Guest guest Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 Thanks, Steven. Much of the material you provide is fine, some is outdated and/or incomplete. The discussion about pernicious anemia is overblown and results largely from medical misdirection, mistaking symptoms for causes, that sort of thing. and the connection actually established by clinical research is quite weak at best. Anemia is largely caused by other factors, particularly excessive menstrual discharge in women, This, in turn is caused by a combination of poor diet, stress, and the gargantuan shift in hormones in the diet due to use of pesticides, particularly those with estrogen-mimicking side effects. Women used to begin menstruating in their mid-teens; now many American girls begin before age 10. The effects later in life are just beginning to be identified but appear to be horrendous. The effects of pesticides are actually far more serious than most people realize. Pesticides in use today are more than 3,000 times stronger than those first put into service back in 1946-1947. In fact, inability to continue this trend (making ever-stronger pesticides) is the primary commercial motivation behind the big genetic engineering push. The first goal has been to create bug-resistant and even pesticide-resistant plants. Pesticides contribute directly to B-12 depletion by annihilating the bacteria IN THE SOIL that produce the B-12. This has been demonstrated now on more than one occasion, particularly by a researcher in France. Further, rising pesticide use is the most highly correlated factor with increasing male impotency in the U.S. This has been true in analysis of date from EVERY year since the first widespread use of pesticides in 1947. In fact, if we continue, some scientists believe we have a potentially extinction-level situation. Finally, returning to my recommendation, I merely suggested getting good data on the state of B-12 in one's body before taking any supplements. If we consume more of something than we need, we create a situation where our body must expend valuable resources to eliminate that excess and/or store the material for later elimination. This seems prudent to me. Best, and thanks again for bringing all this great information to light. Elchanan Steven [rawfasting] Wednesday, March 09, 2005 8:48 PM rawfood RE: [Raw Food] Supplements, B-12 Elchanan... You may want to consider this in your B12 recommendations! Best to you! Steven _______________ Vitamin B12 / Cyanocobalamin (Page 1) Excerpt from and my appreciation to: The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001. http://www.bartleby.com/65/vi/vitamin.html vitamin: A group of organic substances that are required in the diet of humans and animals for normal growth, maintenance of life, and normal reproduction... If viewed at above web-page linked above, scroll down to section #16 to see Vitamin B12 Vitamin B12 The molecular structure of vitamin B12 vitamin. B12 (cobalamin), the most complex of all known vitamins, was announced in 1955 by several scientists, including British biochemists A. R. Todd and Dorothy Hodgkin. In 1973 the vitamin was reported to have been synthesized by organic chemists. Vitamin B12 and closely related cobalamins are necessary for folic acid to fulfill its role; both are involved in the synthesis of proteins. American physicians G. R. Minot and W. P. Murphy in 1926 fed large amounts of liver to patients with pernicious anemia and cured them; the curative substance in this case was probably vitamin B12. However, pernicious anemia in humans is caused not by a vitamin B12 deficiency in the diet but rather the absence of a substance called the intrinsic factor, ordinarily secreted by the stomach and responsible for facilitating the absorption of B12 from the intestine. When a person's body cannot produce the intrinsic factor, the standard treatment today is to inject vitamin B12 directly into the bloodstream. Minot and Murphy's therapy worked because the liver they fed their patients contained such large quantities of B12 that sufficient amounts of the vitamin were absorbed without the assistance of the intrinsic factor. Inadequate absorption of B12 causes pernicious anemia, nervous system degeneration, and amenorrhea. The only site of cobalamin synthesis in nature appears to be in microorganisms*; neither animals nor higher plants are capable of making these vitamin B12 derivatives. Nevertheless, such animal tissues as the liver, kidney, and heart of ruminants contain relatively large quantities of vitamin B12; the vitamin stored in these organs was originally produced by the (Cyano-) bacteria in the ruminant gut. Bivalves (clams or oysters), which siphon microorganisms* from the sea, are also good sources. Plants, on the other hand, are poor sources of (concentrated)** vitamin B12. The recommended daily dietary allowance for adults is 3 (? see all below) micrograms. Inoculations destroy the Stomach and GI Track and cause Intrisic factor. My notes and added information for above: microorganisms* * Cyanocobalamin - Vitamin B12 producing bacteria are in the Cyanobacterium (algae, moses) family. This class of microorganisms are bacteria that generally require and live in the sunlight and/or oxygenated environment of the plant surfaces, roots, upper soils and in the waters (near surface). They do not survive in the black dark anaerobic environment of interior animal tissues -- though their exo- and endo-compounds (metabolic excretions), including the vitamin B12 compound group, do and is accumulated and concentrated in the herbivorous (plant material consuming) animal (in fecal material, intestines, hence delivered into all body tissues, blood, muscles, entrails, esp. liver and kidneys) and is also expressed (to manage internal tissue levels) through and in body fluids (milk, mucus, urine) or ova (eggs). There is some presumptions of data that pro ports they (Cyanocobalamin bacteria) have some survival and production activity in the (dissolved oxygen and plant nutrient available) gut (primarily gullet and lower intestine) of herbivores / ruminants (e.g. cow, goat, horse, etc.) animals. But it is well understood that the critically important source of B12 in livestock (gen. ruminant) production is in your (unwashed, untreated) silage (corn, grains, beet pulp, ferments) along with alfalfa and hay, wheat grass, barley grass, where these plant loving cyano-bacteria flourish, then enter into the consuming animal! (concentrated**) -- my insertion to the Columbia Encyclopedia's text, 2nd to last line above. God and nature has made no mistakes in providing sufficient Vitamin B12 to billions of herbivorous animals over millions of millennia - including the vegetarian primates (our biologically nearest creational equivalents) and man! -- if he (man) makes the right dietary choices and nourishes himself the way he was originally designed! -- that is: in and from the garden! -- the perfect home of pure, uncontaminated, light, oxygen and vegetation loving Cyanocobalamin in correct bounty, in low concentrations, but sufficient for our needs!-- Not extorted from defiled, destroyed, killed, disease hosting, disease transmitting and B12 hyper-concentrating animals -- especially carnivorous animals (as poultry, pork, fish, etc.) which accumulate and concentrate even more B12 in their tissue, fluids and ova at levels above and higher than the herbivorous animals and/or the insects which they consume. Hence carnivores (including man when he chooses to be such) do ultra-concentrate B12 in their tissues! Hence in carnivorous man, a falsely high mean standard of B12 levels is accumulated in phlebotomy data and is accepted as the human norm! -- Not good or honest science!!! And that false high standard precipitates wrong diagnosis! that is, lower test values of accumulated serum*** B12 levels -- which are naturally less in non-carnivorous humans and their dependent nursing infants! They then are endangered with the unnecessary administrations of (the sewage and/or animal harvested and formulated) B12 injections and/or tablets, with their plethora of contraindications (ill side affects) possible in many recipient patients or wrongly treated victims! *** serum (blood stream) levels of B12 is not always a good indication of true internal, intra-/inter-cellular, metabolic, B12 functional levels. It is also (now) known that the cells are very conservative with B12; keeping appropriate stores of it within the cells themselves, recycling it within the intra-cellular (inside) chemistry and allowing only what is necessary in inter-cellular (between cells) chemistry to be exported, hence not requiring (as was previously presumed) high levels of B12 to be carried in blood flow to replenish it. -- tlr 7/3/03 Standard medicine has seriously erred in violation of honored Koch postulates and true scientific method, by producing unnatural high average blood level standards for B12, and assuming them as the correct human mean -- based upon hematological data accumulated and calculated in the cross-section of primarily heavily carnivorous USA/Industrial world humans! Not a true or honest measure for serum B12 levels for all of humanity, nor for creation's biologically intended, apparent and correct human nutrition, chemistry and physiology! The original concern over Vitamin B12 deficiency (based on research started before three quarters of a century ago and completed over a half century ago) was a perceived relationship in poor health conditions called " pernicious anima " (and other closely related neurological and physiological malfunctions). It now has been established that the true cause of this group of maladies is a failure in the bodies own ability to produce its own correct " intrinsic factor " , a compound associated with B12's intra/intercellular transport and use -- which is ill-formed in a hydrochloric acid and bile abused (a condition specifically triggered by the corrosive digestion required for complex, high molecular weight, dense animal proteins and fats within a) malnourished, malfunctioning, or chemically damaged (or rarely, a genetically flawed) intestinal tract -- rather than the old belief that the cause was (as presumed) a Vitamin B12 intake or (a test determined*) serum level deficiency! -- This error in perception, diagnoses and treatment does persist, even to date among too many non-current or incompletely educated health practitioners, their older peers, administrations and dependent government health and welfare agencies! -- tlr 7/2/03 *Remember, these test protocols and standards were determined over a half century year ago, and also were based on generally highly carnivorous, western human models. ---------- ---- Personal references: Veterinary & Human Biology & Pathology education and reference books / personal Human, Animal, Livestock and Marine (algae) research and experience -- and required knowledge for good livestock production and profit -- in my past. I will try to improve upon and expand this page later as my resources/time allow. In the meantime, you may see a reference to intestinal (microvilli) repair at LDSVeg.org/Raw.htm#microvilli, and other intestine and whole body healing and nutritional information on LifeSave.org, VeganCowboy.org, WaterAndLife.org and our other subject specific sites (listed on Lifesave.org and VeganCowboy.org) TLR. 7/1/03 Appreciation to my wife and family: Constructing this page has taken more than three full days away from family and real income producing work (which also goes to cover this labors total costs including the necessary ongoing internet debts). This required the confirming in all my old references, personal texts and notes from forty years education and experience back; then the time and concentration to ponder, recheck my supporting data, organize, write, edit, rewrite re-edit -- and I am probably still not finished with refining it for you! My hope is you will be benefited, have correct knowledge, prove it yourself as is possible, and that you will appreciate this labor and sacrifice (especially that which affects and leaves my family short) for you, the reader! -- tlr INFO @ Vibrant Life [VLinfo] Wednesday, March 09, 2005 11:33 PM rawfood RE: [Raw Food] Supplements, B-12 Hi Susan, Every question is an honorable and noble inquiry in pursuit of growth and self-improvement. Repetition affords us the opportunity to reinforce what we have already leaned and to offer variances in perspective. In general, use of supplements is a tacit admission that one's current diet (or an author's recommended diet) does not work. Nutrients in plants come by the thousands and tens of thousands. They are balanced in proportion to one another in perfect combinations we cannot even begin to notice, much less unravel. In contrast, nutrients in boxes and bottles come a few at a time, in whatever combination is convenient and cost-effective for the manufacturer. So from my perspective, it's food 10, supplements, zero. B-12 is the one exception cited even by some people who generally eschew supplements. B-12 is the largest and most complex of the vitamins, and to my knowledge " modern science " can only grow it, not synthesize it, at least as of the present. B-12 is bacteria poop and occurs quite naturally wherever certain bacteria are present. As a result, manufacture of certain antibiotics (penicillin, streptomycin) yields a supply of B-12. ONLY TAKE A B-12 SUPPLEMENT IF YOU REALLY NEED IT. YOUR FRIENDS AND MOST OF YOUR TEACHERS HAVE NO EARTHLY IDEA WHETHER THIS IS SO, unless one of them actually happens to have access to blood testing apparatus and knows what to do with the results. If you do choose to take a B-12 supplement, choose a sublingual variety (liquid, under the tongue) for fastest and least disruptive absorption. And you only need a little -- current estimates are that we need about 1 microgram (one millionth of a gram) per day. And our system can store surplus B-12 for future use, unlike some vitamins. However, there another and MUCH better solution than any form of supplements. Search out farmers who compost extensively. There soil, and the foods grown in that soil, will contain B-12, at least after they've done it for a couple of years. This occurs because composting nurtures the biological wealth -- the life, the living organisms -- in the soil. And it is this biological life that actually produces many of the nutrients we need. This is one (of several) reasons why use of pesticides is SO damaging to the food supply. Best to all, Elchanan Susan [sdmendell] Wednesday, March 09, 2005 6:53 AM rawfood [Raw Food] Supplements I apologize if this topic has already been discussed...I am new to this group and to living foods in general. I am just wondering how folks feel about supplements. After being a vegetarian for years, I got tired of people telling me that I had to worry about not getting enough B12 in my diet. So, I looked into buying a B12 supplement and discovered that they were made out of seashells. And I am sure that they weren't just seashells lying around the beach. Creatures were most likely killed to get those shells. I heard that you could get synthisized B12 somehwere, but how good could that be? Anyway, any opinions will be appreciated. Susan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 I was interested to read this about anemia. A friend of mine was just diagnosed with " chronic anemia " . It is very serious. They put him in hospital and are giving him transfusions. Since he is male, are you able to tell me what possible causes there are for something like this. So far they are saying it could be bone marrow problems or a parasite. Thankyou, Lane Thanks, Steven. <BR> <BR> Much of the material you provide is fine, some is outdated and/or<BR> incomplete. The discussion about pernicious anemia is overblown and results<BR> largely from medical misdirection, mistaking symptoms for causes, that sort<BR> of thing. and the connection actually established by clinical research is<BR> quite weak at best. Anemia is largely caused by other factors, particularly<BR> excessive menstrual discharge in women, This, in turn is caused by a<BR> combination of poor diet, stress, and the gargantuan shift in hormones in<BR> the diet due to use of pesticides, particularly those with<BR> estrogen-mimicking side effects. Women used to begin menstruating in their<BR> mid-teens; now many American girls begin before age 10. The effects later in<BR> life are just beginning to be identified but appear to be horrendous. <BR> <BR> The effects of pesticides are actually far more serious than most people<BR> realize. Pesticides in use today are more than 3,000 times stronger than<BR> those first put into service back in 1946-1947. In fact, inability to<BR> continue this trend (making ever-stronger pesticides) is the primary<BR> commercial motivation behind the big genetic engineering push. The first<BR> goal has been to create bug-resistant and even pesticide-resistant plants.<BR> <BR> Pesticides contribute directly to B-12 depletion by annihilating the<BR> bacteria IN THE SOIL that produce the B-12. This has been demonstrated now<BR> on more than one occasion, particularly by a researcher in France. <BR> <BR> Further, rising pesticide use is the most highly correlated factor with<BR> increasing male impotency in the U.S. This has been true in analysis of date<BR> from EVERY year since the first widespread use of pesticides in 1947. In<BR> fact, if we continue, some scientists believe we have a potentially<BR> extinction-level situation. <BR> <BR> Finally, returning to my recommendation, I merely suggested getting good<BR> data on the state of B-12 in one's body before taking any supplements. If we<BR> consume more of something than we need, we create a situation where our body<BR> must expend valuable resources to eliminate that excess and/or store the<BR> material for later elimination.<BR> <BR> This seems prudent to me.<BR> <BR> Best, and thanks again for bringing all this great information to light.<BR> Elchanan<BR> <BR> <BR> Steven [rawfasting] <BR> Wednesday, March 09, 2005 8:48 PM<BR> rawfood <BR> RE: [Raw Food] Supplements, B-12<BR> <BR> <BR> Elchanan...<BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> You may want to consider this in your B12 recommendations!<BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> Best to you!<BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> Steven<BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> _______________<BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> Vitamin B12 / Cyanocobalamin (Page 1) <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> Excerpt from and my appreciation to: <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <a href= " http://www.bartleby.com/65/vi/vitamin.html " >http://www.bartleby.com/6 5/vi/vitamin.html</a> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> vitamin: <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> A group of organic substances that are required in the diet of humans and<BR> animals for normal growth, maintenance of life, and normal reproduction... <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> If viewed at above web-page linked above, scroll down to section #16 to see<BR> Vitamin B12 <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> Vitamin B12 <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> The molecular structure of vitamin B12 vitamin. B12 (cobalamin), the most<BR> complex of all known vitamins, was announced in 1955 by several scientists,<BR> including British biochemists A. R. Todd and Dorothy Hodgkin. In 1973 the<BR> vitamin was reported to have been synthesized by organic chemists. Vitamin<BR> B12 and closely related cobalamins are necessary for folic acid to fulfill<BR> its role; both are involved in the synthesis of proteins. American<BR> physicians G. R. Minot and W. P. Murphy in 1926 fed large amounts of liver<BR> to patients with pernicious anemia and cured them; the curative substance in<BR> this case was probably vitamin B12. However, pernicious anemia in humans is<BR> caused not by a vitamin B12 deficiency in the diet but rather the absence of<BR> a substance called the intrinsic factor, ordinarily secreted by the stomach<BR> and responsible for facilitating the absorption of B12 from the intestine.<BR> When a person's body cannot produce the intrinsic factor, the standard<BR> treatment today is to inject vitamin B12 directly into the bloodstream.<BR> Minot and Murphy's therapy worked because the liver they fed their patients<BR> contained such large quantities of B12 that sufficient amounts of the<BR> vitamin were absorbed without the assistance of the intrinsic factor.<BR> Inadequate absorption of B12 causes pernicious anemia, nervous system<BR> degeneration, and amenorrhea. The only site of cobalamin synthesis in nature<BR> appears to be in microorganisms*; neither animals nor higher plants are<BR> capable of making these vitamin B12 derivatives. Nevertheless, such animal<BR> tissues as the liver, kidney, and heart of ruminants contain relatively<BR> large quantities of vitamin B12; the vitamin stored in these organs was<BR> originally produced by the (Cyano-) bacteria in the ruminant gut. Bivalves<BR> (clams or oysters), which siphon microorganisms* from the sea, are also good<BR> sources. Plants, on the other hand, are poor sources of (concentrated)**<BR> vitamin B12. The recommended daily dietary allowance for adults is 3 (? see<BR> all below) micrograms. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> Inoculations destroy the Stomach and GI Track and cause Intrisic factor.<BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> My notes and added information for above: <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> microorganisms* <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> * Cyanocobalamin - Vitamin B12 producing bacteria are in the Cyanobacterium<BR> (algae, moses) family. This class of microorganisms are bacteria that<BR> generally require and live in the sunlight and/or oxygenated environment of<BR> the plant surfaces, roots, upper soils and in the waters (near surface).<BR> They do not survive in the black dark anaerobic environment of interior<BR> animal tissues -- though their exo- and endo-compounds (metabolic<BR> excretions), including the vitamin B12 compound group, do and is accumulated<BR> and concentrated in the herbivorous (plant material consuming) animal (in<BR> fecal material, intestines, hence delivered into all body tissues, blood,<BR> muscles, entrails, esp. liver and kidneys) and is also expressed (to manage<BR> internal tissue levels) through and in body fluids (milk, mucus, urine) or<BR> ova (eggs). There is some presumptions of data that pro ports they<BR> (Cyanocobalamin bacteria) have some survival and production activity in the<BR> (dissolved oxygen and plant nutrient available) gut (primarily gullet and<BR> lower intestine) of herbivores / ruminants (e.g. cow, goat, horse, etc.)<BR> animals. But it is well understood that the critically important source of<BR> B12 in livestock (gen. ruminant) production is in your (unwashed, untreated)<BR> silage (corn, grains, beet pulp, ferments) along with alfalfa and hay, wheat<BR> grass, barley grass, where these plant loving cyano-bacteria flourish, then<BR> enter into the consuming animal! <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> (concentrated**) -- my insertion to the Columbia Encyclopedia's text, 2nd to<BR> last line above. God and nature has made no mistakes in providing sufficient<BR> Vitamin B12 to billions of herbivorous animals over millions of millennia -<BR> including the vegetarian primates (our biologically nearest creational<BR> equivalents) and man! -- if he (man) makes the right dietary choices and<BR> nourishes himself the way he was originally designed! -- that is: in and<BR> from the garden! -- the perfect home of pure, uncontaminated, light, oxygen<BR> and vegetation loving Cyanocobalamin in correct bounty, in low<BR> concentrations, but sufficient for our needs!-- Not extorted from defiled,<BR> destroyed, killed, disease hosting, disease transmitting and B12<BR> hyper-concentrating animals -- especially carnivorous animals (as poultry,<BR> pork, fish, etc.) which accumulate and concentrate even more B12 in their<BR> tissue, fluids and ova at levels above and higher than the herbivorous<BR> animals and/or the insects which they consume. Hence carnivores (including<BR> man when he chooses to be such) do ultra-concentrate B12 in their tissues!<BR> Hence in carnivorous man, a falsely high mean standard of B12 levels is<BR> accumulated in phlebotomy data and is accepted as the human norm! -- Not<BR> good or honest science!!! And that false high standard precipitates wrong<BR> diagnosis! that is, lower test values of accumulated serum*** B12 levels --<BR> which are naturally less in non-carnivorous humans and their dependent<BR> nursing infants! They then are endangered with the unnecessary<BR> administrations of (the sewage and/or animal harvested and formulated) B12<BR> injections and/or tablets, with their plethora of contraindications (ill<BR> side affects) possible in many recipient patients or wrongly treated<BR> victims! <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> *** serum (blood stream) levels of B12 is not always a good indication of<BR> true internal, intra-/inter-cellular, metabolic, B12 functional levels. It<BR> is also (now) known that the cells are very conservative with B12; keeping<BR> appropriate stores of it within the cells themselves, recycling it within<BR> the intra-cellular (inside) chemistry and allowing only what is necessary in<BR> inter-cellular (between cells) chemistry to be exported, hence not requiring<BR> (as was previously presumed) high levels of B12 to be carried in blood flow<BR> to replenish it. -- tlr 7/3/03 <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> Standard medicine has seriously erred in violation of honored Koch<BR> postulates and true scientific method, by producing unnatural high average<BR> blood level standards for B12, and assuming them as the correct human mean<BR> -- based upon hematological data accumulated and calculated in the<BR> cross-section of primarily heavily carnivorous USA/Industrial world humans!<BR> Not a true or honest measure for serum B12 levels for all of humanity, nor<BR> for creation's biologically intended, apparent and correct human nutrition,<BR> chemistry and physiology! <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> The original concern over Vitamin B12 deficiency (based on research started<BR> before three quarters of a century ago and completed over a half century<BR> ago) was a perceived relationship in poor health conditions called<BR> " pernicious anima " (and other closely related neurological and physiological<BR> malfunctions). It now has been established that the true cause of this group<BR> of maladies is a failure in the bodies own ability to produce its own<BR> correct " intrinsic factor " , a compound associated with B12's<BR> intra/intercellular transport and use -- which is ill-formed in a<BR> hydrochloric acid and bile abused (a condition specifically triggered by the<BR> corrosive digestion required for complex, high molecular weight, dense<BR> animal proteins and fats within a) malnourished, malfunctioning, or<BR> chemically damaged (or rarely, a genetically flawed) intestinal tract --<BR> rather than the old belief that the cause was (as presumed) a Vitamin B12<BR> intake or (a test determined*) serum level deficiency! <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> -- This error in perception, diagnoses and treatment does persist, even to<BR> date among too many non-current or incompletely educated health<BR> practitioners, their older peers, administrations and dependent government<BR> health and welfare agencies! -- tlr 7/2/03 <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> *Remember, these test protocols and standards were determined over a half<BR> century year ago, and also were based on generally highly carnivorous,<BR> western human models. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> --------- -<BR> ----<BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> Personal references: Veterinary & Human Biology & Pathology education and<BR> reference books / personal Human, Animal, Livestock and Marine (algae)<BR> research and experience -- and required knowledge for good livestock<BR> production and profit -- in my past. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> I will try to improve upon and expand this page later as my resources/time<BR> allow. In the meantime, you may see a reference to intestinal (microvilli)<BR> repair at LDSVeg.org/Raw.htm#microvilli, and other intestine and whole body<BR> healing and nutritional information on LifeSave.org, VeganCowboy.org,<BR> WaterAndLife.org and our other subject specific sites (listed on<BR> Lifesave.org and VeganCowboy.org) <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> TLR. 7/1/03 <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> Appreciation to my wife and family: <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> Constructing this page has taken more than three full days away from family<BR> and real income producing work (which also goes to cover this labors total<BR> costs including the necessary ongoing internet debts). This required the<BR> confirming in all my old references, personal texts and notes from forty<BR> years education and experience back; then the time and concentration to<BR> ponder, recheck my supporting data, organize, write, edit, rewrite re-edit<BR> -- and I am probably still not finished with refining it for you! My hope<BR> is you will be benefited, have correct knowledge, prove it yourself as is<BR> possible, and that you will appreciate this labor and sacrifice (especially<BR> that which affects and leaves my family short) for you, the reader! -- tlr <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> INFO @ Vibrant Life [VLinfo] <BR> Wednesday, March 09, 2005 11:33 PM<BR> rawfood <BR> RE: [Raw Food] Supplements, B-12 <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> Hi Susan, <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> Every question is an honorable and noble inquiry in pursuit of growth and<BR> <BR> self-improvement. Repetition affords us the opportunity to reinforce what we<BR> <BR> have already leaned and to offer variances in perspective. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> In general, use of supplements is a tacit admission that one's current diet<BR> <BR> (or an author's recommended diet) does not work. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> Nutrients in plants come by the thousands and tens of thousands. They are<BR> <BR> balanced in proportion to one another in perfect combinations we cannot even<BR> <BR> begin to notice, much less unravel.<BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> In contrast, nutrients in boxes and bottles come a few at a time, in<BR> <BR> whatever combination is convenient and cost-effective for the manufacturer.<BR> <BR> So from my perspective, it's food 10, supplements, zero. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> B-12 is the one exception cited even by some people who generally eschew<BR> <BR> supplements. B-12 is the largest and most complex of the vitamins, and to my<BR> <BR> knowledge " modern science " can only grow it, not synthesize it, at least as<BR> <BR> of the present. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> B-12 is bacteria poop and occurs quite naturally wherever certain bacteria<BR> <BR> are present. As a result, manufacture of certain antibiotics (penicillin,<BR> <BR> streptomycin) yields a supply of B-12. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> ONLY TAKE A B-12 SUPPLEMENT IF YOU REALLY NEED IT. YOUR FRIENDS AND MOST OF<BR> <BR> YOUR TEACHERS HAVE NO EARTHLY IDEA WHETHER THIS IS SO, unless one of them<BR> <BR> actually happens to have access to blood testing apparatus and knows what to<BR> <BR> do with the results. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> If you do choose to take a B-12 supplement, choose a sublingual variety<BR> <BR> (liquid, under the tongue) for fastest and least disruptive absorption. And<BR> <BR> you only need a little -- current estimates are that we need about 1<BR> <BR> microgram (one millionth of a gram) per day. And our system can store<BR> <BR> surplus B-12 for future use, unlike some vitamins.<BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> However, there another and MUCH better solution than any form of<BR> <BR> supplements. Search out farmers who compost extensively. There soil, and the<BR> <BR> foods grown in that soil, will contain B-12, at least after they've done it<BR> <BR> for a couple of years. This occurs because composting nurtures the<BR> <BR> biological wealth -- the life, the living organisms -- in the soil. And it<BR> <BR> is this biological life that actually produces many of the nutrients we<BR> <BR> need. This is one (of several) reasons why use of pesticides is SO damaging<BR> <BR> to the food supply. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> Best to all,<BR> <BR> Elchanan<BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> Susan [sdmendell] <BR> <BR> Wednesday, March 09, 2005 6:53 AM<BR> <BR> rawfood <BR> <BR> [Raw Food] Supplements<BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> I apologize if this topic has already been discussed...I am new to <BR> <BR> this group and to living foods in general. I am just wondering how <BR> <BR> folks feel about supplements. After being a vegetarian for years, I <BR> <BR> got tired of people telling me that I had to worry about not getting <BR> <BR> enough B12 in my diet. So, I looked into buying a B12 supplement and <BR> <BR> discovered that they were made out of seashells. And I am sure that <BR> <BR> they weren't just seashells lying around the beach. Creatures were <BR> <BR> most likely killed to get those shells. I heard that you could get <BR> <BR> synthisized B12 somehwere, but how good could that be? Anyway, any <BR> <BR> opinions will be appreciated.<BR> <BR> Susan<BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Elchanan... I like to use the MMA (Methylmalonic Acid) test as it seems to be the golden standard for B12. Also, if the farmers (corporate) would discover how to re-mineralize their land, the bugs would leave the crops alone. When a plant is vibrating at the correct frequency and is healthy...there is no need for pesticides or any type of spray! Thanks for sharing your insight Steven INFO @ Vibrant Life [VLinfo] Thursday, March 10, 2005 12:26 AM rawfood RE: [Raw Food] B-12, anemia, pesticides Thanks, Steven. Much of the material you provide is fine, some is outdated and/or incomplete. The discussion about pernicious anemia is overblown and results largely from medical misdirection, mistaking symptoms for causes, that sort of thing. and the connection actually established by clinical research is quite weak at best. Anemia is largely caused by other factors, particularly excessive menstrual discharge in women, This, in turn is caused by a combination of poor diet, stress, and the gargantuan shift in hormones in the diet due to use of pesticides, particularly those with estrogen-mimicking side effects. Women used to begin menstruating in their mid-teens; now many American girls begin before age 10. The effects later in life are just beginning to be identified but appear to be horrendous. The effects of pesticides are actually far more serious than most people realize. Pesticides in use today are more than 3,000 times stronger than those first put into service back in 1946-1947. In fact, inability to continue this trend (making ever-stronger pesticides) is the primary commercial motivation behind the big genetic engineering push. The first goal has been to create bug-resistant and even pesticide-resistant plants. Pesticides contribute directly to B-12 depletion by annihilating the bacteria IN THE SOIL that produce the B-12. This has been demonstrated now on more than one occasion, particularly by a researcher in France. Further, rising pesticide use is the most highly correlated factor with increasing male impotency in the U.S. This has been true in analysis of date from EVERY year since the first widespread use of pesticides in 1947. In fact, if we continue, some scientists believe we have a potentially extinction-level situation. Finally, returning to my recommendation, I merely suggested getting good data on the state of B-12 in one's body before taking any supplements. If we consume more of something than we need, we create a situation where our body must expend valuable resources to eliminate that excess and/or store the material for later elimination. This seems prudent to me. Best, and thanks again for bringing all this great information to light. Elchanan Steven [rawfasting] Wednesday, March 09, 2005 8:48 PM rawfood RE: [Raw Food] Supplements, B-12 Elchanan... You may want to consider this in your B12 recommendations! Best to you! Steven _______________ Vitamin B12 / Cyanocobalamin (Page 1) Excerpt from and my appreciation to: The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001. http://www.bartleby.com/65/vi/vitamin.html vitamin: A group of organic substances that are required in the diet of humans and animals for normal growth, maintenance of life, and normal reproduction... If viewed at above web-page linked above, scroll down to section #16 to see Vitamin B12 Vitamin B12 The molecular structure of vitamin B12 vitamin. B12 (cobalamin), the most complex of all known vitamins, was announced in 1955 by several scientists, including British biochemists A. R. Todd and Dorothy Hodgkin. In 1973 the vitamin was reported to have been synthesized by organic chemists. Vitamin B12 and closely related cobalamins are necessary for folic acid to fulfill its role; both are involved in the synthesis of proteins. American physicians G. R. Minot and W. P. Murphy in 1926 fed large amounts of liver to patients with pernicious anemia and cured them; the curative substance in this case was probably vitamin B12. However, pernicious anemia in humans is caused not by a vitamin B12 deficiency in the diet but rather the absence of a substance called the intrinsic factor, ordinarily secreted by the stomach and responsible for facilitating the absorption of B12 from the intestine. When a person's body cannot produce the intrinsic factor, the standard treatment today is to inject vitamin B12 directly into the bloodstream. Minot and Murphy's therapy worked because the liver they fed their patients contained such large quantities of B12 that sufficient amounts of the vitamin were absorbed without the assistance of the intrinsic factor. Inadequate absorption of B12 causes pernicious anemia, nervous system degeneration, and amenorrhea. The only site of cobalamin synthesis in nature appears to be in microorganisms*; neither animals nor higher plants are capable of making these vitamin B12 derivatives. Nevertheless, such animal tissues as the liver, kidney, and heart of ruminants contain relatively large quantities of vitamin B12; the vitamin stored in these organs was originally produced by the (Cyano-) bacteria in the ruminant gut. Bivalves (clams or oysters), which siphon microorganisms* from the sea, are also good sources. Plants, on the other hand, are poor sources of (concentrated)** vitamin B12. The recommended daily dietary allowance for adults is 3 (? see all below) micrograms. Inoculations destroy the Stomach and GI Track and cause Intrisic factor. My notes and added information for above: microorganisms* * Cyanocobalamin - Vitamin B12 producing bacteria are in the Cyanobacterium (algae, moses) family. This class of microorganisms are bacteria that generally require and live in the sunlight and/or oxygenated environment of the plant surfaces, roots, upper soils and in the waters (near surface). They do not survive in the black dark anaerobic environment of interior animal tissues -- though their exo- and endo-compounds (metabolic excretions), including the vitamin B12 compound group, do and is accumulated and concentrated in the herbivorous (plant material consuming) animal (in fecal material, intestines, hence delivered into all body tissues, blood, muscles, entrails, esp. liver and kidneys) and is also expressed (to manage internal tissue levels) through and in body fluids (milk, mucus, urine) or ova (eggs). There is some presumptions of data that pro ports they (Cyanocobalamin bacteria) have some survival and production activity in the (dissolved oxygen and plant nutrient available) gut (primarily gullet and lower intestine) of herbivores / ruminants (e.g. cow, goat, horse, etc.) animals. But it is well understood that the critically important source of B12 in livestock (gen. ruminant) production is in your (unwashed, untreated) silage (corn, grains, beet pulp, ferments) along with alfalfa and hay, wheat grass, barley grass, where these plant loving cyano-bacteria flourish, then enter into the consuming animal! (concentrated**) -- my insertion to the Columbia Encyclopedia's text, 2nd to last line above. God and nature has made no mistakes in providing sufficient Vitamin B12 to billions of herbivorous animals over millions of millennia - including the vegetarian primates (our biologically nearest creational equivalents) and man! -- if he (man) makes the right dietary choices and nourishes himself the way he was originally designed! -- that is: in and from the garden! -- the perfect home of pure, uncontaminated, light, oxygen and vegetation loving Cyanocobalamin in correct bounty, in low concentrations, but sufficient for our needs!-- Not extorted from defiled, destroyed, killed, disease hosting, disease transmitting and B12 hyper-concentrating animals -- especially carnivorous animals (as poultry, pork, fish, etc.) which accumulate and concentrate even more B12 in their tissue, fluids and ova at levels above and higher than the herbivorous animals and/or the insects which they consume. Hence carnivores (including man when he chooses to be such) do ultra-concentrate B12 in their tissues! Hence in carnivorous man, a falsely high mean standard of B12 levels is accumulated in phlebotomy data and is accepted as the human norm! -- Not good or honest science!!! And that false high standard precipitates wrong diagnosis! that is, lower test values of accumulated serum*** B12 levels -- which are naturally less in non-carnivorous humans and their dependent nursing infants! They then are endangered with the unnecessary administrations of (the sewage and/or animal harvested and formulated) B12 injections and/or tablets, with their plethora of contraindications (ill side affects) possible in many recipient patients or wrongly treated victims! *** serum (blood stream) levels of B12 is not always a good indication of true internal, intra-/inter-cellular, metabolic, B12 functional levels. It is also (now) known that the cells are very conservative with B12; keeping appropriate stores of it within the cells themselves, recycling it within the intra-cellular (inside) chemistry and allowing only what is necessary in inter-cellular (between cells) chemistry to be exported, hence not requiring (as was previously presumed) high levels of B12 to be carried in blood flow to replenish it. -- tlr 7/3/03 Standard medicine has seriously erred in violation of honored Koch postulates and true scientific method, by producing unnatural high average blood level standards for B12, and assuming them as the correct human mean -- based upon hematological data accumulated and calculated in the cross-section of primarily heavily carnivorous USA/Industrial world humans! Not a true or honest measure for serum B12 levels for all of humanity, nor for creation's biologically intended, apparent and correct human nutrition, chemistry and physiology! The original concern over Vitamin B12 deficiency (based on research started before three quarters of a century ago and completed over a half century ago) was a perceived relationship in poor health conditions called " pernicious anima " (and other closely related neurological and physiological malfunctions). It now has been established that the true cause of this group of maladies is a failure in the bodies own ability to produce its own correct " intrinsic factor " , a compound associated with B12's intra/intercellular transport and use -- which is ill-formed in a hydrochloric acid and bile abused (a condition specifically triggered by the corrosive digestion required for complex, high molecular weight, dense animal proteins and fats within a) malnourished, malfunctioning, or chemically damaged (or rarely, a genetically flawed) intestinal tract -- rather than the old belief that the cause was (as presumed) a Vitamin B12 intake or (a test determined*) serum level deficiency! -- This error in perception, diagnoses and treatment does persist, even to date among too many non-current or incompletely educated health practitioners, their older peers, administrations and dependent government health and welfare agencies! -- tlr 7/2/03 *Remember, these test protocols and standards were determined over a half century year ago, and also were based on generally highly carnivorous, western human models. ---------- ---- Personal references: Veterinary & Human Biology & Pathology education and reference books / personal Human, Animal, Livestock and Marine (algae) research and experience -- and required knowledge for good livestock production and profit -- in my past. I will try to improve upon and expand this page later as my resources/time allow. In the meantime, you may see a reference to intestinal (microvilli) repair at LDSVeg.org/Raw.htm#microvilli, and other intestine and whole body healing and nutritional information on LifeSave.org, VeganCowboy.org, WaterAndLife.org and our other subject specific sites (listed on Lifesave.org and VeganCowboy.org) TLR. 7/1/03 Appreciation to my wife and family: Constructing this page has taken more than three full days away from family and real income producing work (which also goes to cover this labors total costs including the necessary ongoing internet debts). This required the confirming in all my old references, personal texts and notes from forty years education and experience back; then the time and concentration to ponder, recheck my supporting data, organize, write, edit, rewrite re-edit -- and I am probably still not finished with refining it for you! My hope is you will be benefited, have correct knowledge, prove it yourself as is possible, and that you will appreciate this labor and sacrifice (especially that which affects and leaves my family short) for you, the reader! -- tlr INFO @ Vibrant Life [VLinfo] Wednesday, March 09, 2005 11:33 PM rawfood RE: [Raw Food] Supplements, B-12 Hi Susan, Every question is an honorable and noble inquiry in pursuit of growth and self-improvement. Repetition affords us the opportunity to reinforce what we have already leaned and to offer variances in perspective. In general, use of supplements is a tacit admission that one's current diet (or an author's recommended diet) does not work. Nutrients in plants come by the thousands and tens of thousands. They are balanced in proportion to one another in perfect combinations we cannot even begin to notice, much less unravel. In contrast, nutrients in boxes and bottles come a few at a time, in whatever combination is convenient and cost-effective for the manufacturer. So from my perspective, it's food 10, supplements, zero. B-12 is the one exception cited even by some people who generally eschew supplements. B-12 is the largest and most complex of the vitamins, and to my knowledge " modern science " can only grow it, not synthesize it, at least as of the present. B-12 is bacteria poop and occurs quite naturally wherever certain bacteria are present. As a result, manufacture of certain antibiotics (penicillin, streptomycin) yields a supply of B-12. ONLY TAKE A B-12 SUPPLEMENT IF YOU REALLY NEED IT. YOUR FRIENDS AND MOST OF YOUR TEACHERS HAVE NO EARTHLY IDEA WHETHER THIS IS SO, unless one of them actually happens to have access to blood testing apparatus and knows what to do with the results. If you do choose to take a B-12 supplement, choose a sublingual variety (liquid, under the tongue) for fastest and least disruptive absorption. And you only need a little -- current estimates are that we need about 1 microgram (one millionth of a gram) per day. And our system can store surplus B-12 for future use, unlike some vitamins. However, there another and MUCH better solution than any form of supplements. Search out farmers who compost extensively. There soil, and the foods grown in that soil, will contain B-12, at least after they've done it for a couple of years. This occurs because composting nurtures the biological wealth -- the life, the living organisms -- in the soil. And it is this biological life that actually produces many of the nutrients we need. This is one (of several) reasons why use of pesticides is SO damaging to the food supply. Best to all, Elchanan Susan [sdmendell] Wednesday, March 09, 2005 6:53 AM rawfood [Raw Food] Supplements I apologize if this topic has already been discussed...I am new to this group and to living foods in general. I am just wondering how folks feel about supplements. After being a vegetarian for years, I got tired of people telling me that I had to worry about not getting enough B12 in my diet. So, I looked into buying a B12 supplement and discovered that they were made out of seashells. And I am sure that they weren't just seashells lying around the beach. Creatures were most likely killed to get those shells. I heard that you could get synthisized B12 somehwere, but how good could that be? Anyway, any opinions will be appreciated. Susan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Welcome! And I agree, that is a good B-12 standard, to the extent that there is any good standard. But we might all keep in mind that ALL present standards are nothing more than negotiated values loosely based upon statistical norms drawn from a sick population. In other words, eat and enjoy! Elchanan Steven [rawfasting] Thursday, March 10, 2005 9:18 AM rawfood RE: [Raw Food] B-12, anemia, pesticides Elchanan... I like to use the MMA (Methylmalonic Acid) test as it seems to be the golden standard for B12. Also, if the farmers (corporate) would discover how to re-mineralize their land, the bugs would leave the crops alone. When a plant is vibrating at the correct frequency and is healthy...there is no need for pesticides or any type of spray! Thanks for sharing your insight Steven INFO @ Vibrant Life [VLinfo] Thursday, March 10, 2005 12:26 AM rawfood RE: [Raw Food] B-12, anemia, pesticides Thanks, Steven. Much of the material you provide is fine, some is outdated and/or incomplete. The discussion about pernicious anemia is overblown and results largely from medical misdirection, mistaking symptoms for causes, that sort of thing. and the connection actually established by clinical research is quite weak at best. Anemia is largely caused by other factors, particularly excessive menstrual discharge in women, This, in turn is caused by a combination of poor diet, stress, and the gargantuan shift in hormones in the diet due to use of pesticides, particularly those with estrogen-mimicking side effects. Women used to begin menstruating in their mid-teens; now many American girls begin before age 10. The effects later in life are just beginning to be identified but appear to be horrendous. The effects of pesticides are actually far more serious than most people realize. Pesticides in use today are more than 3,000 times stronger than those first put into service back in 1946-1947. In fact, inability to continue this trend (making ever-stronger pesticides) is the primary commercial motivation behind the big genetic engineering push. The first goal has been to create bug-resistant and even pesticide-resistant plants. Pesticides contribute directly to B-12 depletion by annihilating the bacteria IN THE SOIL that produce the B-12. This has been demonstrated now on more than one occasion, particularly by a researcher in France. Further, rising pesticide use is the most highly correlated factor with increasing male impotency in the U.S. This has been true in analysis of date from EVERY year since the first widespread use of pesticides in 1947. In fact, if we continue, some scientists believe we have a potentially extinction-level situation. Finally, returning to my recommendation, I merely suggested getting good data on the state of B-12 in one's body before taking any supplements. If we consume more of something than we need, we create a situation where our body must expend valuable resources to eliminate that excess and/or store the material for later elimination. This seems prudent to me. Best, and thanks again for bringing all this great information to light. Elchanan Steven [rawfasting] Wednesday, March 09, 2005 8:48 PM rawfood RE: [Raw Food] Supplements, B-12 Elchanan... You may want to consider this in your B12 recommendations! Best to you! Steven _______________ Vitamin B12 / Cyanocobalamin (Page 1) Excerpt from and my appreciation to: The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001. http://www.bartleby.com/65/vi/vitamin.html vitamin: A group of organic substances that are required in the diet of humans and animals for normal growth, maintenance of life, and normal reproduction... If viewed at above web-page linked above, scroll down to section #16 to see Vitamin B12 Vitamin B12 The molecular structure of vitamin B12 vitamin. B12 (cobalamin), the most complex of all known vitamins, was announced in 1955 by several scientists, including British biochemists A. R. Todd and Dorothy Hodgkin. In 1973 the vitamin was reported to have been synthesized by organic chemists. Vitamin B12 and closely related cobalamins are necessary for folic acid to fulfill its role; both are involved in the synthesis of proteins. American physicians G. R. Minot and W. P. Murphy in 1926 fed large amounts of liver to patients with pernicious anemia and cured them; the curative substance in this case was probably vitamin B12. However, pernicious anemia in humans is caused not by a vitamin B12 deficiency in the diet but rather the absence of a substance called the intrinsic factor, ordinarily secreted by the stomach and responsible for facilitating the absorption of B12 from the intestine. When a person's body cannot produce the intrinsic factor, the standard treatment today is to inject vitamin B12 directly into the bloodstream. Minot and Murphy's therapy worked because the liver they fed their patients contained such large quantities of B12 that sufficient amounts of the vitamin were absorbed without the assistance of the intrinsic factor. Inadequate absorption of B12 causes pernicious anemia, nervous system degeneration, and amenorrhea. The only site of cobalamin synthesis in nature appears to be in microorganisms*; neither animals nor higher plants are capable of making these vitamin B12 derivatives. Nevertheless, such animal tissues as the liver, kidney, and heart of ruminants contain relatively large quantities of vitamin B12; the vitamin stored in these organs was originally produced by the (Cyano-) bacteria in the ruminant gut. Bivalves (clams or oysters), which siphon microorganisms* from the sea, are also good sources. Plants, on the other hand, are poor sources of (concentrated)** vitamin B12. The recommended daily dietary allowance for adults is 3 (? see all below) micrograms. Inoculations destroy the Stomach and GI Track and cause Intrisic factor. My notes and added information for above: microorganisms* * Cyanocobalamin - Vitamin B12 producing bacteria are in the Cyanobacterium (algae, moses) family. This class of microorganisms are bacteria that generally require and live in the sunlight and/or oxygenated environment of the plant surfaces, roots, upper soils and in the waters (near surface). They do not survive in the black dark anaerobic environment of interior animal tissues -- though their exo- and endo-compounds (metabolic excretions), including the vitamin B12 compound group, do and is accumulated and concentrated in the herbivorous (plant material consuming) animal (in fecal material, intestines, hence delivered into all body tissues, blood, muscles, entrails, esp. liver and kidneys) and is also expressed (to manage internal tissue levels) through and in body fluids (milk, mucus, urine) or ova (eggs). There is some presumptions of data that pro ports they (Cyanocobalamin bacteria) have some survival and production activity in the (dissolved oxygen and plant nutrient available) gut (primarily gullet and lower intestine) of herbivores / ruminants (e.g. cow, goat, horse, etc.) animals. But it is well understood that the critically important source of B12 in livestock (gen. ruminant) production is in your (unwashed, untreated) silage (corn, grains, beet pulp, ferments) along with alfalfa and hay, wheat grass, barley grass, where these plant loving cyano-bacteria flourish, then enter into the consuming animal! (concentrated**) -- my insertion to the Columbia Encyclopedia's text, 2nd to last line above. God and nature has made no mistakes in providing sufficient Vitamin B12 to billions of herbivorous animals over millions of millennia - including the vegetarian primates (our biologically nearest creational equivalents) and man! -- if he (man) makes the right dietary choices and nourishes himself the way he was originally designed! -- that is: in and from the garden! -- the perfect home of pure, uncontaminated, light, oxygen and vegetation loving Cyanocobalamin in correct bounty, in low concentrations, but sufficient for our needs!-- Not extorted from defiled, destroyed, killed, disease hosting, disease transmitting and B12 hyper-concentrating animals -- especially carnivorous animals (as poultry, pork, fish, etc.) which accumulate and concentrate even more B12 in their tissue, fluids and ova at levels above and higher than the herbivorous animals and/or the insects which they consume. Hence carnivores (including man when he chooses to be such) do ultra-concentrate B12 in their tissues! Hence in carnivorous man, a falsely high mean standard of B12 levels is accumulated in phlebotomy data and is accepted as the human norm! -- Not good or honest science!!! And that false high standard precipitates wrong diagnosis! that is, lower test values of accumulated serum*** B12 levels -- which are naturally less in non-carnivorous humans and their dependent nursing infants! They then are endangered with the unnecessary administrations of (the sewage and/or animal harvested and formulated) B12 injections and/or tablets, with their plethora of contraindications (ill side affects) possible in many recipient patients or wrongly treated victims! *** serum (blood stream) levels of B12 is not always a good indication of true internal, intra-/inter-cellular, metabolic, B12 functional levels. It is also (now) known that the cells are very conservative with B12; keeping appropriate stores of it within the cells themselves, recycling it within the intra-cellular (inside) chemistry and allowing only what is necessary in inter-cellular (between cells) chemistry to be exported, hence not requiring (as was previously presumed) high levels of B12 to be carried in blood flow to replenish it. -- tlr 7/3/03 Standard medicine has seriously erred in violation of honored Koch postulates and true scientific method, by producing unnatural high average blood level standards for B12, and assuming them as the correct human mean -- based upon hematological data accumulated and calculated in the cross-section of primarily heavily carnivorous USA/Industrial world humans! Not a true or honest measure for serum B12 levels for all of humanity, nor for creation's biologically intended, apparent and correct human nutrition, chemistry and physiology! The original concern over Vitamin B12 deficiency (based on research started before three quarters of a century ago and completed over a half century ago) was a perceived relationship in poor health conditions called " pernicious anima " (and other closely related neurological and physiological malfunctions). It now has been established that the true cause of this group of maladies is a failure in the bodies own ability to produce its own correct " intrinsic factor " , a compound associated with B12's intra/intercellular transport and use -- which is ill-formed in a hydrochloric acid and bile abused (a condition specifically triggered by the corrosive digestion required for complex, high molecular weight, dense animal proteins and fats within a) malnourished, malfunctioning, or chemically damaged (or rarely, a genetically flawed) intestinal tract -- rather than the old belief that the cause was (as presumed) a Vitamin B12 intake or (a test determined*) serum level deficiency! -- This error in perception, diagnoses and treatment does persist, even to date among too many non-current or incompletely educated health practitioners, their older peers, administrations and dependent government health and welfare agencies! -- tlr 7/2/03 *Remember, these test protocols and standards were determined over a half century year ago, and also were based on generally highly carnivorous, western human models. ---------- ---- Personal references: Veterinary & Human Biology & Pathology education and reference books / personal Human, Animal, Livestock and Marine (algae) research and experience -- and required knowledge for good livestock production and profit -- in my past. I will try to improve upon and expand this page later as my resources/time allow. In the meantime, you may see a reference to intestinal (microvilli) repair at LDSVeg.org/Raw.htm#microvilli, and other intestine and whole body healing and nutritional information on LifeSave.org, VeganCowboy.org, WaterAndLife.org and our other subject specific sites (listed on Lifesave.org and VeganCowboy.org) TLR. 7/1/03 Appreciation to my wife and family: Constructing this page has taken more than three full days away from family and real income producing work (which also goes to cover this labors total costs including the necessary ongoing internet debts). This required the confirming in all my old references, personal texts and notes from forty years education and experience back; then the time and concentration to ponder, recheck my supporting data, organize, write, edit, rewrite re-edit -- and I am probably still not finished with refining it for you! My hope is you will be benefited, have correct knowledge, prove it yourself as is possible, and that you will appreciate this labor and sacrifice (especially that which affects and leaves my family short) for you, the reader! -- tlr INFO @ Vibrant Life [VLinfo] Wednesday, March 09, 2005 11:33 PM rawfood RE: [Raw Food] Supplements, B-12 Hi Susan, Every question is an honorable and noble inquiry in pursuit of growth and self-improvement. Repetition affords us the opportunity to reinforce what we have already leaned and to offer variances in perspective. In general, use of supplements is a tacit admission that one's current diet (or an author's recommended diet) does not work. Nutrients in plants come by the thousands and tens of thousands. They are balanced in proportion to one another in perfect combinations we cannot even begin to notice, much less unravel. In contrast, nutrients in boxes and bottles come a few at a time, in whatever combination is convenient and cost-effective for the manufacturer. So from my perspective, it's food 10, supplements, zero. B-12 is the one exception cited even by some people who generally eschew supplements. B-12 is the largest and most complex of the vitamins, and to my knowledge " modern science " can only grow it, not synthesize it, at least as of the present. B-12 is bacteria poop and occurs quite naturally wherever certain bacteria are present. As a result, manufacture of certain antibiotics (penicillin, streptomycin) yields a supply of B-12. ONLY TAKE A B-12 SUPPLEMENT IF YOU REALLY NEED IT. YOUR FRIENDS AND MOST OF YOUR TEACHERS HAVE NO EARTHLY IDEA WHETHER THIS IS SO, unless one of them actually happens to have access to blood testing apparatus and knows what to do with the results. If you do choose to take a B-12 supplement, choose a sublingual variety (liquid, under the tongue) for fastest and least disruptive absorption. And you only need a little -- current estimates are that we need about 1 microgram (one millionth of a gram) per day. And our system can store surplus B-12 for future use, unlike some vitamins. However, there another and MUCH better solution than any form of supplements. Search out farmers who compost extensively. There soil, and the foods grown in that soil, will contain B-12, at least after they've done it for a couple of years. This occurs because composting nurtures the biological wealth -- the life, the living organisms -- in the soil. And it is this biological life that actually produces many of the nutrients we need. This is one (of several) reasons why use of pesticides is SO damaging to the food supply. Best to all, Elchanan Susan [sdmendell] Wednesday, March 09, 2005 6:53 AM rawfood [Raw Food] Supplements I apologize if this topic has already been discussed...I am new to this group and to living foods in general. I am just wondering how folks feel about supplements. After being a vegetarian for years, I got tired of people telling me that I had to worry about not getting enough B12 in my diet. So, I looked into buying a B12 supplement and discovered that they were made out of seashells. And I am sure that they weren't just seashells lying around the beach. Creatures were most likely killed to get those shells. I heard that you could get synthisized B12 somehwere, but how good could that be? Anyway, any opinions will be appreciated. Susan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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