Guest guest Posted January 10, 2003 Report Share Posted January 10, 2003 I've just realised that 3 members of the group have left. I can only assume that this is due to Ron's postings. I hope that no more of you leave because i believe that this group could be really good. Please stay - i have learnt my lesson and will be tougher on people who offend in future. I'm new to this - i've never run a group before. Pat, please could you explain to me what flaming is? Laura (uk) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2003 Report Share Posted January 10, 2003 That's really too bad - I'm so sorry to hear! :=( But hey, all the rest of us are staying - right guys???? As for flaming, I don't have a handy dandy cyberspeak dictionary on me, but I'd say a flame was one of those impassioned messages that attacked a person or a person's values in lieu of rational comment or debate. Probably derived from 'flame-thrower' (flammenwerser), don't you think? Anyway, I am reminded of a personal experience, Laura - very recent and very uncomfortable. In November I started a small group - Townhounds - intended for people who had so-called hunting dogs or dogs perceived as hunting dogs *as pets* in cities - the problems of coping with prejudice (although I didn't put it that way) against them and the problems of training or retraining dogs as cityslickers, finding dog-friendly zones, etc. etc. I don't know another like it and I thought it might fill a gap. I didn't think I needed to say that people who were averse to 'hunting dogs' as pets and in cities weren't welcome. I didn't think to say that I was opposed to hunting - I thought it was obvious ;=) (nothing is obvious, of course). I hadn't even the excuse that it was my first list. So me and my beagles threw ourselves onto the net and had all of ten or a dozen members when along came someone who hunted her dogs and was keen to tell us all, in gory detail, about what they did when they caught the little critters they chased, how we should *all* be letting our dogs do what is natural or we had no business owning them, etc. and and and and - well, you get the picture. Tact didn't work. People left ;=( I have now some eight members who are bravely soldiering (unfortunate word) on, but . . . Sorry for that ramble - but I do feel strongly about people whose aim seems to be to destroy what they touch. Anyway, that's not going to happen here! This is a *great* idea, Laura, and I'm grateful for it. Thank you for starting something wonderful ;=) best, pat " Laura " wrote: > I've just realised that 3 members of the group have left. I can > only assume that this is due to Ron's postings. I hope that no more > of you leave because i believe that this group could be really > good. Please stay - i have learnt my lesson and will be tougher on > people who offend in future. I'm new to this - i've never run a > group before. Pat, please could you explain to me what flaming is? > > Laura (uk) > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2003 Report Share Posted January 10, 2003 Laura <child_of_the_80s [child_of_the_80s] Friday, January 10, 2003 11:23 AM re: members leaving >>...explain to me what flaming is?<< Flaming is a term invented for the internet. It's the situation where a disagreement occurs between members of a listserver, and the insults start flying hot and heavy. Usually name calling and leaving the list is not far away for the offenders. Except for rare cases, it usually solves itself. In my experience with , there is often little the moderator can do except to do what you have already done. Most people know when they've crossed the line and are quick to apologize. If they don't, then the moderator must ban them from the list. I hope this helps. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2003 Report Share Posted January 10, 2003 >That's really too bad - I'm so sorry to hear! :=( But hey, all the rest of >us are staying - right guys???? I have no intention of leaving. I haven't followed the most recent problem here, I've been really busy. But I need some kind of list like this and I'm going to stay. >As for flaming, I don't have a handy dandy cyberspeak dictionary on me, but >I'd say a flame was one of those impassioned messages that attacked a person >or a person's values in lieu of rational comment or debate. Probably derived >from 'flame-thrower' (flammenwerser), don't you think? yes. It's a personal attack or public scolding. >Anyway, I am reminded of a personal experience, Laura - very recent and very >uncomfortable. In November I started a small group - Townhounds - intended >for people who had so-called hunting dogs or dogs perceived as hunting dogs >*as pets* in cities - the problems of coping with prejudice (although I >didn't put it that way) against them and the problems of training or >retraining dogs as cityslickers, finding dog-friendly zones, etc. etc. I've recently also had some problems with people who seem to just want to see how much abuse and nastiness they can get away with before they are thrown off. <sigh> But I'm no pansy when it comes to conflict. And I've been known to shoot flames out of my keyboard from time to time, though it takes a lot of provocation. My basic suggestion is this: be clear and up front about the fact that no flames or disrespect will be tolerated. When someone behaves badly put them on moderation. What that means is their posts come to you first and then you can approve or reject them. If the person calms down after a while take them off moderation. If they do it twice (or some number that you decide) ask them to leave and if they won't, then them and put them on the " banned " list. I find that when I moderate someone what happens next depends on the person. Some people are astonished and apologize and shape up. Usually they are very nice people and didn't realize what they were doing. Others will get mad and stomp off. It's best to let them go. People are basically very nice, nearly always. I moderate 11 lists and I don't have to do any of the above more than once or twice a year, though it's been bad lately--maybe the moon is in the wrong sign or something :-/ Anyway, I'm glad you started this list and, as I said, I'm going to stay. Susan -- --------- Please visit my website: http://members.cox.net/sbcogan Also, check out an excerpt of " Jubilee, " which will be published in the next few months: http://members.cox.net/sbcogan/writing.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2003 Report Share Posted January 11, 2003 Susan: I feel that I've just had the good fortune of evesdropping on what people are saying about me behind my back after they think I'm gone. I didn't say I was leaving, I said I would leave if my messages were censored. My feeling on this is that leaving a group I don't like or have no interest in is very easy. All I have to do is click my mouse and go somewhere else. I believe the more difficult thing is to stay and work out effective communication or achieve a higher level of intimacy with a person or group that I would otherwise be alienated from. I've clicked off many diet groups, self-righteous groups, controlling groups, and shallow groups. I'm staying in this one--so far--because I hope to find one or more persons here who have ideas and experiences worth my time. Or, vice versa, someone here that I can help with my experience. Otherwise, I'm wasting my time here and I may as well go somewhere else in the world and look for my type of people. For example, I no longer attempt to talk with smokers about smoking. It's hopeless. I no longer talk with alcoholics about drinking--that's a waste of time. And I don't talk with people who think that I will eventually see that they are " right. " What I am trying to do is share my experience, strength and hope with others who have experience, strength and hope that I can benefit from. If I don't find that, it's easy to click off. Ron McClure --- Susan Cogan <susan-brassfield wrote: > >That's really too bad - I'm so sorry to hear! :=( > But hey, all the rest of > >us are staying - right guys???? > > > I have no intention of leaving. I haven't followed > the most recent > problem here, I've been really busy. But I need some > kind of list > like this and I'm going to stay. > > > >As for flaming, I don't have a handy dandy > cyberspeak dictionary on me, but > >I'd say a flame was one of those impassioned > messages that attacked a person > >or a person's values in lieu of rational comment or > debate. Probably derived > >from 'flame-thrower' (flammenwerser), don't you > think? > > yes. It's a personal attack or public scolding. > > > >Anyway, I am reminded of a personal experience, > Laura - very recent and very > >uncomfortable. In November I started a small group > - Townhounds - intended > >for people who had so-called hunting dogs or dogs > perceived as hunting dogs > >*as pets* in cities - the problems of coping with > prejudice (although I > >didn't put it that way) against them and the > problems of training or > >retraining dogs as cityslickers, finding > dog-friendly zones, etc. etc. > > I've recently also had some problems with people who > seem to just > want to see how much abuse and nastiness they can > get away with > before they are thrown off. <sigh> > > But I'm no pansy when it comes to conflict. And I've > been known to > shoot flames out of my keyboard from time to time, > though it takes a > lot of provocation. > > My basic suggestion is this: be clear and up front > about the fact > that no flames or disrespect will be tolerated. When > someone behaves > badly put them on moderation. What that means is > their posts come to > you first and then you can approve or reject them. > If the person > calms down after a while take them off moderation. > If they do it > twice (or some number that you decide) ask them to > leave and if they > won't, then them and put them on the > " banned " list. > > I find that when I moderate someone what happens > next depends on the > person. Some people are astonished and apologize and > shape up. > Usually they are very nice people and didn't realize > what they were > doing. Others will get mad and stomp off. It's best > to let them go. > > People are basically very nice, nearly always. I > moderate 11 lists > and I don't have to do any of the above more than > once or twice a > year, though it's been bad lately--maybe the moon is > in the wrong > sign or something :-/ > > Anyway, I'm glad you started this list and, as I > said, I'm going to stay. > > Susan > -- > --------- > Please visit my website: > http://members.cox.net/sbcogan > > Also, check out an excerpt of " Jubilee, " which will > be published in > the next few months: > http://members.cox.net/sbcogan/writing.html > Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2003 Report Share Posted January 11, 2003 Dave: I believe my " flaming incident " was caused by sugar withdrawals. In fact, on January 6, I renounced alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, sugar, flour, animal protein, fat and oil, salt and coffee! Can you imagine the hellatious withdrawals I must have had? I believe I made a good point or two, in addition, however, and I have not changed my opinion on anything I've said. Ron McClure --- daveo <daveo wrote: > > Laura <child_of_the_80s > [child_of_the_80s] > Friday, January 10, 2003 11:23 AM > > re: members leaving > > >>...explain to me what flaming is?<< > > Flaming is a term invented for the internet. It's > the situation where a > disagreement occurs between members of a listserver, > and the insults start > flying hot and heavy. Usually name calling and > leaving the list is not far > away for the offenders. Except for rare cases, it > usually solves itself. > > In my experience with , there is often > little the moderator can > do except to do what you have already done. Most > people know when they've > crossed the line and are quick to apologize. If > they don't, then the > moderator must ban them from the list. I hope this > helps. > > Dave > > > > > Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2003 Report Share Posted January 11, 2003 Ron, Thank you for staying in the group. Actually, I would suppose you've made more than " a good point or two, " but for me, it's not about being right or wrong. It's about being as accurate as I can be with the food/health facts I have to evaluate. I know we all have our own very personal truths about life. That's who we are! But, our truths are not always the same as someone else who believes much the same thing, and I learned years ago how to live peacefully with those differences. I had no expectation that you'd change any of you opinions. My only goal in this group is to offer over 20 years of experience being a veggie to those who are interested in hearing. Some that I write will be my opinion. Some will be facts. I'll let each reader decide how they will deal with each post. My opinions are always open for discussion. My interpretation of facts is likewise open to being challenged by new info. Rarely, can one be used to refute the other. I think that says it all. Dave >>Dave: I believe my " flaming incident " was caused by sugar withdrawals. In fact, on January 6, I renounced alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, sugar, flour, animal protein, fat and oil, salt and coffee! Can you imagine the hellatious withdrawals I must have had? I believe I made a good point or two, in addition, however, and I have not changed my opinion on anything I've said. Ron McClure<< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2003 Report Share Posted January 11, 2003 Ron, i am sorry that you feel this way. I knew that you were still with the group (and am glad about that) but had to respond to the fact that people were feeling unhappy with the " atmosphere " in the group and wre offended, so they had begun to leave. I do not want anyone to leave, including you, as i think the more people that are here, the more interesting and informative the conversation can be. > I've clicked off many diet groups, self-righteous > groups, controlling groups, and shallow groups. I believe that this group is not self righteous, controlling or shallow and that all group members have worthy and valid things to say which can benefit us. As i've said, i don't want to alienate you but at the same time i can't allow " flaming " . So i hope you can stay and, in your own words " work out effective communication " . Wishing you good health, Laura (uk) , Ron McClure <rlmftw> wrote: > Susan: > > I feel that I've just had the good fortune of > evesdropping on what people are saying about me behind > my back after they think I'm gone. I didn't say I was > leaving, I said I would leave if my messages were > censored. > > My feeling on this is that leaving a group I don't > like or have no interest in is very easy. All I have > to do is click my mouse and go somewhere else. I > believe the more difficult thing is to stay and work > out effective communication or achieve a higher level > of intimacy with a person or group that I would > otherwise be alienated from. > > I've clicked off many diet groups, self-righteous > groups, controlling groups, and shallow groups. I'm > staying in this one--so far--because I hope to find > one or more persons here who have ideas and > experiences worth my time. Or, vice versa, someone > here that I can help with my experience. Otherwise, > I'm wasting my time here and I may as well go > somewhere else in the world and look for my type of > people. > > For example, I no longer attempt to talk with smokers > about smoking. It's hopeless. I no longer talk with > alcoholics about drinking--that's a waste of time. > And I don't talk with people who think that I will > eventually see that they are " right. " What I am > trying to do is share my experience, strength and hope > with others who have experience, strength and hope > that I can benefit from. If I don't find that, it's > easy to click off. > > Ron McClure > --- Susan Cogan <susan-brassfield@o...> wrote: > > >That's really too bad - I'm so sorry to hear! :=( > > But hey, all the rest of > > >us are staying - right guys???? > > > > > > I have no intention of leaving. I haven't followed > > the most recent > > problem here, I've been really busy. But I need some > > kind of list > > like this and I'm going to stay. > > > > > > >As for flaming, I don't have a handy dandy > > cyberspeak dictionary on me, but > > >I'd say a flame was one of those impassioned > > messages that attacked a person > > >or a person's values in lieu of rational comment or > > debate. Probably derived > > >from 'flame-thrower' (flammenwerser), don't you > > think? > > > > yes. It's a personal attack or public scolding. > > > > > > >Anyway, I am reminded of a personal experience, > > Laura - very recent and very > > >uncomfortable. In November I started a small group > > - Townhounds - intended > > >for people who had so-called hunting dogs or dogs > > perceived as hunting dogs > > >*as pets* in cities - the problems of coping with > > prejudice (although I > > >didn't put it that way) against them and the > > problems of training or > > >retraining dogs as cityslickers, finding > > dog-friendly zones, etc. etc. > > > > I've recently also had some problems with people who > > seem to just > > want to see how much abuse and nastiness they can > > get away with > > before they are thrown off. <sigh> > > > > But I'm no pansy when it comes to conflict. And I've > > been known to > > shoot flames out of my keyboard from time to time, > > though it takes a > > lot of provocation. > > > > My basic suggestion is this: be clear and up front > > about the fact > > that no flames or disrespect will be tolerated. When > > someone behaves > > badly put them on moderation. What that means is > > their posts come to > > you first and then you can approve or reject them. > > If the person > > calms down after a while take them off moderation. > > If they do it > > twice (or some number that you decide) ask them to > > leave and if they > > won't, then them and put them on the > > " banned " list. > > > > I find that when I moderate someone what happens > > next depends on the > > person. Some people are astonished and apologize and > > shape up. > > Usually they are very nice people and didn't realize > > what they were > > doing. Others will get mad and stomp off. It's best > > to let them go. > > > > People are basically very nice, nearly always. I > > moderate 11 lists > > and I don't have to do any of the above more than > > once or twice a > > year, though it's been bad lately--maybe the moon is > > in the wrong > > sign or something :-/ > > > > Anyway, I'm glad you started this list and, as I > > said, I'm going to stay. > > > > Susan > > -- > > --------- > > Please visit my website: > > http://members.cox.net/sbcogan > > > > Also, check out an excerpt of " Jubilee, " which will > > be published in > > the next few months: > > http://members.cox.net/sbcogan/writing.html > > > > > > > Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2003 Report Share Posted January 11, 2003 > , Ron McClure <rlmftw> >wrote: > > Susan: > > > > I feel that I've just had the good fortune of > > evesdropping on what people are saying about me behind > > my back after they think I'm gone. I didn't say I was > > leaving, I said I would leave if my messages were > > censored. moderation isn't censorship--at least it shouldn't be. It's merely stopping people from attacking each other personally. I think *ideas* absolutely have to be open to criticism, otherwise they are worthless. > > My feeling on this is that leaving a group I don't > > like or have no interest in is very easy. All I have > > to do is click my mouse and go somewhere else. I > > believe the more difficult thing is to stay and work > > out effective communication or achieve a higher level > > of intimacy with a person or group that I would > > otherwise be alienated from. > > actually, that is what I am hoping will happen here. > > I've clicked off many diet groups, self-righteous > > groups, controlling groups, and shallow groups. I'm > > staying in this one--so far--because I hope to find > > one or more persons here who have ideas and > > experiences worth my time. Or, vice versa, someone > > here that I can help with my experience. Otherwise, > > I'm wasting my time here and I may as well go > > somewhere else in the world and look for my type of > > people. > > > > For example, I no longer attempt to talk with smokers > > about smoking. It's hopeless. I no longer talk with > > alcoholics about drinking--that's a waste of time. > > And I don't talk with people who think that I will > > eventually see that they are " right. " What I am > > trying to do is share my experience, strength and hope > > with others who have experience, strength and hope > > that I can benefit from. . . . and that is why I am here. If you went to the belly dance website you can see I am not near a goal weight, but I have lost nearly 50 lbs in the last year and a half. My top weight 6 years ago was 306 lbs. I am amazingly healthy for my weight and age. Shear, dumb luck, and my doctor warns darkly that it can't last. I believe him. I want to enjoy my 2nd half century. I don't want to sit in a chair watching the world slide by, too sick to participate. So here I am. Experience, strength and hope. I have some of all three and I'm willing to share them. Susan ------ Please visit my website: http://members.cox.net/sbcogan Also, check out an excerpt of " Jubilee, " which will be published in the next few months: http://members.cox.net/sbcogan/writing.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2003 Report Share Posted January 12, 2003 *****Susan wrote... >>...I think *ideas* absolutely have to be open to criticism, otherwise they are worthless.<< >>...Experience, strength and hope. I have some of all three and I'm willing to share them.<< These are the things that will make this group great!! I'm happy to be a part of it. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2003 Report Share Posted January 12, 2003 > I have lost nearly 50 lbs in the last > year and a half. My top weight 6 years ago was 306 lbs. I am amazingly > healthy for my weight and age. > That's fantastic, Susan! I really admire you for that - not an easy thing to do (whatever the silly ads on TV say!). In 2001 I shed some seventeen kilos / 37 pounds - and I know what a feeling of accomplishment that was. Feels better too! I still have more to lose, but I gave myself a break of a year (and no, I didn't gain *any* weight back!) to consolidate, as it were. And now I am ready to lose weight again along with a supportive group of people - that's why I am here ;=) best, pat -- PAT (In London, Ontario) Email List: townhounds- (townhounds/) Personal Email: SANTBROWN Personal Webpage: http://www.angelfire.com/art/pendragon/ ---------- * " Until he extends the circle of compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. " - Albert Schweitzer * " Don't be afraid. Just start the tape. " - Anne Rice * " I don't do pawprints. " -- Snoopy ---------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2003 Report Share Posted January 12, 2003 > I think *ideas* absolutely > have to be open to criticism, otherwise they are worthless. > That may be true. But could I just make a little point - without any intent to offend you or speak against your comment ;=) - Ideas can be open to criticism, sure. But there are basic principles which certain community groups hold - and when they get together voluntarily to discuss, say, children't welfare, they don't expect people to come along saying, for example, that they are wrong for having children in the first place in a world that is for the most part going hungry. If you see what I mean ;=) They would be annoyed - and the intervention would likely have been designed to annoy and disrupt rather than convert. We've all, I think, been in those kinds of situations. This is a vegetarian site. And that is a much more touchy situation than many because vegetarians are a minority group. I am not sure what the stats are, but I think that I've read something like two per cent of the population and I've read five per cent. Considering that people who eat a lot of vegetables call themselves vegetarian even though they eat meat 'only once or twice a week' as a former colleague of mine used to say ;=) and other people (such as restaurant owners) think chicken and fish are vegetables, etc., then vegetarians are a pretty small percentage of the population. As such we feel we want to band together sometimes to talk about vegetarian issues. This should be done in a safe environment. I, for one, may feel I have to defend my vegetarian lifestyle to a non-vegetarian (if I can be bothered), but I wouldn't expect or intend for that situation to arise in a vegetarian group. Advocating meat eating, for example, should be a no-no - and even talking about it can be offensive to people who find meat-eating abhorrent - as should criticizing vegetarians for eating those foods which are vegetarian and nourishing. That's where my agreement breaks down with the statement that '*ideas* absolutely have to be open to criticism, otherwise they are worthless'. I really have gone on far too long about this - and perhaps I should have spoken up sooner. I am not really taking issue with your statement, Susan - only with the logical extension of it. Honestly ;=) best, pat -- PAT (In London, Ontario) Email List: townhounds- (townhounds/) Personal Email: SANTBROWN Personal Webpage: http://www.angelfire.com/art/pendragon/ ---------- * " Until he extends the circle of compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. " - Albert Schweitzer * " Don't be afraid. Just start the tape. " - Anne Rice * " I don't do pawprints. " -- Snoopy ---------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2003 Report Share Posted January 12, 2003 > I feel that I've just had the good fortune of > > > evesdropping on what people are saying about me behind > > > my back after they think I'm gone. > As one of those people who were not eavesdropping but participating in the discussion, may I say that chatting on list is by no means talking about someone behind their back. As for thinking you or anyone else was 'gone', we all have the capability of checking the member list to find out who is and who isn't lurking or at least being temporarily silent. best, pat -- PAT (In London, Ontario) Email List: townhounds- (townhounds/) Personal Email: SANTBROWN Personal Webpage: http://www.angelfire.com/art/pendragon/ ---------- * " Until he extends the circle of compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. " - Albert Schweitzer * " Don't be afraid. Just start the tape. " - Anne Rice * " I don't do pawprints. " -- Snoopy ---------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2003 Report Share Posted January 13, 2003 Dave: Thanks for your kind words. I feel somewhat alienated from vegetarians after reading some of the posts and listening to some of the reactions to my posts. In addition, I went to a vegan restaurant here in Ft. Worth the other day and was surprised to see that vegan does not necessarily mean " low fat. " The vegan selections on the menu appeared to have the same amount of fat in them as the greasy chicken-fried steak lunches over at the local truck stop--but the fat came from nuts and seeds, avocadoes and olives, soy and vegetable oil instead of animal fats, oils and cholesterol. From a health standpoint, vegan does not necessarily mean " low fat " or even healthy, in my opinion. I'm disturbed with that. I thought that by becoming a vegetarian I would be taking a shortcut to health and wellness. Now it appears that I've just joined a group of people who get their fats and oils from vegetable sources instead of animal. I was hoping to find a group to reinforce my need for spiritual strength in order to make healthy lifestyle changes and it seems that I've found a group of dieters who are still trying to do the impossible by using self-will and discipline to moderate and control fattening, addictive foods. As a consequence, I've backed off postings and I'm giving my program some time to work. Today is the one-week anniversary of my decision to abstain entirely from alcohol, cigarettes, sugar, fats, oils, salt and stimulants. I've lifted weights and walked for a week now and I'm feeling better. My osteoarthritis is better. I've put on some muscle (which is heavy) and lost some fat (which is light)--but the net effect has been a one-pound weight loss in a week! I'm well pleased. Since I'm not looking at this as a diet, I'm not gloating over the weight loss. I'm considering the wholistic outlook. My cholesterol is coming down. I'm preventing chronic, degenerative diseases and reversing atherosclerotic plaque deposits in my coronary arteries. Hey! With results like that, what do I care if I'm like everybody else in the group or not? Ron -- In , " daveo " <daveo@m...> wrote: > > Ron, > > Thank you for staying in the group. > > Actually, I would suppose you've made more than " a good point or two, " but > for me, it's not about being right or wrong. It's about being as accurate > as I can be with the food/health facts I have to evaluate. > > I know we all have our own very personal truths about life. That's who we > are! But, our truths are not always the same as someone else who believes > much the same thing, and I learned years ago how to live peacefully with > those differences. > > I had no expectation that you'd change any of you opinions. My only goal in > this group is to offer over 20 years of experience being a veggie to those > who are interested in hearing. Some that I write will be my opinion. Some > will be facts. I'll let each reader decide how they will deal with each > post. > > My opinions are always open for discussion. My interpretation of facts is > likewise open to being challenged by new info. Rarely, can one be used to > refute the other. I think that says it all. > > Dave > > > > >>Dave: > > I believe my " flaming incident " was caused by sugar withdrawals. In fact, > on January 6, I renounced alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, sugar, flour, animal > protein, fat and oil, salt and coffee! Can you imagine the hellatious > withdrawals I must have had? > > I believe I made a good point or two, in addition, > however, and I have not changed my opinion on anything > I've said. > > Ron McClure<< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2003 Report Share Posted January 13, 2003 you have to do what is right for you. besides, if we were all the same, the world would be a f***ing boring place wouldn't it? :-) :-) :-) megan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2003 Report Share Posted January 13, 2003 >Dave: > >Thanks for your kind words. I feel somewhat alienated from >vegetarians after reading some of the posts and listening to some of >the reactions to my posts. In addition, I went to a vegan restaurant >here in Ft. Worth the other day and was surprised to see that vegan >does not necessarily mean " low fat. " The vegan selections on the >menu appeared to have the same amount of fat in them as the greasy >chicken-fried steak lunches over at the local truck stop--but the fat >came from nuts and seeds, avocadoes and olives, soy and vegetable oil >instead of animal fats, oils and cholesterol. From a health >standpoint, vegan does not necessarily mean " low fat " or even >healthy, in my opinion. they *are* healthier fats, but your body would still have trouble with the excess calories. >I'm disturbed with that. I thought that by becoming a vegetarian I >would be taking a shortcut to health and wellness. Now it appears >that I've just joined a group of people who get their fats and oils >from vegetable sources instead of animal. When I weighed 306 lbs I was a vegetarian. Chocolate is definitely veggie and usually vegan. Food is food. Vegetarians just get their protein from plants. >I was hoping to find a group to reinforce my need for spiritual >strength in order to make healthy lifestyle changes and it seems that >I've found a group of dieters who are still trying to do the >impossible by using self-will and discipline to moderate and control >fattening, addictive foods. I do Buddhist mediation. I'm not just attached to food, it's attached to me. >As a consequence, I've backed off postings and I'm giving my program >some time to work. Today is the one-week anniversary of my decision >to abstain entirely from alcohol, cigarettes, sugar, fats, oils, salt >and stimulants. I've lifted weights and walked for a week now and >I'm feeling better. My osteoarthritis is better. I've put on some >muscle (which is heavy) and lost some fat (which is light)--but the >net effect has been a one-pound weight loss in a week! I'm well >pleased. good for you! the lb is good, but the rest is wonderful! Susan -- --------- Please visit my website: http://members.cox.net/sbcogan Also, check out an excerpt of " Jubilee, " which will be published in the next few months: http://members.cox.net/sbcogan/writing.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2003 Report Share Posted January 13, 2003 Ron wrote: In addition, I went to a vegan restaurant here in Ft. Worth the other day and was surprised to see that vegan does not necessarily mean " low fat. " The vegan selections on the menu appeared to have the same amount of fat in them as the greasy chicken-fried steak lunches over at the local truck stop--but the fat came from nuts and seeds, avocadoes and olives, soy and vegetable oil instead of animal fats, oils and cholesterol. From a health standpoint, vegan does not necessarily mean " low fat " or even healthy, in my opinion. ------------- But it is still much healthier to have those fats than the other... and if you don't allow some healthy fats into your diet you will be in big trouble later... as a matter of fact it has been proven that if you don't have a little fat in for example, a salad, your body actually cannot process the vitamins and minerals of the veggies in that salad... it is just a waste of eating more or less becasue you will get the calories but not the really important things. so please re-think this whole thing of eating no fats what-so-ever that you have stated before. You really should have things like nuts and seeds, things that contain natural oils - it doesn't have to be every day or a whole lot but they are essential for you.Eliminating them completely can make you sick. Also keep in mind that you were in a resutrant - we all like to go out and splurge a little on the calorie intake... you go out to a resturant to have a good time and enjoy a little " naughty food " , not necessarily to eat only the strictest healthiest food available in the world. That's really the whole essence of what a resturant is there for, to fill food fantasies for us and to give us the food things that we crave. I am quitecertain theat there had to have been some very healthy things on the menu however. --------------- Rob Wrote: I'm disturbed with that. I thought that by becoming a vegetarian I would be taking a shortcut to health and wellness. Now it appears that I've just joined a group of people who get their fats and oils from vegetable sources instead of animal. ---- You've got it! But there is not such thing as a " shortcut " to health and wellness.. however a vegetarian/vegan lifestyle will lead you much closer to the path. I'm really interested in where you learned your information about being a vegetarian/vegan from - that is not sarcasm or criticism, just curiosity because you have given out some miss information here and there and it would help us in general to keep the rest of the worlds people on track about what it really means to be a vegetarian. Did you learn from tv or friends or just come to your own conclursions about what you thought it would mean. Please remember that a vegan wouldn't usually have a fried meal everyday! those are occasional treats like any other person would have. Vegans still have desserts and other fun foods... not just a plate of plain tossed salad without dressing. it's not a crime to have a french fry.... Later!! Allison Murphey - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2003 Report Share Posted January 13, 2003 Ron, Congrats on your 1 lb weight loss. I am very proud of you!!!!! I am new to this list. I will post more once I get a feel for the group. << I've put on some muscle (which is heavy) and lost some fat (which is light) >> I have heard this type of statement a few times this week and I just want to say, (for the record, CD, MP3 or whatever....) a pound of fat weighs the same as a pound of muscle! Fat just takes up more room. =o) Susan - in VA " A mind at peace, a mind centered and not focused on harming others, is stronger than any physical force in the universe. " Wayne Dyer, 1940 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2003 Report Share Posted January 14, 2003 Yeah, and the wretched stuff wobbles around more :=O You can tell it's just dying to leave! best, pat > Fat just takes up more room. =o) > -- PAT (In London, Ontario) Email List: townhounds- (townhounds/) Personal Email: SANTBROWN Personal Webpage: http://www.angelfire.com/art/pendragon/ ---------- * " Until he extends the circle of compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. " - Albert Schweitzer * " Don't be afraid. Just start the tape. " - Anne Rice * " I don't do pawprints. " -- Snoopy ---------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2003 Report Share Posted January 14, 2003 > I feel that I've just had the good fortune of > evesdropping on what people are saying about me > behind my back after they think I'm gone. > >>...chatting on list is by no means talking about someone behind their back...<< I find it interesting how our words tell the world who we are in quite subtle ways. Although I don't intend to imply anything negaitve, each email speaks its message loudly. Viva la difference!! Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2003 Report Share Posted January 14, 2003 ****Ron wrote... >>...I feel somewhat alienated from vegetarians after reading some of the posts...<< Understandably...but you must keep in mind that each situation has at least two points of view and often many more. People disagreed with your posts and they responded. It's not really about being veggie or not, it's about being friends. >>...surprised to see that vegan does not necessarily mean " low fat. " << Correct, the two are not one in the same. If your health situation requires low fat, then it's your responsibility to make those selections. Not everyone is where you are. All of the fat sources you cite as bad " for you " are significant parts of my diet, but then I'm not facing any of the health issues you've mentioned that you are trying to control. >>I'm disturbed with that. I thought that by becoming a vegetarian I would be taking a shortcut to health and wellness. Now it appears that I've just joined a group of people who get their fats and oils from vegetable sources instead of animal.<< Ron, the veggie diet is the healthiest one you could choose. I am only a couple of years younger than you, yet I do not have any of the health symptoms you've described for yourself. My 22 years of eating the way I describe has placed me in a much different health situation than you. It looks to me like rather than expecting a " one size fits all " veggie diet, you need to tailor your diet during the short term to deal with your specific health issues. Hopefully, at some point, when you are " back to normal " whatever that is, you'll be more comfortable with a nonrestricted veggie diet. >>I was hoping to find a group to reinforce my need for spiritual strength in order to make healthy lifestyle changes...<< Bring up the spiritual issues of interest to you. Since this is not that kind of site, I don't feel like presenting my spiritual point of view, but I'd certainly respond to a question if posed. I won't belabor the point, but I've mentioned before that IMHO a healthy lifestyle embodies much more than a healthy diet. >>...it seems that I've found a group of dieters who are still trying to do the impossible by using self-will and discipline to moderate and control fattening, addictive foods.<< I don't know what you're referring to, but I posted specific info for how I trimmed over 39 lbs from my body. It was not the impossible. Instead, I suppose it involved things which you choose not to do. >>...a one-pound weight loss in a week! I'm well pleased.<< Congrats to you!! >>...I'm considering the wholistic outlook. My cholesterol is coming down. I'm preventing chronic, degenerative diseases and reversing atherosclerotic plaque deposits in my coronary arteries.<< Define " wholistic, " please. It has a specific meaning to me. What does it mean to you? >>Hey! With results like that, what do I care if I'm like everybody else in the group or not?<< If you meant your earlier comment about a " wholistic outlook, " then I suggest that also become a part of your " outlook. " If indeed being veggies are healthier, then being more like them will also make you healthier. It's not brain surgery, bro! Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2003 Report Share Posted January 14, 2003 Indeed! best, pat > >>...chatting on list is by no means talking about someone behind their > back...<< > > I find it interesting how our words tell the world who we are in quite > subtle ways. Although I don't intend to imply anything negaitve, each email > speaks its message loudly. > -- PAT (In London, Ontario) Email List: townhounds- (townhounds/) Personal Email: SANTBROWN Personal Webpage: http://www.angelfire.com/art/pendragon/ ---------- * " Until he extends the circle of compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace. " - Albert Schweitzer * " Don't be afraid. Just start the tape. " - Anne Rice * " I don't do pawprints. " -- Snoopy ---------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2003 Report Share Posted January 14, 2003 Hello everyone, I have very much enjoyed reading everyone's posts today. I have to say Dave, i think you speak alot of sense. >>...it seems that I've found a group of dieters who are still trying to do the impossible by using self-will and discipline to moderate and control fattening, addictive foods.<< I have to comment on this i'm afraid. as Dave said, he is a living example of the fact that self-control can work to moderate " bad " foods. And i feel that i am to. Admittedly i only lost 8lb but the difference to me was huge. I had a break from dieting, did not put the weight back on and now i'm ready to start again. Everyone is different and everyone needs to find their own truth. It maybe for you that discipline doesn't work but this is certainly not the case for everybody. so please think before generalising what you experience to everyone. I think a similar thing goes for the scales thing. I didn't mean to suggest that everyone should run and hide their scales - or run and hide from their scales! Everyone has different things that make them tick, and any tips that i, or anyone else post may or may not work for you. I like to read and take on board lots of info but don't necessarily follow it all. With regards to the scales, personally i only weigh myself weekly because then its like a suprise to see how much weight has come off! I get very excited over a pound or two! You should always do what works best for you. Talking of shortcuts to health etc, someone i work with is a veggie but doesn't eat vegetables because she doesn't like them! She's slim yes but definitely not healthy. I suspect she lives on chips, pizza and convenience foods like quorn burgers. So just goes to show how vegetarianism does not guarantee health! Take care, Laura xx ------------ " Love is a simple practice yet it is very beneficial for the individual who practices it as well as for the community in which he lives, for the nation, and for the whole world " - The Dalai Lama, 1980 ------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2003 Report Share Posted January 15, 2003 >>...a pound of fat weighs the same as a pound of muscle! Fat just takes up more room<< Absolutely correct. I remember in college a professor asked, " Which falls the fastest a " ton of lead " or a " ton of feathers " ? " Interestingly, the answer is that a ton of anything falls at the same rate as a ton of anything else. Obviously, a ton of feathers would require a much bigger box to hold them. A round about way of stating the same thing but I hope it also makes the same point. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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