Guest guest Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 I agree with Matt Ball and hope that we can hear from more folks on this listserv that are tolerate of other viewpoints and struggling to make better choices everyday. Don't we stand a better chance of converting the world to plant foods when we try to meet them where they are instead of scolding them? Do we really need to present a picture to the world that all vegetarians/vegans are so rigid and extreme? That's how I've begun to feel after being on this listserv for just a short time. Doh! [dohdriver] Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:48 AM VegParents Matt Ball's response > " Scott Geiger " <scott_geiger > Re: 8th Continent Soymilks > Could you please post Matt Ball's response to you? Sure. What follows is: 1) Matt Ball's response to the letters he received regarding his promotion of 8th Continent, with links you might want to check out, 2) His letter to GM regarding changing the vitamin D from 3 to 2, 3) GM's response, and 4) His response to a reader on another topic (from another issue of Vegan Spam), which also helps ellucidate his reasoning for promoting companies such as these. Please know I have nothing against him or his decisions, and there are occasions when I come to the same conclusion. I posted the original letter to him since 8th C was mentioned here, and wanted to be fair and share VO's side a well, since they're the reason I looked into the subject in the first place. ~Doh May 21, 2003 Follow-up Soymilk Encounter of the " DOH! " Kind -Matt Ball My mention of 8th Continent Soymilk in the last Vegan Spam brought in more letters than any other edition in the past year. The most pressing comment was that the Vitamin D that is added to the soymilk is derived from animals (it is Vitamin D3, as opposed to D2, which is derived from plants). This might be a good opportunity to write to the company and ask them to make the product acceptable to vegetarians (see postscript <#postscript> ). Other letters took Vegan Outreach to task for endorsing a product that is ³offensive² in other ways. These complaints ranged from the soymilk¹s sugar / chemical content and the possible use of genetically modified soybeans, to one of the parent company¹s animal testing and the evils of multi-national corporations. Let me tell you why I don¹t think these concerns should prevent us from promoting a soymilk. I had heard from a number of people that 8th Continent Soymilk was by far the best, but it was family friends that prompted me to try it. This non-vegan family of four, for whom I had cooked many times, had tried every other kind of non-dairy milk I could find in Pittsburgh. One day, they told me about 8th Continent, and that they are buying it for themselves now, instead of cow¹s milk, because of the taste. Some may argue that the Earth would be better off if they went back to drinking cow¹s milk. While there are people who argue that genetically modified organisms (GMOs) are a greater threat than industrial animal agriculture, I have seen no compelling evidence for this. Various environmental tragedies have been ³right around the corner² for decades, but have never materialized. The Earth only matters as much as the suffering and pleasure of its individual creatures. I¹m not willing to have dairy cows and veal calves suffer and that is what will happen if people are told they can only drink organic, additive-free, small-company soymilk so I can take a symbolic stand against hypothetical environmental nightmares. No matter what we argue, the vast majority of people aren¹t going to give up their status quo, support communal, not-for-profit local farms, and eat only non-processed whole foods. Contrast this with the outcry against any vegetarian endorsement of the BK Veggie <http://www.veganoutreach.org/spam/20020327.html#burger> , and the pre-emptive strikes against McDonald¹s McVeggie (see also this article <http://65.108.12.53/Animal_media_alerts.htm#MCVEGGIE> ) and it would appear that many vegetarians don¹t want to be joined by anyone from the masses. They would rather have it their way. Although we will not promote 8th Continent Soymilk as ³vegan² because of the vitamin D3, we would much prefer that people concerned with taste drink a non-organic soymilk from a multinational that contains D3, rather than continue to drink cow¹s milk. In fact, we don¹t know that avoiding the small amounts of D3 in fortified foods alleviates much suffering; it may very well be that vegans should not publicly worry about D3 if we want to do the most good. Unless human nature changes drastically, most people are going to continue doing what is relatively convenient. This is the bottom line: we can argue, in isolation, for our view of vegan purity, or we can encourage concrete steps that will prevent suffering. See also On Being Vegan <http://www.veganoutreach.org/starterpack/beingvegan.html#purity> and Veganism Reconsidered <http://www.veganoutreach.org/advocacy/path.html#veganexample> . Postscript: I wrote the following letter to the folks at 8th Continent <8thContinent with hopes of making them aware of a potential market: Dear Friends, I'm with Vegan Outreach, a non-profit organization that promotes choosing products that don't cause suffering. Recently in our e-mail newsletter <http://www.veganoutreach.org/spam/20030516.html> , I gave a plug to 8th Continent Soymilk, which a friend had praised as the only soymilk she would drink. Since the e-mail newsletter went out, many people have written to tell me that your product isn't vegetarian, because it is fortified with Vitamin D3 instead of D2. I am writing to ask if there is any chance that this formulation might ever be changed. I ask because my family and I would like to continue purchasing your product, and because I think that it would be a great product for a growing segment of the population. I know that a small but highly vocal minority of vegetarians will complain that the product has too much sugar, isn't organic, is made by a multi-national, etc. However, there are many others who, like me, would love to have a delicious vegetarian product available to us. Thank you for your time. Sincerely, -m Matt Ball Vegan Outreach http://www.veganoutreach.org/ To which I received the following reply: Dear Mr. Ball: Thank you for contacting 8th Continent about our product. Currently, the formula has not changed to make it into a vegan product. However, we appreciate the time you have taken to share your comments. The information you provided will be carefully reviewed with other members of the product team. We hope you continue to enjoy our products. Sincerely, Melissa Clooney General Mills Consumer Services Exchange re: Chipotle <http://www.veganoutreach.org/spam/20030424.html> Like any vegan, I do wish I had more options when it comes to fast/convenience foods. But before you contact Chipotle and ask them to change their recipe for pinto beans, note who the parent company of Chipotle is: McDonald's. Although every vegan needs to " choose their battles, " I do think it's better for vegans to search for other alternatives (for example, a Chipotle competitor, Qdoba, offers vegetarian black and pinto beans) for burritos rather than choose to support a restaurant owned by a company with one of the worst animal rights track records out there. For many, activism starts with your wallet. Watch where your money goes. AB Of course, economic support of different companies is a consideration for all activists. However, my personal take on it is that it doesn't really matter who the parent company is, in the big scheme of things. For example -- the products I buy the most are from smaller companies. If these companies were, in turn, bought by a larger company, this would be a sign of their success in this capitalist economy. They would have more advertising money and quite possibly a higher R & D budget. Although I understand the argument for working against capitalism / multinationals, my singular goal is to reduce the amount of animal exploitation and suffering. This is why we will do whatever we can to make it easier for new people to go veg, and to stay veg. It has nothing to do with if I, personally, would choose to eat at a vegan restaurant vs. Chipotle. That is a different discussion. The bottom line, though, is that the animals would be better off if Chipotle would stop adding bacon to their pinto beans. On this, I'm sure we all agree! -Matt Ball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 In a message dated 7/18/03 5:50:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, eanderson writes: > Do we really need to present a picture to the world that all > vegetarians/vegans are so rigid and extreme? That's how I've begun to feel after being on > this listserv for just a short time. > I too agree with this. I have met many hardcore veg*n's that are a real turn off. They live by this lifestyle like it is an organized religion, losing sight of what it is really all about. These are OUR choices to better ourselves and the world around us and not everyone is equally evolved. We have to help others evolve. If we are compassionate people who CARE about other *beings we should SHOW others that that is what we are by our actions and not always by words. Don't forget that sometimes (not always) silence is the most caring and responsible choice I will stop at that. Love and Compassion, (`'·.¸(`'·.¸(`'·.¸ ¸.·'´)¸.·'´)¸.·'´) «´¨`·.¸¸.ø°Chrissa°ø.¸¸.·´¨`» (¸.·'´(¸.·'´(¸.·'´ `'·.¸)`'·.¸)`'·.¸) " Remember this always: Your body is not who you are, it is something you have. Your mind is not who you are, it is something you use. Your soul is the essence of who you are. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2003 Report Share Posted July 21, 2003 I agree , the world needs to evolve. I feel so passionate about that, it is a spiritial belief of mine that animals are a gift not to be destroyed. Most of my friends and family respect that but when it comes to my daughter they have strong opinions. I was just at a FAMILY meat fest (ha ha) and they all asked are you raising your daughter not to eat meat? When I said yes I got back lash. It was very hard to contain myself. I wanted to say- Do I tell you how to raise you children spiritually? I could of went off on their catholic beliefs but instead I said Its my choice to raise lauren with my beliefs like you do yours. Its very frustrating sometimes. A. Haberstock Elizabeth Anderson <eanderson wrote: I agree with Matt Ball and hope that we can hear from more folks on this listserv that are tolerate of other viewpoints and struggling to make better choices everyday. Don't we stand a better chance of converting the world to plant foods when we try to meet them where they are instead of scolding them? Do we really need to present a picture to the world that all vegetarians/vegans are so rigid and extreme? That's how I've begun to feel after being on this listserv for just a short time. Doh! [dohdriver] Wednesday, July 16, 2003 10:48 AM VegParents Matt Ball's response > " Scott Geiger " <scott_geiger > Re: 8th Continent Soymilks > Could you please post Matt Ball's response to you? Sure. What follows is: 1) Matt Ball's response to the letters he received regarding his promotion of 8th Continent, with links you might want to check out, 2) His letter to GM regarding changing the vitamin D from 3 to 2, 3) GM's response, and 4) His response to a reader on another topic (from another issue of Vegan Spam), which also helps ellucidate his reasoning for promoting companies such as these. Please know I have nothing against him or his decisions, and there are occasions when I come to the same conclusion. I posted the original letter to him since 8th C was mentioned here, and wanted to be fair and share VO's side a well, since they're the reason I looked into the subject in the first place. ~Doh May 21, 2003 Follow-up Soymilk Encounter of the " DOH! " Kind -Matt Ball My mention of 8th Continent Soymilk in the last Vegan Spam brought in more letters than any other edition in the past year. The most pressing comment was that the Vitamin D that is added to the soymilk is derived from animals (it is Vitamin D3, as opposed to D2, which is derived from plants). This might be a good opportunity to write to the company and ask them to make the product acceptable to vegetarians (see postscript <#postscript> ). Other letters took Vegan Outreach to task for endorsing a product that is ³offensive² in other ways. These complaints ranged from the soymilk¹s sugar / chemical content and the possible use of genetically modified soybeans, to one of the parent company¹s animal testing and the evils of multi-national corporations. Let me tell you why I don¹t think these concerns should prevent us from promoting a soymilk. I had heard from a number of people that 8th Continent Soymilk was by far the best, but it was family friends that prompted me to try it. This non-vegan family of four, for whom I had cooked many times, had tried every other kind of non-dairy milk I could find in Pittsburgh. One day, they told me about 8th Continent, and that they are buying it for themselves now, instead of cow¹s milk, because of the taste. Some may argue that the Earth would be better off if they went back to drinking cow¹s milk. While there are people who argue that genetically modified organisms (GMOs) are a greater threat than industrial animal agriculture, I have seen no compelling evidence for this. Various environmental tragedies have been ³right around the corner² for decades, but have never materialized. The Earth only matters as much as the suffering and pleasure of its individual creatures. I¹m not willing to have dairy cows and veal calves suffer & shy; and that is what will happen if people are told they can only drink organic, additive-free, small-company soymilk & shy; so I can take a symbolic stand against hypothetical environmental nightmares. No matter what we argue, the vast majority of people aren¹t going to give up their status quo, support communal, not-for-profit local farms, and eat only non-processed whole foods. Contrast this with the outcry against any vegetarian endorsement of the BK Veggie <http://www.veganoutreach.org/spam/20020327.html#burger> , and the pre-emptive strikes against McDonald¹s McVeggie (see also this article <http://65.108.12.53/Animal_media_alerts.htm#MCVEGGIE> ) and it would appear that many vegetarians don¹t want to be joined by anyone from the masses. They would rather have it their way. Although we will not promote 8th Continent Soymilk as ³vegan² because of the vitamin D3, we would much prefer that people concerned with taste drink a non-organic soymilk from a multinational that contains D3, rather than continue to drink cow¹s milk. In fact, we don¹t know that avoiding the small amounts of D3 in fortified foods alleviates much suffering; it may very well be that vegans should not publicly worry about D3 if we want to do the most good. Unless human nature changes drastically, most people are going to continue doing what is relatively convenient. This is the bottom line: we can argue, in isolation, for our view of vegan purity, or we can encourage concrete steps that will prevent suffering. See also On Being Vegan <http://www.veganoutreach.org/starterpack/beingvegan.html#purity> and Veganism Reconsidered <http://www.veganoutreach.org/advocacy/path.html#veganexample> . Postscript: I wrote the following letter to the folks at 8th Continent <8thContinent with hopes of making them aware of a potential market: Dear Friends, I'm with Vegan Outreach, a non-profit organization that promotes choosing products that don't cause suffering. Recently in our e-mail newsletter <http://www.veganoutreach.org/spam/20030516.html> , I gave a plug to 8th Continent Soymilk, which a friend had praised as the only soymilk she would drink. Since the e-mail newsletter went out, many people have written to tell me that your product isn't vegetarian, because it is fortified with Vitamin D3 instead of D2. I am writing to ask if there is any chance that this formulation might ever be changed. I ask because my family and I would like to continue purchasing your product, and because I think that it would be a great product for a growing segment of the population. I know that a small but highly vocal minority of vegetarians will complain that the product has too much sugar, isn't organic, is made by a multi-national, etc. However, there are many others who, like me, would love to have a delicious vegetarian product available to us. Thank you for your time. Sincerely, -m Matt Ball Vegan Outreach http://www.veganoutreach.org/ To which I received the following reply: Dear Mr. Ball: Thank you for contacting 8th Continent about our product. Currently, the formula has not changed to make it into a vegan product. However, we appreciate the time you have taken to share your comments. The information you provided will be carefully reviewed with other members of the product team. We hope you continue to enjoy our products. Sincerely, Melissa Clooney General Mills Consumer Services Exchange re: Chipotle <http://www.veganoutreach.org/spam/20030424.html> Like any vegan, I do wish I had more options when it comes to fast/convenience foods. But before you contact Chipotle and ask them to change their recipe for pinto beans, note who the parent company of Chipotle is: McDonald's. Although every vegan needs to " choose their battles, " I do think it's better for vegans to search for other alternatives (for example, a Chipotle competitor, Qdoba, offers vegetarian black and pinto beans) for burritos rather than choose to support a restaurant owned by a company with one of the worst animal rights track records out there. For many, activism starts with your wallet. Watch where your money goes. AB Of course, economic support of different companies is a consideration for all activists. However, my personal take on it is that it doesn't really matter who the parent company is, in the big scheme of things. For example -- the products I buy the most are from smaller companies. If these companies were, in turn, bought by a larger company, this would be a sign of their success in this capitalist economy. They would have more advertising money and quite possibly a higher R & D budget. Although I understand the argument for working against capitalism / multinationals, my singular goal is to reduce the amount of animal exploitation and suffering. This is why we will do whatever we can to make it easier for new people to go veg, and to stay veg. It has nothing to do with if I, personally, would choose to eat at a vegan restaurant vs. Chipotle. That is a different discussion. The bottom line, though, is that the animals would be better off if Chipotle would stop adding bacon to their pinto beans. On this, I'm sure we all agree! -Matt Ball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2003 Report Share Posted July 26, 2003 I have an 11 month old and a newborn, and unfortunately, I get the most flack about raising my kids vegetarian from their father. My husband is a wonderful man, he just happens to come from a workd different from mine. He has asked fme for specific proof that eating meat is " bad " for the kids. My argument that it is bad for the whole world is not good enough for him. Somebody help me please!!! - " A. haberstock " <xenamelina Sunday, July 20, 2003 11:53 PM RE: Matt Ball's response I agree , the world needs to evolve. I feel so passionate about that, it is a spiritial belief of mine that animals are a gift not to be destroyed. Most of my friends and family respect that but when it comes to my daughter they have strong opinions. I was just at a FAMILY meat fest (ha ha) and they all asked are you raising your daughter not to eat meat? When I said yes I got back lash. It was very hard to contain myself. I wanted to say- Do I tell you how to raise you children spiritually? I could of went off on their catholic beliefs but instead I said Its my choice to raise lauren with my beliefs like you do yours. Its very frustrating sometimes. A. Haberstock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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