Guest guest Posted February 3, 2005 Report Share Posted February 3, 2005 http://www.rawfoodsupport.com/read.php?f=10 & i=2632 & t=2632 Re: censorship at NFL Author: doghouse reilly 02-22-04 14:45 Here's the post that was deleted at the rawfood.com forum: begin quote: “Nature’s First Law: The Raw Food Diet” was blatantly plagiarized (we're talking mostly word for word) from the writings of an Armenian man living in Iran, Arshavir Ter Hovannessian, two of whose children had died from tragic illness. He sought out the cause of true health and raised his third child totally raw vegan and cured himself of many ailments. He lived a very simple life and devoted all of his time to spreading the message of raw foods. He gave away his books for free, and refused to accept money for them. Living in Iran, which was not exactly the land of opportunity at that time, he did not have the means and possibilities that exist in America. David Wolfe, Stephen Arlin, and R.C. Dini chose to completely plagiarize his masterpiece without giving a shred of acknowledgement. They could have reprinted his book, giving full credit, they could have concerned themselves with the idea that perhaps the man had family or friends, or children, in Iran who could have benefited from the proceeds of the book, they could have at least acknowledged their source. Instead, they passed off as their own creativity and thought some of the most compelling, forceful words ever written on the subject of raw veganism. When confronted with the fact that it was known that they did this, they at first fiercely denied it, then invented stories about the man being a relative of theirs, then finally realizing that they had better include an acknowlegement of thanks to Hovanessian, which was not included in the first few editions of their book. They still continue to give themselves authorship on the cover of the book, with no credit given to Hovanessian, when in fact the huge bulk of the book is due to his time, his effort, and his creativity. As I said, Hovanessian was greatly disturbed when another man passed his work off as his own and SOLD IT FOR MONEY. Here are some quotes from that exchange, included in Hovanessians book " Raw Eating " . " That unscrupulous gentleman....copies word for word every one of the six maxims given on the cover of my book and, together with my principal findings, inserts the article in the February and April, 1965, issues of the " Let's Live " Magazine as part of an article entitled " Adventures In Raw Foods. " Mr Reinecke oversteps the bounds of decency to such an extent that he reserves for himself the copyrights of the thoughts and expressions that belong to me, and offers to sell additional information at the price of 5$ apiece....This act is a glaring offence against international copyright laws and should be condemned unreservedly. People should not read such a publication as the " Lets Live " Magazine, which thrives on the advertisements of artificial vitamins and " dietetic " preparations. Now, for over a decade, I have forsaken social life and have deprived myself of every pleasure. I have been extremely frugal in regard to the needs of my family and myself, but have not hesitated for a moment to spend all my savings in carrying out studies and publishing books, 10,000 copies of which I have already distributed free to scientific organizations and individuals in all the corners of the earth. I have made these sacrifices in order to show the whole world the way to a happy and natural life, and all along I have protested with my heart and soul against selling such advice for money. But today, Mr.J.M.Reinecke, making a lucrative use of my ideas and my maxims, demands a fee of $5 to show people how to eat natural foodstuffs! This is, indeed, the most disturbing aspect of the question. " --- oak1day <claire wrote: > Some reviewers said that these new folks like Wolfe > were too > strident and 'just ripping off' Norman Walker's work > and were not > advocating enough of a calm scientific approach as > was present at > the beginning of the century. well, I don't know > about that! > oak1day ===== [...there'll be love and laughter, and peace ever after, just you wait and see... ---Vera Lynn] The all-new My - Get yours free! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2005 Report Share Posted February 3, 2005 Thanks, yeah that was it: Hovannessian oak1day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2005 Report Share Posted February 3, 2005 Hello all, I've heard a lot about this, and it looks fairly overwhelming. It seems fairly clear-cut doesn't it? Wolfe et al are money-grabbing, unscrupulous plagiarists. Not really that surprising is it? Why would raw-foodists be necessarily more ethical and honest than other people? Answer: they aren't. And I say that as a raw-foodist. I've met dishonest raw foodists, I've met saintly meat-eaters too. I abhor the raw-food 'gurus' that charge vast amounts of money for their services, and I pity the people who feel they need to hand over all that money. Surely this is not the way to bring raw-foodism to the greatest number of people possible. How about a boycott of the gurus, and instead rely on each other here, and ourselves? And use our own logical faculties and ingenuity for a change? Another point. There's fairly powerful evidence that plants react to pain and threat just as animals and humans do. If you want more details let me know. Consequently there are those of us who need to get off certain moral high-horses. Except the fruitarians I guess, haha, they don't kill anything! Love and Light, Graeme x rawfood , tev treowlufu <coac2002> wrote: > > http://www.rawfoodsupport.com/read.php?f=10 & i=2632 & t=2632 > > Re: censorship at NFL > > Here's the post that was deleted at the rawfood.com > forum: > > " Nature's First Law: The Raw Food Diet " was blatantly > plagiarized (we're talking mostly word for word) from > the writings of an Armenian man living in Iran, > Arshavir Ter Hovannessian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2005 Report Share Posted February 3, 2005 I agree. I am really big on sharing info, not selling what can help people. People should publish what they have if they think that what they have can help others. there is a way of writing software where everything is shared and people are allowed to contribute it is called open source the idea applies to knowledge and the development of it here is a link to a earth shattering piece of literature that really had an impact in the way software dev has been done: http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/ I think anyone with an idea can to this way of thinking... we are the users (raw foodists) and some of us are developers (people who are actively searching and pioneering raw food) On Feb 3, 2005, at 4:22 PM, Graeme wrote: > I abhor the raw-food 'gurus' that charge vast amounts of money for > their services, and I pity the people who feel they need to hand over > all that money. Surely this is not the way to bring raw-foodism to > the greatest number of people possible. How about a boycott of the > gurus, and instead rely on each other here, and ourselves? And use > our own logical faculties and ingenuity for a change? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 This is the first time that I have seen the name of John Martin Reineke mentioned in the raw foods world in years. My mother bought the info that he sold back in the 1960's for $5.00 and I still have the paper. What ever happened to John Martin Reineke? Melba - " tev treowlufu " <coac2002 <rawfood > Thursday, 03 February, 2005 12:47 PM [Raw Food] Caveat Emptor! > > > http://www.rawfoodsupport.com/read.php?f=10 & i=2632 & t=2632 > > Re: censorship at NFL > Author: doghouse reilly > 02-22-04 14:45 > > Here's the post that was deleted at the rawfood.com > forum: > > begin quote: > > " Nature's First Law: The Raw Food Diet " was blatantly > plagiarized (we're talking mostly word for word) from > the writings of an Armenian man living in Iran, > Arshavir Ter Hovannessian, two of whose children had > died from tragic illness. He sought out the cause of > true health and raised his third child totally raw > vegan and cured himself of many ailments. He lived a > very simple life and devoted all of his time to > spreading the message of raw foods. He gave away his > books for free, and refused to accept money for them. > Living in Iran, which was not exactly the land of > opportunity at that time, he did not have the means > and possibilities that exist in America. David Wolfe, > Stephen Arlin, and R.C. Dini chose to completely > plagiarize his masterpiece without giving a shred of > acknowledgement. They could have reprinted his book, > giving full credit, they could have concerned > themselves with the idea that perhaps the man had > family or friends, or children, in Iran who could have > benefited from the proceeds of the book, they could > have at least acknowledged their source. Instead, they > passed off as their own creativity and thought some of > the most compelling, forceful words ever written on > the subject of raw veganism. When confronted with the > fact that it was known that they did this, they at > first fiercely denied it, then invented stories about > the man being a relative of theirs, then finally > realizing that they had better include an > acknowlegement of thanks to Hovanessian, which was not > included in the first few editions of their book. They > still continue to give themselves authorship on the > cover of the book, with no credit given to > Hovanessian, when in fact the huge bulk of the book is > due to his time, his effort, and his creativity. > As I said, Hovanessian was greatly disturbed when > another man passed his work off as his own and SOLD IT > FOR MONEY. Here are some quotes from that exchange, > included in Hovanessians book " Raw Eating " . > " That unscrupulous gentleman....copies word for word > every one of the six maxims given on the cover of my > book and, together with my principal findings, inserts > the article in the February and April, 1965, issues of > the " Let's Live " Magazine as part of an article > entitled " Adventures In Raw Foods. " > Mr Reinecke oversteps the bounds of decency to such an > extent that he reserves for himself the copyrights of > the thoughts and expressions that belong to me, and > offers to sell additional information at the price of > 5$ apiece....This act is a glaring offence against > international copyright laws and should be condemned > unreservedly. People should not read such a > publication as the " Lets Live " Magazine, which thrives > on the advertisements of artificial vitamins and > " dietetic " preparations. > Now, for over a decade, I have forsaken social life > and have deprived myself of every pleasure. I have > been extremely frugal in regard to the needs of my > family and myself, but have not hesitated for a moment > to spend all my savings in carrying out studies and > publishing books, 10,000 copies of which I have > already distributed free to scientific organizations > and individuals in all the corners of the earth. I > have made these sacrifices in order to show the whole > world the way to a happy and natural life, and all > along I have protested with my heart and soul against > selling such advice for money. > But today, Mr.J.M.Reinecke, making a lucrative use of > my ideas and my maxims, demands a fee of $5 to show > people how to eat natural foodstuffs! This is, indeed, > the most disturbing aspect of the question. " > > --- oak1day <claire wrote: > > > Some reviewers said that these new folks like Wolfe > > were too > > strident and 'just ripping off' Norman Walker's work > > and were not > > advocating enough of a calm scientific approach as > > was present at > > the beginning of the century. well, I don't know > > about that! > > > oak1day > > > ===== > [...there'll be love and laughter, > and peace ever after, > just you wait and see... > ---Vera Lynn] > > > > > > The all-new My - Get yours free! > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 I knew I liked this group! I don't know enough to have a big problem with David Wolfe and co. and like I say, some friends of mine are absolute fans and I love my friends and respect their take on things. So that counts for something with me. They like his tone as much as anything, as opposed to that of the Natural Hygienist folks. But I'd personally take the books that are old and out of style but have the same info any day if they are 25% of the price! I just got the Norman Walker books I rodered and they are great. That is not even touching on the issue of where the line is between plagiarizing and developing someone else's ideas. The examples given here regarding that Iranian (Iraq?) raw food pioneer indicate a justifiable accusation fo plagiarism and a real crime. But sometimes people are accused of that when they are building on someone else's work and taking it in another direction either in tone or substance. But I have been heartened to see this kind of dialogue on watching out for shysters, finding out where ideas started, and the sharing of info. I like you guys. :-) Yes open source software is where it's at! And all this does go with the idea of raw food apart from the nutitional aspect. Using what is there for us to use and believing as an article of faith, that working together will not lead to personal loss. My husband just taught himself how to set up a virtual 'shopping cart' using open source software that contained a full and detailed set of instructions. That may seem like a contradiction in my terms if we are setting up a SHOPPING CART (laughing) but we are trying to help my son set up a business and it won't be a business ripping people off. The existence of open source software allows the every day person to advance knowledge and play with the big boys without the benefit of a fancy school. oak1day rawfood , John de la Garza <john@j...> wrote: > I agree. I am really big on sharing info, not selling what can help > people. People should publish what they have if they think that what > they have can help others. > > there is a way of writing software where everything is shared and > people are allowed to contribute > it is called open source > > the idea applies to knowledge and the development of it > > here is a link to a earth shattering piece of literature that really > had an impact in the way software dev has been done: > > http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/ > > I think anyone with an idea can to this way of thinking... we > are the users (raw foodists) and some of us > are developers (people who are actively searching and pioneering raw > food) > > > On Feb 3, 2005, at 4:22 PM, Graeme wrote: > > I abhor the raw-food 'gurus' that charge vast amounts of money for > > their services, and I pity the people who feel they need to hand over > > all that money. Surely this is not the way to bring raw-foodism to > > the greatest number of people possible. How about a boycott of the > > gurus, and instead rely on each other here, and ourselves? And use > > our own logical faculties and ingenuity for a change? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 That's part of why I eat raw. rawfood , tev treowlufu <coac2002> wrote: > I > have made these sacrifices in order to show the whole > world the way to a happy and natural life... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 Hey there, I found looking through this website quite fascinating, thank you! I recommend it to others here, even though it has nothing to do with food, raw or otherwise. Let's turn raw-foodism into a gift culture, before it's entirely gobbled up in a commericialist feeding frenzy! Love and Light, Graeme rawfood , John de la Garza <john@j...> wrote: > I agree. I am really big on sharing info, not selling what can help > people. People should publish what they have if they think that what > they have can help others. > here is a link to a earth shattering piece of literature that really > had an impact in the way software dev has been done: > > http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/ > > I think anyone with an idea can to this way of thinking... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 I like what you said about relying on one another and not the gurus! I think we give away too much of our power to gurus, preists, authority figures of every ilk instead of searching out and proving truth for ourselves. Tesser Graeme <kimonokraken wrote: Hello all, I've heard a lot about this, and it looks fairly overwhelming. It seems fairly clear-cut doesn't it? Wolfe et al are money-grabbing, unscrupulous plagiarists. Not really that surprising is it? Why would raw-foodists be necessarily more ethical and honest than other people? Answer: they aren't. And I say that as a raw-foodist. I've met dishonest raw foodists, I've met saintly meat-eaters too. I abhor the raw-food 'gurus' that charge vast amounts of money for their services, and I pity the people who feel they need to hand over all that money. Surely this is not the way to bring raw-foodism to the greatest number of people possible. How about a boycott of the gurus, and instead rely on each other here, and ourselves? And use our own logical faculties and ingenuity for a change? Another point. There's fairly powerful evidence that plants react to pain and threat just as animals and humans do. If you want more details let me know. Consequently there are those of us who need to get off certain moral high-horses. Except the fruitarians I guess, haha, they don't kill anything! Love and Light, Graeme x rawfood , tev treowlufu <coac2002> wrote: > > http://www.rawfoodsupport.com/read.php?f=10 & i=2632 & t=2632 > > Re: censorship at NFL > > Here's the post that was deleted at the rawfood.com > forum: > > " Nature's First Law: The Raw Food Diet " was blatantly > plagiarized (we're talking mostly word for word) from > the writings of an Armenian man living in Iran, > Arshavir Ter Hovannessian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2005 Report Share Posted February 4, 2005 I too. This forum can work as a resource for us, if we decide on that. Fascinating site. I'll be spending some time there... Thanks for the link, John. BTW, didn't Linux use this ideology to develop their open source code software? Or are they the pioneers of that sort of code stylization? tev --- John de la Garza <john wrote: > I agree. I am really big on sharing info, not > people are allowed to contribute > it is called open source > http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/ ---On Feb 3, 2005, at 4:22 PM, Graeme wrote: >and instead rely on each other here, and > ourselves? ===== [...there'll be love and laughter, and peace ever after, just you wait and see... ---Vera Lynn] Take Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile./maildemo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 Right on, Tess! We all have the ability to research and experiment and make our own decisions. Empower yourself! Love and Light, Graeme rawfood , Tess West <tesser2u> wrote: > > I like what you said about relying on one another and not the gurus! I think we give away too much of our power to gurus, preists, authority figures of every ilk instead of searching out and proving truth for ourselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2005 Report Share Posted February 5, 2005 First, it's irresponsible to make an accusation like this in a public forum unless you can provide evidence that supports your claim, and from what I can see you're tarnishing the reputation of someone you don't know on the basis of unsubstantiated gossip you read online. Second, David Wolfe has done more to promote raw food in the U.S. and around the world than anyone else, and if this lifestyle enters the mainstream in the way that vegetarianism has, it will be because of his hard work and dedication. If it weren't for him you probably wouldn't even be logged on to this site. rawfood , " Graeme " <kimonokraken> wrote: > > > Hello all, > > I've heard a lot about this, and it looks fairly overwhelming. > > It seems fairly clear-cut doesn't it? Wolfe et al are money- grabbing, > unscrupulous plagiarists. Not really that surprising is it? Why > would raw-foodists be necessarily more ethical and honest than other > people? Answer: they aren't. And I say that as a raw-foodist. I've > met dishonest raw foodists, I've met saintly meat-eaters too. > > I abhor the raw-food 'gurus' that charge vast amounts of money for > their services, and I pity the people who feel they need to hand over > all that money. Surely this is not the way to bring raw-foodism to > the greatest number of people possible. How about a boycott of the > gurus, and instead rely on each other here, and ourselves? And use > our own logical faculties and ingenuity for a change? > > Another point. There's fairly powerful evidence that plants react to > pain and threat just as animals and humans do. If you want more > details let me know. Consequently there are those of us who need to > get off certain moral high-horses. Except the fruitarians I guess, > haha, they don't kill anything! > > Love and Light, > > Graeme x > > rawfood , tev treowlufu <coac2002> wrote: > > > > http://www.rawfoodsupport.com/read.php?f=10 & i=2632 & t=2632 > > > > Re: censorship at NFL > > > > Here's the post that was deleted at the rawfood.com > > forum: > > > > " Nature's First Law: The Raw Food Diet " was blatantly > > plagiarized (we're talking mostly word for word) from > > the writings of an Armenian man living in Iran, > > Arshavir Ter Hovannessian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2005 Report Share Posted February 6, 2005 I think you kind of missed the point or I missed it. I didn't take this mail the way you did. The mail he responded to was probably who you should have directed this at. It was the one making the major accusation. On Feb 5, 2005, at 5:40 AM, rawandlovinit wrote: > > > > > First, it's irresponsible to make an accusation like this in a public > forum unless you can provide evidence that supports your claim, and > from what I can see you're tarnishing the reputation of someone you > don't know on the basis of unsubstantiated gossip you read online. > Second, David Wolfe has done more to promote raw food in the U.S. and > around the world than anyone else, and if this lifestyle enters the > mainstream in the way that vegetarianism has, it will be because of > his hard work and dedication. If it weren't for him you probably > wouldn't even be logged on to this site. > > rawfood , " Graeme " <kimonokraken> wrote: >> >> >> Hello all, >> >> I've heard a lot about this, and it looks fairly overwhelming. >> >> It seems fairly clear-cut doesn't it? Wolfe et al are money- > grabbing, >> unscrupulous plagiarists. Not really that surprising is it? Why >> would raw-foodists be necessarily more ethical and honest than other >> people? Answer: they aren't. And I say that as a raw-foodist. > I've >> met dishonest raw foodists, I've met saintly meat-eaters too. >> >> I abhor the raw-food 'gurus' that charge vast amounts of money for >> their services, and I pity the people who feel they need to hand > over >> all that money. Surely this is not the way to bring raw-foodism to >> the greatest number of people possible. How about a boycott of the >> gurus, and instead rely on each other here, and ourselves? And use >> our own logical faculties and ingenuity for a change? >> >> Another point. There's fairly powerful evidence that plants react > to >> pain and threat just as animals and humans do. If you want more >> details let me know. Consequently there are those of us who need to >> get off certain moral high-horses. Except the fruitarians I guess, >> haha, they don't kill anything! >> >> Love and Light, >> >> Graeme x >> >> --- In Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2005 Report Share Posted February 6, 2005 Hi, My word, how people love their gurus. I have in fact heard this charge of plagiarism from several quarters, and people don't accuse others of literally 'word-for-word' plagiarism for no reason. How much David Wolfe has or hasn't done for raw food has nothing to do with any plagiarism issues, whatsoever. What makes you think it does? Even being a good guy otherwise doesn't stop you being a plagiarist if you've plagiarised something! Also, I had started on the raw food diet before I'd even heard of David Wolfe, thank you very much. Looks like we don't all need the 'raw gurus', huh? I actually first heard of it in a book purchased in a charity store, published two decades ago. If anything David Wolfe would put many people off with his evangelising " raw food is poison " dogma. Sensationalist? Yes. Sensible? No. There was some interesting information in his book with Arlin and Dini, but they would come off sounding like deranged fanatics to most people. I think if raw food takes off, it won't be because of the 'gurus'. It will because independent-minded people desiring health do whatever it takes to obtain it. This may sometimes involve the gurus, sometimes not - what's important is the desire and will to change. I've noticed that some people defend their 'gurus' as though they're GODS or something! This must stop. We are all the source. This is the last I want to say on the matter, so don't be offended if I don't reply. Love and Light, Graeme rawfood , " rawandlovinit " <rawandlovinit> wrote: > > First, it's irresponsible to make an accusation like this in a public > forum unless you can provide evidence that supports your claim, and > from what I can see you're tarnishing the reputation of someone you > don't know on the basis of unsubstantiated gossip you read online. > Second, David Wolfe has done more to promote raw food in the U.S. and > around the world than anyone else, and if this lifestyle enters the > mainstream in the way that vegetarianism has, it will be because of > his hard work and dedication. If it weren't for him you probably > wouldn't even be logged on to this site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 6, 2005 Report Share Posted February 6, 2005 Thank you John, I was just extrapolating logically from identical accusations I'd seen many times , over a period of time, from various sources. And adding a little of my own feelings on 'gurus' and what they charge etc. Since when do we need anyone to teach us how to eat salads? Love and Light, Graeme rawfood , John de la Garza <john@j...> wrote: > I think you kind of missed the point or I missed it. I didn't take > this mail the way you did. The mail he responded to was probably who > you should have directed this at. It was the one making the major > accusation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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