Guest guest Posted January 27, 2005 Report Share Posted January 27, 2005 John! I'm a hygienist and I have to back Victoria up as there are certain foods that are better assimilated lightly steamed/cooked than not. An example would be kale and broccoli. I don't even eat broccoli because it a hybrid but I do eat kale on occasion in a steamed constitution. I won't get into the scientific aspect of it but it is true. Dr Joel Fuhrman MD " Fasting and Eating for Health " also believes this way. Bottom line is.we are all pioneers. I eat mostly living food but am not an advocate of 100 % for several reasons. If you are sick and trying to get to a solid baseline...then yes by all means do the 100% thing until you find your place. Its surely a great foundation to start fasting from which we should all be doing! Much success on your journey www.rawfriends.com <http://www.rawfriends.com/> John de la Garza [john] Friday, January 28, 2005 2:23 AM rawfood [Raw Food] there are no gurus I just got back from hearing Mrs. Boutanko speak. She said something that makes me think a bit different. She said, that there are no raw food gurus and we are all pioneers. She said we don't have hundreds or thousands of years of raw food history. Wrong or right, it makes me think a bit more and look for answers based on my experiences and what I see She also said something that surprised me, she said oxalic acid is only seen in cooked spinach. I raised my hand and said I think it is the other way around and only in raw and cooking breaks it down. She said no. I asked are you %100 sure (my wife kicked me under the table). She said yes and I left it at that as not to argue in front of 60 people with the guest speaker. I have never read anything that confirms what she says. On the contrary eveything I can find says cooking breaks it down. I don't understand why she would say that. --------------------------- One fourth of what you eat keeps you alive. The other three-fourths keep your doctor alive. _____ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2005 Report Share Posted January 28, 2005 Hey hey, I actually once went to a raw-food festival in London, and found that the speakers were no more informed than I was, and sometimes they seemed less so. In fact they seemed to simply be adherents of the dogma of their own particular branch of raw-foodism, whether it was Hippocrates or Natural Hygiene. Haha I hope they're not on this list or I'm in for a grilling (or perhaps more appropriately, a dehydration). It would be a lot better to impress people with the results, which are self-evident and overwhelmingly positive, than to try and ram theories and dogma down people's throats. Let's not spout psuedo-scientific garbage until we're REALLY sure about it! Love and Light, Graeme rawfood , John de la Garza <john@j...> wrote: > I just got back from hearing Mrs. Boutanko speak. She said something > that makes me think a bit different. > > She said, that there are no raw food gurus and we are all pioneers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2005 Report Share Posted January 28, 2005 Hi, John, I copied this particular information from Dr. Graham's veg source group (unfortunately, the responder did not give his source for this information, so I can't link you there); just thought it might be helpful: " Yes, raw spinach is okay and an healthy food Oxalic acid is even needed by our body for many functions, uncluding permitting peristalsis and plays an important role in colon health, so much that when it is not got through the diet, the body synthesizes it from ascorbic acid When you cook the spinach the heat crystalizes, destroying it, the acid particles making them salt atoms, then the crystalized particles you obtain called oxalate bind with other salts such as calcium and potassium and they become stones Thus the calcium becomes unavailable and stones are therefore created So if we want to be precise, it's not the oxalic acid that bind with other minerals making them bio-unavailable, but oxalates that are only formed when heat destroy adn then crystalize the acid particles " John de la Garza <john wrote:I just got back from hearing Mrs. Boutanko speak. She said something that makes me think a bit different. She said, that there are no raw food gurus and we are all pioneers. She said we don't have hundreds or thousands of years of raw food history. Wrong or right, it makes me think a bit more and look for answers based on my experiences and what I see She also said something that surprised me, she said oxalic acid is only seen in cooked spinach. I raised my hand and said I think it is the other way around and only in raw and cooking breaks it down. She said no. I asked are you %100 sure (my wife kicked me under the table). She said yes and I left it at that as not to argue in front of 60 people with the guest speaker. I have never read anything that confirms what she says. On the contrary eveything I can find says cooking breaks it down. I don't understand why she would say that. --------------------------- One fourth of what you eat keeps you alive. The other three-fourths keep your doctor alive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2005 Report Share Posted January 28, 2005 She's right. Oxalic acid is only in cooked spinach. Even my body tells me so every time I eat cooked spinach John de la Garza <john wrote:I just got back from hearing Mrs. Boutanko speak. She said something that makes me think a bit different. She said, that there are no raw food gurus and we are all pioneers. She said we don't have hundreds or thousands of years of raw food history. Wrong or right, it makes me think a bit more and look for answers based on my experiences and what I see She also said something that surprised me, she said oxalic acid is only seen in cooked spinach. I raised my hand and said I think it is the other way around and only in raw and cooking breaks it down. She said no. I asked are you %100 sure (my wife kicked me under the table). She said yes and I left it at that as not to argue in front of 60 people with the guest speaker. I have never read anything that confirms what she says. On the contrary eveything I can find says cooking breaks it down. I don't understand why she would say that. --------------------------- One fourth of what you eat keeps you alive. The other three-fourths keep your doctor alive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2005 Report Share Posted January 28, 2005 Well, at least you " got a kick out of it! " :-) tev --- John de la Garza <john wrote: > She also said something that surprised me, she said > oxalic acid is only > seen in cooked spinach. I raised my hand and said I > think it is the > other way around and only in raw and cooking breaks > it down. She said > no. I asked are you %100 sure (my wife kicked me > under the table). ===== [...there'll be love and laughter, and peace ever after, just you wait and see... ---Vera Lynn] Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail./mail_250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2005 Report Share Posted January 28, 2005 but she said that Oxalix acid is only formed when cooking, my point was that made me doubt alot of what she said after that. When I asked her she got a bit defensive (in my opinion) and said she was absolutly %100 positive she was right (she's wasn't) I've heard to eat it and not to eat it (oxalic acid), I'm a bit confused, although this post you gave makes sense, but so do the messages that say not to eat it at all my dogs love it, I don't know if that means anything, they also love chocolate which could hurt them far worse than hurt us On Jan 28, 2005, at 7:26 AM, Valerie Mills Daly wrote: > > Hi, John, I copied this particular information from Dr. Graham's veg > source group (unfortunately, the responder did not give his source for > this information, so I can't link you there); just thought it might be > helpful: > > " Yes, raw spinach is okay and an healthy food > Oxalic acid is even needed by our body for many functions, uncluding > permitting peristalsis and plays an important role in colon health, so > much that when it is not got through the diet, the body synthesizes it > from ascorbic acid > When you cook the spinach the heat crystalizes, destroying it, the > acid particles making them salt atoms, then the crystalized particles > you obtain called oxalate bind with other salts such as calcium and > potassium and they become stones > Thus the calcium becomes unavailable and stones are therefore created > So if we want to be precise, it's not the oxalic acid that bind with > other minerals making them bio-unavailable, but oxalates that are only > formed when heat destroy adn then crystalize the acid particles " > > John de la Garza <john wrote:I just got back from hearing > Mrs. Boutanko speak. She said something > that makes me think a bit different. > > She said, that there are no raw food gurus and we are all pioneers. > > She said we don't have hundreds or thousands of years of raw food > history. Wrong or right, it makes me think a bit more and look for > answers based > on my experiences and what I see > > She also said something that surprised me, she said oxalic acid is only > seen in cooked spinach. I raised my hand and said I think it is the > other way around and only in raw and cooking breaks it down. She said > no. I asked are you %100 sure (my wife kicked me under the table). > She said yes and I left it at that as not to argue in front of 60 > people with the guest speaker. > > I have never read anything that confirms what she says. On the > contrary eveything I can find says cooking breaks it down. I don't > understand why she would say that. > > > --------------------------- > One fourth of what you eat keeps you alive. The other three-fourths > keep your doctor alive. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2005 Report Share Posted January 28, 2005 why do you say this? go to 10 biochemestry sights and they are all saying it is broken down by heat I've never seen any reputable source saying the opposite How does you body tell you there is Oxalic acid in cooked spinach and none in raw? On Jan 28, 2005, at 8:12 AM, vy Dominic wrote: > > She's right. Oxalic acid is only in cooked spinach. Even my body tells > me so every time I eat cooked spinach > > John de la Garza <john wrote:I just got back from hearing > Mrs. Boutanko speak. She said something > that makes me think a bit different. > > She said, that there are no raw food gurus and we are all pioneers. > > She said we don't have hundreds or thousands of years of raw food > history. Wrong or right, it makes me think a bit more and look for > answers based > on my experiences and what I see > > She also said something that surprised me, she said oxalic acid is only > seen in cooked spinach. I raised my hand and said I think it is the > other way around and only in raw and cooking breaks it down. She said > no. I asked are you %100 sure (my wife kicked me under the table). > She said yes and I left it at that as not to argue in front of 60 > people with the guest speaker. > > I have never read anything that confirms what she says. On the > contrary eveything I can find says cooking breaks it down. I don't > understand why she would say that. > > > --------------------------- > One fourth of what you eat keeps you alive. The other three-fourths > keep your doctor alive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2005 Report Share Posted January 28, 2005 well, she started by stating that there are no gurus yea, specially when new age/spiritual things are taught as fact It is a complicated issue, I mean if some wierd teaching is real they should be teaching it, but there are so many contradictions it is confusing On Jan 28, 2005, at 6:48 AM, Graeme wrote: > > > > Hey hey, > > I actually once went to a raw-food festival in London, and found that > the speakers were no more informed than I was, and sometimes they > seemed less so. In fact they seemed to simply be adherents of the > dogma of their own particular branch of raw-foodism, whether it was > Hippocrates or Natural Hygiene. Haha I hope they're not on this list > or I'm in for a grilling (or perhaps more appropriately, a > dehydration). > > It would be a lot better to impress people with the results, which are > self-evident and overwhelmingly positive, than to try and ram theories > and dogma down people's throats. Let's not spout psuedo-scientific > garbage until we're REALLY sure about it! > > Love and Light, > > Graeme Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2005 Report Share Posted January 28, 2005 back her up? She is not advocating steaming or cooking, what do you mean? She says cooking creates oxalic acid, I say it breaks it down. She insists on %100 raw (I agree with her on that, I feel if you must cook it, you don't need to eat it for optimal health) On Jan 27, 2005, at 11:38 PM, Steven wrote: > > > John! > > > > I'm a hygienist and I have to back Victoria up as there are certain > foods > that are better assimilated lightly steamed/cooked than not. An example > would be kale and broccoli. I don't even eat broccoli because it a > hybrid > but I do eat kale on occasion in a steamed constitution. I won't get > into > the scientific aspect of it but it is true. Dr Joel Fuhrman MD > " Fasting and > Eating for Health " also believes this way. Bottom line is.we are all > pioneers. I eat mostly living food but am not an advocate of 100 % for > several reasons. If you are sick and trying to get to a solid > baseline...then yes by all means do the 100% thing until you find your > place. Its surely a great foundation to start fasting from which we > should > all be doing! > > > > Much success on your journey > > > > www.rawfriends.com <http://www.rawfriends.com/> > > > > > John de la Garza [john] > Friday, January 28, 2005 2:23 AM > rawfood > [Raw Food] there are no gurus > > > > I just got back from hearing Mrs. Boutanko speak. She said something > that makes me think a bit different. > > She said, that there are no raw food gurus and we are all pioneers. > > She said we don't have hundreds or thousands of years of raw food > history. Wrong or right, it makes me think a bit more and look for > answers based > on my experiences and what I see > > She also said something that surprised me, she said oxalic acid is only > seen in cooked spinach. I raised my hand and said I think it is the > other way around and only in raw and cooking breaks it down. She said > no. I asked are you %100 sure (my wife kicked me under the table). > She said yes and I left it at that as not to argue in front of 60 > people with the guest speaker. > > I have never read anything that confirms what she says. On the > contrary eveything I can find says cooking breaks it down. I don't > understand why she would say that. > > > --------------------------- > One fourth of what you eat keeps you alive. The other three-fourths > keep your doctor alive. > > > > > _____ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2005 Report Share Posted January 28, 2005 One thing I have learned about Victoria Boutenko's work is the best part of it is the experiential, inspirational part. In one (maybe both) of her books, she acknowledges that she is no scientist, but will believe something is true based on her experience. She makes a lot of interesting claims in her books about percentages, etc., that I just let go of, and just take what I can use of her stories and experience. I go for the scientific sources elsewhere. It's also one of the reasons she states in her own writing that we have to learn to listen to our bodies and see what works for us. She talks about when she started out, and kept hearing all these conflicting voices in the raw foods movement--nuts are fine, don't eat nuts, eat lots of fruit, don't eat so much fruit, grains are okay, not okay, etc. By the time we are done hearing all these voices, there is nothing left to eat! All that to say, with the Boutenkos, as with anyone else in the raw food world, take what you can use and leave the rest. Peace, Valerie John de la Garza <john wrote: but she said that Oxalix acid is only formed when cooking, my point was that made me doubt alot of what she said after that. When I asked her she got a bit defensive (in my opinion) and said she was absolutly %100 positive she was right (she's wasn't) I've heard to eat it and not to eat it (oxalic acid), I'm a bit confused, although this post you gave makes sense, but so do the messages that say not to eat it at all my dogs love it, I don't know if that means anything, they also love chocolate which could hurt them far worse than hurt us Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 Hey, Based on..... what? There are to many raw-foodists and new agers who are like " I believe it therefore it's true " . You're body isn't telling you that there's oxalic acid in cooked spinach. It's merely telling you it doesn't like cooked spinach. That's because it's cooked! Love and Light, Graeme rawfood , vy Dominic <adyysa> wrote: > She's right. Oxalic acid is only in cooked spinach. Even my body tells me so every time I eat cooked spinach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 Valerie, You expressed my concerns exactly. I think there's lots of mixed-up people in the raw community. Some of them, if the truth be known, are not really raw at all! They " intend " to eat raw for a few days and they don't count the pizza for lunch at the office. Then they get their cravinngs back and they're off and running for another two weeks. Then they come back and they're raw again. At least, that's the way I do it (so far). There's lots of unhealthy food that you can eat " raw. " There are no gurus. However, I believe that some of us do have cholesterol around 100, BMI around 20, B/P around 100/66, pulse around 55, etc. Those are the people I want to listen to! I wonder how they do it! It's been my experience that such people don't eat cheese! They don't seem to drink alcohol or smoke, if I am correct. They are not on " diets; " they live a healthy lifestyle. I can tell by looking at someone whether or not I want to emulate them. I can tell by talking with someone on the internet whether or not I like their ideas. There are no gurus, but we're not totally in the dark either! Ron rawfood , Valerie Mills Daly <valdaly> wrote: > One thing I have learned about Victoria Boutenko's work is the best part of it is the experiential, inspirational part. In one (maybe both) of her books, she acknowledges that she is no scientist, but will believe something is true based on her experience. She makes a lot of interesting claims in her books about percentages, etc., that I just let go of, and just take what I can use of her stories and experience. I go for the scientific sources elsewhere. > > It's also one of the reasons she states in her own writing that we have to learn to listen to our bodies and see what works for us. She talks about when she started out, and kept hearing all these conflicting voices in the raw foods movement--nuts are fine, don't eat nuts, eat lots of fruit, don't eat so much fruit, grains are okay, not okay, etc. By the time we are done hearing all these voices, there is nothing left to eat! > > All that to say, with the Boutenkos, as with anyone else in the raw food world, take what you can use and leave the rest. > > Peace, > Valerie > > > John de la Garza <john@j...> wrote: > but she said that Oxalix acid is only formed when cooking, my point was > that made me doubt alot of what she said after that. > > When I asked her she got a bit defensive (in my opinion) and said she > was absolutly %100 positive she was right (she's wasn't) > > I've heard to eat it and not to eat it (oxalic acid), I'm a bit > confused, although this post you gave makes sense, but so do the > messages that say not to eat it at all > > my dogs love it, I don't know if that means anything, they also love > chocolate which could hurt them far worse than hurt us > > > > Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 so true so many people want there feelings to fit what they want raw foods to be Like people saying Jesus Christ says to be vegan and raw. Peoplel want what they feel and really believe to be inline with raw food. I do believe %100 raw food is the way to go anything less is a comprimise but OK just not ideal. I'm %100 most of the time, but from time to to I'll eat somthing special (vegan for political reasons) On Jan 29, 2005, at 4:55 AM, Graeme wrote: > > > Hey, > > Based on..... what? There are to many raw-foodists and new agers who > are like " I believe it therefore it's true " . You're body isn't > telling you that there's oxalic acid in cooked spinach. > It's merely telling you it doesn't like cooked spinach. That's > because it's cooked! > > Love and Light, > > Graeme > > rawfood , vy Dominic <adyysa> wrote: >> She's right. Oxalic acid is only in cooked spinach. Even my body > tells me so every time I eat cooked spinach > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2005 Report Share Posted January 29, 2005 It that a bit of raw humor Graeme? Is it uncooked humor? I think we need a raw comic, like the unknown comic of the Gong Show. A guy willing to stand on stage, sporting a skillet on his head, and generally make an idiot out of himself... :-) tev --- Graeme <kimonokraken wrote: > Based on..... what? There are to many raw-foodists > and new agers who > are like " I believe it therefore it's true " . You're > body isn't > telling you that there's oxalic acid in cooked > spinach. > It's merely telling you it doesn't like cooked > spinach. That's > because it's cooked! ===== [...there'll be love and laughter, and peace ever after, just you wait and see... ---Vera Lynn] Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail./mail_250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2005 Report Share Posted January 30, 2005 Oh heaven forfend that I should become a deliberate practitioner of 'raw-food humour'. Any I've seen so far is terrible, like, even less funny than Seinfeld. As for making an idiot of myself, there's no need. I'm a natural-born idiot in any case! I always break the ice by telling people I only eat moss and gravel. I'm reminded of Lisa Simpson's friend who's a " Level 5 vegan: I don't eat anything that casts a shadow " . Love and Light, Graeme rawfood , tev treowlufu <coac2002> wrote: > > It that a bit of raw humor Graeme? > Is it uncooked humor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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