RE: Cayenne: medicine or irritant? (WAS: NH: Condiments - Long and informative! lol!) [s]

[Guest guest]

Persian Tuesday, May 24, 2005 1:51 PM Re: [Raw Food]

NH: Condiments - Long and informative! lol!

Bob wrote: Cayenne pepper, and all condiments, possess no healing or

restorative powers in and of themselves. In fact, the body must divert its

own healing processes in an effort to eliminate such substances.

 

Persian responded:

Whilst this is an interesting article I strongly disagree with the author

over cayenne. Cayenne pepper is a very useful herb and is especially good

for heart problems and circulatory problems ETC. It certainly does possess

healing powers, check it out, particularly Dr John R Christopher's work.

________________________

 

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________________________

Hi everyone,

The challenge here is that both statements contain some correct

information/perspective, and both are also incomplete. This incompleteness

arises from lack of any larger frame of reference. We can argue substances

until the end of time without resolving anything...we require some larger

framework in order to make sense of things.

 

One can approach this discussion in more than one way, labeled 1 and 2

below.

 

1. If we accept that the body is a self-monitoring, self-cleansing,

self-maintaining system, then the very idea that any outside substance

" heals " anything seems absurd. On the other hand, the body clearly uses

incoming material as the building blocks for new healthy tissue, for acid

buffering, and for other purposes. So far, no definitive conclusion can be

drawn.

 

We might next ask, does a particular substance (cayenne, in this case)

contain one or materials that the body might use constructively. The answer

is " yes, " without going into any detail, cayenne does indeed contain one or

more such substances. However, one can extract at least a few nutrients from

a table leg with enough processing, so this, in and of itself, still does

not allow us to draw any definitive conclusion about the value of cayenne to

humans.

 

We might next ask, does this substance (cayenne, in this case) contain one

or more materials that the body interprets as foreign matter and therefore

rejects. The answer again is " yes, " again without going into any detail,

cayenne does indeed contain one or more such substances. In this sense,

cayenne may be perceived as toxic to at least some degree. So how might we

resolve this apparent conundrum?

 

We might next ask, are there any foods that bring into the body the same or

substantially similar constructive substances we find in cayenne WITHOUT

also bringing in anything toxic? The answer is " yes, " again without going

into any detail. So now we begin to see some light at the end of our inquiry

tunnel. There appear to be other, superior (nontoxic) ways to obtain the

same benefit(s) we might obtain through eating cayenne.

 

2. An entirely different approach arises when we consider our place in the

biological taxonomy (the organization of all the known species into

families, orders, phylla, etc.) We humans are primates, and we share

certain characteristics with all other primates, and in particular with the

anthropoid primates (gorillas, chimps, bonobos).

 

Now suppose we had never before encountered cayenne, and we are not

encountering it for the first time IN ITS WHOLE FORM. We might ask, how does

ANY primate attempt to determine whether a new, unfamiliar substance is or

is not food. In Nature, the answer is substantially the same for all

primates, we use our senses IN A PARTICULAR ORDER.

 

- sight, does this substance, in its whole form, LOOK appealing and safe?

- touch, does this substance, in its whole form, FEEL appealing and safe?

- smell, does this substance, in its whole form, SMELL appealing and safe?

- taste, does this substance, in its whole form, TASTE good BY ITSELF?

 

It would be difficult to argue either way, from our modern perspective, with

respect to the first two tests, we would have to observe primates

encountering cayenne for the first time. I do not choose to spend my time

and energy in this way.

 

However, when we consider smell and taste, we can learn quite a bit by

observing our own response. If we pass cayenne, cracked open, under the nose

of a primate, such as a human, there is an immediate rejection response ...

we sneeze!! The body attempts, in no uncertain terms, to prevent this

substance from entering. To the extent that we might inhale a tiny

(hopefully) bit, we sniffle, our nose runs, etc. This is a mucoid response,

and ALL mucoid responses are the body's attempt to isolate and eliminate

(remove) foreign matter (toxins).

 

Similarly, I am not aware of any human who has ever successfully eaten

cayenne IN ITS WHOLE FORM. If one were ever to bite into a WHOLE cayenne,

one would surely run for the nearest river and jump in. In both cases (smell

and taste), the body's response is acute (strong, violent and immediate).

The body would clearly and forcefully reject the cayenne. (The only

exception that might occur when someone's senses of smell and taste have

been substantially obliterated through ingestion of destructive " foods " over

many years.)

 

Because the body responds in these ways, cayenne is categorized as an

" irritant, " it is not food for our species nor for any species in the

primate tree. Further, because other genuine foods provide the same benefit,

there is no UNIQUE " medicinal " value to cayenne, either. Therefore, I choose

to consume none.

 

I hope this rather lengthy walking through a thought process is helpful to

some in the group.

 

Best to all,

Elchanan

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

On Tue, May 24, 2005 at 03:15:52 -0700, INFO @ Vibrant Life wrote:

> information/perspective, and both are also incomplete. This incompleteness

> arises from lack of any larger frame of reference. We can argue substances

 

 

Very nicely written, we will have to agree to disagree. I still believe,

particularly after doing a herbal course for several years, that cayenne does

have a lot of unique medicinal properties. The fact that primates or man may

not eat it in the wild does not seem relevant to me, I am sure others will

disagree!

We don't dig up and eat raw dandelion roots either I guess, but when they are

prepared as a tincture, beverage etc it then becomes one of the most useful

herbs to man, of course you can eat the leaves as well. Dandelion leaves taste

VERY bitter, but this is part of their effect, they cause a reflex action on

the taste buds with the bitter taste and this goes on to stimulate all the

digestive processes. They are useful to treat and prevent many things including

sluggish liver and many more.

 

best regards

Persian

--

 

" As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no

peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot

dwell together " - Isaac Bashevis Singer

 

" Atrocities are not less atrocities when they occur in laboratories and are

called medical research " - George Bernard Shaw

[Guest guest]

rawfood , Persian <persian13@i...> wrote:

 

 

Hello all!

 

yes, Persian, we will have to disagree:

 

People believed for years that the earth was flat also: that didn't

make it true! You're absolutely entitled to your beliefs.

The specific reason I find these substances

objectionable/irritants/poisons are the following:

 

1. harmful alkaloids, which are more injurious than the common black

pepper. When cayenne is eaten, the body is thrown into an emergency

state in an attempt to eliminate the toxic oils and substances in the

peppers;

 

2. Cayenne contains a poisonous alkaloid called peperidin and a

harmful crystalline substance knows as piperin. They also contain

acric resins and volatile oils which irritate the digestive and

urinary tracts. Cayenne also contains an alkaloid called capsicin

which irritates the body so severely that circulation is rapidly

increased in order to remove it from the system.

 

Cayenne has probably achieved its reputation as a " beneficial "

condiment for two reasons: it it initially painful (burning) to eat,

and it causes a mucus outflow from the body. Because cayenne is such

a powerful irritant, the body secretes extra mucus in order to

eliminate the harmful alkaloids.

 

and the 2nd point where we undoubtedly differ is that " substances " do

not act upon the body, the body acts upon the " substance " . Whatever

effects are being credited to any herbs, is the body either acting

upon that substance, and/or using some part of it for its own

internal processing.

 

And, Persian, your view of herbs, is generally *not* supported as

part of Natural Hygiene, a focus of the list.

 

I'll have to side with Dr. H.M. Shelton vs. Dr. Christopher.

 

all the best,

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

Bob Farrell wrote:

 

> rawfood , Persian <persian13@i...> wrote:

>

>

> Hello all!

>

> yes, Persian, we will have to disagree:

>

> People believed for years that the earth was flat also: that didn't

> make it true! You're absolutely entitled to your beliefs.

> The specific reason I find these substances

> objectionable/irritants/poisons are the following:

>

> 1. harmful alkaloids, which are more injurious than the common black

> pepper. When cayenne is eaten, the body is thrown into an emergency

> state in an attempt to eliminate the toxic oils and substances in the

> peppers;

>

> 2. Cayenne contains a poisonous alkaloid called peperidin and a

> harmful crystalline substance knows as piperin. They also contain

> acric resins and volatile oils which irritate the digestive and

> urinary tracts. Cayenne also contains an alkaloid called capsicin

> which irritates the body so severely that circulation is rapidly

> increased in order to remove it from the system.

 

======================

Hi Bob,

 

I am responding to this just to clarify your above statement in #2.

Cayenne DOES NOT contain perperidine nor piperin. Those two constituents

are contained in black pepper, not cayenne. One of the things we all

need to recall when posting information is making certain that our

information is correct. There are many online sites where chemical

constituents of foods or plants can be found.

 

Also, would you be so kind and explain what an acric resin is? Did you

mean acrylic resin?

 

--

Peace be with you, Bob.

 

Don " Quai " Eitner

 

" Spirit sleeps in the mineral, breathes in the vegetable, dreams in the animal

and wakes in man. "

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

I think one of the difficulties with all of this is that even with

herbs being considered a safe and more 'natural' way of treating

bodily dysfunction is that we still depend on the herbs as a

medicine, a way of treating the symptoms without dealing with the

underlying problem.

 

For years I used valerian and chamomile at night, to help me relax

and sleep, rather than questioning why sleep was a problem. I used

St. John's wort to elevate my spirits when feeling slightly

depressed, rather than dealing with what was behind the feeling.

Using cayenne for sluggish liver, etc., may deal with the symptom,

but why are the problems there in the first place?

 

There is nothing that I used herbs for over the years that has not

been addressed by changing my diet. I know this is simply anecdotal

evidence, but I offer it for what it is worth. I sleep well now

without herbal assistance, and when feeling low, I am better able to

deal with what is behind that feeling. Aside from the odd day when

there appears to be some more body cleansing going on, nothing

appears to be 'sluggish' internally.

 

I've had to get away from the idea of 'fixing' things in my body,

and I've been able to begin to focus on providing nourishment for

growth. It has been wonderful to no longer worry about all the

things that are going wrong with my body, and instead be able to

focus on how things are growing and healing, blossoming and

renewing.

 

I still keep some herbs around, but only in the form of potpourri! I

love the pretty smells! :-)

 

Peace, Valerie

[Guest guest]

Whoa!!!!

 

>

> And, Persian, your view of herbs, is generally *not*

> supported as

> part of Natural Hygiene, a focus of the list.

>

 

Since when! This is pretty nervy! I've been on this list for several years now,

and

there are manny different raw " veiws " , of which Natural Hygiene is ony one, and

I daresay, not the most popular/discussed until very recently.

 

 

kristi

[Guest guest]

I believe Bob is right; he did not say that NH was the only point, but that

Natural Hygiene is a focus of this group; here is the description from the Raw

Food group page:

 

" Stop cooking your foods! Increasing the RAW FOOD in your diet can greatly

improve your health! Food ENZYMES are important to your health. Let's share

info, tips, sources, url's, recipes and personal experiences with eating more

RAW FOOD.

 

This group is here to support people wanting to learn how to eat a Healthy Raw

Food Diet. Just because something is raw doesn't necessarily mean it is the best

thing for us. This group supports a Vegan Raw Food Diet. Please don't come here

trying to promote other diets.

 

This is a friendly group of people. We welcome debate, but do it without name

calling and anger in the posts. Negative posts and posters will be banned.

 

You are also welcome to share your experiences with NATURAL HYGIENE. Animals in

the wild live according to their instinct and the laws of nature. They live

their lives without getting cancer, heart disease, stroke and the other diseases

of so-called " civilization. " No animal in the wild takes supplements. They just

eat the foods they are biologically adapted to.

 

Natural Hygiene is a study of nature and of health. So come and share your

experiences of nature in action. We can also discuss the writings of authors in

the raw food movement including Dr. Herbert Shelton, Dr. Douglas Graham, David

Wolfe, Dr. Gabriel Cousens and so on. "

 

Peace, Valerie

 

 

Kristen Swanson <kswanson wrote:

Whoa!!!!

 

>

> And, Persian, your view of herbs, is generally *not*

> supported as

> part of Natural Hygiene, a focus of the list.

>

 

Since when! This is pretty nervy! I've been on this list for several years now,

and

there are manny different raw " veiws " , of which Natural Hygiene is ony one, and

I daresay, not the most popular/discussed until very recently.

 

 

kristi

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

How does one find these pages that say what the group is about? Thank you. Lane

 

I believe Bob is right; he did not say that NH was the only point, but that

Natural Hygiene is a focus of this group; here is the description from the Raw

Food group page:

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I agree! The natural hygiene people as of late have

been more vocal than the rest of us, but this is NOT a

natural hygiene list and never has been.

 

swing

 

--- Kristen Swanson <kswanson wrote:

> Since when! This is pretty nervy! I've been on this

> list for several years now, and

> there are manny different raw " veiws " , of which

> Natural Hygiene is ony one, and

> I daresay, not the most popular/discussed until very

> recently.

>

>

> kristi

>