RE: An Interview with Nazariah [s]

[Guest guest]

Hi Fredrik,

 

The vast majority of nutrients we need are water-soluble or water

transportable.

 

The predominant approach to a raw vegan diet is high in nuts, seeds,

avocados, and oils. Most raw fooders pursuing such a diet consume 50-80% of

their calories as fat -- far more than the SAD and even more than many folks

on Atkins and the like. Eventually, these people typically experience

shortfalls/deficiencies in various water-soluble or water-transportable

nutrients. Substituting another high-fat approach doesn't really alter this

situation, though it does change the nutrient mix somewhat.

 

The high water-content/oxygen-content approach, eating predominantly fruits

and greens with occasional avocado and only a minimum of nuts and seeds,

leads to a very different result. If you would like more information, please

let me know!

 

Also, people have different definitions of " health. " If health means

" disease-free, " in the conventional medical sense (nothing to diagnose),

then various approaches to nutrition may work reasonably well, including

some cooked and some raw. But if our definition of health means vital,

vibrant radiant, clear, focused, strong steady energy from wakeup to falling

asleep, razor-sharp memory, vivid imagination, compassion, softness in

personality, etc., then we really need to stick with plants and raw.

 

The same is true for any athlete who wishes to work out 7 days a week, as

opposed 5-6 days for most athletes who require " rest " days. (These are

actually needed to restore glycogen and other reserves which don't run down

in the first place on a well-designed, high-fruit, raw, vegan diet.)

 

Finally, there are just too many fight/flight and related hormones in the

animal foods (though admittedly more in the flesh than in the milk), and the

proteins are much too heavy (casein) and acidic (cysteine/methionine, LOT of

sulfur, for example) to allow our true, good-natured softness to emerge

fully. The China Study (Dr. T. Colin Campbell), the world's largest/longest

nutrition study in humans, clearly links dairy consumption with a long list

of diseases; this is the strongest LONG-TERM link they found.

 

A high-fruit diet is inherently very low in both protein and fat. And any

good general knows that you cannot have a vegetarian/low protein army --

they become " too damned peaceful, " and eventually, they simply won't fight.

 

Elchanan

 

 

 

Fredrik Murman [fpm]

Tuesday, February 22, 2005 10:55 AM

rawfood

[Raw Food] An Interview with Nazariah

Hi everybody:

It's been a while since my last post here. Before I go on, I must

point out that I'm not a vegan. Right now, one could call me 60%

vegetarian, since I've not consumed any flesh foods 19 days out

of 31, during the past month. My principal source of protein has

been homemade yoghurt, and not all my vegetables have been raw.

There was a time several years ago when I considered becoming a

raw vegan. Natural Hygiene attracted me a lot. But I never took

the step. I found articles that scared me away. Many of them were

probably exaggerated, but the hardest ones to ignore have always

been personal experiences. Here's one article I would like you

all to read and give me your opinion about:

An Interview with Nazariah, March 2004

http://chetday.com/rawfooddietnazariah.htm

Here is how it begins:

- What is your background with the raw food diet?

- I'm 46 now and I've been a vegetarian since I was 17. At

that age, I not only became a vegetarian but also a raw foodist. I

included raw dairy into my diet because I had met an elderly

Essene teacher who recommended that. Historically, that used to

be the Essene diet. The Essenes, for the most part, were not

vegans. They were getarians, and many of them were raw foodists,

but they ate fermented dairy products - yogurt and kefir. So

that was my diet was for 7 years. During that time, I did great,

no problems at all. Then, when I had moved to another location,

I became very attracted to the vegan philosophy, because it is a

beautiful philosophy. I then became a raw foodist.

Please read the article carefully and write what you think.

Nazariah seems to be a very peaceful and honest man.

Kindly

Fredrik

_____

[Guest guest]

From the interview with Nazariah:

 

But you don't just go from a meat eating species

to all of a sudden being a vegan species without

a lot of traumatic problems. So I advise a more

intermediate step. Let's first evolve into being

vegetarians for a number of generations, then let's

evolve into veganism and let evolution happen in that way.

 

We are NOT designed as a " meat-eating species!! " And when Jinjee responds

with " This is interesting because it shows that deep down inside he still

believes in the " rightness " of veganism. He believes that this is where we

will " evolve " to eventually, " he steps past this fundamental point.

 

True terrestrial (land-living) large carnivores have ripping teeth, very

strong jaws, secrete very thick saliva loaded with proteolytic enzymes. They

typically have much keener eyesight and/or smell than our species. And their

digestive systems are typically short, in the range of 1.5-2 times torso

length. In other words, what goes in travels a relatively short path. This

is essential for material that rots quickly.

 

In contrast, we have no ripping teeth, relatively weak jaws, and we secrete

a fairly thin saliva that contains amalytic enzymes. Our stomachs secrete a

much milder (less acidic) gastric mixture than does any carnivore's stomach.

Our digestive tract is approximately 12 times the length of our torso, give

or take...it is designed for things that do not rot quickly and that do move

VERY quickly. Only material containing a LOT of water moves that quickly,

and that would be fruits and vegetables. We require fiber to stimulate

proper peristalsis, the gentle process by which our digestive tube moves

food along. And we are designed for a long, slow absorption process from the

digestive system into the rest of the body -- a design perfect for handling

direct sugar absorption.

 

I could cite many more distinctions between carnivore and herbivore anatomy

and physiology, but hopefully these few are sufficient to make the point.

 

We are an herbivore species by Nature's design, and the fact that we've been

living in conflict with that design for a long time does not alter the

design. It would be like saying that 1 million people chanting " the earth is

flat " could somehow make the earth become flat. Or that praying that your

car's engine will burn jet fuel will somehow make it so.

 

Enough for the moment,

Elchanan

 

 

Valerie Mills Daly [valdaly]

Tuesday, February 22, 2005 1:55 PM

rawfood

Re: [Raw Food] An Interview with Nazariah

Here is a link to one response that I could feel at home with, myself:

http://www.thegardendiet.com/naz.html

Jinjee does a good job presenting, in a respectful way, opposing points of

view to some of the issues.

Someone else in this group had access to a response from Rhio, that

addressed both Nazariah's and Jinjee's points, but I don't have the address

for that. I remain pretty firmly in the raw vegan world, at least for now.

Peace,

Valerie

Fredrik Murman <fpm wrote:

Hi everybody:

It's been a while since my last post here. Before I go on, I must

point out that I'm not a vegan. Right now, one could call me 60% vegetarian,

since I've not consumed any flesh foods 19 days out of 31, during the past

month. My principal source of protein has been homemade yoghurt, and not all

my vegetables have been raw.

There was a time several years ago when I considered becoming a raw vegan.

Natural Hygiene attracted me a lot. But I never took the step. I found

articles that scared me away. Many of them were

probably exaggerated, but the hardest ones to ignore have always been

personal experiences. Here's one article I would like you all to read and

give me your opinion about:

An Interview with Nazariah, March 2004

http://chetday.com/rawfooddietnazariah.htm

Here is how it begins:

- What is your background with the raw food diet?

- I'm 46 now and I've been a vegetarian since I was 17. At

that age, I not only became a vegetarian but also a raw foodist. I included

raw dairy into my diet because I had met an elderly Essene teacher who

recommended that. Historically, that used to be the Essene diet. The

Essenes, for the most part, were not vegans. They were getarians, and many

of them were raw foodists, but they ate fermented dairy products - yogurt

and kefir. So that was my diet was for 7 years. During that time, I did

great, no problems at all. Then, when I had moved to another location, I

became very attracted to the vegan philosophy, because it is a

beautiful philosophy. I then became a raw foodist.

Please read the article carefully and write what you think. Nazariah seems

to be a very peaceful and honest man.

Kindly

Fredrik

[Guest guest]

Elchanan,

 

Thanks for addressing the issues head on with facts! I have to admit that I was

freaked out a little by the article. And unsure about how to research the

thuth or falseness of the statements made in the article. I guess that is one

thing that is so difficult for me. There are so many things written on both side

of the issue. I guess all I can do is see how it works for me and base my

actions on the evidence I see in my own life.

 

Ps..I would like to see the Chine Study...do you know how I can find it?

 

tess

 

" INFO @ Vibrant Life " <VLinfo wrote:

 

Hi Fredrik,

 

The vast majority of nutrients we need are water-soluble or water

transportable.

 

The predominant approach to a raw vegan diet is high in nuts, seeds,

avocados, and oils. Most raw fooders pursuing such a diet consume 50-80% of

their calories as fat -- far more than the SAD and even more than many folks

on Atkins and the like. Eventually, these people typically experience

shortfalls/deficiencies in various water-soluble or water-transportable

nutrients. Substituting another high-fat approach doesn't really alter this

situation, though it does change the nutrient mix somewhat.

 

The high water-content/oxygen-content approach, eating predominantly fruits

and greens with occasional avocado and only a minimum of nuts and seeds,

leads to a very different result. If you would like more information, please

let me know!

 

Also, people have different definitions of " health. " If health means

" disease-free, " in the conventional medical sense (nothing to diagnose),

then various approaches to nutrition may work reasonably well, including

some cooked and some raw. But if our definition of health means vital,

vibrant radiant, clear, focused, strong steady energy from wakeup to falling

asleep, razor-sharp memory, vivid imagination, compassion, softness in

personality, etc., then we really need to stick with plants and raw.

 

The same is true for any athlete who wishes to work out 7 days a week, as

opposed 5-6 days for most athletes who require " rest " days. (These are

actually needed to restore glycogen and other reserves which don't run down

in the first place on a well-designed, high-fruit, raw, vegan diet.)

 

Finally, there are just too many fight/flight and related hormones in the

animal foods (though admittedly more in the flesh than in the milk), and the

proteins are much too heavy (casein) and acidic (cysteine/methionine, LOT of

sulfur, for example) to allow our true, good-natured softness to emerge

fully. The China Study (Dr. T. Colin Campbell), the world's largest/longest

nutrition study in humans, clearly links dairy consumption with a long list

of diseases; this is the strongest LONG-TERM link they found.

 

A high-fruit diet is inherently very low in both protein and fat. And any

good general knows that you cannot have a vegetarian/low protein army --

they become " too damned peaceful, " and eventually, they simply won't fight.

 

Elchanan

 

 

 

 

 

 

Take Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi, Tev.

 

I can really appreciate your sentiment. At the same time, I wonder whether

you would be willing to consider the following ...

 

Each of us arrives at the list with a unique background. Each of us learns

in his/her own best ways. Some of us go directly from point a to point b,

others may choose a more roundabout path. We all want to uncover, to

rediscover our innate wisdom and our connection with Nature and with

Divinity/spirit (however named).

 

Consider the example presented just earlier. One woman in this group, a raw

vegan, read the material and tried an egg. She felt awful. Now she KNOWS in

a way that perhaps she did not previously. I do not know her personally, but

I can imagine she is quite grateful for the opportunity to create and

experience her own process of discovery.

 

Also, we humans tend to comprehend things by distinguishing them from other

things. For this, we require contrast. We only see white by virtue of the

contiguous absence of white. So for many people, encountering things other

than raw, vegan may help clarify their understanding of and commitment to

raw, vegan.

 

Please understand, I'm not saying I think you are " right " or " wrong, " I'm

simply inviting you to see through the eyes of others.

 

Best,

Elchanan

 

 

tev treowlufu [coac2002]

Tuesday, February 22, 2005 1:10 PM

rawfood

Re: [Raw Food] An Interview with Nazariah

" This group is here to support people wanting to learn

how to eat a Healthy Raw Food Diet. Just because

something is raw doesn't necessarily mean it is the

best thing for us. This group supports a Vegan Raw

Food Diet. Please don't come here trying to promote

other diets. "

--- Fredrik Murman <fpm wrote:

> Here's one article I

> would like you

> all to read and give me your opinion about:

>

> An Interview with Nazariah, March 2004

> http://chetday.com/rawfooddietnazariah.htm

>

=====

[...there'll be love and laughter,

and peace ever after,

just you wait and see...

---Vera Lynn]

_____

[Guest guest]

Thanks Valerie for remembering to share Doug's links with the group. I eat

as Doug eats, or very nearly so. The approach matches our natural design, it

works!

Elchanan

 

Valerie Mills Daly [valdaly]

Wednesday, February 23, 2005 8:08 AM

rawfood

Re: [Raw Food] An Interview with Nazariah

You are welcome, Fredrik. One other source you might want to look at is Dr.

Doug Graham's site; you can find it at http://www.doctorgraham.cc. His Raw

Foods FAQ page is http://www.foodnsport.com/FAQ.html. He has been completely

raw, vegan, supplement free for more than 20 years, and I find his approach

to be the most simple and complete that I have come across up to this time.

The FAQ page will probably give you the best summary of his approach, so you

might want to take some time to read that over first.

Peace,

Valerie

Fredrik Murman <fpm wrote:

Valerie Mills Daly wrote:

> Here is a link to one response that I could feel at home with,

> myself:

> http://www.thegardendiet.com/naz.html

> Jinjee does a good job presenting, in a respectful way, opposing

> points of view to some of the issues.

Valeria, thank you very much for this link!

Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your kind feedback Tess!

 

The China Study is now available as a published book, by T. Colin Campbell.

For faster, albeit briefer, access, look at

 

http://www.mcspotlight.org/media/reports/campbell_china2.html

http://www.mcspotlight.org/media/reports/campbell_china1.html

http://www.activistcash.com/biography.cfm/bid/1501

 

Elchanan

 

PS Some comments from others about Dr. Campbell's work: (A little long, but

informative)

The China Study describes a monumental survey of diet and death rates from

cancer in more than 2,400 Chinese counties and the equally monumental

efforts to explore its significance and implications for nutrition and

health. Dr. Campbell and his son, Thomas, have written a lively, provocative

and important book that deserves widespread attention.

 

Frank Rhodes, Ph.D., President (1978-1995) Emeritus, Cornell University

 

Colin Campbell's The China Study is an important book, and a highly readable

one. With his son, Tom, Colin studies the relationship between diet and

disease, and his conclusions are startling. The China Study is a story that

needs to be heard.

 

Robert C. Richardson, Ph.D., Nobel Prize Winner,

Professor of Physics and Vice Provost of Research,

Cornell University

 

The China Study is the account of a ground-breaking research study that

provides the answers long sought by physicians, scientists, and

health-conscious readers. Based on painstaking investigations over many

years, it unearths surprising answers to the most important nutritional

questions of our time: What really causes cancer? How can we extend our

lives? What will turn around the obesity epidemic? The China Study quickly

and easily dispenses with fad diets, relying on solid and convincing

evidence. Clearly and beautifully written by one of the world's most

respected nutrition authorities, The China Study represents a major turning

point in our understanding of health.

 

Neal Barnard, M.D., President, Physician's Committee for Responsible

Medicine

 

Everyone in the field of nutrition science stands on the shoulders of T.

Colin Campbell, who is one of the giants in the field. This is one of the

most important books about nutrition ever written -- reading it may save

your life.

 

Dean Ornish, M.D.

Founder & President, Preventive Medicine Research Institute Clinical

Professor of Medicine, University of California, San Francisco

Author, Dr. Dean Ornish's Program for Reversing Heart Disease and Love &

Survival

 

The China Study is the most convincing evidence yet on preventing heart

disease, cancer and other Western diseases by dietary means. It is the book

of choice both for economically developed countries and for countries

undergoing rapid economical transition and lifestyle change.

 

Junshi Chen, M.D., Ph.D., Senior Research

Professor, Institute of Nutrition and Food Safety, Chinese Center for

Disease Control and Prevention

 

All concerned with the obesity epidemic, their own health, and the

staggering environmental and social impacts of the Western diet will find

wise and practical solutions in Dr. Campbell's The China Study.

 

Robert Goodland, Lead Advisor on the Environment, The World Bank Group

(1978-2001)

 

Dr. Campbell's book, The China Study is a moving and insightful history of

the struggle, still ongoing, to understand and explain the vital connection

between our health and what we eat. Dr. Campbell knows this subject from the

inside: he has pioneered the investigation of the diet-cancer link since the

days of the seminal " China Study, " the 1982 NAS report, " Diet, Nutrition,

and Cancer, " and American Institute for Cancer Research's expert panel

report, " Food, Nutrition and the Prevention of Cancer: a Global

Perspective. "

 

Consequently, he is able to illuminate every aspect of this question. Today,

AICR advocates a predominantly plant-based diet for lower cancer risk

because of the great work Dr. Campbell and just a few other visionaries

began 25 years ago.

 

Marilyn Gentry, President, American Institute for Cancer Research

 

The China Study is a well-documented analysis of the fallacies of the modern

diet, lifestyle, and medicine and the quick fix approach that often fails.

The lessons from China provide compelling rationale for a plant-based diet

to promote health and reduce the risk of the diseases of affluence.

 

Sushma Palmer, Ph.D., Former Executive Director, Food and Nutrition Board,

U.S. National Academy of Sciences

 

The China Study is extraordinarily helpful, superbly written, and profoundly

important. Dr. Campbell's work is revolutionary in its implications and

spectacular in its clarity. I learned an immense amount from this brave and

wise book.

 

If you want to eat bacon and eggs for breakfast and then take cholesterol

lowering medication, that's your right. But if you want to truly take charge

of your health, read The China Study and do it soon! If you heed the counsel

of this outstanding guide, your body will thank you every day for the rest

of your life.

 

John Robbins, Author of the best-selling books,

Diet for a New America and The Food Revolution

 

The China Study is a rare treat. Finally, a world-renowned nutritional

scholar has explained the truth about diet and health in a way that everyone

can easily understand--a startling truth that everyone needs to know. In

this superb volume, Dr. Campbell has distilled, with his son Tom, for us the

wisdom of his brilliant career. If you feel any confusion about how to find

the healthiest path for yourself and your family, you will find precious

answers in The China Study. Don't miss it!

 

Douglas J. Lisle, Ph.D. & Alan Goldhamer, D.C., Authors of The Pleasure Trap

 

 

So many diet and health books contain conflicting advice, but most have one

thing in common-an agenda to sell something. Dr. Campbell's only agenda is

truth. As a distinguished professor at Cornell University, Dr. Campbell is

the Einstein of nutrition. The China Study is based on hardcore scientific

research, not the rank speculation of a Zone, Atkins, SugarBusters or any

other current fad. Dr. Campbell lays out his lifetime of research in an

accessible, entertaining way. Read this book and you will know why.

 

Jeff Nelson, President, VegSource.com (most visited food website in the

world)

 

The China Study gives critical, life-saving nutritional information for

every health-seeker in America. But, it is much more; Dr. Campbell's exposé

of the research and medical establishment makes this book a fascinating read

and one that could change the future for all of us. Every health care

provider and researcher in the world must read it.

 

Joel Fuhrman, M.D., Author of the bestselling book,

Eat To Live

 

Tess West [tesser2u]

Wednesday, February 23, 2005 7:22 AM

rawfood

RE: [Raw Food] An Interview with Nazariah

Elchanan,

Thanks for addressing the issues head on with facts! I have to admit that I

was freaked out a little by the article. And unsure about how to

research the thuth or falseness of the statements made in the article. I

guess that is one thing that is so difficult for me. There are so many

things written on both side of the issue. I guess all I can do is see how it

works for me and base my actions on the evidence I see in my own life.

Ps..I would like to see the Chine Study...do you know how I can find it?

tess

" INFO @ Vibrant Life " <VLinfo wrote:

Hi Fredrik,

The vast majority of nutrients we need are water-soluble or water

transportable.

The predominant approach to a raw vegan diet is high in nuts, seeds,

avocados, and oils. Most raw fooders pursuing such a diet consume 50-80% of

their calories as fat -- far more than the SAD and even more than many folks

on Atkins and the like. Eventually, these people typically experience

shortfalls/deficiencies in various water-soluble or water-transportable

nutrients. Substituting another high-fat approach doesn't really alter this

situation, though it does change the nutrient mix somewhat.

The high water-content/oxygen-content approach, eating predominantly fruits

and greens with occasional avocado and only a minimum of nuts and seeds,

leads to a very different result. If you would like more information, please

let me know!

Also, people have different definitions of " health. " If health means

" disease-free, " in the conventional medical sense (nothing to diagnose),

then various approaches to nutrition may work reasonably well, including

some cooked and some raw. But if our definition of health means vital,

vibrant radiant, clear, focused, strong steady energy from wakeup to falling

asleep, razor-sharp memory, vivid imagination, compassion, softness in

personality, etc., then we really need to stick with plants and raw.

The same is true for any athlete who wishes to work out 7 days a week, as

opposed 5-6 days for most athletes who require " rest " days. (These are

actually needed to restore glycogen and other reserves which don't run down

in the first place on a well-designed, high-fruit, raw, vegan diet.)

Finally, there are just too many fight/flight and related hormones in the

animal foods (though admittedly more in the flesh than in the milk), and the

proteins are much too heavy (casein) and acidic (cysteine/methionine, LOT of

sulfur, for example) to allow our true, good-natured softness to emerge

fully. The China Study (Dr. T. Colin Campbell), the world's largest/longest

nutrition study in humans, clearly links dairy consumption with a long list

of diseases; this is the strongest LONG-TERM link they found.

A high-fruit diet is inherently very low in both protein and fat. And any

good general knows that you cannot have a vegetarian/low protein army --

they become " too damned peaceful, " and eventually, they simply won't fight.

Elchanan

Take Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.

[Guest guest]

Hi Tess,

 

I decided to respond separately, from the China Study info, to your comment

 

 

I guess that is one thing that is so difficult

for me. There are so many things written on both

side of the issue. I guess all I can do is see

how it works for me and base my actions on the

evidence I see in my own life.

 

 

To me, what you say is SO important! Very few people really have the

background to understand all this scientific research. For the most part,

people hear or read things, pick the ones that sound good to them, and

repeat them to others. It would require at least SOME understanding of

physics, chemistry, cellular biology, physiology, comparative anatomy,

applied mathematics (prob and stat), human behavior (e.g., emotional

eating), and THEN some comprehension of nutrition would follow from all

this.

 

So while I sometimes offer a bunch of " scientific information, " I encourage

everyone to experience for themselves. The woman who reported reading the

Nazariah interview, then trying the egg, offers us a perfect example. She

did not destroy her integrity through this experiment; in fact, I suspect

she gained clarity and strengthened her connection with herself.

 

This works for many things. For example, there is an ongoing discussion

about salt (sodium chloride) in some circles -- should we eat salt, what

kind of salt, etc. But rather than listen to all that, one could simply stop

eating all forms of salt for 60-90 days (don't worry, you'll be fine!), then

eat some. I PROMISE you and everyone, if you try this, you'll never have to

read a discussion about salt again. Your mouth and the rest of your body

will have spoken decisively!

 

Same for garlic, onion, etc.

 

However, to conduct such an experiential experiment, one would have to give

up eating in restaurants and buying packaged food for the duration of the

experiment, as virtually all of these contain salt, or garlic, or onion, or

sugar, or .... :)

 

Best to all,

Elchanan

 

 

 

Tess West [tesser2u]

Wednesday, February 23, 2005 7:22 AM

rawfood

RE: [Raw Food] An Interview with Nazariah

Elchanan,

Thanks for addressing the issues head on with facts! I have to admit that I

was freaked out a little by the article. And unsure about how to

research the thuth or falseness of the statements made in the article. I

guess that is one thing that is so difficult for me. There are so many

things written on both side of the issue. I guess all I can do is see how it

works for me and base my actions on the evidence I see in my own life.

Ps..I would like to see the Chine Study...do you know how I can find it?

tess

" INFO @ Vibrant Life " <VLinfo wrote:

Hi Fredrik,

The vast majority of nutrients we need are water-soluble or water

transportable.

The predominant approach to a raw vegan diet is high in nuts, seeds,

avocados, and oils. Most raw fooders pursuing such a diet consume 50-80% of

their calories as fat -- far more than the SAD and even more than many folks

on Atkins and the like. Eventually, these people typically experience

shortfalls/deficiencies in various water-soluble or water-transportable

nutrients. Substituting another high-fat approach doesn't really alter this

situation, though it does change the nutrient mix somewhat.

The high water-content/oxygen-content approach, eating predominantly fruits

and greens with occasional avocado and only a minimum of nuts and seeds,

leads to a very different result. If you would like more information, please

let me know!

Also, people have different definitions of " health. " If health means

" disease-free, " in the conventional medical sense (nothing to diagnose),

then various approaches to nutrition may work reasonably well, including

some cooked and some raw. But if our definition of health means vital,

vibrant radiant, clear, focused, strong steady energy from wakeup to falling

asleep, razor-sharp memory, vivid imagination, compassion, softness in

personality, etc., then we really need to stick with plants and raw.

The same is true for any athlete who wishes to work out 7 days a week, as

opposed 5-6 days for most athletes who require " rest " days. (These are

actually needed to restore glycogen and other reserves which don't run down

in the first place on a well-designed, high-fruit, raw, vegan diet.)

Finally, there are just too many fight/flight and related hormones in the

animal foods (though admittedly more in the flesh than in the milk), and the

proteins are much too heavy (casein) and acidic (cysteine/methionine, LOT of

sulfur, for example) to allow our true, good-natured softness to emerge

fully. The China Study (Dr. T. Colin Campbell), the world's largest/longest

nutrition study in humans, clearly links dairy consumption with a long list

of diseases; this is the strongest LONG-TERM link they found.

A high-fruit diet is inherently very low in both protein and fat. And any

good general knows that you cannot have a vegetarian/low protein army --

they become " too damned peaceful, " and eventually, they simply won't fight.

Elchanan

Take Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.

[Guest guest]

It isn't a sentiment Elchanan, it is the group

description.

 

" This group supports a Vegan Raw Food Diet. Please

don't come here trying to promote other diets. "

 

It says what it says. If you and others wish to

discuss other eating styles, go and start a group.

 

I find your psychobabble-new age description of how

people arrive at this " list, " and how people are in

general, condescending and meaningless and untrue.

 

tev

 

 

--- " INFO @ Vibrant Life " <VLinfo

wrote:

 

> Each of us arrives at the list with a unique

> background. Each of us learns

> in his/her own best ways. Some of us go directly

> from point a to point b,

> others may choose a more roundabout path. We all

> want to uncover, to

> rediscover our innate wisdom and our connection with

> Nature and with

> Divinity/spirit (however named).

 

> Consider the example presented just earlier. One

> woman in this group, a raw

> vegan, read the material and tried an egg. She felt

> awful. Now she KNOWS in

> a way that perhaps she did not previously. I do not

> know her personally, but

> I can imagine she is quite grateful for the

> opportunity to create and

> experience her own process of discovery.

>

> Also, we humans tend to comprehend things by

> distinguishing them from other

> things. For this, we require contrast. We only see

> white by virtue of the

> contiguous absence of white. So for many people,

> encountering things other

> than raw, vegan may help clarify their understanding

> of and commitment to

> raw, vegan.

>

> Please understand, I'm not saying I think you are

> " right " or " wrong, " I'm

> simply inviting you to see through the eyes of

> others.

>

> Best,

> Elchanan

 

 

=====

[...there'll be love and laughter,

and peace ever after,

just you wait and see...

---Vera Lynn]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mail - You care about security. So do we.

 

[Guest guest]

*unlike tev i really loved what elchanan had to say and didnt find it at

all meaningless and condesending ..in fact i have found all experiences

as described to be true..i remember when i gave up drinking for 9months

and then got drunk..it was so usful in that it didnt help and this last

experience has got me through many a craving over the years..in the same

way when i have had cooked food and its burnt my mouth or i have had a

bad reaction that has also helped me to be raw...sometimes experiencing

the opposite is very usful.

 

love jood

*

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Tev,

 

First, I don't like the expression " psychobabble-new age description " . I don't

have anything to do with New Age but there are people in this group they do and

I don't see any reason why to offend them.

 

Second, Fredrik himself tells he read this group description at least two times

and he didn't promote here any diet. It is true. He just wanted to know our

opinions.

 

You recommend him other websites but I think he asked in the right place. It's

not very probable he can get some arguments why not to eat the animal products

in the group where the members recommend them.

 

And why to accuse him of fear? Just because he likes to make his own

conclusions? He read Nazariah's opinions as well as Jingee's ones. He considers

various points of view, making his own desicions. He wants to understand, not

just to copy. I find it responsible and great.

 

The same as you don't want to eat meat and diary not because of fear but because

you have your own reasons why not to eat them.

 

Katka

 

 

 

Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:18:11 -0800 (PST)

tev treowlufu <coac2002

RE: An Interview with Nazariah

It isn't a sentiment Elchanan, it is the group

description.

" This group supports a Vegan Raw Food Diet. Please

don't come here trying to promote other diets. "

It says what it says. If you and others wish to

discuss other eating styles, go and start a group.

I find your psychobabble-new age description of how

people arrive at this " list, " and how people are in

general, condescending and meaningless and untrue.

tev

--- " INFO @ Vibrant Life " <VLinfo

wrote:

> Each of us arrives at the list with a unique

> background. Each of us learns

> in his/her own best ways. Some of us go directly

> from point a to point b,

> others may choose a more roundabout path. We all

> want to uncover, to

> rediscover our innate wisdom and our connection with

> Nature and with

> Divinity/spirit (however named).

> Consider the example presented just earlier. One

> woman in this group, a raw

> vegan, read the material and tried an egg. She felt

> awful. Now she KNOWS in

> a way that perhaps she did not previously. I do not

> know her personally, but

> I can imagine she is quite grateful for the

> opportunity to create and

> experience her own process of discovery.

>

> Also, we humans tend to comprehend things by

> distinguishing them from other

> things. For this, we require contrast. We only see

> white by virtue of the

> contiguous absence of white. So for many people,

> encountering things other

> than raw, vegan may help clarify their understanding

> of and commitment to

> raw, vegan.

>

> Please understand, I'm not saying I think you are

> " right " or " wrong, " I'm

> simply inviting you to see through the eyes of

> others.

>

> Best,

> Elchanan

=====

[...there'll be love and laughter,

and peace ever after,

just you wait and see...

---Vera Lynn]

Mail - You care about security. So do we.

______________________________

Visita http://www.tutopia.com y comienza a navegar más rápido en Internet.

Tutopia es Internet para todos.

[Guest guest]

Speaking only for myself, I take Fredrik's explanation of what happened, of

his motivation and wonderful sense of curiosity, all at face value.

 

Elchanan

 

 

Fredrik Murman [fpm]

Thursday, February 24, 2005 2:23 AM

rawfood

Re: [Raw Food] An Interview with Nazariah

Tev Treowlufu wrote:

> Fredrik:

> I am skeptical of your motives. I have seen this

> Nazariah article passed about before--on this and

> other lists.

Tev, I don't know what people you have encountered or been dealing

with, but I am not one of them. Someone linked to the article in

another forum. I read the interview and it seriously aggravated my

view of veganism; but then I woke up and asked myself, what do

vegans have to say about this, and I remembered that I was a

member of this forum. I made an inquiry, which resulted in a

positive change in my position.

> If you want to be convinced of raw veganism, then just

> do it.

I don't know about you Tev, but I have always been an extremely

careful individual in many areas of life. I have seldom jumped

into things without being sure of the consequences. There seems

to be thousands of diets out there, many of them promising to

be the one and only, and demonizing other diets. One does not

have to try a diet to be convinced that it works for at least

some people. After reading about Jinjee, her husband Storm and

their family, I am convinced. That is a great step forward for

me. My new viewpoint is that some people do fine on a raw vegan

diet. I even showed the Garden Diet website for a friend of mine

and I will guide other people to that website who categorically

repudiate raw veganism. I am not convinced however that raw

vegan diet is the solution to everybody, because I know others

who seem to do equally fine on other regimens. I will soon look

into Dr Doug Graham's website as well, as Valeria suggested.

> If you want to be a rawfoodist who eats raw animal foods,

> there are other groups to participate in.

During a short period, years ago, I tried that, but was not

comfortable with it.

> This fear mongering represented by your sort of post

> is simply repetitious. I don't think I misunderstood

> you.

You seem to think I came here to cause havoc, which is not

correct. When I sent my post, I knew people would react and

give me answers. That was my sole intention - to get new

viewpoints.

> I think you are too afraid to live as a raw vegan. That's

> fine. May I suggest you join a rawfood beginners or a

> similar group?

I see no reason to shift my diet, because it seems I feel fine on

it. What I found reason to do a couple of days ago, was to question

my view of veganism as a dietary practice that is deemed to fail.

I am now convinced that it can work for some people.

> I will continue to post that particular paragraph of

> the group description to people like you.

And it seems I have to remind you of another paragraph in the

description of this forum:

" This is a friendly group of people. We welcome debate, but do

it without name calling and anger in the posts. Negative posts

and posters will be banned. "

Kindly

Fredrik

[Guest guest]

Certainly I gave " my opinion " , so here's

more opinions:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/4283585.stm

 

Of course, opinion is opinion. No one can prove the

efficacy of raw veganism to another. It has to be a

personal choice, commitment, and experience, in order

for it to become " proof. "

 

These issues have issued back and forth and again. As

Elchie pointed out, this won't be the last time.

 

tev

 

--- gagan <gagan wrote:

 

> Second, Fredrik himself tells he read this group

> description at least two times and he didn't promote

> here any diet. It is true. He just wanted to know

> our opinions.

 

>

> Katka

>

 

 

=====

[...there'll be love and laughter,

and peace ever after,

just you wait and see...

---Vera Lynn]

 

 

 

 

 

Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.

http://info.mail./mail_250

[Guest guest]

Link to the complete article on this study, as published by the BBC:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4282257.stm

 

The link Tev provided points to a summary with readers' comments, many of

which may be of interest, of course.

 

Elchanan

 

 

tev treowlufu [coac2002]

Thursday, February 24, 2005 10:53 AM

rawfood

Re: [Raw Food] RE: An Interview with Nazariah

Certainly I gave " my opinion " , so here's

more opinions:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/4283585.stm

Of course, opinion is opinion. No one can prove the

efficacy of raw veganism to another. It has to be a

personal choice, commitment, and experience, in order

for it to become " proof. "

These issues have issued back and forth and again. As

Elchie pointed out, this won't be the last time.

tev

--- gagan <gagan wrote:

> Second, Fredrik himself tells he read this group

> description at least two times and he didn't promote

> here any diet. It is true. He just wanted to know

> our opinions.

>

> Katka

>

=====

[...there'll be love and laughter,

and peace ever after,

just you wait and see...

---Vera Lynn]

Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.

http://info.mail./mail_250

[Guest guest]

-

Jood

 

 

[snip]. . it was so usful in that it didnt help and this last

experience has got me through many a craving over the years..in the same

way when i have had cooked food and its burnt my mouth or i have had a

bad reaction that has also helped me to be raw...sometimes experiencing

the opposite is very usful.

 

Along similar lines, something interesting I've been experiencing recently. . .

This past week, I have (unfortunately) been completely off raw foods. It

started badly last Friday, and just kinda took on a life of it's own. But, I

have noticed in the past two or three days that the effect of the cooked food

has steadily gotten *worse.* Last Friday, after eating cooked for the first

time in a few weeks, I thought I was doing okay. Today I feel like CRAP!!!! No

energy, lousy mood, can't sleep right, or sleeping for way too long. Headaches.

It's all coming back! Definitely useful in reminding me how beneficial a raw

diet is for overall health!

 

Carolyn

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

yea, I remember burning my mouth on pizza and things like that, glad

I don't do that anymore.

 

rawfood , Jood <jood@s...> wrote:

> in the same

> way when i have had cooked food and its burnt my mouth or i have

had a

> bad reaction that has also helped me to be raw...sometimes

experiencing

> the opposite is very usful.

>

> love jood

[Guest guest]

It's alright, we're still here for you. The Urantia Book, P.1458 -

§7 The possibility of evil is necessary to moral choosing, but not

the actuality thereof. A shadow is only relatively real. Actual evil

is not necessary as a personal experience. Potential evil acts

equally well as a decision stimulus in the realms of moral progress

on the lower levels of spiritual development. Evil becomes a reality

of personal experience only when a moral mind makes evil its choice.

 

In other words, for some, eating nonraw is evil and is a choice that

doesn't HAVE to be made.

 

As an example, in referring to Jesus, because he never chose evil,

P.1425 - §3 From a material point of view, he might appear to have

escaped living through both social extremes of human existence, but

intellectually he became wholly familiar with the entire and complete

experience of humankind.

 

Incorrect choices do not necessarily have to be made.

 

Rich

 

rawfood , " Siviax3 " <siviax3@c...> wrote:

> Along similar lines, something interesting I've been experiencing

recently. . . This past week, I have (unfortunately) been completely

off raw foods. It started badly last Friday, and just kinda took on

a life of it's own. But, I have noticed in the past two or three

days that the effect of the cooked food has steadily gotten *worse.*

Last Friday, after eating cooked for the first time in a few weeks, I

thought I was doing okay. Today I feel like CRAP!!!! No energy,

lousy mood, can't sleep right, or sleeping for way too long.

Headaches. It's all coming back! Definitely useful in reminding me

how beneficial a raw diet is for overall health!

>

> Carolyn

[Guest guest]

Great observations! The effects of dietary self-abuse are progressive in

nature. As one's vitality declines, one's symptoms rise.

Elchanan

 

 

Siviax3 [siviax3]

Thursday, February 24, 2005 6:20 PM

rawfood

Re: [Raw Food] An Interview with Nazariah

-

Jood

[snip]. . it was so usful in that it didnt help and this last

experience has got me through many a craving over the years..in the same

way when i have had cooked food and its burnt my mouth or i have had a

bad reaction that has also helped me to be raw...sometimes experiencing

the opposite is very usful.

Along similar lines, something interesting I've been experiencing recently.

.. . This past week, I have (unfortunately) been completely off raw foods.

It started badly last Friday, and just kinda took on a life of it's own.

But, I have noticed in the past two or three days that the effect of the

cooked food has steadily gotten *worse.* Last Friday, after eating cooked

for the first time in a few weeks, I thought I was doing okay. Today I feel

like CRAP!!!! No energy, lousy mood, can't sleep right, or sleeping for way

too long. Headaches. It's all coming back! Definitely useful in reminding

me how beneficial a raw diet is for overall health!

Carolyn