Guest guest Posted June 6, 2005 Report Share Posted June 6, 2005 Bob: I love learning about what the early practioners did -- Thank you! Iatrogenic (sp?) (The opposite of first do no harm) - medical procedure related death. Happens all the time 100,000 or more a year definately one of the top 10 causes of death. Even the most concientious and well meaning doctors do it. Average life expectancy for an MD -- 52 years of age. It makes sense - if we live by drugs and surgery then we die by drugs and surgery. Going back and forth between the two is the worst in my opinion. Tooth extraction is my only acceptable medical / dental procedure in my mind right now. As a NH practiioner I believe I need to have a medical advocate and a living will and STAY AWAY from HOSPITALS and DOCTORS. I have some friends that are doctors and I appreciate their advice (all as friends not professional) I came into raw foods to avoid a colonascopy (sp?) and/ or cancer. It is difficult to think well in the best of times but our judgement is definitely impaired when ill. Reminds me of the old joke, " You can recognize the pioneers by the scars (from arrows, knives, tomahawks and guns) on their back. " It is important for us to stay open -- as people coming into RF, NH to learn from us will learn -- what to do and what not to do. If we think we (more experienced ) are the experts then we lose out on these bright energetic newcomers insights....and we do not progress. Bill > The failure rate is over 30%, and TC was one of the failures. Can you > imagine doing that to someone who checked into the hospital because he > couldn't breathe? How smart is that? " > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2005 Report Share Posted June 6, 2005 Hey Bill! good to hear from ya! > Bob: > > I love learning about what the early practioners did -- Thank you! you're welcome; I also find in very interesting... > > Iatrogenic (sp?) (The opposite of first do no harm) - medical procedure > related death. Happens all the time 100,000 or more a year definately one of the > top 10 causes of death. Even the most concientious and well meaning doctors do > it. Average life expectancy for an MD -- 52 years of age. It makes sense - > if we live by drugs and surgery then we die by drugs and surgery. yes, very aware of this statistic -- lost my dad that way - he'd fallen and hit his head, and went into the hospital in pain when I saw him, on lots of drugs, and they'd put a " shunt " into his head in outpatient surgery (and he had a living will that stated " no extraordinary means were to be used to prolong his life.. " ; I asked the doctor if they considered an " brain shunt " ordinary, and he confirmed that they did....no surprise there I guess. He got an infection when they moved the shunt because his brain wasn't draining correctly, he went into a semi-coma, and died within 4 days of that. His living will stipulated good pain management, so he had lots of morphine his last few days, and seemed to be relatively ok, considering he was dying... not much better with my mom - she fairly recently went in for " stomach pain " , and they found that she had a ruptured colon. she had the same stipulation about no unusual means, etc., and the hospital did an emergency colon operation -- mom's still alive, with a colostomy bag, at least 8 different meds, and in poor physical, mental, and pyschological health. only sharing above as part of my strong interest in health and NH: the medical route obviously doesn't work. Going back > and forth between the two is the worst in my opinion. Tooth extraction is my > only acceptable medical / dental procedure in my mind right now. I'm in a similar spot, except that I include trauma, like a bad car accident - I'd like the bleeding stopped, and bones set. we'll see... > > As a NH practiioner I believe I need to have a medical advocate and a living > will and STAY AWAY from HOSPITALS and DOCTORS. I have some friends that are > doctors and I appreciate their advice (all as friends not professional) I > came into raw foods to avoid a colonascopy (sp?) and/ or cancer. interesting, Bill...I recently had my youngest brother (who smokes, drinks alcohol, eats lots of meat, fats, etc..etc..) reminding me that I needed to go in for my colon check, since it was one of the highest cancers, etc...etc.. I declined, and explained why to him.... > > It is difficult to think well in the best of times but our judgement is > definitely impaired when ill. agreed...if I can ever find it again, I'll get you a copy of a living will that's question and answer based? like do you want a blood transfusion? do you want to be resusitated? do you want an IV? etc..etc... > > Reminds me of the old joke, " You can recognize the pioneers by the scars > (from arrows, knives, tomahawks and guns) on their back. " true, and cute! > > It is important for us to stay open -- as people coming into RF, NH to learn > from us will learn -- what to do and what not to do. If we think we (more > experienced ) are the experts then we lose out on these bright energetic > newcomers insights....and we do not progress. it's a journey to me...and we're all in different places on the path/road -- some choosed to cirlce back and warn followers about the hazards ahead...some send smoke signals, some leave the path, and some just keep on motoring... I appreciate your posts, Bill...thanks, Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2005 Report Share Posted June 6, 2005 gee reading these troubles with a living will ..it makes me wonder what good are they.. My late fiancee had a living will and it strictly said no resucitation.. but they did anyway... I just do not understand what the purpose of them are if nobody respects them.? (and he had a living will that stated " no extraordinary means were to be used to prolong his life.. " ; I asked the doctor if they considered an " brain shunt " ordinary, and he confirmed that they did....no surprise there I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 wMilmoe Monday, June 06, 2005 11:04 AM [Raw Food] TC Fry and hospital Iatrogenic (sp?) (The opposite of first do no harm) - medical procedure related death. Happens all the time 100,000 or more a year definately one of the top 10 causes of death. Even the most concientious and well meaning doctors do it. Average life expectancy for an MD -- 52 years of age. It makes sense - if we live by drugs and surgery then we die by drugs and surgery. Going back and forth between the two is the worst in my opinion. Tooth extraction is my only acceptable medical / dental procedure in my mind right now. _____ Oh, you're gonna love this (in an unfortunate sort of way). More recent data analysis indicates that death due to iatrogenic causes is the NUMBER ONE killer in America and has been for some time, AT LEAST 3/4 million deaths annually, and that is based upon known UNDERreporting. The medical/chemical industries are engaged in systematic, intentional, mass murder resulting from their medical experiments on the entire population This is well documents in the book Murder by Injection, by Eustace Mullins, among others. I mean this just the way I say it, not mincing any words. The meaning of " informed consent " is that you give permission for them to experiment on you. After all, when did anyone actually have enough information to give genuinely informed consent to anything they do? Elchanan -- ------------------------ [ SECURITY NOTICE ] ------------------------ rawfood . For your security, vlinfo digitally signed this message on 07 June 2005 at 07:01:28 UTC. Verify this digital signature at http://www.ciphire.com/verify. ------------------- [ CIPHIRE DIGITAL SIGNATURE ] ------------------- Q2lwaGlyZSBTaWcuAVdyYXdmb29kQHlhaG9vZ3JvdXBzLmNvbQB2bGluZm9AZWFydGhsa W5rLm5ldABlbWFpbCBib2R5AJwEAAB8AHwAAAABAAAASEalQpwEAACSAgACAAIAAgAgWd +jWXfInHvayeGZWK7egaxIx/Ds85ig0C7EzQ1Fg5gBAIYEpBOTbs87zkSZHhSIvzVVwfR ghtV1X2jI/sjxmdF9DjPxdIJNVekHGOtTgdjiNfKYWFersg3NSkDOjKsX0FadPYqYU2ln RW5k --------------------- [ END DIGITAL SIGNATURE ] --------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 (and he had a living will that stated " no extraordinary means were to be used to prolong his life.. " ; I believe that this means AFTER they consider the brain to be dead. I’ll ask the attorney I work for though (unless of course there is an attorney on the group that can respond). Donna rawfood [rawfood ] On Behalf Of Bob Farrell Monday, June 06, 2005 2:25 PM rawfood [Raw Food] Re: TC Fry and hospital Hey Bill! good to hear from ya! > Bob: > > I love learning about what the early practioners did -- Thank you! you're welcome; I also find in very interesting... > > Iatrogenic (sp?) (The opposite of first do no harm) - medical procedure > related death. Happens all the time 100,000 or more a year definately one of the > top 10 causes of death. Even the most concientious and well meaning doctors do > it. Average life expectancy for an MD -- 52 years of age. It makes sense - > if we live by drugs and surgery then we die by drugs and surgery. yes, very aware of this statistic -- lost my dad that way - he'd fallen and hit his head, and went into the hospital in pain when I saw him, on lots of drugs, and they'd put a " shunt " into his head in outpatient surgery (and he had a living will that stated " no extraordinary means were to be used to prolong his life.. " ; I asked the doctor if they considered an " brain shunt " ordinary, and he confirmed that they did....no surprise there I guess. He got an infection when they moved the shunt because his brain wasn't draining correctly, he went into a semi-coma, and died within 4 days of that. His living will stipulated good pain management, so he had lots of morphine his last few days, and seemed to be relatively ok, considering he was dying... not much better with my mom - she fairly recently went in for " stomach pain " , and they found that she had a ruptured colon. she had the same stipulation about no unusual means, etc., and the hospital did an emergency colon operation -- mom's still alive, with a colostomy bag, at least 8 different meds, and in poor physical, mental, and pyschological health. only sharing above as part of my strong interest in health and NH: the medical route obviously doesn't work. Going back > and forth between the two is the worst in my opinion. Tooth extraction is my > only acceptable medical / dental procedure in my mind right now. I'm in a similar spot, except that I include trauma, like a bad car accident - I'd like the bleeding stopped, and bones set. we'll see... > > As a NH practiioner I believe I need to have a medical advocate and a living > will and STAY AWAY from HOSPITALS and DOCTORS. I have some friends that are > doctors and I appreciate their advice (all as friends not professional) I > came into raw foods to avoid a colonascopy (sp?) and/ or cancer. interesting, Bill...I recently had my youngest brother (who smokes, drinks alcohol, eats lots of meat, fats, etc..etc..) reminding me that I needed to go in for my colon check, since it was one of the highest cancers, etc...etc.. I declined, and explained why to him.... > > It is difficult to think well in the best of times but our judgement is > definitely impaired when ill. agreed...if I can ever find it again, I'll get you a copy of a living will that's question and answer based? like do you want a blood transfusion? do you want to be resusitated? do you want an IV? etc..etc... > > Reminds me of the old joke, " You can recognize the pioneers by the scars > (from arrows, knives, tomahawks and guns) on their back. " true, and cute! > > It is important for us to stay open -- as people coming into RF, NH to learn > from us will learn -- what to do and what not to do. If we think we (more > experienced ) are the experts then we lose out on these bright energetic > newcomers insights....and we do not progress. it's a journey to me...and we're all in different places on the path/road -- some choosed to cirlce back and warn followers about the hazards ahead...some send smoke signals, some leave the path, and some just keep on motoring... I appreciate your posts, Bill...thanks, Bob _____ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 (and he had a living will that stated " no extraordinary means were to be used to prolong his life.. " ; I believe that this means AFTER they consider the brain to be dead. I'll ask the attorney I work for though (unless of course there is an attorney on the group that can respond). Donna _____ No, that would a dead will, not a living will. The idea is that you are unable to make decisions for yourself, incapacitated, but still legally alive. Respect is not a long suit of the legal or medical professions these days. -- ------------------------ [ SECURITY NOTICE ] ------------------------ rawfood . For your security, vlinfo digitally signed this message on 07 June 2005 at 12:06:50 UTC. Verify this digital signature at http://www.ciphire.com/verify. ------------------- [ CIPHIRE DIGITAL SIGNATURE ] ------------------- Q2lwaGlyZSBTaWcuAVdyYXdmb29kQHlhaG9vZ3JvdXBzLmNvbQB2bGluZm9AZWFydGhsa W5rLm5ldABlbWFpbCBib2R5AKcBAAB8AHwAAAABAAAA2o2lQqcBAABzAwACAAIAAgAgWd +jWXfInHvayeGZWK7egaxIx/Ds85ig0C7EzQ1Fg5gBAIYEpBOTbs87zkSZHhSIvzVVwfR ghtV1X2jI/sjxmdF9PIYfcZhJ0H8YaAqPAFqPiJl/mGMj3bFOG0aHreaIsOgVWo/0U2ln RW5k --------------------- [ END DIGITAL SIGNATURE ] --------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 Yes, that is pretty much boiler-plate language for Death With Dignity Statements, Living Wills, and Durable Power Of Attorneys. Here's new language we built into our DPOAs as a result of the Terri Schiavo incident: To authorize, in the event of a terminal condition where my death is imminent, where an end-state condition exists, or where I am in a persistent vegetative state, and where there is no reasonable medical probability of my recovery from such condition, the withholding or withdrawal of any procedure, to include administration of nutrition and hydration, use of ventilators, use of kidney dialysis and artificial resuscitation, when the application of such procedures would serve only to prolong artificially the process of dying; and to authorize the administration of medication or the performance of any medical procedure only deemed necessary to provide me with comfort, care or to alleviate pain and suffering. swaraj, tev Donna Chagnon <donnachagnon wrote: (and he had a living will that stated " no extraordinary means were to be used to prolong his life.. " ; I believe that this means AFTER they consider the brain to be dead. I’ll ask the attorney I work for though (unless of course there is an attorney on the group that can respond). Donna The experience of dynamic religious living transforms the mediocre individual into a personality of idealistic power. Religion ministers to the progress of all through fostering the progress of each individual, and the progress of each is augmented through the achievement of all. [The Urantia Book: 1094:1] Read only the mail you want - Mail SpamGuard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2005 Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 Elchanan wrote...... " Average life expectancy for an MD -- 52 years of age. " -- Lane asks... Could you please tell us your source for this statistic. Thank you, Lane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2005 Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 I don't want a colonoscopy either. Now I'm (mostly) raw do you think I can give it a miss? Or is it too late to take that path? Thanks, Lane - wMilmoe rawfood Monday, June 06, 2005 2:03 PM [Raw Food] TC Fry and hospital Bob: I love learning about what the early practioners did -- Thank you! Iatrogenic (sp?) (The opposite of first do no harm) - medical procedure related death. Happens all the time 100,000 or more a year definately one of the top 10 causes of death. Even the most concientious and well meaning doctors do it. Average life expectancy for an MD -- 52 years of age. It makes sense - if we live by drugs and surgery then we die by drugs and surgery. Going back and forth between the two is the worst in my opinion. Tooth extraction is my only acceptable medical / dental procedure in my mind right now. As a NH practiioner I believe I need to have a medical advocate and a living will and STAY AWAY from HOSPITALS and DOCTORS. I have some friends that are doctors and I appreciate their advice (all as friends not professional) I came into raw foods to avoid a colonascopy (sp?) and/ or cancer. It is difficult to think well in the best of times but our judgement is definitely impaired when ill. Reminds me of the old joke, " You can recognize the pioneers by the scars (from arrows, knives, tomahawks and guns) on their back. " It is important for us to stay open -- as people coming into RF, NH to learn from us will learn -- what to do and what not to do. If we think we (more experienced ) are the experts then we lose out on these bright energetic newcomers insights....and we do not progress. Bill > The failure rate is over 30%, and TC was one of the failures. Can you > imagine doing that to someone who checked into the hospital because he > couldn't breathe? How smart is that? " > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2005 Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 rawfood , " lane lynn " <lanie@p...> wrote: > I don't want a colonoscopy either. Now I'm (mostly) raw do you think I can give it a miss? Or is it too late to take that path? Thanks, Lane Hi Lane! depends upon where you are " mentally " , I guess. I see it as a useless, unnatural procedure - pay someone to jam some instrument up my ass to look at the inside..? think I'll pass... all the best, Bob (fellow journeyman) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2005 Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 I find it as distasteful as you do, but is it not true it saves lives? Curious, but not doing it at present though. Happy day, Lane - Bob Farrell rawfood Wednesday, June 08, 2005 9:53 AM Re: [Raw Food] TC Fry and hospital rawfood , " lane lynn " <lanie@p...> wrote: > I don't want a colonoscopy either. Now I'm (mostly) raw do you think I can give it a miss? Or is it too late to take that path? Thanks, Lane Hi Lane! depends upon where you are " mentally " , I guess. I see it as a useless, unnatural procedure - pay someone to jam some instrument up my ass to look at the inside..? think I'll pass... all the best, Bob (fellow journeyman) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2005 Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 rawfood , " lane lynn " <lanie@p...> wrote: > I find it as distasteful as you do, but is it not true it saves lives? Curious, but not doing it at present though. Happy day, Lane no...it's false; it does not save lives: I think it has a tendency to " cripple " bodies in any of three ways: 1. they find nothing: body has *only* the trauma of the colon invasion to deal with (btw, if they find nothing, they only make money on this singular procedure... hmm...) 2. If they find " something abnormal " , then they either: a. recommend surgery - immediately, or later... both of which permanently cripple the body. b. recommend drugs to " cure " the problem... drugs are poisonous..add to the already toxic load they can't " cure " anything - only the body can heal itself. c. recommend a complete lifestyle change because we're killing ourselves. I've done *zero* research on my next statement, so it may not be true. I believe that if the procedure were done 1,000 times, well over 50% of the outcomes would be 2a or 2b. less than 10% would be option 1, and less than 1% would be option 2c....yes, I have a bias.. all the best, Bob (fellow journeyman) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2005 Report Share Posted June 9, 2005 thanks, Tev.. I'd had the original question/story.. all the best, Bob rawfood , tev treowlufu <goraw808> wrote: > Yes, that is pretty much boiler-plate language for > Death With Dignity Statements, Living Wills, and > Durable Power Of Attorneys. Here's new language > we built into our DPOAs as a result of the Terri Schiavo > incident: > > > To authorize, in the event of a terminal condition where my death is imminent, where an end-state condition exists, or where I am in a persistent vegetative state, and where there is no reasonable medical probability of my recovery from such condition, the withholding or withdrawal of any procedure, to include administration of nutrition and hydration, use of ventilators, use of kidney dialysis and artificial resuscitation, when the application of such procedures would serve only to prolong artificially the process of dying; and to authorize the administration of medication or the performance of any medical procedure only deemed necessary to provide me with comfort, care or to alleviate pain and suffering. > > swaraj, > > tev > > > Donna Chagnon <donnachagnon@n...> wrote: > > (and he had a living will that stated " no extraordinary means were to be > used to prolong his life.. " ; > > I believe that this means AFTER they consider the brain to be dead. > I'll ask the attorney I work for though (unless of course there is an > attorney on the group that can respond). > > Donna > > > The experience of dynamic religious living transforms the mediocre individual into a personality of idealistic power. Religion ministers to the progress of all through fostering the progress of each individual, and the progress of each is augmented through the achievement of all. [The Urantia Book: 1094:1] > > > > Read only the mail you want - Mail SpamGuard. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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