Dehydrating , Bacteria and Moisture

January 17, 2005

I have just now thought of dehydrating and bacteria. I have been dehydrating

crackers, breads, burgers etc. in my Excaliber. I really enjoy them. I have two

questions for you seasoned dehydrator users:

1) does any undesirable bacteria form on the food over the period of time it is

in the dehydrator. Some recipes are as long as 48 hours. I'm making Alissa

Cohen's eggplant parmasan right now and it says to dehydrate at 105 degrees for

14-18 hours. This dish has tomatoes in it.

2) How do I save the dehydrated foods after they are finished? The veggie

crackers I put in the fridge to help them " keep " in a baggie and they

immediately got soggy. So I dried them out some more and put them in a large

glass jar. They have been tasty to munch on all week.

The burgers will inevitebly retain more moisture and need to be refrigerated in

food savers. Yet they get soggy. I have put them back in the dehydrater for a

couple of hours before I want to use them, to dry them out and warm them a bit.

I have noticed that after a few days the burgers do not taste as fresh and

delicious as they do the first 2-3 days...but within a week, they do not taste

" rotten " . So in all this delay of eating these prepared foods and interaction

with the dehydrater, are there bacterial health hazards? And am I doing right by

storing the burgers in the fridge even though I must dehydrate them a bit again?

Thanks,

Diana of Dewberry Hill

Meet the all-new My – Try it today!

January 21, 2005

Such questions and others are why I don't bother with dehydrated food.

I really think it's MUCH less healthy and vital than 'proper' raw food.

Love,

Graeme

rawfood , Diana of Dewberry Hill

<cozad76078> wrote:

So in all this delay of eating these prepared foods and interaction

with the dehydrater, are there bacterial health hazards?

January 21, 2005

Humm, I wonder why when I ask questions I so often get the people who don't

rather than the people who do? I'm not real uptight about this raw diet like a

religion or anything. The dehydrator makes the food very Tasty for me and helps

me to stick to the diet. I don't live in Hawaii or California anymore where I

can walk out the door and pick the fruit off the trees. I was just asking on

this one issue. But no one has responded...so I've gone to the people who write

the books and manuals to ask. I also find the food is much better right out of

the dehydrator as fresh as possible. The flax crackers, I've dried well and they

are very good still nearly two weeks later after left in a glass cookie jar. I

just drink lots of water with them, as someone suggested. I was looking forward

to a good answer...but just got another unsolicited " I don't " .

D of DH

Such questions and others are why I don't bother with dehydrated food.

I really think it's MUCH less healthy and vital than 'proper' raw food.

Love,

Graeme

January 21, 2005

Diana,

I've not been able to spend much time on the computer lately, so am

catching up.

I'm not a " seasoned " dehydrating person, but have been doing some

for about 6 months. I haven't had any problems with bacteria that

I've noticed. Usually what I dehydrate gets eaten in the process,

so there isn't heaps left by the time the mandatory time has

passed. (I have an excaliber 9-tray, and usually dehydrate at about

105).

I keep my crackers in tupperware containers on the counter. Flax

crackers last well this way. If a recipe specifies to refrigerate,

I do that usually in a zipper baggie. I don't make huge batches at

a time, so stuff doesn't last long. And, as I said, I continually

taste test, so even if I start with a reasonable amount, the final

yield is much smaller. I tend to prefer stuff " fresh out of the

dehydrator " .

My basic dehydrating items are onion petals, banana chips, carob

cookies, onion bread, flat bread, potato chips. I haven't tried

tomatoes or burgers yet.

Cheers

terry

rawfood , Diana of Dewberry Hill

<cozad76078> wrote:

> I have just now thought of dehydrating and bacteria. I have been

dehydrating crackers, breads, burgers etc. in my Excaliber. I really

enjoy them. I have two questions for you seasoned dehydrator users:

>

> 1) does any undesirable bacteria form on the food over the period

of time it is in the dehydrator. Some recipes are as long as 48

hours. I'm making Alissa Cohen's eggplant parmasan right now and it

says to dehydrate at 105 degrees for 14-18 hours. This dish has

tomatoes in it.

>

> 2) How do I save the dehydrated foods after they are finished? The

veggie crackers I put in the fridge to help them " keep " in a baggie

and they immediately got soggy. So I dried them out some more and

put them in a large glass jar. They have been tasty to munch on all

week.

>

> The burgers will inevitebly retain more moisture and need to be

refrigerated in food savers. Yet they get soggy. I have put them

back in the dehydrater for a couple of hours before I want to use

them, to dry them out and warm them a bit.

>

> I have noticed that after a few days the burgers do not taste as

fresh and delicious as they do the first 2-3 days...but within a

week, they do not taste " rotten " . So in all this delay of eating

these prepared foods and interaction with the dehydrater, are there

bacterial health hazards? And am I doing right by storing the

burgers in the fridge even though I must dehydrate them a bit again?

>

> Thanks,

> Diana of Dewberry Hill

>

> Meet the all-new My – Try it today!

>

January 22, 2005

Adding anti-bacterial ingredients like lemon juice or ginger might help stave

off some bacteria, but I'm worried too that high-temp dehydrating is a

crapshoot. Sometimes batches from the same recipe seem to turn out very

differently. There are the two issues, of toxins and breakdown products (esp.

with fats, such as in flaxseed, going rancid) from the food sitting out above

100 deg. F, and then the amount/kind of bacteria from such experimental

fermentation.

Yet I wouldn't want to dissuade someone from trying to incorporate flax in their

diet, since it would seem that omega-3 deficiency is a major cause of concern

for vegans (e.g. Dr, Klaper's study of vegans, North American Veg. Society's

recommendation for omega-3 supplementation among vegans). What I really wish we

had were low-temp. vacuum dehydrators, operating just above 32 deg. F. If and

when I obtain/build one, I'll let you know. JP

Diana of Dewberry Hill <cozad76078 wrote:

I have two questions for you seasoned dehydrator users:

1) does any undesirable bacteria form on the food over the period of time it is

in the dehydrator. Some recipes are as long as 48 hours. I'm making Alissa

Cohen's eggplant parmasan right now and it says to dehydrate at 105 degrees for

14-18 hours. This dish has tomatoes in it.

January 22, 2005

As a biology major turned computer nerd, I can appreciate your question, but

it's probably something I've been in denial about. Makes me want to go to

edmond's scientific and order an inexpensive handheld microscope. I'm certain

that to a degree you are correct. The basics are heat and moisture which would

logically = bacteria. That is why pools are chlorinated. But, I'll admit that

I'm a " those who do " -and we have a lot of fun doing it. Seedloaf in mine right

now, that will probably be done on Monday. We do falafel balls, almonds,

crackers, and this week some pecan stuffed zuccini that were FABULOUS!

I supplement probiotics as well, but who knows how much that really helps.

We made some SCREAMING GOOD stuffed portobello caps yesterday, that dehydrated

for only about 5-8 hours (just to wilt). I know u are anti-mushroom, as I am

usually (i just can't see how they could be good for you since they are fungus).

We made a tomato/black olive sauce and filled the shroom caps. They were like

mushroom olive PIZZAs! But we did not leave them in there for 2 days--only for

a few hours. Not something I would do regularly (due to shrooms), but it sure

was good.

The bacteria that will grow in that environment we can't see with the naked eye.

I also know that most store bought shelled nuts and seeds are moldy. We can't

see that either.

In bacteria's defense, I'm sure most of the fruits and veges we get have mold on

them because they are rooom temperature and often moist. (ever see them

spritz/mist things at farmer's market).

Also most candida diets ban nuts from the program (and dried fruit but that's

due to sugar).

So what are we to do? I'm not ready to give up the dehydrator, but maybe,

eventually, I will be. It just seems that we (I) need *some* diversity to make

this work!

The lemon suggestion was a good one, but I find I tire of the lemon flavor after

awhile.

I have not been sick yet! also, I can't imagine planting one of those stuffed

zucchini and " seeing it grow/sprout " as we expect from our LIVE foods. I think

dehydrated is a lesser choice but it's helped me get through the winter.

Thoughts?

/m

Diana of Dewberry Hill <cozad76078 wrote:

Humm, I wonder why when I ask questions I so

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January 22, 2005

Actually I used to have a dehydrator so I was just talking of my own

experience. Besides that it does make sense theoretically though.

Having said that, you're definitely better off with dehydrated food

than cooked food, so don't let me stop you!

Love,

Graeme

rawfood , Diana of Dewberry Hill

<cozad76078> wrote:

I was looking forward to a good answer...but just got another

unsolicited " I don't " .

> D of DH

>

> Such questions and others are why I don't bother with dehydrated food.

> I really think it's MUCH less healthy and vital than 'proper' raw food.

January 22, 2005

rawfood , Jos Bagdonas <jbagdonas@s...> wrote:

> Yet I wouldn't want to dissuade someone from trying to incorporate

flax in their diet, since it would seem that omega-3 deficiency is a

major cause of concern for vegans.

I agree. To that end, I grind flax seed to a powder with sunflower

and pumpkin seeds in a coffee mill, and then blend into a smoothie

with bananas and water or juice.

>What I really wish we had were low-temp. vacuum dehydrators,

operating just above 32 deg. F. If and when I obtain/build one, I'll

let you know.

Yes, that would be an enormous improvement, probably! Raw food goes

space-age, huh?

Love,

Graeme

January 22, 2005

This whole debate has got me fired up again, and I think I'll email Udo Erasmus

today about it. Check out his website, www.udoerasmus.com. Basically, he's

scientifically trained, wrote the amazing book Fats that Heal, Fats that Kill,

and gives a good critique of raw foods. He's not a raw foodist, but he

acknowledges how many toxins are produced when you cook food past the boiling

temp of water (so he eats boiled food, incl. very select seafood, but adds

enzymes). On his site you'll see that he lists frozen foods as being healthier

than dehydrated, but I'm curious how much healthier, and why. I'm even gonna

propose a collaboration to build a low-cost, low-temp vacuum dehydrator, and if

he bites, I'm packing my bags for Vancouver. JP

Graeme <kimonokraken wrote:

>What I really wish we had were low-temp. vacuum dehydrators,

operating just above 32 deg. F. If and when I obtain/build one, I'll

let you know.

Yes, that would be an enormous improvement, probably! Raw food goes

space-age, huh?

Love,

Graeme

January 22, 2005

Shrooms! Hey, what's wrong with shrooms?

http://www.mushroominfo.com/nutrition/nutri.html

http://www.mushroominfo.com/nutrition/chart.html

http://www.anti-aging-guide.com/41mushrooms.php

http://www.anti-aging-guide.com/41mushrooms_PFV.htm

Boomin' Shrooms!! Wahoo.

tev

--- michele bustos <ixim_mbustos wrote:

> We made some SCREAMING GOOD stuffed portobello caps

> yesterday, that dehydrated for only about 5-8 hours

> (just to wilt). I know u are anti-mushroom, as I am

> usually (i just can't see how they could be good for

> you since they are fungus). We made a tomato/black

> olive sauce and filled the shroom caps. They were

> like mushroom olive PIZZAs!

=====

[...there'll be love and laughter,

and peace ever after,

just you wait and see...

---Vera Lynn]

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January 22, 2005

JP, great answer...thanks. I do think that unless there are toxins that I cannot

smell or taste, that I shall be able to tell the condition of the dehydrated

food by smell and taste. I'm fairly sensitive. Except for the flax crackers

which I dehydrated nearly dry (and are lasting over two weeks)...the other foods

need to be used fairly quickly after they come out of the dehydrator. I'm fairly

new to using my Excalibur. So will just experiment. Blessings,

Diana of Dewberry Hill

Adding anti-bacterial ingredients like lemon juice or ginger might help stave

off some bacteria, but I'm worried too that high-temp dehydrating is a

crapshoot. Sometimes batches from the same recipe seem to turn out very

differently. There are the two issues, of toxins and breakdown products (esp.

with fats, such as in flaxseed, going rancid) from the food sitting out above

100 deg. F, and then the amount/kind of bacteria from such experimental

fermentation.

Yet I wouldn't want to dissuade someone from trying to incorporate flax in their

diet, since it would seem that omega-3 deficiency is a major cause of concern

for vegans (e.g. Dr, Klaper's study of vegans, North American Veg. Society's

recommendation for omega-3 supplementation among vegans). What I really wish we

had were low-temp. vacuum dehydrators, operating just above 32 deg. F. If and

when I obtain/build one, I'll let you know. JP

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January 22, 2005

Fantastic post, Michele! Warmed me up just reading it. Thanks for sharing your

fun recipes and ideas. It's going to be 16 degrees here tonight. I may have a

cup of my warm jasmine tea ;-) Dehydrator is in the city and I'm at the cabin

with a fire in the stove and wood piled high. BTW...last time I used the

dehydrator I made Alissa's eggplant Parmesan. Was pretty good...it wanted a

green salad on the plate, too. I think dehydrator meals need raw companions.

Blessings,

Diana of Dewberry Hill

I have not been sick yet! also, I can't imagine planting one of those stuffed

zucchini and " seeing it grow/sprout " as we expect from our LIVE foods. I think

dehydrated is a lesser choice but it's helped me get through the winter.

Thoughts?

/m

The all-new My – What will yours do?

January 22, 2005

Hi Diana,

Re: 1) does any undesirable bacteria form on the food over the period of

time it is in the dehydrator. Some recipes are as long as 48 hours. I'm

making Alissa Cohen's eggplant parmasan right now and it says to dehydrate

at 105 degrees for 14-18 hours. This dish has tomatoes in it.

Response: Check out Rainbow Green Live Food Cuisine By Gabriel Cousens, MD

pp. 155-156 and the Excalibur Dehydration Guide pp.15-16. Cousens writes, in

part:

" It has been suggested by Edward Howell in his book Food Enzymes for Health

and Longevity that food enzymes are destroyed when food temperature reaches

115-120 degrees F. However, recent research by The Excalibur Dehydrator

Company suggests that it is actually better to begin the dehydration process

at 145 degrees F for the initial stage of the drying process. The reasoning

is that as the food is dehydrating, it literally " sweats out " the moisture

it contains. This moisture inside the dehydrator reduces the food

temperature, as much as 20-25 degrees. "

" This information changes how we think about the entire process of food

dehydration. It means that the safest way to dehydrate is to begin drying at

145 degrees F for a maximum of three hours for foods with a high water

content. After this the temperature is set in the " normal " range of 110-115

degrees F through the completion of the drying process. By doing this we are

inhibiting bacterial growth by reducing the time the food spends in the

dehydrator. The longer that a food is in the dehydrator, the more potential

exists for the enzymes to be destroyed, even at lower temperatures.

Low-temperature dehydration for sustained time, as practiced for years by

the live-food community, may not be safe because sustained low-temperature

dehydration encourages bacterial growth and fermentation. At the Tree of

Life we feel that the new approach is both safer and more efficient. "

Hope you find this helpful! This is what I do for all recipes, even those

from books other than Rainbow Green Live Food Cuisine.

All the best,

Jennifer

January 23, 2005

I think dehydrator meals need raw companions.

ok, now u got my wheels spinning again! we dehydrate falafel balls (they are

really more like thick discs). THEN we eat them on salad with fresh arugula

with some raw tahini dressing we make. they are FABULOUS.

this week we want to try to make a taco/mexi loaf or something.

i still love the dehydrator, esp cause i'm soooo damn cold in winter. but it

really does add a nice " filler " to an otherwise similar simple salad.

Let me know if you have any tacoish ideas!

aloha!

/m

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January 24, 2005

Hi,

I'm limited in typing ability now due to injured right arm (tendonitis), but

when I was dehydrating more, I found the products that stayed moist (like veggie

patties, etc.) would refrigerate well up to one week before they became

unpalatable, while the drier forms, like crackers, could store indefinitely in

the frig. hope this helps...