Veggie Pets

May 29, 2003

Someone wrote-

>Have you been able to put your kitten/cat on >a veggie diet?

I don't understand the need for people to assume that cats/dogs have the moral

quandries we have about eating other critters.

We are omnivores. Therefore, we can safely eat veggie diets. BUT CATS ARE

NOT!!!!! Cats are carnivores. Even dogs, who are omnivores, are designed to

eat meat. In my not so humble opinion, it is a very cruel thing to try to

veggie-ize cats, or even dogs. They are built to process/eat meat and should do

so. Just because your cat doesn't keel over on a veggie diet doesn't mean that

he or she will get all the needed nutrients.

So, I will step off my soap box and prepare for the barrage of tomatoes.

Peace.

Starfrog

Free online calendar with sync to Outlook.

May 30, 2003

Hi,

We have two dogs and, although I have fed them a can or two of

vegetarian dog food, 99% of the time they get normal (well, Eukanuba

and IAMs) dog food which does have meat in it. Honestly I do have

occasional questions in my brain about giving them a vegetarian

diet, whether I should or should not.

" The Whole Dog Journal, A monthly guide to natural dog care and training "

has an article about " Veggie Dogs " . The sub heading is " Dogs can exist

as vegetarians, but making the diet 'complete and balanced' requires owner

commitment and diligence. "

They recommend this book, " Home-Prepared Dog and Cat Diets: The Healthful

Alternative " by Donald R. Strombeck. " It contains recipes for complete and

balanced vegetarian (and non-vegetarian) diets, and tons of other useful

information on nutrition. " The article indicates it is possible for a dog

to be a vegetarian but not cats, " who are true obligate carnivores " .

It also points out :that some of the meat found in pet foods (especially

low-cost

products) comes from animals that are known as 'four D': dead, dying,

diseased or disabled animals unfit for human consumption. " Similarly many of

the pet foods " contain trace amounts of the same hormones, pesticides, and

antibiotics that are found in commercial meat products for humans. People

who avoid such substances out of concern about potential health problems

may want their pets to avoid them, also. "

The article suggests consulting with your veterinarian and to consider the

possibility of " investing in consultation with a veterinary college's

nutritional

service. Some will formulate a diet just for your dog's needs. "

The article indicates dogs will need supplements or they won't have enough

minerals to keep their bones strong. They also were " nervous " about a

" large-breed, rapidly growing puppy " going completely vegetarian. The article

indicates that a lot of people supplement a primarily vegetarian diet with

raw, meaty bones.

Also you should be aware that " Ingesting too many onions can cause a dog

to develop Heinz-body hemolytic anemia, in which red blood cells are

damaged. " However " No studies have determined the amount " of " too much " .

The article ends with " There are no formal studies that examine vegetarian

diets

over the long haul. " There are anecdotal stories about dogs living longer,

having

arthritis go away, etc. but formal scientific studies don't seem to be present.

The article is by C. C. Holland and it is the June 2003 issue, Vol 6, Number 6.

Anyway, getting back to your email. The article indicates that you are correct

about cats but maybe not so correct about dogs.

Gary

At 09:15 PM 5/29/03 -0700, you wrote:

>Someone wrote-

>

> >Have you been able to put your kitten/cat on >a veggie diet?

>

>I don't understand the need for people to assume that cats/dogs have the

>moral quandries we have about eating other critters.

>

>We are omnivores. Therefore, we can safely eat veggie diets. BUT CATS

>ARE NOT!!!!! Cats are carnivores. Even dogs, who are omnivores, are

>designed to eat meat. In my not so humble opinion, it is a very cruel

>thing to try to veggie-ize cats, or even dogs. They are built to

>process/eat meat and should do so. Just because your cat doesn't keel

>over on a veggie diet doesn't mean that he or she will get all the needed

>nutrients.

>

>So, I will step off my soap box and prepare for the barrage of tomatoes.

>

>Peace.

>

>Starfrog

>

>Free online calendar with sync to Outlook.

>

May 30, 2003

Sant & Brown <santbrown@l...> wrote:

> Have

> you been able to put your kitten/cat on a veggie diet?

The following is copied and pasted from my previous post on this topic,

back in September when I did this quick bit of research.

/message/179

There is a company called Vegpet that makes vegan pet foods and

supplements that can be found at www.vegpet.com Their website is worth

looking through.

However, most authorities say its not a good choice for cats. From the

Vegetarian Society information sheet:

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/catfood.html

Cats - a vegetarian diet?

Although it is possible to keep dogs on a vegetarian diet

satisfactorily, cats are more specialised and you are advised to

consider carefully before changing your cat to a vegetarian diet.

Cats are natural carnivores and are unlikely to willingly forego meat

from their diet. Cats fed on vegetarian diets are likely to look

elsewhere for their preferred meat diet, and many cats will hunt and

kill small rodents and birds.

Cats require certain nutrients from meat that cannot be obtained in

sufficient amounts from plant foods. These include taurine, arachidonic

acid, vitamin A, and vitamin B12.

Whilst cats may enjoy certain plant foods, vegetarian diets high in

fibre and polyunsaturated fatty acids may be detrimental to a cat's

health. High fibre foods can fill the cat's digestive system without

providing the necessary nutrients in sufficient concentrations. Excess

polyunsaturated fatty acids in vegetable oils can lead to a vitamin E

deficiency related illness.

If you do decide to give your cat a vegetarian diet, then a supplement

is available from:

Katz Go Vegan, The Vegan Society, 7 Battle Road, St.Leonards on Sea,

East Sussex, TN37 7AA

This is a powder which can be added to your cat's meals. If you do not

feel it is appropriate to feed your cat a vegetarian diet, then you may

find it preferable to use concentrated dry cat food rather than canned.

Most major cat food manufacturers now produce concentrated dry foods

which may be less offensive to handle for vegetarian cat owners as well

as conferring health benefits for your cat in comparison with

traditional canned food.

Vegetarian cat owners should always be prepared to seek professional

help by contacting either their veterinary officer or an animal

nutritionist through the RSPCA.

Personally, my dog gets an organic specialty dry food, and the

occasional table scraps (including some meat from my roommate).

HTH.....

--

Sherri

After things go from bad to worse, the cycle will repeat itself.

May 30, 2003

No tomatoes coming from me. LOL I agree with you. I wouldn't dream of taking the

meat from my cat or dog.

~Janice~

HAM AND EGGS - A day's work for a chicken, a lifetime commitment for a pig.

-

Raven Peters

Thursday, May 29, 2003 11:15 PM

Veggie Pets

Someone wrote-

>Have you been able to put your kitten/cat on >a veggie diet?

I don't understand the need for people to assume that cats/dogs have the moral

quandries we have about eating other critters.

We are omnivores. Therefore, we can safely eat veggie diets. BUT CATS ARE

NOT!!!!! Cats are carnivores. Even dogs, who are omnivores, are designed to

eat meat. In my not so humble opinion, it is a very cruel thing to try to

veggie-ize cats, or even dogs. They are built to process/eat meat and should do

so. Just because your cat doesn't keel over on a veggie diet doesn't mean that

he or she will get all the needed nutrients.

So, I will step off my soap box and prepare for the barrage of tomatoes.

Peace.

Starfrog

Free online calendar with sync to Outlook.

May 30, 2003

In my case, the decision was made for me -- my older kitten is highly

allergic to many foods and, after many months of attempts, we've

finally found one that she can stomach (literally). It has meat in

it but is a very high quality, prescription (expensive!) brand so I

can only hope it's NOT made w/ the four D's.

As far as would I - well, even though I've been veggie for 12 years,

I still bring home some turkey from my parents' at Thanksgiving for

their treats. They get so happy, I have to do it...

-K

, Raven Peters

<starfrog1969> wrote:

> Someone wrote-

>

> >Have you been able to put your kitten/cat on >a veggie diet?

>

> I don't understand the need for people to assume that cats/dogs

have the moral quandries we have about eating other critters.

>

> We are omnivores. Therefore, we can safely eat veggie diets. BUT

CATS ARE NOT!!!!! Cats are carnivores. Even dogs, who are

omnivores, are designed to eat meat. In my not so humble opinion, it

is a very cruel thing to try to veggie-ize cats, or even dogs. They

are built to process/eat meat and should do so. Just because your

cat doesn't keel over on a veggie diet doesn't mean that he or she

will get all the needed nutrients.

>

> So, I will step off my soap box and prepare for the barrage of

tomatoes.

>

> Peace.

>

Starfrog

>

> Free online calendar with sync to Outlook.

>

May 30, 2003

No one suggested that dogs or cats have qualms about eating critters. No

more do cows have qualms about eating ground up cows in their feed. Some

of us, however, feel that there are a couple of things to consider:

One: is that it makes little sense, for *some* of us, to 'rescue' an

animal's life in order to have other animals killed to feed it. If that

rescued animal can be happily, successfully and healthily fed on a

vegetarian diet, then *some* of us feel that it should be attempted. My

own two dogs love their vegetarian diet and are healthier than they have

ever been. Their bodies don't seen to know the difference between animal

protein and vegetable protein - but vet tests reveal very very healthy

dogs.

Two: is that *some* of us do not like the grade of meat that is put into

petfood - canned or kibble. Quite apart from the 'Mad Cow' scare, which

as a current resident of Canada I have to mention ;=) I think, the

so-called 'Four D's' in petfood - Dead, Dying, Disabled and Diseased

animals *prior* to arriving at the rendering plant - are unacceptable.

The answer could be, of course, to buy fresh meat for them - unless of

course one is having difficulties mentioned in the paragraph immediately

above this one.

The fact that cats are carnivores is well known - there is no need to

shout! ;=) However, I understand that some people have successfully fed

their cats not 'merely' a vegetarian diet but a vegan diet. It's all a

matter of the supplements one adds to it, I understand. My query was

to the person who mentioned that her kitten had not quite forgiven her

for turning to soy milk ;=) It was a straightforward question. I was

interested. My own cat refuses meat or fish of any kind unless it is

baked in kibble, but he is a fussy eater with a difficult tum. I feed

him special kibble with so-called 'human grade' chicken in it, whatever

*that* means in the advertising world *LOL* And although I have looked

into it as a possibility, I have no current plans to try to switch him

to a vegetarian or vegan diet. If however I should decide to do so, I

would not consider it cruel nor would I allow uninformed opinion, humble

or otherwise, to sway me.

No barrage of tomatoes for you ;=) - sorry. I'm too busy feeding them to

my older dog, who adores them, while apples go to my younger dog, who

doesn't :=) Go figure *LOL*

Best,

Pat

--

SANTBROWN

townhounds/

http://www.angelfire.com/art/pendragon/

----------

* " He who is cruel to animals becomes hard also in his dealings with

men. We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals. " -

Immanuel Kant

* " I am in favour of animal rights as well as human rights. That is the

way of a whole human being. " - Abraham Lincoln

* " There are too many idiots in this world. And having said it, I have

the burden of proving it. "

- Franz Fanon

----------

May 30, 2003

Don't get me wrong about worrying about my pets' diet. I hate the thought of

what goes into dog/cat food. But I am feeding three people and three fuzzy

people on disability. I CAN'T afford the expensive foods, not that I am certain

that they are that better for the animals- I just haven't had the resources to

research the matter. Been to busy dealing with other stuff, like my illness.

When you are so sick you can't leave your house for three months, even to walk

to the mail box, the stuff in the dog food really isn't that important.

Besides, my dog eats poop. And other nasties. I am far more worried about what

goes in my kids at this point. As you all know by now.

And, I still believe, at least for cats, a meat based diet is still the best.

~Janice Macak~ <serenity1 wrote:

No tomatoes coming from me. LOL I agree with you. I wouldn't dream of taking the

meat from my cat or dog.

~Janice~

HAM AND EGGS - A day's work for a chicken, a lifetime commitment for a pig.

-

Raven Peters

Thursday, May 29, 2003 11:15 PM

Veggie Pets

Peace,

Starfrog

Free online calendar with sync to Outlook.

May 30, 2003

I've wondered about this myself. When I lived in Jamaica it was customary to

feed the dogs plain cornmeal, and our dogs lived long and healthy lives.

However, I remember an episode of Animal Precinct on Animal Planet when a woman

fed her cats a vegetarian diet (granted, not a very balanced one) and several of

her cats went blind.

Free online calendar with sync to Outlook.

May 31, 2003

> Besides, my dog eats poop. And other nasties. I am far more worried about

> what goes in my kids at this point. As you all know by now.

*LOL* Yes, I know. Mine try to too - and sometimes other junk. I walk

'em in the park after a particularly nice breakfast or dinnermade with

my own two fair hands, and they slurp up duck or goose poop or the

mouldy bread scattered for the birds as if it were petit fours ;=)

Reminds me of meals at home when my son was small - oh no, Mom, I don't

want your (name delicious nutritious whatever) because Shawn's Mom has

invited me over for hotdogs, can I go Huh? Kidz! ;=)

And yes, your dogs will do fine - and so, darling, will your kids -

believe me ;=) I haven't been paying attention, I guess - I didn't

realize you were unwell - I'm so sorry to hear it. Please take good care

of yourself.

Best love,

Pat

--

SANTBROWN

townhounds/

http://www.angelfire.com/art/pendragon/

----------

* " He who is cruel to animals becomes hard also in his dealings with

men. We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals. " -

Immanuel Kant

* " I am in favour of animal rights as well as human rights. That is the

way of a whole human being. " - Abraham Lincoln

* " There are too many idiots in this world. And having said it, I have

the burden of proving it. "

- Franz Fanon

----------

May 31, 2003

It may have been a lack (or insufficient amount ) of taurine...something very

vital to a cat's heart and eye health.

Lois S.

TempestuousTrollop <tempestuoustrollop wrote:

I've wondered about this myself. When I lived in Jamaica it was customary to

feed the dogs plain cornmeal, and our dogs lived long and healthy lives.

However, I remember an episode of Animal Precinct on Animal Planet when a woman

fed her cats a vegetarian diet (granted, not a very balanced one) and several of

her cats went blind.

Free online calendar with sync to Outlook.

June 3, 2003

About the cats: they need the taurine that is in meat. It can be

provided through supplements and I know of people who have successfully

fed their cats a vegan diet plus plant-derived (I believe) taurine.

As for the dogs, I myself would hesitate to feed them only on cornmeal,

but perhaps your dogs managed to find other food for themselves, or

helped to clear up the vegetables left over from human meals, or ate the

trimmings from preparing the vegetables? In any case, they were healthy

you say ;=) so everything worked out fine. Feeding pets is not rocket

science, any more than it is to feed humans ;=) - as I always say. I

always think we worry to much about both - and that, in the case of

both, we rely (often because of lack of hours in our days) overly much

on preprepared foods put out, in too many cases, by greedy and not

necessarily scrupulous manufacturers ;=) Keeping things simple and basic

whenever possible is my aim. Siggggghhhhh.

Best,

Pat

> I've wondered about this myself. When I lived in Jamaica it was customary to

> feed the dogs plain cornmeal, and our dogs lived long and healthy lives.

> However, I remember an episode of Animal Precinct on Animal Planet when a

woman

> fed her cats a vegetarian diet (granted, not a very balanced one) and several

> of her cats went blind.

--

SANTBROWN

townhounds/

http://www.angelfire.com/art/pendragon/

----------

* " He who is cruel to animals becomes hard also in his dealings with

men. We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals. " -

Immanuel Kant

* " I am in favour of animal rights as well as human rights. That is the

way of a whole human being. " - Abraham Lincoln

* " There are too many idiots in this world. And having said it, I have

the burden of proving it. "

- Franz Fanon

----------

June 3, 2003

Good points, Gary ;=)

As it happens, I had sent off my own reply before I read yours.

There are excellent veggie pet sites on the net for anyone who needs

info, as well as an excellent list - well, two actually, although one is

not very active. I belong to both. I can send the urls along to you

offlist if you would like them ;=)

About IAMS/Eukanuba: I hesitate to mention this because I understand

that not everyone - by a long shot - is on a vegetarian list because of

caring for the animals and I don't want to presume. However, I had my

companion animals on these brands in the past (some time before I put

the dogs on a vegetarian diet). I switched to another brand when I found

out about the IAMS scandal over not just testing on animals but the

dreadful conditions under which the animals were kept and the inhumane

methods used in testing. I don't wish to provoke an argument with the

list on this matter, but *for me* it was worth switching for that reason

alone.

As for cats, it's really difficult, but there are people - and I have

been in touch with them - who have grown cats to a great and healthy old

age on a vegan diet. I am not game enough to try it, because it would

mean not only finding the right supplements (they gotta have that

taurine) but also making the kibble (difficult for me) as well as the

wet food - and my cat absolutely refuses wet food. Vegetarian dog kibble

of excellent quality is already available, supplements are everywhere,

and the wet food is easy to make as are vegetarian dog biscuits/treats.

--

SANTBROWN

townhounds/

http://www.angelfire.com/art/pendragon/

----------

* " He who is cruel to animals becomes hard also in his dealings with

men. We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals. " -

Immanuel Kant

* " I am in favour of animal rights as well as human rights. That is the

way of a whole human being. " - Abraham Lincoln

* " There are too many idiots in this world. And having said it, I have

the burden of proving it. "

- Franz Fanon

----------

June 3, 2003

Cats and dogs in the wild eat meat ( & sometimes plants). We should not be

forcing our own diet on them for moral or whatever other personal reasons.

It goes against nature. Period.

Just my own opinion on the matter, coming from a dietary vegan, so please

don't take it personally anyone. :-)

Megan

June 4, 2003

I've explained the vegetarian position to the cats several times.

They're very hardheaded. In fact, few stay awake during my lecture. I

think I may be making some headway, though. I've seen some eating

grass. They say it's a great hairball remedy.

Laurie

June 4, 2003

I've found in pet stores, seeds for growing kitty grass (aka, kitty greens and

kitty herbs). The cats I've had have always enjoyed this 'treat' (they were

indoor cats so couldn't get to grass outside). The seeds literally grow like

and look like grass. From what I've seen on the subject, eating grass settles

upset tummies due to hairballs, parasites or what have you. Somewhere I've also

seen the suggestion the cats and dogs may be trying to provide folic acid, but

have yet to see anything to back that assertion up. And, Laurie, none of my

cats have ever stayed awake for any of my lectures. In fact, they have either

fallen asleep or walked off to other rooms to do anything but listen to whatever

the human had to say. )

Lois S.

Laurie <laitaina wrote:

I've explained the vegetarian position to the cats several times.

They're very hardheaded. In fact, few stay awake during my lecture. I

think I may be making some headway, though. I've seen some eating

grass. They say it's a great hairball remedy.

Laurie

June 6, 2003

I'm a tad bit wary of that pet grass. What if my cat rolls it up and

smokes it?

Laurie

, " Lois S. "

<lrstrappello> wrote:

> I've found in pet stores, seeds for growing kitty grass (aka, kitty

greens and kitty herbs). The cats I've had have always enjoyed

this 'treat' (they were indoor cats so couldn't get to grass

outside). The seeds literally grow like and look like grass. From

what I've seen on the subject, eating grass settles upset tummies due

to hairballs, parasites or what have you. Somewhere I've also seen

the suggestion the cats and dogs may be trying to provide folic acid,

but have yet to see anything to back that assertion up. And, Laurie,

none of my cats have ever stayed awake for any of my lectures. In

fact, they have either fallen asleep or walked off to other rooms to

do anything but listen to whatever the human had to say. )

>

> Lois S.

>

> Laurie <laitaina@h...> wrote:

> I've explained the vegetarian position to the cats several times.

> They're very hardheaded. In fact, few stay awake during my lecture.

I

> think I may be making some headway, though. I've seen some eating

> grass. They say it's a great hairball remedy.

>

> Laurie

>

June 6, 2003

LMBO....

Janice

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Blessed are those who can laugh at themselves,

for they shall never cease to be amused.

-

Laurie

Friday, June 06, 2003 9:43 AM

Re: Veggie Pets