vitamin B deficency

[Guest guest]

Thank you for the information. It is very helpful!

Michelle

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

mdlvseattle

vitamin B deficency

 

> Hello, I think I remember reading some posts over the last few years

regarding vegan diet and

> Vitamin B deficiency. I've been a raw vegan for about 3 years and

think I may be becoming

> deficient (recently had a blood test that indicated elevated

homocysteine levels).

 

 

Hi Michelle,

 

I have a nutrition background, have been vegan for 7 years, and at one

point had a B12 deficiency, so I have some thoughts on this. :-) If you

would like to email me directly, feel free:

manager

 

Doh

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

 

Well, I quickly received 6 off-list requests for my b12 thoughts, so I

will share them on the list. Sorry it's taken me a week to make time

for this post - hopefully no one went anemic waiting for me. :-D

 

Please know that I respect other people's opinions and experiences

around b12. I have been known to disagree with vegans and raw foodists

on this but my goal is to spread what I believe to be grounded nutrition

information so that we can all live healthy lives without animal

cruelty. There is a lot of dangerous misinformation about B12.

 

B12 is a coenzyme (which means that enzymes need b12 to do their jobs).

And b12 is needed for EVERY function of the body, so a b12 deficiency

can show up in many different ways, and/or along a spectrum of severity.

The deficiency symptoms we usually think of - neurologic or anemia - are

only advanced cases. So a spectrum of neurologic sypmtoms might begin

with a slight tremble, or an occasional tingling sensation, long before

it advances to the symptoms we think of. And there may be symptoms that

are not obviously b12 related, but because the enzymes are lacking their

friendly cohort, they may actually be caused by a lack of b12.

Furthermore, some diseases caused by B12 deficiency (pregnancy

complications, heart disease) won't show up at all until advanced stages

have set in.

 

B12 is bacterial " waste " product, not made by plants. Nutritional

yeast, for example, is a strain of yeast grown specifically because it

takes up the B12 of its growing medium, not because the yeast itself

makes it. Fermented foods create b12. [Nutritional yeast is not a raw

food, but is very commonly used in vegan recipes, so whether or not you

eat it will impact your ability to get b12 from your diet.]

 

A common misconception (that I, unfortunately, spread for years) is that

we can - or some say, used to - get it from microorganisms in the dirt,

with our soil-grown food as the vehicle, and that modern agriculture has

robbed us of a reliable source of bacteria.

 

The truth is that even unwashed plants grown organically do not contain

significant amounts of B12. Some plants can take up B12 via their

roots, but only if b12 is *added to the soil.*

 

Another area of misunderstanding is that our intestinal flora make b12.

There are 400+ strains of bacteria in our colon and we do not know which

of them produce b12 and we do not know which individuals have which

strains. In addition to not knowing if our personal bacteria makes much

b12, we *do* know that absorption of b12 can only happen " upstream "

(small intestine) of where the b12 is produced (large intestine, or

colon). In other words, we are physically incapable of absorbing the

b12 that we're making.

When we eat B12 (whether from vitamins or fortified foods, or from

fermented foods) it is delivered from the stomach to the small intestine

by Intrinsic Factor.

 

I thought I knew enough about nutrition to be safe from deficiency, but

y'know the saying, " a little knowledge can be dangerous " ? There is

really no way to tell from how you feel today, or even in 10 years, if

you're deficient, or when your pre-vegan stores of b12 will run out.

There are many factors that are individual and impossible to know:

~ the quantity Intrinsic Factor and enzymes your body makes (IF

decreases as we age, too);

~ symptoms can be mild, or seemingly unrelated, or look like something

else;

~ each individual's ability to absorb b12 from your bile ( " enterohepatic

circulation " );

~ there may be no symptoms until a serious health problem arises, such

as heart disease or pregnancy complications.

 

Specific to raw food diets:

http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/raw

 

So, that's my B12 knowledge in a nutshell. I accidentally deleted the

first post and so I may not have answered the specific question, but the

upshot of it is that most people who study this topic in depth do not

believe you can get enough b12 in your diet to be at optimum health,

even if you feel fine and have felt fine for years.

 

Feel free to contact me off list if I've missed some of your questions.

Doh

[Guest guest]

If fermented foods produce B12, then can't raw vegans simply eat lots of

things like raw sauerkraut?

 

 

Judy Pokras

vegwriter

 

http://Green-Advertising.blogspot.com

Specializing in promoting raw vegan

and other green businesses.

 

Editor/founder/publisher

Raw Foods News Magazine

www.rawfoodsnewsmagazine.com

An online magazine celebrating raw vegan cuisine since March 2001, and

featuring authoritative info, breaking news, and fun interactive features on

the raw vegan lifestyle. Have you signed up for our free e-newsletter?

 

STOP GLOBAL WARMING GO VEGAN bumper sticker:

http://www.cafepress.com/rawfoods.86920766

 

 

On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 6:10 PM, Sidecar Manager <

manager wrote:

 

> Hi all,

>

> Well, I quickly received 6 off-list requests for my b12 thoughts, so I

> will share them on the list. Sorry it's taken me a week to make time

> for this post - hopefully no one went anemic waiting for me. :-D

>

> Please know that I respect other people's opinions and experiences

> around b12. I have been known to disagree with vegans and raw foodists

> on this but my goal is to spread what I believe to be grounded nutrition

> information so that we can all live healthy lives without animal

> cruelty. There is a lot of dangerous misinformation about B12.

>

> B12 is a coenzyme (which means that enzymes need b12 to do their jobs).

> And b12 is needed for EVERY function of the body, so a b12 deficiency

> can show up in many different ways, and/or along a spectrum of severity.

> The deficiency symptoms we usually think of - neurologic or anemia - are

> only advanced cases. So a spectrum of neurologic sypmtoms might begin

> with a slight tremble, or an occasional tingling sensation, long before

> it advances to the symptoms we think of. And there may be symptoms that

> are not obviously b12 related, but because the enzymes are lacking their

> friendly cohort, they may actually be caused by a lack of b12.

> Furthermore, some diseases caused by B12 deficiency (pregnancy

> complications, heart disease) won't show up at all until advanced stages

> have set in.

>

> B12 is bacterial " waste " product, not made by plants. Nutritional

> yeast, for example, is a strain of yeast grown specifically because it

> takes up the B12 of its growing medium, not because the yeast itself

> makes it. Fermented foods create b12. [Nutritional yeast is not a raw

> food, but is very commonly used in vegan recipes, so whether or not you

> eat it will impact your ability to get b12 from your diet.]

>

> A common misconception (that I, unfortunately, spread for years) is that

> we can - or some say, used to - get it from microorganisms in the dirt,

> with our soil-grown food as the vehicle, and that modern agriculture has

> robbed us of a reliable source of bacteria.

>

> The truth is that even unwashed plants grown organically do not contain

> significant amounts of B12. Some plants can take up B12 via their

> roots, but only if b12 is *added to the soil.*

>

> Another area of misunderstanding is that our intestinal flora make b12.

> There are 400+ strains of bacteria in our colon and we do not know which

> of them produce b12 and we do not know which individuals have which

> strains. In addition to not knowing if our personal bacteria makes much

> b12, we *do* know that absorption of b12 can only happen " upstream "

> (small intestine) of where the b12 is produced (large intestine, or

> colon). In other words, we are physically incapable of absorbing the

> b12 that we're making.

> When we eat B12 (whether from vitamins or fortified foods, or from

> fermented foods) it is delivered from the stomach to the small intestine

> by Intrinsic Factor.

>

> I thought I knew enough about nutrition to be safe from deficiency, but

> y'know the saying, " a little knowledge can be dangerous " ? There is

> really no way to tell from how you feel today, or even in 10 years, if

> you're deficient, or when your pre-vegan stores of b12 will run out.

> There are many factors that are individual and impossible to know:

> ~ the quantity Intrinsic Factor and enzymes your body makes (IF

> decreases as we age, too);

> ~ symptoms can be mild, or seemingly unrelated, or look like something

> else;

> ~ each individual's ability to absorb b12 from your bile ( " enterohepatic

> circulation " );

> ~ there may be no symptoms until a serious health problem arises, such

> as heart disease or pregnancy complications.

>

> Specific to raw food diets:

> http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/raw

>

> So, that's my B12 knowledge in a nutshell. I accidentally deleted the

> first post and so I may not have answered the specific question, but the

> upshot of it is that most people who study this topic in depth do not

> believe you can get enough b12 in your diet to be at optimum health,

> even if you feel fine and have felt fine for years.

>

> Feel free to contact me off list if I've missed some of your questions.

> Doh

>

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

> Judy Pokras

 

 

> If fermented foods produce B12, then can't raw vegans simply eat lots

of things like raw sauerkraut?

 

 

In *theory* it might be possible. In real life, the study that was done

on raw vegans who consumed a " large intake of bacterially fermented

foods " show that, in practice, one cannot eat enough to prevent

deficiency of B12.

 

The link I gave yesterday includes this section:

 

------

Living Food Eaters in Finland

 

Rauma et al.2 (1995, Finland) examined the B12 status in long-term

adherents of a strict, uncooked (raw) vegan diet called the " living food

diet. " They assumed their large intake of bacterially fermented foods

(about 2 kg/day in this study) would provide plenty of B12 as well as

modify their intestinal bacteria to provide more B12.

 

In Part 1 of the study, food consumption data were collected and blood

samples were taken from 9 vegan " living food eaters " (LFE) (1 male, 8

females), 2 years apart. Six of the 9 vegans showed slow, consistent

deterioration of B12 status over this period, indicating that the supply

of B12 from the " living food diet " was inadequate to maintain the sB12.

-------

 

Doh

[Guest guest]

This is an interesting topic for me. What about herbivores? Apes? Do

they need B12 and if so, where do they get it?

 

 

Humorous aside: hmm... dirt, right? And that's the ultimate answer to

why children eat dirt--they're trying to get there B12

 

 

On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 10:59 AM, Sidecar Manager

<manager wrote:

>> If fermented foods produce B12, then can't raw vegans simply eat lots

> of things like raw sauerkraut?

>

> In *theory* it might be possible. In real life, the study that was done

> on raw vegans who consumed a " large intake of bacterially fermented

> foods " show that, in practice, one cannot eat enough to prevent

> deficiency of B12.

[Guest guest]

 

> joel

 

> This is an interesting topic for me. What about herbivores? Apes? Do

they need B12 and if so, where do they get it?

 

Re: apes, from

http://www.vegsource.com/articles/walsh_byrnes_b12_print.htm

" Most large wild primates consume minimal amounts of meat (insufficient

to provide a human with B12) yet have blood B12 levels similar to

non-vegetarian humans. Some primates eat faeces, some deliberately eat

insects and all consume remnants of insects incidentally with the

fruits, leaves and shoots which form the bulk of the diet of our great

ape relatives. All get their B12 from bacteria. "

And from: http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/animal

" Ruminants

 

Cows are ruminants (as are bison, buffalo, goats, antelopes, sheep,

deer, and giraffes).1 Ruminants have a four-chambered stomach and a rich

supply of bacteria in their rumen (the first chamber that their food

enters).1 Some of these bacteria produce B12 in amounts normally

sufficient to meet their needs.2

 

Primates

 

Non-human primates typically eat small amounts of eggs, insects, and

small vertebrates and/or soil.3,4 Gorillas, possibly the closest to

vegan of all the species closely related to humans, eat insects,3,4 and

sometimes feces.5

 

Other Herbivores

 

Horses, elephants, zebras, rabbits, hares, and many rodents have large

cecums in their digestive tracts, located between the small and large

intestine,1 where bacterial fermentation takes place. Some sources say

that all non-ruminant herbivores require some B12 fortification of their

feeds,2 but at least one source says that bacteria in a horse's

digestive tract are able to produce enough B12 to prevent a dietary

need.6

 

Many wild herbivores, such as elephants,7 inadvertently ingest soil on a

regular basis. Hares, rabbits, and some rodents eat their fecal pellets,

which provide an opportunity to obtain vitamins produced by bacteria in

their digestive tracts.1 "

 

 

 

> Humorous aside: hmm... dirt, right? And that's the ultimate answer to

why children eat dirt--they're trying to get there B12

 

Hah! I remember my little sister convincing my little brother to eat a

spoonful of dirt... My son eating dirt from the houseplants...

Doh