hope Bohanec > > > > Grassroots Campaigns Director > > > > In Defense of Animals > > > > <hope@ ... hope@ > > > > (415) 448-0058 > > > > _____ > > > > @ .com [] > On Behalf Of > > Chris Marco > > Sunday, March 14, 2010 2:59 PM > > @ .com > > RE: Anarchist Fair > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does anyone know anything about the Lierre Keith pieing that happened at > > yesterday's event? Any info would be appreciated. > > > > The comments on this site are mostly all very anti-vegan: > > http://www.indybay. org/newsitems/ 2010/03/14/ 18640886. php?show_ comments= 1#186 > > 40966 > > > > Thanks, Chris > > > > > <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> > > The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of > thinking. > > - John Kenneth Galbraith > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2010 Report Share Posted March 19, 2010 Maybe so many in the AR community find this messed up because we believe that all people have the right to freely express their opinions, regardless of whether or not we agree with them. The same right that allows us to speak up, leaflet and advocate for the animals without being assaulted by one of the masses who holds the opinion that killing animals is okay.-RobIf we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all. ~Noam Chomskyjesscarroll86 <jesscarroll86 Sent: Fri, March 19, 2010 2:23:49 PM Re: Anarchist Fair Saturday she was pied for telling a crowd that we should eat animals. Most of my non-vegan friends find this really messed up, but I'm surprised so many in the AR community do too. I get that everyone should be allowed to express their views without feeling like they are going to be attacked. But by her saying we need to eat animals she is supporting worse pain than a pie in the face caused. And someone needed to stop Lierre from saying that it is okay to kill animals so we can eat them, because it is not okay to kill animals. Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Un • Terms of Use . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2010 Report Share Posted March 20, 2010 I am in agreement that throwing a pie in a person's face, with or with out chili pepper, is a violent act. In fact if the pie throwers had stayed around and Ms. Keith physically retaliated against them could anyone of us blame her. Legally, this act constitutes an assault and battery, and I'm sure the pie-throwers thought the same which is why their faces were covered to conceal their identities. If we accept the position that it is justifiable to assault someone because we oppose their views then we must also accept that someone assaulting us because they oppose our views is justified as well. I do not, and thankfully our society does not, accept that someone is justified in assaulting me because they oppose my views. If we did I would be justifiably assaulted every time I leaflet. I am very active at circus and rodeo leafletings and have attended many rodeos to document the abuse, and I can assure you if a circus employee or rodeo employee or patron threw a pie in my face I would file assault and battery charges, and a civil suit. In response to Jess Carroll, if I go to a rodeo to document the abuse of the animals I do not expect to be assaulted or battered, i.e., spit on or have things thrown at me. If I am, and have evidence of the crime, I would file a civil suit against the perpetrator. I expect to be treated, at least, with the respect the law affords me. If we expect and allow others to treat us disrespectfully because of our views then we will be treated disrespectfully because of our views. I am of the opinion that if people, such as those who work at the Carson & Barnes Circus, who assault and batter others in an attempt to silence oppositional views, should be taken to court for damages, as it is probably the only action that will stop their disrespectful behavior. Moreover, free speech is the notion that everyone, especially those we disagree with, have the right to speak their minds, although there are legal exceptions such as using fighting words or inciting violence. Lastly, as these pie-throwers faces were covered, it is possible that this act was the act of an agent provocateur, done to incite us to fight amongst ourselves, not that we don't do that enough on our own. To paraphrase a quote, I think, is from H.G. Wells, " A person who resorts to violence is a person who has run out of ideas. " Pat Cuviello Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2010 Report Share Posted March 20, 2010 Those that are surprised that vegans oppose the pieing seem to think that this means that we somehow condone Keith's message. Of course not. We oppose her message, but just disagree with the pieing tactic employed. Several issues have been brought up: 1. Is this a violent act?2. Was this an attempt to suppress free speech? 3. Is this an effective way to help the cause/animals? 4. Has this hurt or helped Ms. Keith to promote her book? Several people have articulated well the reasons many of us have problems with this act. Ironically, even one of the people who agreed with the pieing commented that " most of my non vegan friends thought it was really messed up. " Since we don't want to preach to the choir, it is very important how we are percived. If non veg*ns lose respect for us, it hurts the cause. Sorry to be redundant, as I have said this in an earlier post, but I think it is an important point to make. It isn't about us venting our feelings, it's about helping animals. Martin Luther King Jr. always preached that it was very important to behave in an honorable way regardless of how badly the opppositon behaved. Sadly I think the animals lost out and Ms. Keith won. She got plenty of publicity that she wouldn't have gotten otherwise, and the act reflected badly on vegans. There are already many negative stereotypes about us, which people use to dismiss the whole issue of cruelty to animals, and instead prefer to characterize us as extremists. I just don't think this is a good way to promote our message of compassion, mercy, non- violence. I can't see how this act helps animals. On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Pat Cuviello <pcuvie wrote: I am in agreement that throwing a pie in a person's face, with or with out chili pepper, is a violent act. In fact if the pie throwers had stayed around and Ms. Keith physically retaliated against them could anyone of us blame her. Legally, this act constitutes an assault and battery, and I'm sure the pie-throwers thought the same which is why their faces were covered to conceal their identities. If we accept the position that it is justifiable to assault someone because we oppose their views then we must also accept that someone assaulting us because they oppose our views is justified as well. I do not, and thankfully our society does not, accept that someone is justified in assaulting me because they oppose my views. If we did I would be justifiably assaulted every time I leaflet. I am very active at circus and rodeo leafletings and have attended many rodeos to document the abuse, and I can assure you if a circus employee or rodeo employee or patron threw a pie in my face I would file assault and battery charges, and a civil suit. In response to Jess Carroll, if I go to a rodeo to document the abuse of the animals I do not expect to be assaulted or battered, i.e., spit on or have things thrown at me. If I am, and have evidence of the crime, I would file a civil suit against the perpetrator. I expect to be treated, at least, with the respect the law affords me. If we expect and allow others to treat us disrespectfully because of our views then we will be treated disrespectfully because of our views. I am of the opinion that if people, such as those who work at the Carson & Barnes Circus, who assault and batter others in an attempt to silence oppositional views, should be taken to court for damages, as it is probably the only action that will stop their disrespectful behavior. Moreover, free speech is the notion that everyone, especially those we disagree with, have the right to speak their minds, although there are legal exceptions such as using fighting words or inciting violence. Lastly, as these pie-throwers faces were covered, it is possible that this act was the act of an agent provocateur, done to incite us to fight amongst ourselves, not that we don't do that enough on our own. To paraphrase a quote, I think, is from H.G. Wells, " A person who resorts to violence is a person who has run out of ideas. " Pat Cuviello -- " The thinking (person) must oppose all cruel customs, no matter how deeply rooted in tradition and surrounded by a halo. When we have a choice, we must avoid bringing torment and injury into the life of another. " Albert Schweitzer Check out the website: chooseveg.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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