Oral Health: When Enough Is Too Much (WAS: Tooth problems)

[Guest guest]

Hi Emily,

 

Yes, thanks, this is much more detail.

 

First, yes, mangoes are definitely subacid fruits, not sweet.

 

Second, the one tweak to your diet would be to cut the nuts and seeds

entirely for awhile. These are very hard, obviously, and that hardness comes

from very rigid, indigestible fiber cells that are basically tiny, sharp

little sticks. These remain intact through the entire digestive system and

can irritate the delicate membrane lining of the alimentary canal (digestive

tube). This is particularly so when irritation is already present.

 

FWIW, fluoride has nothing constructive to do with oral health, never has

and never will (regardless of industry-sponsored " studies " to the contrary).

Where fluoride IS useful (in a manner of speaking) is in shutting down that

portion of the mind that engages in independently motivated behavior. That's

why fluoride was fed to German prisoners of war in Russia during WW II ...

to minimize the risk that they would rise up and try to escape. (We provided

the chemicals, of course.)

 

Third, you are likely correct, " vigorous " brushing is frequently one of the

first causes of gum irritation and of gum recession. In addition, your

regimen sounds like a chemistry lab to me. Would you be willing to chuck

100% of the brushing goo (paste, oil, silver, gold, schmold, whatever) and

just use the brush, dry? (Rinse with water to your comfort.) Make sure it's

a SOFT brush, of course.

 

Fourth, I would point out that my suggestions all involve things to stop

doing. I'm not recommending that you do anything new, just stop doing a

bunch of stuff. That way, either:

 

1. Your mouth will be fine in a short time, or

 

2. Your mouth will exhibit some shift in symptoms, in which case we will

have more accurate information and be closer to the underlying problem.

Right now, there are so many possible irritants and abrasives, we cannot

really know.

 

Make sense?

 

Best regards,

Elchanan

_____

 

emilyc615 [emilyc615]615

Friday, March 13, 2009 9:45 PM

 

Re: Tooth problems

 

Ok, I'll try to give a few more details. My gum-lines are receding a bit,

and I think it's due to overly vigorous brushing as I don't have any of the

other symptoms of degenerative gum disease, but I can't be sure. I'm going

to try to see the dentist soon to confirm. In any case, I've always had

pretty good oral hygiene, brushing at least twice a day, but not flossing

like I should. I was depressed in the past, before becoming a raw fooder,

and I used to take prozac. (I've learned that it contains fluoride, and I

think I may even have a touch of dental fluorosis from childhood, judging by

some discoloration patterns on my teeth). I'll be turning 21 in June, so

obviously, I'm still pretty young. I've become much gentler with my oral

hygiene routine, but I still brush frequently. I switched to a clay-based

toothpaste-- nothing harsh, free of fluoride, containing ionic calcium and

magnesium, and relying on colloidal silver water, baking soda, and essential

oils to cleanse.

 

I try to follow the food-combining rules of natural hygiene. I eat sweet

fruits together or with sub-acid fruits, and acid fruits together or with

sub-acid fruits. The only sweet fruits I eat are bananas, unless you

classify mangoes as sweet, but I believe they're sub-acid. I eat greens

with just about any fruit. I'm trying to eat at least a head of lettuce or

bunch of greens a day, on top of the occasional handful of nuts and seeds,

but I've cut back on the fat and oils quite a lot. I mix other veggies in

as well, carrots, celery, cucumbers, sweet peppers, etc. I definitely eat a

lot of fruit. I don't spend much time planning my diet, and I realize that

I probably should, but I'm trying to be raw on a budget.

 

So I hope that helps a bit?

 

-Emily

 

 

, " Elchanan " <Elchanan wrote:

 

Emily,

 

As a broad generalization, Nora is correct, fruits do not, in and of

themselves, cause oral health problems.

 

Oral health typically accrues over a long time period ... what you did

decades ago, and even what your parents did, contributes to your oral health

today. Remember, a symptom today may be nothing more than your body's

attempt to clean up a mess from the past ... in which case there is nothing

at all to do. Or, it may be some long-term degenerative process. We don't

have sufficient information from you to make such a distinction.

 

What do you eat in addition to fruits (e.g., nuts, seeds, sprouted grains,

and the like)? And are you combining fruits, if so in what ways

(typically)?

 

Emotions can also influence oral health, sometimes quite significantly. If

you pause and reflect back of the time period before and during your current

experience, what has happened in your life, in you?

 

Also, I disagree with Nora in one respect, namely, every aspect of our

health is indeed favorably influenced by incorporating greens on a regular

basis into one's dietary. Jeff has already shared a nice post describing

his own experience in this regard, and I can tell you that others, myself

included, have experienced the same. And ... I recognize that this is an

area of long-term disagreement with Nora, we just hold different perceptions

in the matter.

 

Best regards, Elchanan

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Elchanan,

 

Yes, I've been aware of the dangers of fluoride for a long time. I try to spread

the word about that as much as I can. Also, I was describing the

commercially-bought toothpaste-- It comes like that, I don't make it, just to be

sure. It's kind of like brushing with minty mud, but I will discontinue it for a

while.

 

I'm going to try the 80/10/10 diet for as long as it's financially reasonable. I

was thinking of using hemp seeds on occasion and maybe a little tahini. Is there

any way this could cause further problems with my gums?

 

Thank you for all your help!!

 

-Emily

 

, " Elchanan " <Elchanan wrote:

>

> Hi Emily,

>

> Yes, thanks, this is much more detail.

>

> First, yes, mangoes are definitely subacid fruits, not sweet.

>

> Second, the one tweak to your diet would be to cut the nuts and seeds

> entirely for awhile. These are very hard, obviously, and that hardness comes

> from very rigid, indigestible fiber cells that are basically tiny, sharp

> little sticks. These remain intact through the entire digestive system and

> can irritate the delicate membrane lining of the alimentary canal (digestive

> tube). This is particularly so when irritation is already present.

>

> FWIW, fluoride has nothing constructive to do with oral health, never has

> and never will (regardless of industry-sponsored " studies " to the contrary).

> Where fluoride IS useful (in a manner of speaking) is in shutting down that

> portion of the mind that engages in independently motivated behavior. That's

> why fluoride was fed to German prisoners of war in Russia during WW II ...

> to minimize the risk that they would rise up and try to escape. (We provided

> the chemicals, of course.)

>

> Third, you are likely correct, " vigorous " brushing is frequently one of the

> first causes of gum irritation and of gum recession. In addition, your

> regimen sounds like a chemistry lab to me. Would you be willing to chuck

> 100% of the brushing goo (paste, oil, silver, gold, schmold, whatever) and

> just use the brush, dry? (Rinse with water to your comfort.) Make sure it's

> a SOFT brush, of course.

>

> Fourth, I would point out that my suggestions all involve things to stop

> doing. I'm not recommending that you do anything new, just stop doing a

> bunch of stuff. That way, either:

>

> 1. Your mouth will be fine in a short time, or

>

> 2. Your mouth will exhibit some shift in symptoms, in which case we will

> have more accurate information and be closer to the underlying problem.

> Right now, there are so many possible irritants and abrasives, we cannot

> really know.

>

> Make sense?

>

> Best regards,

> Elchanan

> _____

>

> emilyc615 [emilyc615]615

> Friday, March 13, 2009 9:45 PM

>

> Re: Tooth problems

>

> Ok, I'll try to give a few more details. My gum-lines are receding a bit,

> and I think it's due to overly vigorous brushing as I don't have any of the

> other symptoms of degenerative gum disease, but I can't be sure. I'm going

> to try to see the dentist soon to confirm. In any case, I've always had

> pretty good oral hygiene, brushing at least twice a day, but not flossing

> like I should. I was depressed in the past, before becoming a raw fooder,

> and I used to take prozac. (I've learned that it contains fluoride, and I

> think I may even have a touch of dental fluorosis from childhood, judging by

> some discoloration patterns on my teeth). I'll be turning 21 in June, so

> obviously, I'm still pretty young. I've become much gentler with my oral

> hygiene routine, but I still brush frequently. I switched to a clay-based

> toothpaste-- nothing harsh, free of fluoride, containing ionic calcium and

> magnesium, and relying on colloidal silver water, baking soda, and essential

> oils to cleanse.

>

> I try to follow the food-combining rules of natural hygiene. I eat sweet

> fruits together or with sub-acid fruits, and acid fruits together or with

> sub-acid fruits. The only sweet fruits I eat are bananas, unless you

> classify mangoes as sweet, but I believe they're sub-acid. I eat greens

> with just about any fruit. I'm trying to eat at least a head of lettuce or

> bunch of greens a day, on top of the occasional handful of nuts and seeds,

> but I've cut back on the fat and oils quite a lot. I mix other veggies in

> as well, carrots, celery, cucumbers, sweet peppers, etc. I definitely eat a

> lot of fruit. I don't spend much time planning my diet, and I realize that

> I probably should, but I'm trying to be raw on a budget.

>

> So I hope that helps a bit?

>

> -Emily

>

>

> , " Elchanan " <Elchanan@> wrote:

>

> Emily,

>

> As a broad generalization, Nora is correct, fruits do not, in and of

> themselves, cause oral health problems.

>

> Oral health typically accrues over a long time period ... what you did

> decades ago, and even what your parents did, contributes to your oral health

> today. Remember, a symptom today may be nothing more than your body's

> attempt to clean up a mess from the past ... in which case there is nothing

> at all to do. Or, it may be some long-term degenerative process. We don't

> have sufficient information from you to make such a distinction.

>

> What do you eat in addition to fruits (e.g., nuts, seeds, sprouted grains,

> and the like)? And are you combining fruits, if so in what ways

> (typically)?

>

> Emotions can also influence oral health, sometimes quite significantly. If

> you pause and reflect back of the time period before and during your current

> experience, what has happened in your life, in you?

>

> Also, I disagree with Nora in one respect, namely, every aspect of our

> health is indeed favorably influenced by incorporating greens on a regular

> basis into one's dietary. Jeff has already shared a nice post describing

> his own experience in this regard, and I can tell you that others, myself

> included, have experienced the same. And ... I recognize that this is an

> area of long-term disagreement with Nora, we just hold different perceptions

> in the matter.

>

> Best regards, Elchanan

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Emily,

 

May I take the liberty of suggesting that you first learn what 80/10/10 is

all about? For example, do you have Doug's book?

 

Best,

Elchanan

_____

 

emilyc615

Sunday, March 15, 2009 4:24 PM

 

Re: Oral Health: When " Enough " Is Too Much (WAS:

Tooth problems)

 

Hi Elchanan,

 

Yes, I've been aware of the dangers of fluoride for a long time. I try to

spread the word about that as much as I can. Also, I was describing the

commercially-bought toothpaste-- It comes like that, I don't make it, just

to be sure. It's kind of like brushing with minty mud, but I will

discontinue it for a while.

 

I'm going to try the 80/10/10 diet for as long as it's financially

reasonable. I was thinking of using hemp seeds on occasion and maybe a

little tahini. Is there any way this could cause further problems with my

gums?

 

Thank you for all your help!!

 

-Emily

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Emily,

 

I am new to this list, and I couldn't help but notice that most of the advice

you are getting about your teeth is from folks that are of the natural hygiene

persuasion. While Natural Hygiene (i.e., 80/10/10) has appeal from a

philosophical and nature-based perspective, I encourage you to be discerning

about who you listen to.

 

I have been a raw foodist for 13 years. I've worked at Gabriel Cousins'

treeoflife.nu. Raised money for Living Light Culinary Arts Institute on the

www.rawhike.com. In other words, I've been around the raw world for a while.

 

From everything I've experienced and come to understand, I believe that

something like an 80/10/10 diet will cause most people to crash and burn over

time, and your teeth will go down with you. I encourage you to read Gabriel

Cousins' " Rainbow Green Live Food Cuisine " . Here you will find information on

the importance of low glycemic carbohydrates. The intense sugars of our

over-hybrized fruit will feed pathogens that produce metabolic byproducts which

acidify the body over time, leading to tooth decay as the body attempts to

neutralize acidity by leaching calcium form teeth.

 

Also, I recommend Gabriel COusins' " Conscious Eating " . Here you will learn how

to individualize your diet to your metabolic type. This is crucial. Some folks

are Carbohydrate types and can do well on a high carb diet. These are the Doug

Grahams of the world. Problem is they think everyone will do well on what works

for them. If you are a protein type, which many people are, an 80/10/10 diet

will be a disaster for you.

 

Unfortunately, or fortunately from my perspective, everyone is different. It is

wise to find out what you unique metabolic physiology requires and meet your

body where it is at.

 

All the best on your journey, doug

[Guest guest]

Yes, I have read the book and own it.

 

-Emily

 

, " Elchanan " <Elchanan wrote:

>

> Emily,

>

> May I take the liberty of suggesting that you first learn what 80/10/10 is

> all about? For example, do you have Doug's book?

>

> Best,

> Elchanan

> _____

>

> emilyc615

> Sunday, March 15, 2009 4:24 PM

>

> Re: Oral Health: When " Enough " Is Too Much (WAS:

> Tooth problems)

>

> Hi Elchanan,

>

> Yes, I've been aware of the dangers of fluoride for a long time. I try to

> spread the word about that as much as I can. Also, I was describing the

> commercially-bought toothpaste-- It comes like that, I don't make it, just

> to be sure. It's kind of like brushing with minty mud, but I will

> discontinue it for a while.

>

> I'm going to try the 80/10/10 diet for as long as it's financially

> reasonable. I was thinking of using hemp seeds on occasion and maybe a

> little tahini. Is there any way this could cause further problems with my

> gums?

>

> Thank you for all your help!!

>

> -Emily

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Cousens' books are next on my list. 80/10/10 is temporary for me-- I should

have emphasized that.

 

-Emily

 

, " dougwalsh64 " <dougwalsh64 wrote:

>

> Emily,

>

> I am new to this list, and I couldn't help but notice that most of the advice

you are getting about your teeth is from folks that are of the natural hygiene

persuasion. While Natural Hygiene (i.e., 80/10/10) has appeal from a

philosophical and nature-based perspective, I encourage you to be discerning

about who you listen to.

>

> I have been a raw foodist for 13 years. I've worked at Gabriel Cousins'

treeoflife.nu. Raised money for Living Light Culinary Arts Institute on the

www.rawhike.com. In other words, I've been around the raw world for a while.

>

> From everything I've experienced and come to understand, I believe that

something like an 80/10/10 diet will cause most people to crash and burn over

time, and your teeth will go down with you. I encourage you to read Gabriel

Cousins' " Rainbow Green Live Food Cuisine " . Here you will find information on

the importance of low glycemic carbohydrates. The intense sugars of our

over-hybrized fruit will feed pathogens that produce metabolic byproducts which

acidify the body over time, leading to tooth decay as the body attempts to

neutralize acidity by leaching calcium form teeth.

>

> Also, I recommend Gabriel COusins' " Conscious Eating " . Here you will learn

how to individualize your diet to your metabolic type. This is crucial. Some

folks are Carbohydrate types and can do well on a high carb diet. These are the

Doug Grahams of the world. Problem is they think everyone will do well on what

works for them. If you are a protein type, which many people are, an 80/10/10

diet will be a disaster for you.

>

> Unfortunately, or fortunately from my perspective, everyone is different. It

is wise to find out what you unique metabolic physiology requires and meet your

body where it is at.

>

> All the best on your journey, doug

>

[Guest guest]

I should clarify WHY I am committing kind of a 180 testing 80/10/10 for a short

time (a month at most). At the moment, I do not have the money to buy large

amounts of nuts and superfoods, nor have I had opportunity to read every book on

the subject of raw food. I'm working on it. I've been feeling really bogged-down

of late for many reasons (one of which may be carelessness with my diet, also

due to money and stress....it's a never-ending cycle. I'm trying to break it.)

and am attempting to clean up my diet in a way that will provide enough calories

without causing me to go bankrupt. Of course, a good option is to buy in bulk.

As it is, I just can't afford to buy more than small amounts at one time if I

want not to starve.

 

The raw food diet is proving to be financially unsustainable, even for someone

who lives as modestly as I do (I buy luxury items maybe once a year and spend

more money on food than anything else).

 

Finding a balance is the tough part. I'm fully aware that most raw food diets

are flawed in some way and a lot of trial and error is involved.

 

-Emily

 

, " emilyc615 " <emilyc615 wrote:

>

> Cousens' books are next on my list. 80/10/10 is temporary for me-- I should

have emphasized that.

>

> -Emily

>

> , " dougwalsh64 " <dougwalsh64@> wrote:

> >

> > Emily,

> >

> > I am new to this list, and I couldn't help but notice that most of the

advice you are getting about your teeth is from folks that are of the natural

hygiene persuasion. While Natural Hygiene (i.e., 80/10/10) has appeal from a

philosophical and nature-based perspective, I encourage you to be discerning

about who you listen to.

> >

> > I have been a raw foodist for 13 years. I've worked at Gabriel Cousins'

treeoflife.nu. Raised money for Living Light Culinary Arts Institute on the

www.rawhike.com. In other words, I've been around the raw world for a while.

> >

> > From everything I've experienced and come to understand, I believe that

something like an 80/10/10 diet will cause most people to crash and burn over

time, and your teeth will go down with you. I encourage you to read Gabriel

Cousins' " Rainbow Green Live Food Cuisine " . Here you will find information on

the importance of low glycemic carbohydrates. The intense sugars of our

over-hybrized fruit will feed pathogens that produce metabolic byproducts which

acidify the body over time, leading to tooth decay as the body attempts to

neutralize acidity by leaching calcium form teeth.

> >

> > Also, I recommend Gabriel COusins' " Conscious Eating " . Here you will learn

how to individualize your diet to your metabolic type. This is crucial. Some

folks are Carbohydrate types and can do well on a high carb diet. These are the

Doug Grahams of the world. Problem is they think everyone will do well on what

works for them. If you are a protein type, which many people are, an 80/10/10

diet will be a disaster for you.

> >

> > Unfortunately, or fortunately from my perspective, everyone is different.

It is wise to find out what you unique metabolic physiology requires and meet

your body where it is at.

> >

> > All the best on your journey, doug

> >

>

[Guest guest]

On 3/16/09, emilyc615 <emilyc615 wrote:

>

> The raw food diet is proving to be financially unsustainable,

> even for someone who lives as modestly as I do (I buy luxury

> items maybe once a year and spend more money on food than

> anything else).

 

Give it time and continue experimenting to see what fits both your

health needs and budget needs. I am currently living on a severely

limited fixed income (SSI disability and student loans as I am taking

care of my disabled husband and going to graduate school) and it was

desperately difficult for me when I first went raw because my grocery

bill soared into the stratosphere. With time, patience, and

trial-and-error (heavy on the error side, I fear) I've gotten things

back in hand. It *can* be done. But it's really hard at first if you

don't have much money, I agree.

 

Sparrow

[Guest guest]

Hi, everybody!

 

> The raw food diet is proving to be financially unsustainable, even

> for someone who lives as modestly as I do (I buy luxury items maybe

> once a year and spend more money on food than anything else).

 

Emily --

 

This sustainability situation may be less of an issue for you in the

spring and summer, but if it isn't, you might find it helpful to tap

into groups in your area who practice gleaning. In Portland where I

live, there is a great wealth of fruit and nut trees that are not being

harvested and a resourceful neighbor or someone who was aware of the

gleaning networks could ease their budget tremendously by helping these

trees out at harvest time. There are issues of uncertainty regarding

organic status and it is always a good idea to look into the issue of

ownership, but it doesn't need to be as much of a hardship if one can

eat that food and has the time and energy to pursue it.

 

There are often organizations that collect this food and distribute it,

so even if you were not one with the time and energy to do so, it is

conceivable that you could benefit from such a group's labors.

 

There may also be opportunities to go co-operatively into a lower-cost

CSA with other people in your position. Striking up a relationship with

a farmer at a local farmers' market may be a better strategy... many

farmers have extra produce at the end of the market and the wise ones

would rather sell it than have to pay the fuel expense to lug it back

home for the compost pile. Many farmers also have produce that they

don't bring to market -- either because they don't think of it as food

(a farmer's weeds can be the raw foodist's staple food), or because it

isn't of the grade their customers will expect. If you get to know your

local farmers, they might bring you their culls for a reduced price, or

allow you to visit them on their farm to pick them up.

 

Returning to the local community idea, it's always possible that you

have a neighbor with a garden who doesn't have the time to fully tend

and harvest it. In exchange for a few hours a week, it's possible to get

access to a regular supply of very local food.

 

Finally, there are some non-organic plant crops that are less toxic than

others. I'm not well-educated on this topic, but there may be others on

this list who are. While we almost all strive for an entirely organic

diet, when we are struggling with the budget there may be certain

conventional fruits and vegetables that one might consider purchasing.

 

I need, myself, to put these ideas into practice in my own community, so

thanks for inspiring me to put the thoughts to electronic paper!

 

-Brion