Guest guest Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 Wow.after reading the letter written to you, I'm speechless. It saddens me to see that people can feel so strongly about something simply because it was written in the Bible. I'm by no means religious, but I was raised Catholic, and my parents are still very religious. I think even THEY would have a problem accepting everything that woman wrote. It's obvious that she put a lot of effort into that letter, but it just shows how far people are willing to go to make excuses for their actions. First of all, maybe I'm wrong, but I have a feeling that factory farms weren't around when the Bible was written. And just because we have " dominion " over the animals, it doesn't make it ok to do whatever we please. Also, she wrote about animal sacrifices in the Bible. People who do that today in the U.S. have gone to jail for animal cruelty. Just because something was acceptable thousands of years ago doesn't make it ok to do now, especially to such extremes. I'm very upset after reading that, not only because she feels so strongly about it, but because she feels that " Buddhists and evolutionists, a lesbian, and an atheist anthropologist " aren't people we should be listening to, simply because they aren't practicing what the Bible says. I guess it just goes to show that some people refuse to change their beliefs, regardless of who or what it helps. Katherine teresa aldrich [taldrich] Saturday, January 22, 2005 6:15 PM a response to the vegetarian quotes Hi, I am that vegan who lives in cattle country in Missouri. I homeschool my kids not for religious reasons but because the local schools are pitiful. When I read the vegetarian quotes on the vegetarian parents emails the other day I forwarded them to several people, the local home school group included. I really touched a nerve in at least one of the members. I have enclosed my response to her letter that she sent me after reading the quotes. Upon reading her letter I was reminded that animal rights have a long way to go in this country and it will take many genarations to get there. We MUST speak for those who cannot. Teresa taldrich Re: [stClairCHEF] off topic January 22, 2005 4:52:11 PM CST s.west Hi, I forwarded the vegetarian quotes to many people I know, not just the CHEF group. It never occurred to me that the integrity of the authors of the quotes would come into question by anyone. I am sorry if I have upset you. I have included a couple of links to some Christian Vegetarian websites that may communicate the vegetarian standpoint to someone as deeply Christian as yourself. http://www.johndear.org/ http://www.jesusveg.com/ Peace, Teresa On Jan 21, 2005, at 2:02 PM, September West wrote: > Hi Teresa, > > I carefully read over all the Vegetarianism Quotes that you shared with > us and would like to share some thoughts with you. (This is a private > reply to you and not to the entire group.) I also agree that hunting > animals for sport is wrong and I respect your decision to refrain from > eating meat, but I do question your reasoning for this decision. I > noticed that all of your quotes were from well-known people, but only > one was from the Bible. The passage in question, Ecclesiates 3:18-19, > is actually Solomon's record of the reasoning of a man living without > God, in contrast to the later chapters of this book, which reflect > Christian reasoning. It is also interesting to note that among those > quoted in the vegetarian statements, there were several Buddhists and > evolutionists, a lesbian, and an atheist anthropologist who was > instrumental in the founding of Planned Parenthood. What concerns me > most is that although none of these people have a Biblical worldview, > you agree with their statements. A couple of years ago, I was > challenged to be sure that my thinking was in line with the Word of > God. > As I dug into the Bible, I found that in many areas, I was not thinking > like a Christian, but had accepted the teachings of secular society. > As > homeschool moms, it is especially important that we are imparting truth > to our children, and not merely the opinions of men. Since we will > give > an account for every idle word that we speak (Matt. 12:6), and Jesus > has > a special love for children (Mark 10:14), we need to take special care > that what we say agrees with his Word (Matt. 18:6). > > There were three recurring themes throughout the Vegetarianism Quotes: > evolution as an accepted fact, animals being equal to man, and the > eating of meat being immoral. I would like to compare these ideas with > Scripture and see if they meet the test of truth. I pray that you will > have an open mind and heart to this discussion, as I have spent several > hours praying about and preparing this letter, and my desire is to > speak > with love. > > How do the teachings of evolution compare to the Word of God? To > begin, > evolution negates the clear teaching of the creation account in > Genesis. > Instead, it tells us that if God was at all involved in the > evolutionary > process, he is imperfect because he could not create correctly the > first > time. If God is imperfect, however, how can he be God? Evolution also > teaches that there were millions of years of death and suffering in the > world before Adam came upon the scene. Romans 5:12 tells us, however, > that death is the result of Adam's sin. If death is just a natural > circumstance according to evolution, then it is not the effect of sin, > and therefore we do not need a Saviour to deliver us from sin. > Evolution, therefore, is diametrically opposed to the Gospel. Although > this is the most important reason why evolution is an unbiblical idea, > there are many others, all of which can creep into our teaching on > other > subjects. An excellent resource for more information on this topic is > www.answersingenesis.org. I also have some wonderful videos that I > could give you regarding creation and evolution from Dr. Kent Hovind, > who will be speaking at the St. Louis Science Center next month. > > Let's look at the second recurring theme, animals being equal to man. > God gave life to both animals and man, however only man was made in > God' > s image (Gen. 1:24-28). In this same passage, man was also given > dominion over all of the animals. Genesis 2:7 also tells us that God > gave man a soul, but this is never said of animals. Jesus taught that > man was superior to the animals in Luke 12:6-7 when he said, " Are not > five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten > before God? But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. > Fear > not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows. " This same > message is repeated by our Lord in Matthew 6:26, " Behold the fowls of > the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; > yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than > they? " God required capital punishment for the murder of humans is > Genesis 9:3, but no such commandment is required for the slaying of > animals. This command is also present in the New Testament, Romans > 13:4. > > If animals and man are distinct creations, then, is it immoral for man > to kill and eat animals? Although not for the purpose of providing > food, God himself killed the first animal when he provided " coats of > skins " as a covering for Adam and Eve (Gen. 3:21). God also apparently > commanded Adam and his family to continue sacrifices as a picture of > the > forthcoming Messiah since we are told of Abel presenting " the firstling > of his flock and of the fat thereof " to the Lord, who " had respect unto > Abel and his offering " , but not unto Cain's offering of the " fruit of > the ground (Gen. 4:4) " While at this time man was under instruction > to > eat only plants and seeds (Gen. 1:29), God removed this restriction > after the flood when he told Noah, " Every moving thing that liveth > shall > be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. > (Gen. 9:3) " > > God established the system of sacrifices in the Old Testament, and the > animals which were slain were then used to provide skins for the > covering of the tabernacle and food for the tabernacle and temple > priests (Lev. 10:12-13). At the dedication of the temple, King Solomon > sacrificed " twenty and two thousand oxen and an hundred and twenty > thousand sheep " and God blessed the nation of Israel for this act of > worship (II Chron. 7:5-10). Although some animals, i.e. pork, > shellfish, etc., were prohibited to be eaten by God's people in the Old > Testament (Lev. 11), he removed this restriction in Acts 10:10-13. > Nearly all of the great heroes of the faith mentioned in Hebrews 11 are > spoken of as having eaten meat. In one of the most compelling cases, > Abraham killed a calf from his herd and had it prepared for the Lord > and > two of his angels to eat when they appeared unto him (Gen. 18:8). In > the New Testament, the Lord Jesus Christ condoned the killing of > animals > for food and ate meat several times. These incidents include > instructing Peter to catch a large multitude of fish (Luke 5), eating > fish at the feeding of the 5,000 (Matt. 14:19), the feeding of the > 4,000 > (Matt. 15:36), and twice with the disciples in his resurrected body > (Luke 24:42-43 and John 21:5-14). Jesus also kept the Passover in > Matthew 24:19, commanding his disciples to prepare for the meal by > killing a spotless lamb. Was it cruel and immoral for Jesus to condone > the killing of fish and lamb for food? If He is the Son of God, the > Word clothed in human flesh " who did no sin " (1 Pet. 2:22), then this > cannot be. > > Romans 14:2-3 teaches that as Christians we are at liberty to either > eat > or not eat meat. Even though eating meat was looked down upon by some > New Testament Christians because the meat had been offered to idols > before being sold in the marketplace, Paul clearly states that while > those who do not eat meat have that freedom, they are not to judge > those > who do. God received them both. " But meat commendeth us not to God: > for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are > we the worse. (1 Cor. 8:8) " By contrast, religious leaders who > command > others to abstain from meats are called " seducing spirits " speaking > " doctrines of devils... For every creature of God is good, and nothing > to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is > sanctified > by the word of God and prayer (1 Tim. 4:1-5). " Therefore, if we choose > to abstain from any activity which is not judged sinful by God's Word, > (including eating meat), it should be because of reasoning that agrees > with the Bible (staying in good health, being good stewards of our > money, etc.) not by the unbiblical opinions of men. " Beware lest any > man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition > of > men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. " > Colossians 2:8. This has been my purpose in writing to you-not to > dissuade you from being a vegetarian or to start a debate, but to > lovingly challenge you, as I have been, to see everything through the > light of God's holy, infallible Word. If you have any questions, or > would like the videotapes I spoke about earlier, please don't hesitate > to contact me. > > In Christ's love, > September West > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2005 Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 Hi, Teresa, Here are some more links for a Christian perspective on vegetarianism: http://www.christianveg.com/ http://www.all-creatures.org/crdir.html http://www.compassionatespirit.com/christian-vegetarian-dialog.htm I definitely would recommend these over Peta's Jesusveg.com site. Their alterior motive might overshadow the message. Also, you might want to direct September to essene.com. The ancient Essene Nazoreans (NOT the Essenes of the Dead Sea Scrolls) were vegan (except they may have eaten honey), and this is the religion and tradition into which Yeshua (AKA Jesus) was born. It is only in the false scriptures that Yeshua eats fish. (By that I don't mean that everything is false; only parts of it are.) If September expands her reading to other literature of the time and to some of the books the Council of Nicea eliminated from it's " Bible, " a more complete picture will arise. Of course, there's the chance she will be offended if she really thinks her " Bible " is complete. Keith Aker's book _The Lost Religion of Jesus_ might be helpful for her, too (his site is the third one listed). --Allison Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2005 Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 If she were a " true Christian " she would be accepting of all people as was Jesus. Jesus also said it was time for change from the old ways, hence Christianity. --- The Isolas <isolafamily wrote: > > Wow.after reading the letter written to you, I'm > speechless. It saddens > me to see that people can feel so strongly about > something simply > because it was written in the Bible. I'm by no > means religious, but I > was raised Catholic, and my parents are still very > religious. I think > even THEY would have a problem accepting everything > that woman wrote. > It's obvious that she put a lot of effort into that > letter, but it just > shows how far people are willing to go to make > excuses for their > actions. First of all, maybe I'm wrong, but I have > a feeling that > factory farms weren't around when the Bible was > written. And just > because we have " dominion " over the animals, it > doesn't make it ok to do > whatever we please. Also, she wrote about animal > sacrifices in the > Bible. People who do that today in the U.S. have > gone to jail for > animal cruelty. Just because something was > acceptable thousands of > years ago doesn't make it ok to do now, especially > to such extremes. > I'm very upset after reading that, not only because > she feels so > strongly about it, but because she feels that > " Buddhists and > evolutionists, a lesbian, and an atheist > anthropologist " aren't people > we should be listening to, simply because they > aren't practicing what > the Bible says. I guess it just goes to show that > some people refuse to > change their beliefs, regardless of who or what it > helps. > > Katherine > > > teresa aldrich [taldrich] > Saturday, January 22, 2005 6:15 PM > > a response to the vegetarian > quotes > > > Hi, > I am that vegan who lives in cattle country in > Missouri. I homeschool > my kids not for religious reasons but because the > local schools are > pitiful. When I read the vegetarian quotes on the > vegetarian parents > emails the other day I forwarded them to several > people, the local home > school group included. I really touched a nerve in > at least one of the > members. I have enclosed my response to her letter > that she sent me > after reading the quotes. > Upon reading her letter I was reminded that animal > rights have a long > way to go in this country and it will take many > genarations to get > there. > We MUST speak for those who cannot. > Teresa > > taldrich > Re: [stClairCHEF] off topic > January 22, 2005 4:52:11 PM CST > s.west > > Hi, > I forwarded the vegetarian quotes to many people I > know, not just the > CHEF group. It never occurred to me that the > integrity of the authors > of the quotes would come into question by anyone. > I am sorry if I have upset you. I have included a > couple of links to > some Christian Vegetarian websites that may > communicate the vegetarian > standpoint to someone as deeply Christian as > yourself. > > http://www.johndear.org/ > > http://www.jesusveg.com/ > > Peace, > Teresa > > On Jan 21, 2005, at 2:02 PM, September West wrote: > > > Hi Teresa, > > > > I carefully read over all the Vegetarianism Quotes > that you shared > with > > us and would like to share some thoughts with you. > (This is a private > > reply to you and not to the entire group.) I also > agree that hunting > > animals for sport is wrong and I respect your > decision to refrain from > > eating meat, but I do question your reasoning for > this decision. I > > noticed that all of your quotes were from > well-known people, but only > > one was from the Bible. The passage in question, > Ecclesiates 3:18-19, > > is actually Solomon's record of the reasoning of a > man living without > > God, in contrast to the later chapters of this > book, which reflect > > Christian reasoning. It is also interesting to > note that among those > > quoted in the vegetarian statements, there were > several Buddhists and > > evolutionists, a lesbian, and an atheist > anthropologist who was > > instrumental in the founding of Planned > Parenthood. What concerns me > > most is that although none of these people have a > Biblical worldview, > > you agree with their statements. A couple of > years ago, I was > > challenged to be sure that my thinking was in line > with the Word of > > God. > > As I dug into the Bible, I found that in many > areas, I was not > thinking > > like a Christian, but had accepted the teachings > of secular society. > > As > > homeschool moms, it is especially important that > we are imparting > truth > > to our children, and not merely the opinions of > men. Since we will > > give > > an account for every idle word that we speak > (Matt. 12:6), and Jesus > > has > > a special love for children (Mark 10:14), we need > to take special care > > that what we say agrees with his Word (Matt. > 18:6). > > > > There were three recurring themes throughout the > Vegetarianism Quotes: > > evolution as an accepted fact, animals being equal > to man, and the > > eating of meat being immoral. I would like to > compare these ideas > with > > Scripture and see if they meet the test of truth. > I pray that you > will > > have an open mind and heart to this discussion, as > I have spent > several > > hours praying about and preparing this letter, and > my desire is to > > speak > > with love. > > > > How do the teachings of evolution compare to the > Word of God? To > > begin, > > evolution negates the clear teaching of the > creation account in > > Genesis. > > Instead, it tells us that if God was at all > involved in the > > evolutionary > > process, he is imperfect because he could not > create correctly the > > first > > time. If God is imperfect, however, how can he be > God? Evolution > also > > teaches that there were millions of years of death > and suffering in > the > > world before Adam came upon the scene. Romans > 5:12 tells us, however, > > that death is the result of Adam's sin. If death > is just a natural > > circumstance according to evolution, then it is > not the effect of sin, > > and therefore we do not need a Saviour to deliver > us from sin. > === message truncated === Take Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile./maildemo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2005 Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 I'm by no means all that religious either, but I do believe in God. This letter left me speechless also. If we want to throw the religious aspect in there, I don't think God ever intended for us to overpopulate the earth, deplete our resources, and ruin our environment......and essentually that is what is happening to our planet. Factory Farms are a big factor in our environment being ruined. Being Vegy makes sense from an enviromental stand point. My husband works with a guy that is Indian. He and his wife are vegetarian as part of their religion. There are a lot of religions on this planet and they all have a different view. So is their religion wrong? This woman thinks our views are narrow and we are not open minded. She talks about truth.....well the truth is open to interpretation. The Bible is open to interpretation. Everybody has a different opinion. My husband was raised Catholic. He is a geologist. He works for a large company as an enviromental consultant. Being a man of science and being raised Catholic are definately a mix of view in and of itself. He sees everyday what we are doing to our ground water and our planet. Now how does one get around the fact that we see report after report about how red meat causes cancer? My OPINION is that this woman is way off. Kelly The Isolas <isolafamily wrote: Wow.after reading the letter written to you, I'm speechless. It saddens me to see that people can feel so strongly about something simply because it was written in the Bible. I'm by no means religious, but I was raised Catholic, and my parents are still very religious. I think even THEY would have a problem accepting everything that woman wrote. It's obvious that she put a lot of effort into that letter, but it just shows how far people are willing to go to make excuses for their actions. First of all, maybe I'm wrong, but I have a feeling that factory farms weren't around when the Bible was written. And just because we have " dominion " over the animals, it doesn't make it ok to do whatever we please. Also, she wrote about animal sacrifices in the Bible. People who do that today in the U.S. have gone to jail for animal cruelty. Just because something was acceptable thousands of years ago doesn't make it ok to do now, especially to such extremes. I'm very upset after reading that, not only because she feels so strongly about it, but because she feels that " Buddhists and evolutionists, a lesbian, and an atheist anthropologist " aren't people we should be listening to, simply because they aren't practicing what the Bible says. I guess it just goes to show that some people refuse to change their beliefs, regardless of who or what it helps. Katherine teresa aldrich [taldrich] Saturday, January 22, 2005 6:15 PM a response to the vegetarian quotes Hi, I am that vegan who lives in cattle country in Missouri. I homeschool my kids not for religious reasons but because the local schools are pitiful. When I read the vegetarian quotes on the vegetarian parents emails the other day I forwarded them to several people, the local home school group included. I really touched a nerve in at least one of the members. I have enclosed my response to her letter that she sent me after reading the quotes. Upon reading her letter I was reminded that animal rights have a long way to go in this country and it will take many genarations to get there. We MUST speak for those who cannot. Teresa taldrich Re: [stClairCHEF] off topic January 22, 2005 4:52:11 PM CST s.west Hi, I forwarded the vegetarian quotes to many people I know, not just the CHEF group. It never occurred to me that the integrity of the authors of the quotes would come into question by anyone. I am sorry if I have upset you. I have included a couple of links to some Christian Vegetarian websites that may communicate the vegetarian standpoint to someone as deeply Christian as yourself. http://www.johndear.org/ http://www.jesusveg.com/ Peace, Teresa On Jan 21, 2005, at 2:02 PM, September West wrote: > Hi Teresa, > > I carefully read over all the Vegetarianism Quotes that you shared with > us and would like to share some thoughts with you. (This is a private > reply to you and not to the entire group.) I also agree that hunting > animals for sport is wrong and I respect your decision to refrain from > eating meat, but I do question your reasoning for this decision. I > noticed that all of your quotes were from well-known people, but only > one was from the Bible. The passage in question, Ecclesiates 3:18-19, > is actually Solomon's record of the reasoning of a man living without > God, in contrast to the later chapters of this book, which reflect > Christian reasoning. It is also interesting to note that among those > quoted in the vegetarian statements, there were several Buddhists and > evolutionists, a lesbian, and an atheist anthropologist who was > instrumental in the founding of Planned Parenthood. What concerns me > most is that although none of these people have a Biblical worldview, > you agree with their statements. A couple of years ago, I was > challenged to be sure that my thinking was in line with the Word of > God. > As I dug into the Bible, I found that in many areas, I was not thinking > like a Christian, but had accepted the teachings of secular society. > As > homeschool moms, it is especially important that we are imparting truth > to our children, and not merely the opinions of men. Since we will > give > an account for every idle word that we speak (Matt. 12:6), and Jesus > has > a special love for children (Mark 10:14), we need to take special care > that what we say agrees with his Word (Matt. 18:6). > > There were three recurring themes throughout the Vegetarianism Quotes: > evolution as an accepted fact, animals being equal to man, and the > eating of meat being immoral. I would like to compare these ideas with > Scripture and see if they meet the test of truth. I pray that you will > have an open mind and heart to this discussion, as I have spent several > hours praying about and preparing this letter, and my desire is to > speak > with love. > > How do the teachings of evolution compare to the Word of God? To > begin, > evolution negates the clear teaching of the creation account in > Genesis. > Instead, it tells us that if God was at all involved in the > evolutionary > process, he is imperfect because he could not create correctly the > first > time. If God is imperfect, however, how can he be God? Evolution also > teaches that there were millions of years of death and suffering in the > world before Adam came upon the scene. Romans 5:12 tells us, however, > that death is the result of Adam's sin. If death is just a natural > circumstance according to evolution, then it is not the effect of sin, > and therefore we do not need a Saviour to deliver us from sin. > Evolution, therefore, is diametrically opposed to the Gospel. Although > this is the most important reason why evolution is an unbiblical idea, > there are many others, all of which can creep into our teaching on > other > subjects. An excellent resource for more information on this topic is > www.answersingenesis.org. I also have some wonderful videos that I > could give you regarding creation and evolution from Dr. Kent Hovind, > who will be speaking at the St. Louis Science Center next month. > > Let's look at the second recurring theme, animals being equal to man. > God gave life to both animals and man, however only man was made in > God' > s image (Gen. 1:24-28). In this same passage, man was also given > dominion over all of the animals. Genesis 2:7 also tells us that God > gave man a soul, but this is never said of animals. Jesus taught that > man was superior to the animals in Luke 12:6-7 when he said, " Are not > five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten > before God? But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. > Fear > not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows. " This same > message is repeated by our Lord in Matthew 6:26, " Behold the fowls of > the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; > yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than > they? " God required capital punishment for the murder of humans is > Genesis 9:3, but no such commandment is required for the slaying of > animals. This command is also present in the New Testament, Romans > 13:4. > > If animals and man are distinct creations, then, is it immoral for man > to kill and eat animals? Although not for the purpose of providing > food, God himself killed the first animal when he provided " coats of > skins " as a covering for Adam and Eve (Gen. 3:21). God also apparently > commanded Adam and his family to continue sacrifices as a picture of > the > forthcoming Messiah since we are told of Abel presenting " the firstling > of his flock and of the fat thereof " to the Lord, who " had respect unto > Abel and his offering " , but not unto Cain's offering of the " fruit of > the ground (Gen. 4:4) " While at this time man was under instruction > to > eat only plants and seeds (Gen. 1:29), God removed this restriction > after the flood when he told Noah, " Every moving thing that liveth > shall > be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. > (Gen. 9:3) " > > God established the system of sacrifices in the Old Testament, and the > animals which were slain were then used to provide skins for the > covering of the tabernacle and food for the tabernacle and temple > priests (Lev. 10:12-13). At the dedication of the temple, King Solomon > sacrificed " twenty and two thousand oxen and an hundred and twenty > thousand sheep " and God blessed the nation of Israel for this act of > worship (II Chron. 7:5-10). Although some animals, i.e. pork, > shellfish, etc., were prohibited to be eaten by God's people in the Old > Testament (Lev. 11), he removed this restriction in Acts 10:10-13. > Nearly all of the great heroes of the faith mentioned in Hebrews 11 are > spoken of as having eaten meat. In one of the most compelling cases, > Abraham killed a calf from his herd and had it prepared for the Lord > and > two of his angels to eat when they appeared unto him (Gen. 18:8). In > the New Testament, the Lord Jesus Christ condoned the killing of > animals > for food and ate meat several times. These incidents include > instructing Peter to catch a large multitude of fish (Luke 5), eating > fish at the feeding of the 5,000 (Matt. 14:19), the feeding of the > 4,000 > (Matt. 15:36), and twice with the disciples in his resurrected body > (Luke 24:42-43 and John 21:5-14). Jesus also kept the Passover in > Matthew 24:19, commanding his disciples to prepare for the meal by > killing a spotless lamb. Was it cruel and immoral for Jesus to condone > the killing of fish and lamb for food? If He is the Son of God, the > Word clothed in human flesh " who did no sin " (1 Pet. 2:22), then this > cannot be. > > Romans 14:2-3 teaches that as Christians we are at liberty to either > eat > or not eat meat. Even though eating meat was looked down upon by some > New Testament Christians because the meat had been offered to idols > before being sold in the marketplace, Paul clearly states that while > those who do not eat meat have that freedom, they are not to judge > those > who do. God received them both. " But meat commendeth us not to God: > for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are > we the worse. (1 Cor. 8:8) " By contrast, religious leaders who > command > others to abstain from meats are called " seducing spirits " speaking > " doctrines of devils... For every creature of God is good, and nothing > to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is > sanctified > by the word of God and prayer (1 Tim. 4:1-5). " Therefore, if we choose > to abstain from any activity which is not judged sinful by God's Word, > (including eating meat), it should be because of reasoning that agrees > with the Bible (staying in good health, being good stewards of our > money, etc.) not by the unbiblical opinions of men. " Beware lest any > man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition > of > men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. " > Colossians 2:8. This has been my purpose in writing to you-not to > dissuade you from being a vegetarian or to start a debate, but to > lovingly challenge you, as I have been, to see everything through the > light of God's holy, infallible Word. If you have any questions, or > would like the videotapes I spoke about earlier, please don't hesitate > to contact me. > > In Christ's love, > September West > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2005 Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 Even though this takes us a little off-topic, I feel compelled to point out that the Bible as it currently stands has been rewritten, re-edited, and re-translated many times in its history. As a result, the majority of Christians understand that it is the spirit of those words, taken as a whole story, that form the basis of their religion. There are millions of Christians who do not believe that each and every (translated) word should be taken literally the way this person has. It is possible to be a good Christian and a good vegetarian simultaneously. Liz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2005 Report Share Posted January 25, 2005 I never actually read past the beginning of her letter until I started seeing the responses on the list. People like this do truly intrigue me. She has been very selective in choosing quotes, often out of context, that support what she desires to be supported while ignoring anything that doesn't. One of the most curious concepts to me is her statement that G-d must by definition be perfect. > If God is imperfect, however, how can he be God? Being Jewish myself, I am completely comfortable with the idea of an imperfect G-d and don't understand how anyone could read the bible and conclude there is perfection suggested anywhere. She quotes from Noah in several spots, but ignores that the flood supposedly happened because of G-d's anger over the imperfection of his creation as did Sodom and Gemorrah. She quotes G-d as approving the eating of flesh to Noah but cuts the quote short before the prohibition of eating blood (kind of reminiscent of " The Merchant of Venice " ). She also neglects the context which places this " approval " as actually a concession from a frustrated G-d who has not been able to control the eating habits of people and so relents on the " veg " rule. In Judaism there is a base concept of perfecting or repairing the world that has been given to our charge, which presumes that creation was imperfect. Vegetarianism fits quite nicely into this, particularly if you view the meat eating in the context of a concession and departure from the original ideal state, an imperfection. Enough to make you scratch your head. Phil Welsher On Jan 22, 2005, at 6:15 PM, teresa aldrich wrote: > > > Hi, > I am that vegan who lives in cattle country in Missouri. I homeschool > my kids not for religious reasons but because the local schools are > pitiful. When I read the vegetarian quotes on the vegetarian parents > emails the other day I forwarded them to several people, the local home > school group included. I really touched a nerve in at least one of the > members. I have enclosed my response to her letter that she sent me > after reading the quotes. > Upon reading her letter I was reminded that animal rights have a long > way to go in this country and it will take many genarations to get > there. > We MUST speak for those who cannot. > Teresa > > taldrich > Re: [stClairCHEF] off topic > January 22, 2005 4:52:11 PM CST > s.west > > Hi, > I forwarded the vegetarian quotes to many people I know, not just the > CHEF group. It never occurred to me that the integrity of the authors > of the quotes would come into question by anyone. > I am sorry if I have upset you. I have included a couple of links to > some Christian Vegetarian websites that may communicate the vegetarian > standpoint to someone as deeply Christian as yourself. > > http://www.johndear.org/ > > http://www.jesusveg.com/ > > Peace, > Teresa > > On Jan 21, 2005, at 2:02 PM, September West wrote: > >> Hi Teresa, >> >> I carefully read over all the Vegetarianism Quotes that you shared >> with >> us and would like to share some thoughts with you. (This is a private >> reply to you and not to the entire group.) I also agree that hunting >> animals for sport is wrong and I respect your decision to refrain from >> eating meat, but I do question your reasoning for this decision. I >> noticed that all of your quotes were from well-known people, but only >> one was from the Bible. The passage in question, Ecclesiates 3:18-19, >> is actually Solomon's record of the reasoning of a man living without >> God, in contrast to the later chapters of this book, which reflect >> Christian reasoning. It is also interesting to note that among those >> quoted in the vegetarian statements, there were several Buddhists and >> evolutionists, a lesbian, and an atheist anthropologist who was >> instrumental in the founding of Planned Parenthood. What concerns me >> most is that although none of these people have a Biblical worldview, >> you agree with their statements. A couple of years ago, I was >> challenged to be sure that my thinking was in line with the Word of >> God. >> As I dug into the Bible, I found that in many areas, I was not >> thinking >> like a Christian, but had accepted the teachings of secular society. >> As >> homeschool moms, it is especially important that we are imparting >> truth >> to our children, and not merely the opinions of men. Since we will >> give >> an account for every idle word that we speak (Matt. 12:6), and Jesus >> has >> a special love for children (Mark 10:14), we need to take special care >> that what we say agrees with his Word (Matt. 18:6). >> >> There were three recurring themes throughout the Vegetarianism Quotes: >> evolution as an accepted fact, animals being equal to man, and the >> eating of meat being immoral. I would like to compare these ideas >> with >> Scripture and see if they meet the test of truth. I pray that you >> will >> have an open mind and heart to this discussion, as I have spent >> several >> hours praying about and preparing this letter, and my desire is to >> speak >> with love. >> >> How do the teachings of evolution compare to the Word of God? To >> begin, >> evolution negates the clear teaching of the creation account in >> Genesis. >> Instead, it tells us that if God was at all involved in the >> evolutionary >> process, he is imperfect because he could not create correctly the >> first >> time. If God is imperfect, however, how can he be God? Evolution >> also >> teaches that there were millions of years of death and suffering in >> the >> world before Adam came upon the scene. Romans 5:12 tells us, however, >> that death is the result of Adam's sin. If death is just a natural >> circumstance according to evolution, then it is not the effect of sin, >> and therefore we do not need a Saviour to deliver us from sin. >> Evolution, therefore, is diametrically opposed to the Gospel. >> Although >> this is the most important reason why evolution is an unbiblical idea, >> there are many others, all of which can creep into our teaching on >> other >> subjects. An excellent resource for more information on this topic is >> www.answersingenesis.org. I also have some wonderful videos that I >> could give you regarding creation and evolution from Dr. Kent Hovind, >> who will be speaking at the St. Louis Science Center next month. >> >> Let's look at the second recurring theme, animals being equal to man. >> God gave life to both animals and man, however only man was made in >> God' >> s image (Gen. 1:24-28). In this same passage, man was also given >> dominion over all of the animals. Genesis 2:7 also tells us that God >> gave man a soul, but this is never said of animals. Jesus taught that >> man was superior to the animals in Luke 12:6-7 when he said, " Are not >> five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten >> before God? But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. >> Fear >> not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows. " This same >> message is repeated by our Lord in Matthew 6:26, " Behold the fowls of >> the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into >> barns; >> yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than >> they? " God required capital punishment for the murder of humans is >> Genesis 9:3, but no such commandment is required for the slaying of >> animals. This command is also present in the New Testament, Romans >> 13:4. >> >> If animals and man are distinct creations, then, is it immoral for man >> to kill and eat animals? Although not for the purpose of providing >> food, God himself killed the first animal when he provided " coats of >> skins " as a covering for Adam and Eve (Gen. 3:21). God also >> apparently >> commanded Adam and his family to continue sacrifices as a picture of >> the >> forthcoming Messiah since we are told of Abel presenting " the >> firstling >> of his flock and of the fat thereof " to the Lord, who " had respect >> unto >> Abel and his offering " , but not unto Cain's offering of the " fruit of >> the ground (Gen. 4:4) " While at this time man was under instruction >> to >> eat only plants and seeds (Gen. 1:29), God removed this restriction >> after the flood when he told Noah, " Every moving thing that liveth >> shall >> be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. >> (Gen. 9:3) " >> >> God established the system of sacrifices in the Old Testament, and the >> animals which were slain were then used to provide skins for the >> covering of the tabernacle and food for the tabernacle and temple >> priests (Lev. 10:12-13). At the dedication of the temple, King >> Solomon >> sacrificed " twenty and two thousand oxen and an hundred and twenty >> thousand sheep " and God blessed the nation of Israel for this act of >> worship (II Chron. 7:5-10). Although some animals, i.e. pork, >> shellfish, etc., were prohibited to be eaten by God's people in the >> Old >> Testament (Lev. 11), he removed this restriction in Acts 10:10-13. >> Nearly all of the great heroes of the faith mentioned in Hebrews 11 >> are >> spoken of as having eaten meat. In one of the most compelling cases, >> Abraham killed a calf from his herd and had it prepared for the Lord >> and >> two of his angels to eat when they appeared unto him (Gen. 18:8). In >> the New Testament, the Lord Jesus Christ condoned the killing of >> animals >> for food and ate meat several times. These incidents include >> instructing Peter to catch a large multitude of fish (Luke 5), eating >> fish at the feeding of the 5,000 (Matt. 14:19), the feeding of the >> 4,000 >> (Matt. 15:36), and twice with the disciples in his resurrected body >> (Luke 24:42-43 and John 21:5-14). Jesus also kept the Passover in >> Matthew 24:19, commanding his disciples to prepare for the meal by >> killing a spotless lamb. Was it cruel and immoral for Jesus to >> condone >> the killing of fish and lamb for food? If He is the Son of God, the >> Word clothed in human flesh " who did no sin " (1 Pet. 2:22), then this >> cannot be. >> >> Romans 14:2-3 teaches that as Christians we are at liberty to either >> eat >> or not eat meat. Even though eating meat was looked down upon by some >> New Testament Christians because the meat had been offered to idols >> before being sold in the marketplace, Paul clearly states that while >> those who do not eat meat have that freedom, they are not to judge >> those >> who do. God received them both. " But meat commendeth us not to God: >> for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are >> we the worse. (1 Cor. 8:8) " By contrast, religious leaders who >> command >> others to abstain from meats are called " seducing spirits " speaking >> " doctrines of devils... For every creature of God is good, and nothing >> to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is >> sanctified >> by the word of God and prayer (1 Tim. 4:1-5). " Therefore, if we >> choose >> to abstain from any activity which is not judged sinful by God's Word, >> (including eating meat), it should be because of reasoning that agrees >> with the Bible (staying in good health, being good stewards of our >> money, etc.) not by the unbiblical opinions of men. " Beware lest any >> man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition >> of >> men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. " >> Colossians 2:8. This has been my purpose in writing to you-not to >> dissuade you from being a vegetarian or to start a debate, but to >> lovingly challenge you, as I have been, to see everything through the >> light of God's holy, infallible Word. If you have any questions, or >> would like the videotapes I spoke about earlier, please don't hesitate >> to contact me. >> >> In Christ's love, >> September West >> > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2005 Report Share Posted January 25, 2005 Teresa, You have my sympathy. And empathy. My advice to you is to just walk away from that argument. I don't want to sound dismissive, but after 20 years or so of trying to reason with well meaning friends and acquaintenaces who have biblically closed minds ( " God said it, I believe it, that settles it " ), it's better to agree to disagree and move on. One interesting point though is the question that was raised about animals being equal to humans. I think Peter Singer addressed that topic nicely in the beginning of his book Animal Liberation. Singer explains that " The basic principle of equality does not require equal or identical treatment; it requires equal consideration " ... and " the taking into account of the interests of the being, whatever those interests may be ... must ... be extended to all beings ... human or nonhuman. " - Alan , teresa aldrich <taldrich@u...> wrote: > > Hi, > I am that vegan who lives in cattle country in Missouri. I homeschool > my kids not for religious reasons but because the local schools are > pitiful. When I read the vegetarian quotes on the vegetarian parents > emails the other day I forwarded them to several people, the local home > school group included. I really touched a nerve in at least one of the > members. I have enclosed my response to her letter that she sent me > after reading the quotes. > Upon reading her letter I was reminded that animal rights have a long > way to go in this country and it will take many genarations to get > there. > We MUST speak for those who cannot. > Teresa > > taldrich@u... > Re: [stClairCHEF] off topic > January 22, 2005 4:52:11 PM CST > s.west@c... > > Hi, > I forwarded the vegetarian quotes to many people I know, not just the > CHEF group. It never occurred to me that the integrity of the authors > of the quotes would come into question by anyone. > I am sorry if I have upset you. I have included a couple of links to > some Christian Vegetarian websites that may communicate the vegetarian > standpoint to someone as deeply Christian as yourself. > > http://www.johndear.org/ > > http://www.jesusveg.com/ > > Peace, > Teresa > > On Jan 21, 2005, at 2:02 PM, September West wrote: > > > Hi Teresa, > > > > I carefully read over all the Vegetarianism Quotes that you shared with > > us and would like to share some thoughts with you. (This is a private > > reply to you and not to the entire group.) I also agree that hunting > > animals for sport is wrong and I respect your decision to refrain from > > eating meat, but I do question your reasoning for this decision. I > > noticed that all of your quotes were from well-known people, but only > > one was from the Bible. The passage in question, Ecclesiates 3:18-19, > > is actually Solomon's record of the reasoning of a man living without > > God, in contrast to the later chapters of this book, which reflect > > Christian reasoning. It is also interesting to note that among those > > quoted in the vegetarian statements, there were several Buddhists and > > evolutionists, a lesbian, and an atheist anthropologist who was > > instrumental in the founding of Planned Parenthood. What concerns me > > most is that although none of these people have a Biblical worldview, > > you agree with their statements. A couple of years ago, I was > > challenged to be sure that my thinking was in line with the Word of > > God. > > As I dug into the Bible, I found that in many areas, I was not thinking > > like a Christian, but had accepted the teachings of secular society. > > As > > homeschool moms, it is especially important that we are imparting truth > > to our children, and not merely the opinions of men. Since we will > > give > > an account for every idle word that we speak (Matt. 12:6), and Jesus > > has > > a special love for children (Mark 10:14), we need to take special care > > that what we say agrees with his Word (Matt. 18:6). > > > > There were three recurring themes throughout the Vegetarianism Quotes: > > evolution as an accepted fact, animals being equal to man, and the > > eating of meat being immoral. I would like to compare these ideas with > > Scripture and see if they meet the test of truth. I pray that you will > > have an open mind and heart to this discussion, as I have spent several > > hours praying about and preparing this letter, and my desire is to > > speak > > with love. > > > > How do the teachings of evolution compare to the Word of God? To > > begin, > > evolution negates the clear teaching of the creation account in > > Genesis. > > Instead, it tells us that if God was at all involved in the > > evolutionary > > process, he is imperfect because he could not create correctly the > > first > > time. If God is imperfect, however, how can he be God? Evolution also > > teaches that there were millions of years of death and suffering in the > > world before Adam came upon the scene. Romans 5:12 tells us, however, > > that death is the result of Adam's sin. If death is just a natural > > circumstance according to evolution, then it is not the effect of sin, > > and therefore we do not need a Saviour to deliver us from sin. > > Evolution, therefore, is diametrically opposed to the Gospel. Although > > this is the most important reason why evolution is an unbiblical idea, > > there are many others, all of which can creep into our teaching on > > other > > subjects. An excellent resource for more information on this topic is > > www.answersingenesis.org. I also have some wonderful videos that I > > could give you regarding creation and evolution from Dr. Kent Hovind, > > who will be speaking at the St. Louis Science Center next month. > > > > Let's look at the second recurring theme, animals being equal to man. > > God gave life to both animals and man, however only man was made in > > God' > > s image (Gen. 1:24-28). In this same passage, man was also given > > dominion over all of the animals. Genesis 2:7 also tells us that God > > gave man a soul, but this is never said of animals. Jesus taught that > > man was superior to the animals in Luke 12:6-7 when he said, " Are not > > five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten > > before God? But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. > > Fear > > not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows. " This same > > message is repeated by our Lord in Matthew 6:26, " Behold the fowls of > > the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; > > yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than > > they? " God required capital punishment for the murder of humans is > > Genesis 9:3, but no such commandment is required for the slaying of > > animals. This command is also present in the New Testament, Romans > > 13:4. > > > > If animals and man are distinct creations, then, is it immoral for man > > to kill and eat animals? Although not for the purpose of providing > > food, God himself killed the first animal when he provided " coats of > > skins " as a covering for Adam and Eve (Gen. 3:21). God also apparently > > commanded Adam and his family to continue sacrifices as a picture of > > the > > forthcoming Messiah since we are told of Abel presenting " the firstling > > of his flock and of the fat thereof " to the Lord, who " had respect unto > > Abel and his offering " , but not unto Cain's offering of the " fruit of > > the ground (Gen. 4:4) " While at this time man was under instruction > > to > > eat only plants and seeds (Gen. 1:29), God removed this restriction > > after the flood when he told Noah, " Every moving thing that liveth > > shall > > be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. > > (Gen. 9:3) " > > > > God established the system of sacrifices in the Old Testament, and the > > animals which were slain were then used to provide skins for the > > covering of the tabernacle and food for the tabernacle and temple > > priests (Lev. 10:12-13). At the dedication of the temple, King Solomon > > sacrificed " twenty and two thousand oxen and an hundred and twenty > > thousand sheep " and God blessed the nation of Israel for this act of > > worship (II Chron. 7:5-10). Although some animals, i.e. pork, > > shellfish, etc., were prohibited to be eaten by God's people in the Old > > Testament (Lev. 11), he removed this restriction in Acts 10:10-13. > > Nearly all of the great heroes of the faith mentioned in Hebrews 11 are > > spoken of as having eaten meat. In one of the most compelling cases, > > Abraham killed a calf from his herd and had it prepared for the Lord > > and > > two of his angels to eat when they appeared unto him (Gen. 18:8). In > > the New Testament, the Lord Jesus Christ condoned the killing of > > animals > > for food and ate meat several times. These incidents include > > instructing Peter to catch a large multitude of fish (Luke 5), eating > > fish at the feeding of the 5,000 (Matt. 14:19), the feeding of the > > 4,000 > > (Matt. 15:36), and twice with the disciples in his resurrected body > > (Luke 24:42-43 and John 21:5-14). Jesus also kept the Passover in > > Matthew 24:19, commanding his disciples to prepare for the meal by > > killing a spotless lamb. Was it cruel and immoral for Jesus to condone > > the killing of fish and lamb for food? If He is the Son of God, the > > Word clothed in human flesh " who did no sin " (1 Pet. 2:22), then this > > cannot be. > > > > Romans 14:2-3 teaches that as Christians we are at liberty to either > > eat > > or not eat meat. Even though eating meat was looked down upon by some > > New Testament Christians because the meat had been offered to idols > > before being sold in the marketplace, Paul clearly states that while > > those who do not eat meat have that freedom, they are not to judge > > those > > who do. God received them both. " But meat commendeth us not to God: > > for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are > > we the worse. (1 Cor. 8:8) " By contrast, religious leaders who > > command > > others to abstain from meats are called " seducing spirits " speaking > > " doctrines of devils... For every creature of God is good, and nothing > > to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is > > sanctified > > by the word of God and prayer (1 Tim. 4:1-5). " Therefore, if we choose > > to abstain from any activity which is not judged sinful by God's Word, > > (including eating meat), it should be because of reasoning that agrees > > with the Bible (staying in good health, being good stewards of our > > money, etc.) not by the unbiblical opinions of men. " Beware lest any > > man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition > > of > > men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. " > > Colossians 2:8. This has been my purpose in writing to you-not to > > dissuade you from being a vegetarian or to start a debate, but to > > lovingly challenge you, as I have been, to see everything through the > > light of God's holy, infallible Word. If you have any questions, or > > would like the videotapes I spoke about earlier, please don't hesitate > > to contact me. > > > > In Christ's love, > > September West > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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