Question about a file recipe/review& question/Tom

[Guest guest]

I guess that I have other issues here Tom. It really bothers me

that I am " expected " to prepare the meat dishes at every gathering.

You know how sometimes when somebody makes a life change they become

fanatics? I don't want to be that way about vegetarianism but it is

also really starting to bother me where this meat is coming from. It

is an ethical decision for me to not eat me and it sometime almost

makes me feel ill preparing it. I just don't want to do it anymore.

I'll make it for my husband but I don't want to have to me the sole

meat cook in the family when all of his children are more the age of

siblings to me and could cook this stuff thenselves. You are a bigger

person than I am.

Stef

 

 

, " Tom " <tguidry@p...> wrote:

>

> I'm vegan and my wife is also. We never make an issue about us not

eating

> meat at the table. Most healthy meals will incorporate a salad, two

> vegetables steamed, some whole grain so there is 75% of your meal.

I always

> bring some type of Meatless protein substitute at family

gatherings. My

> in-laws and siblings are heavy meat eaters. Its never ever

presented a

> problem... maybe because I never consider it important what myself

or anyone

> else eats. I choose Vegan cause of how much better I feel, and

naturally

> the health issue.

> Now for the holidays, I actually bake the turkey at my house cause

its a

> little difficult to transport a freshly baked turkey across town to

my

> house. I cook it, carve it , and serve it, but just choose not to

eat it. I

> buy a vegetarian turkey roll, brown it in olive oil and onions with

some

> liquid smoke and worschishire sauce and then slice it. Many Vegan

or

> vegetarians don't understand you have protein in vegetables in

addition to

> nuts or nut butters.

>

> Tom / bayoubro2 on messengers

>

>

>

>

>

> Nancy Kohn [nkohn@c...]

> Tuesday, October 12, 2004 8:43 AM

>

> Re: Re: Question about a file

> recipe/review & question

>

>

>

> It's

> > getting so that I just don't want to even deal with meat anymore.

How

> > do you all handle this kind of situation? Kinda ruins my holidays.

> > Sorry this was so long.

> > Stef

>

> Hi Stef....

>

> I have run into this problem before, and it boils down to one

thing. We

> veggies, living in a carivore world are basically on our own. When

we dine

> with family, I always bring something veggie to share at the meal.

When

> going out, I always have my whole grain crackers, or Peanut butter,

trail

> mix, or granola tucked away in my purse. I figure if someone is

coming to

> my house, they eat what I fix, or bring their own meal. As for

holidays, I

> cook vegetarian, period. They are coming to my house, they eat

what I fix.

> It may seem hardass, but its the way it is. Don't let it spoil the

meaning

> of your holidays if you can...life is too short to argue about m**t!

>

> Nancy

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

-

" steffdav46 " <steffdav46

 

Tuesday, October 12, 2004 4:18 PM

Re: Question about a file recipe/review &

question/Tom

 

 

>

>

> I guess that I have other issues here Tom. It really bothers me

> that I am " expected " . You are a bigger

> person than I am.

> Stef

 

Stef,

 

You are being too hard on yourself! No one is bigger just cause they can

prepare m**t. For some people preparing it would be just a downright

offense. I am right there with you on this one. I guess to each his own,

but it does not make you less of a person. People should respect each other

for right where they are and let it go at that. I am fortunate that my

family admires and respects where I am at and does not expect anything with

a face to be served up on my table! There is nothing more beautiful to me

than a Thanksgiving table full of harvest foods! Its a glorious sight to

see all the different veggies and grains.....oh, now I can't wait for

Thanksgiving!!

 

Nancy

[Guest guest]

It is amazing to me now, after years of being vegetarian, how some

people feel the need to add animal products to absolutely everything.

My husband and I were invited to a picnic style party once and we were

told we should be okay since they had lots of salads - sure salads with

cheese, or mayo, or gelatin. There was nothing there I was willing to

eat other than the crackers, and I wasn't 100% sure about them. We

nibbled on crackera and left early to get something to eat...

 

>Tue, 12 Oct 2004 20:18:38 -0000

> " steffdav46 " <steffdav46

>

> I guess that I have other issues here Tom. It really bothers me

>that I am " expected " to prepare the meat dishes at every gathering. ...

[Guest guest]

Oh Maida!

 

Isn't that the truth! And don't you just HATE the 'have a salad' attitude - as

if we

could live on iceberg lettuce anyway (never mind the cheese or cheese

dressing or mayo or chunks of bac*on or whatever -yuk). And as if a chunk of

cold food was really something most of us (apologies to any raw foodists)

would want to wrap ourselves around at a holiday feast or in a nice

restaurant. But one learns that it is salads or nothing most of the time and

usually that means nothing, as you have shown :=( Even if the salad is vegan,

it's usually there to be shared with a dozen other people. And the bread is

buttered, right? Or heated with garlic and/or herbs and butter in the oven?

 

I'm lacto-veg not vegan, but I do not use dairy except the occasional latte

when I'm out and the very very occasional pasta with cheese. I mention this

not to compare myself with a vegan, but to indicate some sympathy with the

predicament ;=)

 

Best love,

 

Pat ;=)

 

> It is amazing to me now, after years of being vegetarian, how some

> people feel the need to add animal products to absolutely everything.

> My husband and I were invited to a picnic style party once and we were

> told we should be okay since they had lots of salads - sure salads with

> cheese, or mayo, or gelatin. There was nothing there I was willing to

> eat other than the crackers, and I wasn't 100% sure about them. We

> nibbled on crackera and left early to get something to eat...

[Guest guest]

Here's a simple approach to being a vegetarian... even a Vegan.

Cook all the same dishes with out the meat. Its so easy and believe me its

not the life of eating salads all the time (iceberg lettuce is a waste of

money - no nutritional value in that item ). If you have particular

questions I'm on messenger as bayoubro2.

 

I have Beans, Peas, nut loafs, grains of all kinds, any steamed vegetable

you can imagine, soy meat and soy cheese substitutes you can get at

Wal-Mart, gumbo's, jambalayas, tacos, lasagna..... it never stops..... I

surely invite the meat eaters to my house and they DON'T miss the flesh

food.... I promise.

 

Just a side note.. I consider milk products and sugar more harmful than meat

to put nutrition in balance.

 

 

Pat [veggiehound]

Wednesday, October 13, 2004 6:49 AM

 

Re: Question about a file recipe/review &

question/Tom

 

 

 

 

Oh Maida!

 

Isn't that the truth! And don't you just HATE the 'have a salad' attitude -

as if we

could live on iceberg lettuce anyway (never mind the cheese or cheese

dressing or mayo or chunks of bac*on or whatever -yuk). And as if a chunk of

cold food was really something most of us (apologies to any raw foodists)

would want to wrap ourselves around at a holiday feast or in a nice

restaurant. But one learns that it is salads or nothing most of the time and

usually that means nothing, as you have shown :=( Even if the salad is

vegan,

it's usually there to be shared with a dozen other people. And the bread is

buttered, right? Or heated with garlic and/or herbs and butter in the oven?

 

I'm lacto-veg not vegan, but I do not use dairy except the occasional latte

when I'm out and the very very occasional pasta with cheese. I mention this

not to compare myself with a vegan, but to indicate some sympathy with the

predicament ;=)

 

Best love,

 

Pat ;=)

 

> It is amazing to me now, after years of being vegetarian, how some

> people feel the need to add animal products to absolutely everything.

> My husband and I were invited to a picnic style party once and we were

> told we should be okay since they had lots of salads - sure salads with

> cheese, or mayo, or gelatin. There was nothing there I was willing to

> eat other than the crackers, and I wasn't 100% sure about them. We

> nibbled on crackera and left early to get something to eat...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Please understand Stephanie... we are all on this earth to help each other

out... there is nothing special about me or my approach to a healthy life

style. It pains me deeply to see anyone fighting an illness or disease and

to be honest... this is what motivates me to try to learn a simple and

happier approach to life. I am a very simple minded guy... no frills for

this Cajun at all believe me. I had a rather large benine tumor removed

alone with my adrenal glad which was about 2 years ago. For me being a

vegetarian has nothing to do with meat... its about what your body does with

what you eat. So please don't stress yourself with being a vegetarian...

stress will kill you quicker than flesh foods in my opinion.

 

My approach is to take one meal at a time (BREAKFAST) and make it a healthy

one that everyone likes. I cook either oatmeal, grits, 7 grain cereal, whole

wheat pancakes, whole wheat waffles or any other type of grain the family

enjoys. Add to that a small amount of nuts... (Raw is naturally the best) I

have a small handful of mixed nuts most every morning.

and you can add a couple of slices of any whole wheat bread... and most

important LOTS of fresh fruit in season... and Please never forget the

importance of a lot of water.

 

I could write a book right here but I'll spare you.... hehhee

 

Tom

 

 

>

>

> I guess that I have other issues here Tom. It really bothers me

> that I am " expected " . You are a bigger

> person than I am.

> Stef

 

Stef,

 

You are being too hard on yourself! No one is bigger just cause they can

prepare m**t. For some people preparing it would be just a downright

offense. I am right there with you on this one. I guess to each his own,

but it does not make you less of a person. People should respect each other

for right where they are and let it go at that. I am fortunate that my

family admires and respects where I am at and does not expect anything with

a face to be served up on my table! There is nothing more beautiful to me

than a Thanksgiving table full of harvest foods! Its a glorious sight to

see all the different veggies and grains.....oh, now I can't wait for

Thanksgiving!!

 

Nancy

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

>>>people feel the need to add animal products to absolutely everything.

 

This reminds me of a few years back when my neice tried out vegetarianism... at

my parent's place where we all congregate in July, we (siblings) take turns

making meals. For Karin, I made sure I made baked beans withOUT the salt pork.

There were lots of side dishes along with the usual burgers & hot dogs. She

said she couldn't eat the beans because *they* put meat in them. I asked who

*they* were & she said the people who can the beans. I said that I had made

them & hadn't added meat. She lit up & said, " OHHH!!!! " and got a big plateful.

It's no more than common courtesy to make sure there is something for everybody,

imo. A little thoughtfulness goes a long ways.

Beth

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Tom ;=)

 

> Here's a simple approach to being a vegetarian... even a Vegan.

> Cook all the same dishes with out the meat. Its so easy and believe me its

> not the life of eating salads all the time (iceberg lettuce is a waste of

> money - no nutritional value in that item ). If you have particular

> questions I'm on messenger as bayoubro2.

 

Thanks, Tom. No one here is advocating that tasteless nutritionless stuff :=(

Don't worry!

 

> I have Beans, Peas, nut loafs, grains of all kinds, any steamed vegetable

> you can imagine. . . .

 

That's great - it sounds as if you're on a healthy diet ;=) Isn't it wonderful

to be

able to enjoy our food *and* be healthy *and* protect the environment *and*

to be cruelty free!

 

> Just a side note.. I consider milk products and sugar more harmful than

meat

> to put nutrition in balance.

 

Ooooops!!! :=( I don't think you meant to say that on a vegetarian list. For one

thing, what you consider doesn't enter into it really. It is either so or not

so.

There's plenty of evidence that meat is unhealthy - in my opinion far more so

that dairy. (Sugar? it's a matter of proportion and moderation.) Why not check

out our Links. But, to save you the trouble, go to:

 

Meat and Your Health

http://freethought.homestead.com/Health.html

- a brief synopsis of the biological realities of consuming meat.

 

But more importantly - not more important than health to you, perhaps, but to

some of us more important ;=) - remember that this is a vegetarian list. There

are vegans and vegetarians of all kinds on it. Some of them are New

vegetarians or vegans. Some of them have been vegetarians for a long time.

But many, from time to time, waver a little as their fellow human beings eat

me*t. It does not help, on a group such as this, to have some suggest that it is

less 'harmful' (in whatever way) to eat meat than to eat dairy. This is a

support

group where we all try to help each other, okay?

 

As for just leaving the me*t out of the meals - oh dear - that's sooooo boring

for some people - there seems to be a hole in the middle of their plates LOL

Ya know? Some people thrive on that - just adding a few more veggies or

substituting fake for real me*t; others want new recipes that have never even

been meat recipes in the first place. I'm all in favour of all these approaches,

but not one rather than another. Me? I like the original vegetarian dishes -

they would have called the Lenten dishes eons ago - as well as the wonderful

meatless Mediterranean dishes *and* all those wonderful foods and dishes

from cultures that are predicated in the main on vegetarianism ;=)

 

Nice to have you joining in. But remember - a vegetarian list LOL

 

Best,

 

Pat ;=)

[Guest guest]

Hi again, Tom -

 

> I had a rather large benine tumor removed

> alone with my adrenal glad which was about 2 years ago.

 

I hadn't known about this, but thank heavens the tumor was benign ;=) Sorry,

though that you've been unwell :=(

 

>For me being a

> vegetarian has nothing to do with meat...

 

Well, with all respect Tom, vegetarianism has everything to do with me*t. By

definition a vegetarian is one who does not eat meat - including what is

commonly called red meat, what sometimes now is called 'white' meat,

poultry, fish, so-called sea food and all kinds of water life. Vegetarians don't

eat me*t, Period ;=)

 

>its about what your body does with what you eat.

 

I suspect here you are talking about the health - or rather the unhealthy -

aspects of a non-vegetarian diet. Okay. There are lots of reasons for being

vegetarian - and health is certainly one very respectable reason ;=)

 

>So please don't stress yourself with being a vegetarian...

 

I think Stef isn't stressed about being vegetarian. I think she has indicated

that

she is annoyed about the lack of respect from people who know she is a

vegetarian and don't take it seriously. That would seriously annoy me also! :=(

But vegetarian is what she is and clearly intends to remain. Her friends and

family will learn that that is true. Meanwhile, of course, it is perfectly

proper for

her to vent on this list - a safe place for all of us, yourself included, to

vent

about the problems of being a vegetarian. Support is part of what we're here

for. Well, it's what I'm here for - anyway . . . ;=) right?

 

> stress will kill you quicker than flesh foods in my opinion.

 

Ooooops, again, please remember that this is a vegetarian list. Your opinion

is or is not valid, depending upon your qualifications for speaking on the

subject - and we have some very qualified people who are nutritionists on this

list as well as health care professionals of other kinds. But while we are

trying

to alleviate what we rightly or wrongly perceive as stress in someone we have

just, so to speak, 'met', we should also remember that we must be careful not

to even, by the longest stretch of the imagination, appear to encourage the

consumption of meat to vegetarians or to denigrate their brave attempts to

continue in their vegetarian lifestyle despite opposition from supposedly 'well-

meaning' friends and family.

 

From where I'm sitting, the remark that

 

> stress will kill you quicker than flesh foods in my opinion.

 

is unsupportive and therefore should not be the kind of thing we should be

saying here.

 

I'm sure you understand ;=)

 

But I do agree, that stress is to be avoided at all costs. Sometimes, however,

it

is not of our making.

 

Best,

Pat ;=) (Co-moderator, VegetarianSlimming)

[Guest guest]

>> Just a side note.. I consider milk products and sugar more harmful

than

meat

>> to put nutrition in balance.

>Ooooops!!! :=( I don't think you meant to say that on a vegetarian

list.

 

Howard Lyman, consummate vegan lecturer, author of " The Mad Cowboy, " and

co-defendant with Oprah Winfrey in the Cattlemen disparagement lawsuit

says that dairy is the first thing you should give up, then fish, and

lastly meat to do the most for your own health and the environment.

There is plenty of benefit to animals in giving up dairy because you

affect the number of cows forced to live short lives of confinement

producing more milk than is natural with oversized mammary glands,

reduce the number of male veal calves torn from their mothers' sides and

raised in cruel confinement in the dark with no room to move and

purposely undernourished to make their flesh (muscles) white.

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Maida ;=)

 

May I just add that if Howard Lyman had posted that message to this group I

would still have said 'Oooooops!!! :=( I don't think you meant to say that on a

vegetarian list.' LOL

 

Of course we do understand that, healthwise, some non-vegan foods are

more 'dangerous' than others. And we understand that, from the point of view

of animals, much is done to alleviate suffering by avoiding dairy - as you

state.

But we are talking milk cows here. Giving up dairy doesn't do a lot for the

animals that end up as McD burgers :=( For me, at least, vegetarianism

means giving up meat. First and foremost. That's what I think a vegetarian is:

one who gives up meat. ;=)

 

Of course, I could be wrong - I've been wrong before many a time - and

vegetarianism might be about giving up making animals suffer (and therefore

perhaps promoting less cruel slaughter methods so that we can all eat me*t

again). It may even be about saving the environment - commendable. And

yes it could be about overpopulation, world hunger, and all the rest of it. But

by definition it's about not eating animal flesh.

 

[For me, it's about abstaining from animal flesh for several reasons. The

foremost (if anyone cares, which I doubt - other people's reasons are soooo

boring LOL) is that to me a life is a life. ]

 

I'm keen to support not eating meat, especially with new vegetarians. They

don't need to waver and think, oh well, I didn't have the milk shake so I can

have the burger cuz I've saved all those milk cows from suffering, or whatever.

(I'm being deliberately simplistic here - but I've heard that argument too ;=))

 

Anyway, relative vegetarianism, flexible vegetarianism, alternatives to

vegetarianism aren't really the subject here.

 

As for Lyman's advice to omnivores to give up dairy first - I suggest that since

the *hardest* thing for most 'western' omnivores to give up is the cheese, then

we'd be waiting for a cold day in hades for many to turn from killing animals.

Otherwise, the world would be swamped with vegans and it'd be the

omnivores who would need support groups such as this one ;=0

 

But hey, Maida, you're a vegan, right???? :=)

 

Best love,

 

Pat ;=)

[Guest guest]

Dittos to Maida Genser... I happen to believe pretty much the same. Even

though I am myself vegan, its ALL about eating healthy and being happy. A

person who is sickly with a negative attitude in life does not contribute to

loving his fellow man as best as he is able.

 

Tom

 

 

 

Maida Genser [maidawg]

Friday, October 15, 2004 6:41 PM

 

RE: Re: Question about a file

recipe/review & question/Tom

 

 

 

>> Just a side note.. I consider milk products and sugar more harmful

than

meat

>> to put nutrition in balance.

>Ooooops!!! :=( I don't think you meant to say that on a vegetarian

list.

 

Howard Lyman, consummate vegan lecturer, author of " The Mad Cowboy, " and

co-defendant with Oprah Winfrey in the Cattlemen disparagement lawsuit

says that dairy is the first thing you should give up, then fish, and

lastly meat to do the most for your own health and the environment.

There is plenty of benefit to animals in giving up dairy because you

affect the number of cows forced to live short lives of confinement

producing more milk than is natural with oversized mammary glands,

reduce the number of male veal calves torn from their mothers' sides and

raised in cruel confinement in the dark with no room to move and

purposely undernourished to make their flesh (muscles) white.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Howdy Ms. Pat....

I thank you kindly for your responses to my message. I was fortunate to not

even experienced any type of illness with the tumor I had removed... and

also thankful it was found.

 

I totally agree that naturally being a vegetarian (which I naturally and

highly recommend) is all about meat. I guess I was trying to say too much

with too little words (a guy thing heheheh). My main point was what actually

motivates ME personally to being a vegetarian. I also enjoy baking bread

with wheat berries that I grind at home. Also making soy milk at home is

another fun thing to do with a soymilk machine. Both are EXTREMELY easy and

the price just cant be beat... Less than 50 cents for a loaf of bread and a

jug of soymilk.

 

Thanks again Pat

Southern hugs to you

Tom

 

 

Pat [veggiehound]

Wednesday, October 13, 2004 2:33 PM

 

Re: Question about a file recipe/review &

question/Tom

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi again, Tom -

 

> I had a rather large benine tumor removed

> alone with my adrenal glad which was about 2 years ago.

 

I hadn't known about this, but thank heavens the tumor was benign ;=) Sorry,

though that you've been unwell :=(

 

>For me being a

> vegetarian has nothing to do with meat...

 

Well, with all respect Tom, vegetarianism has everything to do with me*t. By

definition a vegetarian is one who does not eat meat - including what is

commonly called red meat, what sometimes now is called 'white' meat,

poultry, fish, so-called sea food and all kinds of water life. Vegetarians

don't

eat me*t, Period ;=)

 

>its about what your body does with what you eat.

 

I suspect here you are talking about the health - or rather the unhealthy -

aspects of a non-vegetarian diet. Okay. There are lots of reasons for being

vegetarian - and health is certainly one very respectable reason ;=)

 

>So please don't stress yourself with being a vegetarian...

 

I think Stef isn't stressed about being vegetarian. I think she has

indicated that

she is annoyed about the lack of respect from people who know she is a

vegetarian and don't take it seriously. That would seriously annoy me also!

:=(

But vegetarian is what she is and clearly intends to remain. Her friends and

family will learn that that is true. Meanwhile, of course, it is perfectly

proper for

her to vent on this list - a safe place for all of us, yourself included, to

vent

about the problems of being a vegetarian. Support is part of what we're here

for. Well, it's what I'm here for - anyway . . . ;=) right?

 

> stress will kill you quicker than flesh foods in my opinion.

 

Ooooops, again, please remember that this is a vegetarian list. Your opinion

is or is not valid, depending upon your qualifications for speaking on the

subject - and we have some very qualified people who are nutritionists on

this

list as well as health care professionals of other kinds. But while we are

trying

to alleviate what we rightly or wrongly perceive as stress in someone we

have

just, so to speak, 'met', we should also remember that we must be careful

not

to even, by the longest stretch of the imagination, appear to encourage the

consumption of meat to vegetarians or to denigrate their brave attempts to

continue in their vegetarian lifestyle despite opposition from supposedly

'well-

meaning' friends and family.

 

From where I'm sitting, the remark that

 

> stress will kill you quicker than flesh foods in my opinion.

 

is unsupportive and therefore should not be the kind of thing we should be

saying here.

 

I'm sure you understand ;=)

 

But I do agree, that stress is to be avoided at all costs. Sometimes,

however, it

is not of our making.

 

Best,

Pat ;=) (Co-moderator, VegetarianSlimming)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Pat said, " We are talking milk cows here. Giving up dairy doesn't do a

lot for the

animals that end up as McD burgers :=( For me, at least, vegetarianism

means giving up meat. First and foremost. That's what I think a

vegetarian is:

one who gives up meat. ;=) "

 

I realize that this is a vegetarian list, not a vegan list, and that

there are probably more vegetarians than vegans on this list. Also, I

am not perfect in my veganism - I just keep trying to be.

 

What needs to be said about dairy cows is that the veal industry, which

involves horrible abuse, is a sideline to the dairy industry. Female

cows are kept pregnant to spur milk production. Veal calves are taken

from their mothers while still nursing - which is very upsetting to the

mothers and the young male animals. The calves are put into tiny stall

where they cannot even turn around or sit down to inhibit muscle

development - so the meat will be tender and soft. They are deprived

sunlight and are purposely kept anemic to keep the flesh white. The

other thing is that dairy cows, when they bodies can no longer tolerate

overproducing milk, are " retired " to the slaughterhouse. I am not sure,

but I think most meat comes from cows that were formerly dairy cows.

[Guest guest]

> What needs to be said about dairy cows is that the veal industry, which

> involves horrible abuse, is a sideline to the dairy industry. Female

> cows are kept pregnant to spur milk production. Veal calves are taken . . .

 

Oh hey, Maida, we're both on the same page here ;=)

 

I was simply defining vegetarianism, not suggesting that veganism was

unimportant. I questioned the *tactics* of Lyman suggesting to a non-

vegetarian audience that giving up dairy was more important than giving up

fish or meat (those were the order in which they were made in the

paraphrase). I was saying that I thought such a suggestion might lead to non-

vegetarians thinking it was okay to eat meat as long as they don't eat dairy

cuz dairy is more cruel.

 

Now dairy may be more cruel, but a non-eater of dairy is not a vegetarian

unless she also abstains from meat. Definition. And I also said that dairy was

hard for many non-vegetarians to relinquish - think of alll the talk of 'I have

to

have my cheese' and 'but soy doesn't taste like milk' etc. You know? So I was

questiioning Lyman's tactics in that post to which you refer here.

 

My reference to your own veganism was intended as supportive.

Hon, you vegans are thin on the ground! Best luck to you all, because it takes

strength and dedication.

 

We should all, if we care for suffering animals, strive for a vegan lifestyle -

of

course. As it is, however, there are many reasons for vegetarianism as well as

for a plant-only diet . . . .

 

Now let us not, because someone on this list or elsewhere said that the meat,

the animals, wasn't what it was about for *him* - let us not now argue among

ourselves because of that. It's easy to let that occur. Not everyone is

vegetarian - and not everyone gives a rats butt about suffering even if they are

;=(

 

Does this make any sense?

 

Best love,

 

Pat ;=)

[Guest guest]

While some of the agricultural practices being decried in these

e-mails are universal, many either are not or vary in extent between

different types of operations. I would therefore urge someone

wrestling with these issues and considering a local ethical dairy or

egg production enterprise to tour the place if possible. I'm sure the

vegans I am attempting to refrain from arguing with would agree that

this is sometimes a good way to clarify things.

[Guest guest]

> While some of the agricultural practices being decried in these

> e-mails are universal, many either are not or vary in extent between

> different types of operations.

 

Yes, that's true. Perhaps different countries also. One must remember that the

whole world is not under the domination of certain business interests - yet :=)

Well, not quite, anyway.

It would however be an error to suppose that the exception - the caring dairy

farmer in terms of what we would call humane practice - is the rule. That is to

say that such caring practice cannot be wished into existence - and I imagine

the tours you suggest, below, might further confirm those who are concerned

for animals in their concern.

 

>I would therefore urge someone

> wrestling with these issues and considering a local ethical dairy or

> egg production enterprise to tour the place if possible.

 

So, oh yeah, go see the operation for yourselves. Then go out and buy a

soymilk maker if you don't like what you find LOL We don't need dairy anyway.

 

>I'm sure the vegans I am attempting to refrain from arguing with . . . .

 

Okay, we're all friends here.

 

> . . . would agree that this is sometimes a good way to clarify things.

 

Unless you don't understand what you're looking at. Or unless your values

differ. Expert opinion is useful sometimes in such cases.

 

Thanks for writing in about this. I'm not quite sure where all this is going (or

where it's all come from ;=)), but it makes for interesting reading.

 

Best,

 

Pat ;=)

[Guest guest]

>. I happen to believe pretty much the same. Even

> though I am myself vegan, its ALL about eating healthy and being happy. A

> person who is sickly with a negative attitude in life does not contribute to

> loving his fellow man as best as he is able.

 

'It's ALL about eating healthy and being happy'? Okay, I get ya. But where did

'loving his fellow man' come into it? I thought we were talking about

vegetarianism and veganism here - or do I need more coffee (had a late night,

sorry LOL)? Not that I'm against happiness or love - quite the opposite ;=) Just

don't get it in this context. But never mind, it's a good thought.

 

Best,

Pat ;=)

[Guest guest]

I sort of snuck that little thought in there.... since a lot of discussion

is about loving our fellow cow and chicken.... :-)

It does seem an important point in our basic train of thought...

Well in fact the time and concern that you (PAT) show in this message group

is very much in line with your deep love for your fellow man.

That does not go un-noticed by me... and I applauded you highly for what you

do Pat.

 

Tom

 

-

 

 

>. I happen to believe pretty much the same. Even

> though I am myself vegan, its ALL about eating healthy and being happy. A

> person who is sickly with a negative attitude in life does not contribute

to

> loving his fellow man as best as he is able.

 

'It's ALL about eating healthy and being happy'? Okay, I get ya. But where

did

'loving his fellow man' come into it? I thought we were talking about

vegetarianism and veganism here - or do I need more coffee (had a late

night,

sorry LOL)? Not that I'm against happiness or love - quite the opposite ;=)

Just

don't get it in this context. But never mind, it's a good thought.

 

Best,

Pat ;=)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

> I sort of snuck that little thought in there.... since a lot of discussion

> is about loving our fellow cow and chicken.... :-)

 

This is a radical idea, I must say, that we should love people as well ;=) Well,

okay, I can come to that if you insist - but I'll probably have to look for a

support group for peopleism. As for the rest of your message, below, I should

warn you that this is dangerous business, sending compliments; you never

know what might happen. I for one always get delusions of grandeur when

complimented on anything . . . .

 

Okay, gang, you hear that? Now smarten up, dammit. I'm a caring person, I'll

have you know, and I demand - er what can I ask for, Tom??? Donuts?

Carnations? A litter of kittens? I'm working on it . . .

 

Best (I mean, absolutely the best!)

 

Pat who thinks she might settle for being Emperess of somewhere or other.

 

> It does seem an important point in our basic train of thought...

> Well in fact the time and concern that you (PAT) show in this message group

> is very much in line with your deep love for your fellow man.

> That does not go un-noticed by me... and I applauded you highly for what

you

> do Pat.

[Guest guest]

You're a breath of fresh air Pat....

Cajun Huggs to you.. :-)

 

Tom

 

 

Pat [veggiehound]

Tuesday, October 19, 2004 12:30 PM

 

Re: Question about a file recipe/review &

question/Tom

 

 

 

 

 

> I sort of snuck that little thought in there.... since a lot of discussion

> is about loving our fellow cow and chicken.... :-)

 

This is a radical idea, I must say, that we should love people as well ;=)

Well,

okay, I can come to that if you insist - but I'll probably have to look for

a

support group for peopleism. As for the rest of your message, below, I

should

warn you that this is dangerous business, sending compliments; you never

know what might happen. I for one always get delusions of grandeur when

complimented on anything . . . .

 

Okay, gang, you hear that? Now smarten up, dammit. I'm a caring person, I'll

have you know, and I demand - er what can I ask for, Tom??? Donuts?

Carnations? A litter of kittens? I'm working on it . . .

 

Best (I mean, absolutely the best!)

 

Pat who thinks she might settle for being Emperess of somewhere or other.

 

> It does seem an important point in our basic train of thought...

> Well in fact the time and concern that you (PAT) show in this message

group

> is very much in line with your deep love for your fellow man.

> That does not go un-noticed by me... and I applauded you highly for what

you

> do Pat.

[Guest guest]

" Stuart Parker " <afusangite said " ... I would therefore urge

someone wrestling with these issues and considering a local ethical

dairy or egg production enterprise to tour the place if possible. ... "

 

The worst facilities for animal abuse would not even let you in - so if

you try to check and get nowhere, it is a good sign to avoid their

products.