Guest guest Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 " Because I believe in personal liberty, I think people should have the right to end their life, if they so choose. But it is truly moronic and insane that so many people don't realize that their condition may be totally curable. " Mark, I agree that it's not a moronic discussion. OT maybe, but worth having, imo. I don't agree with your position on this initiative, however. You can't desire personal liberty for yourself but take away choices for others. You choose to live healthfully but others choose not to. We could try legislating personal responsibility (right now we're doing the opposite -- rewarding mistakes, like the recent bailout), but I'm not sure it would work. People have to realize on their own that they are best served by living healthfully. In the meantime, we must have the guts to allow them their choices, even if it means they will suffer, and we will suffer right along with them. If I could wave a magic wand and have everyone understand what they need to do to rid their bodies of disease, I'd do that. I spend every minute I can trying to educate people, some of whom don't even want to be educated. Most people are so convinced that disease is inevitable that nothing will ever help them see the truth. We have to deal with reality, where there are powerful industries convincing people that they are victims of disease and secondary benefits and other complications that make being sick an attractive option for some. There are also economic realities to face -- our resources in dealing with sick people are limited and tough choices have to be made. It's not fair for otherwise healthy victims of traumatic injury to go untreated, for example, because our resources are being stretched to care for terminal people who don't even want to live. We're not quite to that point yet, but it's not unrealistic to think it won't come to that. Suicide is always an option for an able-bodied person, regardless of what the law says. It is only the rights of the infirm that we are taking away with our laws as they presently exist. Those who oppose this initiative are still thinking of people as victims. Maybe they are, but they are victims of their own choices and we can't force them to make different ones. Early death, hastened by suicide or not, is just one more consequence of those choices. I would also be interested to find out more about Viktoras Kulvinska's wife's death. Thanks much, Nora Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 Hi Nora, No, I'm not against the initiative. I completely agree with you here, as I usually do. I haven't actually read the initiative yet, but in principle, as I said, I think people should have the right to end their life. And they should make arrangements to have their mess cleaned up without my tax dollars. Mark _____ On Behalf Of Nora Lenz Friday, October 31, 2008 11:17 AM Re: OT.Re: Death with Dignity " Because I believe in personal liberty, I think people should have the right to end their life, if they so choose. But it is truly moronic and insane that so many people don't realize that their condition may be totally curable. " Mark, I agree that it's not a moronic discussion. OT maybe, but worth having, imo. I don't agree with your position on this initiative, however. You can't desire personal liberty for yourself but take away choices for others. You choose to live healthfully but others choose not to. We could try legislating personal responsibility (right now we're doing the opposite -- rewarding mistakes, like the recent bailout), but I'm not sure it would work. People have to realize on their own that they are best served by living healthfully. In the meantime, we must have the guts to allow them their choices, even if it means they will suffer, and we will suffer right along with them. If I could wave a magic wand and have everyone understand what they need to do to rid their bodies of disease, I'd do that. I spend every minute I can trying to educate people, some of whom don't even want to be educated. Most people are so convinced that disease is inevitable that nothing will ever help them see the truth. We have to deal with reality, where there are powerful industries convincing people that they are victims of disease and secondary benefits and other complications that make being sick an attractive option for some. There are also economic realities to face -- our resources in dealing with sick people are limited and tough choices have to be made. It's not fair for otherwise healthy victims of traumatic injury to go untreated, for example, because our resources are being stretched to care for terminal people who don't even want to live. We're not quite to that point yet, but it's not unrealistic to think it won't come to that. Suicide is always an option for an able-bodied person, regardless of what the law says. It is only the rights of the infirm that we are taking away with our laws as they presently exist. Those who oppose this initiative are still thinking of people as victims. Maybe they are, but they are victims of their own choices and we can't force them to make different ones. Early death, hastened by suicide or not, is just one more consequence of those choices. I would also be interested to find out more about Viktoras Kulvinska's wife's death. Thanks much, Nora Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 " And they should make arrangements to have their mess cleaned up without my tax dollars. " Amen. Thanks for clarifying, Mark. Nora Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 > Sick people NEED hope! I have found that one first must persuade a person that they can live prior to any method of healing. ----- If I were going to die anyway, but only after more pain, emotional suffering and anguish, I would be inclined to punch anyone who said I just needed hope. Doh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 I-1000 creates a NEW choice that doesn't exist now. Personal responsibilty is ALREADY legislated! Driving laws, no murder, etc. Letting people die does NOT forward our beliefs! We NEED to provide hope and healing! Sick people NEED hope! I have found that one first must persuade a person that they can live prior to any method of healing. On Behalf Of Nora Lenz Friday, October 31, 2008 10:17 AM Re: OT.Re: Death with Dignity " Because I believe in personal liberty, I think people should have the right to end their life, if they so choose. But it is truly moronic and insane that so many people don't realize that their condition may be totally curable. " Mark, I agree that it's not a moronic discussion. OT maybe, but worth having, imo. I don't agree with your position on this initiative, however. You can't desire personal liberty for yourself but take away choices for others. You choose to live healthfully but others choose not to. We could try legislating personal responsibility (right now we're doing the opposite -- rewarding mistakes, like the recent bailout), but I'm not sure it would work. People have to realize on their own that they are best served by living healthfully. In the meantime, we must have the guts to allow them their choices, even if it means they will suffer, and we will suffer right along with them. If I could wave a magic wand and have everyone understand what they need to do to rid their bodies of disease, I'd do that. I spend every minute I can trying to educate people, some of whom don't even want to be educated. Most people are so convinced that disease is inevitable that nothing will ever help them see the truth. We have to deal with reality, where there are powerful industries convincing people that they are victims of disease and secondary benefits and other complications that make being sick an attractive option for some. There are also economic realities to face -- our resources in dealing with sick people are limited and tough choices have to be made. It's not fair for otherwise healthy victims of traumatic injury to go untreated, for example, because our resources are being stretched to care for terminal people who don't even want to live. We're not quite to that point yet, but it's not unrealistic to think it won't come to that. Suicide is always an option for an able-bodied person, regardless of what the law says. It is only the rights of the infirm that we are taking away with our laws as they presently exist. Those who oppose this initiative are still thinking of people as victims. Maybe they are, but they are victims of their own choices and we can't force them to make different ones. Early death, hastened by suicide or not, is just one more consequence of those choices. I would also be interested to find out more about Viktoras Kulvinska's wife's death. Thanks much, Nora Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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