Guest guest Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 , " Jim Casale-Health " <health wrote: > > Jim Fixx was a famous Marathon runner who died of a heart attack proving > that health & fitness have nothing to do with each other! I'm glad your > overall athletic performance is better than it ever was but that is not > proof that the 80/10/10 is the way to eat. Percentages don't matter. The > Genesis 1:29 eating plan is what was provided to us as the intended eating > plan. A good version of it is www.hacres.com Still looking forward to > meeting you in person! > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 , " yogamanom " <yogamanom wrote: > > , " Jim Casale-Health " <health@> wrote: > > > > Jim Fixx was a famous Marathon runner who died of a heart attack proving > > that health & fitness have nothing to do with each other! I'm glad your > > overall athletic performance is better than it ever was but that is not > > proof that the 80/10/10 is the way to eat. Percentages don't matter. The > > Genesis 1:29 eating plan is what was provided to us as the intended eating > > plan. A good version of it is www.hacres.com Still looking forward to > > meeting you in person! > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 Emily, I *guarantee* your problems were not caused by protein deficiency. In fact, it is almost certain that you didn't experience a deficiency of any kind. Excess, not deficiency, is what causes symptoms much more typically in transitioning raw fooders. And just from your brief description of your diet it's possible to see where mistakes were made, such as eating such a large volume of greens. You were no doubt inspired to do this by a fear of not getting enough protein. Perhaps it was this mistake that led to the symptom which you assumed was caused by protein deficiency, ironically. Contrary to popular opinion, it IS possible to eat too many greens. Now that you are convinced that you are deficient in protein, you will be making still other mistakes (such as consuming hemp milk and vegetables) that may cause other symptoms. All the while, the preoccupation with deficiency will have prevented you from figuring out what you were really doing wrong in the first place. Believe it or not, it's almost impossible to design even a relatively unhealthy transitional raw food diet that would warrant concerns about nutrient deficiency, especially protein deficiency. Dietary improvement is not hazardous to health! A great deal of progress can be made by raw fooders who look to correcting the excesses in their diets and lifestyles when they become symptomatic, rather than self diagnosing (or worse, seeking a professional diagnosis) deficiencies. Unfortunately, the latter is extremely common, and I've seen it derail many a transitioning raw fooder. Best wishes, Nora --\ ---- I agree that a low-fat diet is essential. However, I followed 80/10/10 for a few months and started to develop signs of protein deficiency, particularly brittle nails and hair. I was eating about three bunches of greens a day plus a tablespoon of vitamineral green in my smoothies. I've started to drink hemp milk (with just a little raw cacao) without straining the pulp after workouts and I've increased my vegetable intake as well. We shall see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 Nora, are you following 80/10/10? I wasn't fully accurate in my previous description. I was eating maybe a bunch of greens with some vitamineral green every day, and as much fruit as I wanted. There were several days that I ate only fruit, and I felt very...off... and ravenous on those days. My digestion slowed down to the point that I was having bowel movements every two or three days. That sounds a bit odd for such a high fiber diet, right? I've since increased everything else and I seem to be stabilizing, and my bowel movements are increasing. I don't think a fruitarian diet is right for me. It is difficult to describe the un-balance... the exhaustion and hunger. I feel much more satisfied when I have one or two green smoothies a day with a big salad of various veggies, some fruits for snacks, and a serving of hemp. This is more or less the daily eating plan described in " The Live Food Factor " . I think it's the most useful book on raw food that I've read. -Emily , " Nora Lenz " <nmlenz wrote: > > Emily, > I *guarantee* your problems were not caused by protein deficiency. In fact, > it is almost certain that you didn't experience a deficiency of any kind. > Excess, not deficiency, is what causes symptoms much more typically in > transitioning raw fooders. And just from your brief description of your > diet it's possible to see where mistakes were made, such as eating such a > large volume of greens. You were no doubt inspired to do this by a fear of > not getting enough protein. Perhaps it was this mistake that led to the > symptom which you assumed was caused by protein deficiency, ironically. > Contrary to popular opinion, it IS possible to eat too many greens. Now > that you are convinced that you are deficient in protein, you will be making > still other mistakes (such as consuming hemp milk and vegetables) that may > cause other symptoms. All the while, the preoccupation with deficiency will > have prevented you from figuring out what you were really doing wrong in the > first place. > > Believe it or not, it's almost impossible to design even a relatively > unhealthy transitional raw food diet that would warrant concerns about > nutrient deficiency, especially protein deficiency. Dietary improvement is > not hazardous to health! A great deal of progress can be made by raw > fooders who look to correcting the excesses in their diets and lifestyles > when they become symptomatic, rather than self diagnosing (or worse, seeking > a professional diagnosis) deficiencies. Unfortunately, the latter is > extremely common, and I've seen it derail many a transitioning raw fooder. > > Best wishes, > Nora > > > --\ ---- > > > I agree that a low-fat diet is essential. However, I followed 80/10/10 for a > few months and started to develop signs of protein deficiency, particularly > brittle nails and hair. I was eating about three bunches of greens a day > plus a tablespoon of vitamineral green in my smoothies. I've started to > drink hemp milk (with just a little raw cacao) without straining the pulp > after workouts and I've increased my vegetable intake as well. We shall see > what happens. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 Nora, are you following 80/10/10? **Not sure if this is relevant to the discussion but in any case I can't really answer yes or no. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It's not really a conscious goal of mine, anyway. I was eating maybe a bunch of greens with some vitamineral green every day **You said 3 bunches, but I won't nitpick. In any event, brittle hair and nails isn't the kind of symptom I'd go making major changes to alleviate. People who formerly ate high protein diets can have hair issues initially when going raw, because the cleansing of uric and other acids through the hair follicles causes hair to fall out. This is only one possible explanation that is a million times more likely than deficiency. You assumed you were deteriorating, but your body was actually rebuilding, and you stopped it. Don't worry, it will forgive you and begin again whenever you are ready. There were several days that I ate only fruit, and I felt very...off... and ravenous on those days **Feeling " off " and/or ravenous is completely normal and it doesn't mean you were doing anything wrong. If anything, you just rushed into low fat a bit too soon. I don't recommend 80/10/10 for beginners (loosely defined as anybody who's been high or all raw for less than 2-3 years, depending on a few other factors). It takes lots of time, healing and practice to get to a point where a person can eat only optimal foods. My digestion slowed down to the point that I was having bowel movements every two or three days. That sounds a bit odd for such a high fiber diet, right? **What you experienced was what a human colon does when it is abused for a long time and then is given a respite in the form of a diet centered around high-water, optimal foods. It was normal for your digestive system, given your past diet, etc. With the new foods in your diet, your bowel is having to completely re-adapt. Constipation is sometimes part of the process. It doesn't mean what you were doing at the time was wrong. What hurt you most was your fearful thinking, which is common among those who follow the advice of Dr. Fuhrman and others like him who are leaps and bounds ahead of their medical colleagues but who nevertheless misguide people by failing to discard their harmful medical teachings. Fear is the enemy! I feel much more satisfied when I have one or two green smoothies a day with a big salad of various veggies, some fruits for snacks, and a serving of hemp. **Staying satisfied while continuing to make forward progress is job #1 for transitioning raw fooders. Whatever you need to do to make that happen, as long as it represents improvement over what you did before, is what I define as success. As you do that, I highly recommend learning more about the way the body cleanses, heals and rebuilds, so you don't make incorrect assumptions about your symptoms. There is some good info here: www.RawFoodExplained.com. Best wishes, Nora Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 Emily, If you were eating 3 big bunches of greens a day, you were probably getting around 60 grams of protein from that alone. The USDA recommends 0.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight. A 150 pound person would, according to this guideline, need only 54 grams of protein daily. And let's not forget that the USDA is basically owned by the meat and dairy industries, so their recommendations are high. And because your protein was raw, not cooked, it was 100% useable by the body, unlike cooked protein, which I have read is only 50% useable or so. I think this fact is mentioned in The Live Food Factor. Nora's comments make a lot of sense to me. Mark Chiming in a bit, though I haven't been active lately. I agree that a low-fat diet is essential. However, I followed 80/10/10 for a few months and started to develop signs of protein deficiency, particularly brittle nails and hair. I was eating about three bunches of greens a day plus a tablespoon of vitamineral green in my smoothies. I've started to drink hemp milk (with just a little raw cacao) without straining the pulp after workouts and I've increased my vegetable intake as well. We shall see what happens. Before I went raw, I was following Dr. Joel Fuhrman's " Eat to Live " plan. He advocates at least a 50% raw diet and really emphasizes in his book that we need RAW fruits and vegetables to protect ourselves from diseases of affluence (cancer!). The book is a really easy, valuable lesson in nutrition, and also emphasizes a low, low, low fat diet; no more than once ounce of walnuts a day or a tablespoon of flax a day, and all fat should be heavy in omega-3's. I've started to re-read it due to these protein deficiency issues. It's a great reminder! -Emily Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 I amended/edited it-- One bunch of greens a day. 2-4 oz. of nuts and seeds along with ample amounts of greens is the recommendation in LFF. , " Mark Hovila " <hovila wrote: > > Emily, > > If you were eating 3 big bunches of greens a day, you were probably getting > around 60 grams of protein from that alone. The USDA recommends 0.8 grams > of protein per kilogram of body weight. A 150 pound person would, according > to this guideline, need only 54 grams of protein daily. And let's not > forget that the USDA is basically owned by the meat and dairy industries, so > their recommendations are high. > > And because your protein was raw, not cooked, it was 100% useable by the > body, unlike cooked protein, which I have read is only 50% useable or so. I > think this fact is mentioned in The Live Food Factor. > > Nora's comments make a lot of sense to me. > > Mark > > > Chiming in a bit, though I haven't been active lately. > > I agree that a low-fat diet is essential. However, I followed 80/10/10 for a > few months and started to develop signs of protein deficiency, particularly > brittle nails and hair. I was eating about three bunches of greens a day > plus a tablespoon of vitamineral green in my smoothies. I've started to > drink hemp milk (with just a little raw cacao) without straining the pulp > after workouts and I've increased my vegetable intake as well. We shall see > what happens. > > Before I went raw, I was following Dr. Joel Fuhrman's " Eat to Live " plan. He > advocates at least a 50% raw diet and really emphasizes in his book that we > need RAW fruits and vegetables to protect ourselves from diseases of > affluence (cancer!). The book is a really easy, valuable lesson in > nutrition, and also emphasizes a low, low, low fat diet; no more than once > ounce of walnuts a day or a tablespoon of flax a day, and all fat should be > heavy in omega-3's. I've started to re-read it due to these protein > deficiency issues. It's a great reminder! > > -Emily > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 How much could be too much greens? I really wonder if most of our jaws wouldn't be tired before that time. Sharon - Nora Lenz Sunday, June 07, 2009 5:17 PM Re: Re: Health and Fat Emily, I *guarantee* your problems were not caused by protein deficiency. In fact, it is almost certain that you didn't experience a deficiency of any kind. Excess, not deficiency, is what causes symptoms much more typically in transitioning raw fooders. And just from your brief description of your diet it's possible to see where mistakes were made, such as eating such a large volume of greens. You were no doubt inspired to do this by a fear of not getting enough protein. Perhaps it was this mistake that led to the symptom which you assumed was caused by protein deficiency, ironically. Contrary to popular opinion, it IS possible to eat too many greens. Now that you are convinced that you are deficient in protein, you will be making still other mistakes (such as consuming hemp milk and vegetables) that may cause other symptoms. All the while, the preoccupation with deficiency will have prevented you from figuring out what you were really doing wrong in the first place. Believe it or not, it's almost impossible to design even a relatively unhealthy transitional raw food diet that would warrant concerns about nutrient deficiency, especially protein deficiency. Dietary improvement is not hazardous to health! A great deal of progress can be made by raw fooders who look to correcting the excesses in their diets and lifestyles when they become symptomatic, rather than self diagnosing (or worse, seeking a professional diagnosis) deficiencies. Unfortunately, the latter is extremely common, and I've seen it derail many a transitioning raw fooder. Best wishes, Nora ------------------------- I agree that a low-fat diet is essential. However, I followed 80/10/10 for a few months and started to develop signs of protein deficiency, particularly brittle nails and hair. I was eating about three bunches of greens a day plus a tablespoon of vitamineral green in my smoothies. I've started to drink hemp milk (with just a little raw cacao) without straining the pulp after workouts and I've increased my vegetable intake as well. We shall see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 Hi Sharon, Yes, I don't think our jaws were meant to work that much! In addition, if the greens of choice are the denser varieties, they can easily overload the system with waste due to their high cellulose content. Eating inordinate quantities of greens is usually a sign that certain erroneous ideas (such as Emily's concern about protein) are driving the person's food choices instead of preference. It's important to learn how to let go of our modern tendency to analyze food and eat what appeals to our senses, like all other living creatures do. Plus eating so many greens tends to crowd out fruit, and since nobody eats greens unadorned it's usually an indication that the person is eating lots of condiments, vegetables, and/or fats, as well. Best wishes, Nora ------------------ > How much could be too much greens? I really wonder if most of our jaws > wouldn't be tired before that time. > Sharon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 Well an ounce of almonds has about 18 grams of protein, so that is about the same as a head of lettuce, 20 grams. So I don't see any protein deficiency in that diet. And remember, fruit has protein, too. Mark _____ On Behalf Of emilyc615 Monday, June 08, 2009 6:51 AM Re: Health and Fat I amended/edited it-- One bunch of greens a day. 2-4 oz. of nuts and seeds along with ample amounts of greens is the recommendation in LFF. @ <%40> , " Mark Hovila " <hovila wrote: > > Emily, > > If you were eating 3 big bunches of greens a day, you were probably getting > around 60 grams of protein from that alone. The USDA recommends 0.8 grams > of protein per kilogram of body weight. A 150 pound person would, according > to this guideline, need only 54 grams of protein daily. And let's not > forget that the USDA is basically owned by the meat and dairy industries, so > their recommendations are high. > > And because your protein was raw, not cooked, it was 100% useable by the > body, unlike cooked protein, which I have read is only 50% useable or so. I > think this fact is mentioned in The Live Food Factor. > > Nora's comments make a lot of sense to me. > > Mark > > > Chiming in a bit, though I haven't been active lately. > > I agree that a low-fat diet is essential. However, I followed 80/10/10 for a > few months and started to develop signs of protein deficiency, particularly > brittle nails and hair. I was eating about three bunches of greens a day > plus a tablespoon of vitamineral green in my smoothies. I've started to > drink hemp milk (with just a little raw cacao) without straining the pulp > after workouts and I've increased my vegetable intake as well. We shall see > what happens. > > Before I went raw, I was following Dr. Joel Fuhrman's " Eat to Live " plan. He > advocates at least a 50% raw diet and really emphasizes in his book that we > need RAW fruits and vegetables to protect ourselves from diseases of > affluence (cancer!). The book is a really easy, valuable lesson in > nutrition, and also emphasizes a low, low, low fat diet; no more than once > ounce of walnuts a day or a tablespoon of flax a day, and all fat should be > heavy in omega-3's. I've started to re-read it due to these protein > deficiency issues. It's a great reminder! > > -Emily > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Where are you getting your numbers? I've seen figures only as high as 10 grams protein for a head of lettuce, 6 grams for an ounce of almonds. There's 4 grams of protein in a serving of Vitamineral Green. , " Mark Hovila " <hovila wrote: > > Well an ounce of almonds has about 18 grams of protein, so that is about the > same as a head of lettuce, 20 grams. So I don't see any protein deficiency > in that diet. And remember, fruit has protein, too. > > > > Mark > > > > _____ > > > On Behalf Of emilyc615 > Monday, June 08, 2009 6:51 AM > > Re: Health and Fat > > I amended/edited it-- One bunch of greens a day. 2-4 oz. of nuts and seeds > along with ample amounts of greens is the recommendation in LFF. > > @ <%40> > , " Mark Hovila " <hovila@> wrote: > > > > Emily, > > > > If you were eating 3 big bunches of greens a day, you were probably > getting > > around 60 grams of protein from that alone. The USDA recommends 0.8 grams > > of protein per kilogram of body weight. A 150 pound person would, > according > > to this guideline, need only 54 grams of protein daily. And let's not > > forget that the USDA is basically owned by the meat and dairy industries, > so > > their recommendations are high. > > > > And because your protein was raw, not cooked, it was 100% useable by the > > body, unlike cooked protein, which I have read is only 50% useable or so. > I > > think this fact is mentioned in The Live Food Factor. > > > > Nora's comments make a lot of sense to me. > > > > Mark > > > > > > Chiming in a bit, though I haven't been active lately. > > > > I agree that a low-fat diet is essential. However, I followed 80/10/10 for > a > > few months and started to develop signs of protein deficiency, > particularly > > brittle nails and hair. I was eating about three bunches of greens a day > > plus a tablespoon of vitamineral green in my smoothies. I've started to > > drink hemp milk (with just a little raw cacao) without straining the pulp > > after workouts and I've increased my vegetable intake as well. We shall > see > > what happens. > > > > Before I went raw, I was following Dr. Joel Fuhrman's " Eat to Live " plan. > He > > advocates at least a 50% raw diet and really emphasizes in his book that > we > > need RAW fruits and vegetables to protect ourselves from diseases of > > affluence (cancer!). The book is a really easy, valuable lesson in > > nutrition, and also emphasizes a low, low, low fat diet; no more than once > > ounce of walnuts a day or a tablespoon of flax a day, and all fat should > be > > heavy in omega-3's. I've started to re-read it due to these protein > > deficiency issues. It's a great reminder! > > > > -Emily > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 Emily, Oops, thanks for asking. It must have been late when I posted that, because I was definitely high with those numbers. Generally I get them from Fitday or Nutridiary. I must have been looking at figures for a higher quantity than an ounce and a head. Sorry! But I stand by my overall point about protein deficiency. You may want to analyze all of your protein using one of those sites and see what you end up with at the end of the day, bearing in mind that you are getting higher utilization by eating raw. In any event, some people, such as Doug Graham, claim there is no such thing as protein deficiency in a whole food diet that provides sufficient calories. Mark _____ On Behalf Of emilyc615 Wednesday, June 10, 2009 6:22 PM Re: Health and Fat Where are you getting your numbers? I've seen figures only as high as 10 grams protein for a head of lettuce, 6 grams for an ounce of almonds. There's 4 grams of protein in a serving of Vitamineral Green. @ <%40> , " Mark Hovila " <hovila wrote: > > Well an ounce of almonds has about 18 grams of protein, so that is about the > same as a head of lettuce, 20 grams. So I don't see any protein deficiency > in that diet. And remember, fruit has protein, too. > > > > Mark > > > > _____ > > @ <%40> [@ <%40> ] > On Behalf Of emilyc615 > Monday, June 08, 2009 6:51 AM > @ <%40> > Re: Health and Fat > > I amended/edited it-- One bunch of greens a day. 2-4 oz. of nuts and seeds > along with ample amounts of greens is the recommendation in LFF. > > @ <%40> > , " Mark Hovila " <hovila@> wrote: > > > > Emily, > > > > If you were eating 3 big bunches of greens a day, you were probably > getting > > around 60 grams of protein from that alone. The USDA recommends 0.8 grams > > of protein per kilogram of body weight. A 150 pound person would, > according > > to this guideline, need only 54 grams of protein daily. And let's not > > forget that the USDA is basically owned by the meat and dairy industries, > so > > their recommendations are high. > > > > And because your protein was raw, not cooked, it was 100% useable by the > > body, unlike cooked protein, which I have read is only 50% useable or so. > I > > think this fact is mentioned in The Live Food Factor. > > > > Nora's comments make a lot of sense to me. > > > > Mark > > > > > > Chiming in a bit, though I haven't been active lately. > > > > I agree that a low-fat diet is essential. However, I followed 80/10/10 for > a > > few months and started to develop signs of protein deficiency, > particularly > > brittle nails and hair. I was eating about three bunches of greens a day > > plus a tablespoon of vitamineral green in my smoothies. I've started to > > drink hemp milk (with just a little raw cacao) without straining the pulp > > after workouts and I've increased my vegetable intake as well. We shall > see > > what happens. > > > > Before I went raw, I was following Dr. Joel Fuhrman's " Eat to Live " plan. > He > > advocates at least a 50% raw diet and really emphasizes in his book that > we > > need RAW fruits and vegetables to protect ourselves from diseases of > > affluence (cancer!). The book is a really easy, valuable lesson in > > nutrition, and also emphasizes a low, low, low fat diet; no more than once > > ounce of walnuts a day or a tablespoon of flax a day, and all fat should > be > > heavy in omega-3's. I've started to re-read it due to these protein > > deficiency issues. It's a great reminder! > > > > -Emily > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 Nora, What would you consider " too many greens " and what problems would that create? I'm thinking of doing some green cleansing and so far haven't found any information on limits. Lorri _____ > On Behalf Of Nora Lenz Sunday, June 07, 2009 5:18 PM Re: Re: Health and Fat >Contrary to popular opinion, it IS possible to eat too many greens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 Hi Lorri, I don't think you will find any upper limits published anywhere, lol. It is universally assumed that greens are such perfect, life-giving, " healing " foods that one can never consume too many! In reality, greens are not ideal human foods by any truly objective measure, especially considering that people typically eat them highly condimented and in complex combinations with other foods that are difficult to digest. This is only one of the problems associated with diets heavy on greens, in addition to the fact that they do not provide adequate fuel (sugar) and that people who are sold on greens as perfect foods usually make the mistake of eating the more cellulose-dense varieties. There is no food or nutritional supplement that cleanses the body. The body cleanses itself, and how much of that it will be able to do comes down to a simple equation, which is the same regardless of which types of foods are being evaluated as improvements or replacements for other foods that are currently part of the diet. If the new foods create less of a digestive burden than the old foods, more energy will be available for the discarding of stored wastes and toxins. Obviously the answer will be different for everyone. That's why although I will call greens 'less than ideal', I wouldn't go so far as to say that they are either good or bad. It's all relative. From this perspective, to entertain the question of how many/much greens would be " too much " would require knowing not only the quantity that will be eaten but also what kind of greens, how they'll be eaten/processed, what time of day, in what combinations, etc. The person's past and present eating habits would have to be considered as well. As I mentioned in my post before, it's not simply a matter of getting " too much " of whatever greens have to offer, it's a bit more complicated than that. Hope this is useful. Best wishes, Nora > Nora, > > What would you consider " too many greens " and what > problems would that create? I'm thinking of doing > some green cleansing and so far haven't found any > information on limits. > > Lorri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 Thanks Mark. I've read 80/10/10 and found it to be very interesting and informative, but the diet makes me feel very unbalanced and ravenous and causes candida issues. (I know Graham attributes that to too much fat in the diet, but I found that not to be the case for me.) There's an article called " True Fruitarianism " in The Live Food Factor and it includes a case study of a woman who developed a protein deficiency on a high fruit diet. She was instructed to eat 2 oz. nuts every day and her protein-deficiency edema was resolved, and later the rest of her symptoms were resolved as she re-worked her lifestyle. I won't deny that it -could- be a mental block, but I really think I just have to have the nuts/seeds and extra greens in order to be at my best. A lot of people have said that 80/10/10 didn't work for them. Maybe they weren't doing -some tiny little thing- right, but I find that if an eating plan ends up becoming a three ring balancing act, it's just not worth it. (I'm also working on resolving some dental issues with my dentist and find that certain fruits trigger sensitivity.) I may attempt it in the future at some point when I have a little more experience, but for now this is what's working. -Emily , " Mark H " <hovila wrote: > > Emily, > > > > Oops, thanks for asking. It must have been late when I posted that, because > I was definitely high with those numbers. Generally I get them from Fitday > or Nutridiary. I must have been looking at figures for a higher quantity > than an ounce and a head. Sorry! > > > > But I stand by my overall point about protein deficiency. You may want to > analyze all of your protein using one of those sites and see what you end up > with at the end of the day, bearing in mind that you are getting higher > utilization by eating raw. > > > > In any event, some people, such as Doug Graham, claim there is no such thing > as protein deficiency in a whole food diet that provides sufficient > calories. > > > > Mark > _____ > > > On Behalf Of emilyc615 > Wednesday, June 10, 2009 6:22 PM > > Re: Health and Fat > > Where are you getting your numbers? I've seen figures only as high as 10 > grams protein for a head of lettuce, 6 grams for an ounce of almonds. > There's 4 grams of protein in a serving of Vitamineral Green. > > @ <%40> > , " Mark Hovila " <hovila@> wrote: > > > > Well an ounce of almonds has about 18 grams of protein, so that is about > the > > same as a head of lettuce, 20 grams. So I don't see any protein deficiency > > in that diet. And remember, fruit has protein, too. > > > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > @ <%40> > [@ > <%40> ] > > On Behalf Of emilyc615 > > Monday, June 08, 2009 6:51 AM > > @ <%40> > > > Re: Health and Fat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I amended/edited it-- One bunch of greens a day. 2-4 oz. of nuts and seeds > > along with ample amounts of greens is the recommendation in LFF. > > > > @ <%40> > > , " Mark Hovila " <hovila@> wrote: > > > > > > Emily, > > > > > > If you were eating 3 big bunches of greens a day, you were probably > > getting > > > around 60 grams of protein from that alone. The USDA recommends 0.8 > grams > > > of protein per kilogram of body weight. A 150 pound person would, > > according > > > to this guideline, need only 54 grams of protein daily. And let's not > > > forget that the USDA is basically owned by the meat and dairy > industries, > > so > > > their recommendations are high. > > > > > > And because your protein was raw, not cooked, it was 100% useable by the > > > body, unlike cooked protein, which I have read is only 50% useable or > so. > > I > > > think this fact is mentioned in The Live Food Factor. > > > > > > Nora's comments make a lot of sense to me. > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > Chiming in a bit, though I haven't been active lately. > > > > > > I agree that a low-fat diet is essential. However, I followed 80/10/10 > for > > a > > > few months and started to develop signs of protein deficiency, > > particularly > > > brittle nails and hair. I was eating about three bunches of greens a day > > > plus a tablespoon of vitamineral green in my smoothies. I've started to > > > drink hemp milk (with just a little raw cacao) without straining the > pulp > > > after workouts and I've increased my vegetable intake as well. We shall > > see > > > what happens. > > > > > > Before I went raw, I was following Dr. Joel Fuhrman's " Eat to Live " > plan. > > He > > > advocates at least a 50% raw diet and really emphasizes in his book that > > we > > > need RAW fruits and vegetables to protect ourselves from diseases of > > > affluence (cancer!). The book is a really easy, valuable lesson in > > > nutrition, and also emphasizes a low, low, low fat diet; no more than > once > > > ounce of walnuts a day or a tablespoon of flax a day, and all fat should > > be > > > heavy in omega-3's. I've started to re-read it due to these protein > > > deficiency issues. It's a great reminder! > > > > > > -Emily > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 Chiming in again... I remember hearing an interview with David Wolfe in which he said that raw food experts really emphasize greens because most raw foodists tend to shy away from them, preferring mostly nuts and fruits, but that the quantity does not need to be especially high. I know Victoria Boutenko recommends two big bunches of greens a day for most people. -Emily , " Nora Lenz " <nmlenz wrote: > > Hi Lorri, > I don't think you will find any upper limits published anywhere, lol. It is > universally assumed that greens are such perfect, life-giving, " healing " > foods that one can never consume too many! In reality, greens are not ideal > human foods by any truly objective measure, especially considering that > people typically eat them highly condimented and in complex combinations > with other foods that are difficult to digest. This is only one of the > problems associated with diets heavy on greens, in addition to the fact that > they do not provide adequate fuel (sugar) and that people who are sold on > greens as perfect foods usually make the mistake of eating the more > cellulose-dense varieties. > > There is no food or nutritional supplement that cleanses the body. The body > cleanses itself, and how much of that it will be able to do comes down to a > simple equation, which is the same regardless of which types of foods are > being evaluated as improvements or replacements for other foods that are > currently part of the diet. If the new foods create less of a digestive > burden than the old foods, more energy will be available for the discarding > of stored wastes and toxins. Obviously the answer will be different for > everyone. That's why although I will call greens 'less than ideal', I > wouldn't go so far as to say that they are either good or bad. It's all > relative. > > From this perspective, to entertain the question of how many/much greens > would be " too much " would require knowing not only the quantity that will be > eaten but also what kind of greens, how they'll be eaten/processed, what > time of day, in what combinations, etc. The person's past and present > eating habits would have to be considered as well. As I mentioned in my > post before, it's not simply a matter of getting " too much " of whatever > greens have to offer, it's a bit more complicated than that. > > Hope this is useful. > > Best wishes, > Nora > > > > > Nora, > > > > What would you consider " too many greens " and what > > problems would that create? I'm thinking of doing > > some green cleansing and so far haven't found any > > information on limits. > > > > Lorri > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Hi Nora, I have started have a green smoothie in the mornings made with fruit and usually spinach although I try to get different greens sometimes. I have found there is a remarkable difference in my skin since I started doing this so I will definitely continue it. I do also have several green salads a week. Frankly I grew up on meat and potatoes, will an occasional portion of canned corn thrown in. It's almost work for me to get enough fruit and veggies, I've made huge strides since I started transitioning to raw. So I'm amazed at how nice my skin is by eating more green stuff, go figure :-) Anyway... What I was thinking of doing is just increasing the number of green smoothies to two or three a day for a while. I still find myself getting cooked foods at work (restaurant), for instance at the moment I'm eating the second half of a Patty Melt. My goal is to be very high raw but I'm not there yet and wanted to clean out some of the junk I know is stored. I also thought if I took one with me to work to chug on it might help me stay away from the cheeseburgers. Again this would be made with fruit. _____ On Behalf Of Nora Lenz Thursday, June 11, 2009 7:07 PM Re: Re: Health and Fat Hi Lorri, I don't think you will find any upper limits published anywhere, lol. It is universally assumed that greens are such perfect, life-giving, " healing " foods that one can never consume too many! In reality, greens are not ideal human foods by any truly objective measure, especially considering that people typically eat them highly condimented and in complex combinations with other foods that are difficult to digest. This is only one of the problems associated with diets heavy on greens, in addition to the fact that they do not provide adequate fuel (sugar) and that people who are sold on greens as perfect foods usually make the mistake of eating the more cellulose-dense varieties. There is no food or nutritional supplement that cleanses the body. The body cleanses itself, and how much of that it will be able to do comes down to a simple equation, which is the same regardless of which types of foods are being evaluated as improvements or replacements for other foods that are currently part of the diet. If the new foods create less of a digestive burden than the old foods, more energy will be available for the discarding of stored wastes and toxins. Obviously the answer will be different for everyone. That's why although I will call greens 'less than ideal', I wouldn't go so far as to say that they are either good or bad. It's all relative. From this perspective, to entertain the question of how many/much greens would be " too much " would require knowing not only the quantity that will be eaten but also what kind of greens, how they'll be eaten/processed, what time of day, in what combinations, etc. The person's past and present eating habits would have to be considered as well. As I mentioned in my post before, it's not simply a matter of getting " too much " of whatever greens have to offer, it's a bit more complicated than that. Hope this is useful. Best wishes, Nora Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Lorri, it sounds like you're doing great. Just remember that small changes are more sustainable than big ones. That's why I am critical of the 80/10/10 approach; not because it's a bad diet (it's actually among the best) but because it represents such a huge departure from what most people eat -- even most raw fooders -- that it leads to backsliding, which is hard on the body and psyche. When a person goes directly from patty melts to green smoothies, there's nothing to go back to besides patty melts when green smoothies fail to satisfy. Being on middle ground and accepting it is very important, and this is not really taught in the raw food world. It seems all the 'experts' either teach how to eat transitional foods forever or they encourage radical changes that can't be sustained. As I mentioned in my last post, a good question to ask yourself when evaluating a new food or eating habit is whether it represents improvement over what you did before. It is not the greens specifically that are responsible for the health improvements you've noted, like better skin texture, etc., but the overall improvements you've made. Continued success on your transition, Nora ---- Anyway... What I was > thinking of doing is just increasing the number of > green smoothies to two or three a day for a while. > I still find myself getting cooked foods at work > (restaurant), for instance at the moment I'm > eating the second half of a Patty Melt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Hi Emily, Thanks. I read that article by Dr. Vetrano. If there really was a protein deficiency, it seems that eating more greens would rectify the problem, too. But she doesn't mention that alternative for some reason. Certainly eating a couple of ounces of nuts and seeds is more convenient, and cheaper. Too bad Dr. V doesn't post on any forums, that I know of. Mark _____ On Behalf Of emilyc615 Thursday, June 11, 2009 10:31 PM Re: Health and Fat Thanks Mark. I've read 80/10/10 and found it to be very interesting and informative, but the diet makes me feel very unbalanced and ravenous and causes candida issues. (I know Graham attributes that to too much fat in the diet, but I found that not to be the case for me.) There's an article called " True Fruitarianism " in The Live Food Factor and it includes a case study of a woman who developed a protein deficiency on a high fruit diet. She was instructed to eat 2 oz. nuts every day and her protein-deficiency edema was resolved, and later the rest of her symptoms were resolved as she re-worked her lifestyle. I won't deny that it -could- be a mental block, but I really think I just have to have the nuts/seeds and extra greens in order to be at my best. A lot of people have said that 80/10/10 didn't work for them. Maybe they weren't doing -some tiny little thing- right, but I find that if an eating plan ends up becoming a three ring balancing act, it's just not worth it. (I'm also working on resolving some dental issues with my dentist and find that certain fruits trigger sensitivity.) I may attempt it in the future at some point when I have a little more experience, but for now this is what's working. -Emily Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Hi Nora, Dr. Graham's 80/10/10 approach is what he calls the bullseye, the optimum diet. There are lots of people out there advocating compromise type raw diets, where you eat " gourmet " type raw foods, or 80% raw, etc. But he never tells people that they need to shoot for the bullseye 100% from day 1. You can do that if you want, but he offers a few transition strategies, such as beginning with the breakfast meal, or breakfast and lunch. He also says if limiting yourself to 10% calories from fat is too hard, start by keeping it in the teens. Unfortunately, many people who try to do it 100% from the get-go will backslide, and when they do they feel like failures. People are so impatient. I heard him say that it takes most people about 7 years to master the diet. But many people expect to be perfect in a few months, or even a month. Personally, I like the approach of aiming for the bullseye at the beginning of the day. You can keep track of how many days you succeeded and how many days you didn't. If the number of successful days increases over time you are heading in the right direction. Mark _____ On Behalf Of Nora Lenz Friday, June 12, 2009 7:28 AM Re: Re: Health and Fat Lorri, it sounds like you're doing great. Just remember that small changes are more sustainable than big ones. That's why I am critical of the 80/10/10 approach; not because it's a bad diet (it's actually among the best) but because it represents such a huge departure from what most people eat -- even most raw fooders -- that it leads to backsliding, which is hard on the body and psyche. When a person goes directly from patty melts to green smoothies, there's nothing to go back to besides patty melts when green smoothies fail to satisfy. Being on middle ground and accepting it is very important, and this is not really taught in the raw food world. It seems all the 'experts' either teach how to eat transitional foods forever or they encourage radical changes that can't be sustained. As I mentioned in my last post, a good question to ask yourself when evaluating a new food or eating habit is whether it represents improvement over what you did before. It is not the greens specifically that are responsible for the health improvements you've noted, like better skin texture, etc., but the overall improvements you've made. Continued success on your transition, Nora ------------------------- Anyway... What I was > thinking of doing is just increasing the number of > green smoothies to two or three a day for a while. > I still find myself getting cooked foods at work > (restaurant), for instance at the moment I'm > eating the second half of a Patty Melt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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