Guest guest Posted August 7, 2002 Report Share Posted August 7, 2002 Thanks for the post, Mike. Your details are simple and straight to the point. Recent medical literature regarding anti-aging says much the same thing. The only known method to reduce aging that can be replicated in the lab is a calorie restricted (CR) diet, and here's an interesting twist. Diets that include meat cannot get low enough in calories while satisfying hunger to qualify as a true CR diet (1,200-1,400 cals for women, 1,400-1,600 cals for men). So... science is catching up, albeit slowly, with what we, as veggies, already know. Dave O'Neal Michael_Goldberger [michael_goldberger] Tuesday, August 06, 2002 6:46 PM Livin' to a ripe old age Dear South Bay Veggies, I came across this well-researched tidbit the other day about long- life. " ...the correlation between meat eating and a lowered life expectancy is striking, all the more so when one considers that some with the longest lifespans often live in conditions of severe poverty. The Russian Caucasians, the Yucatan Indians, the East Indian Todas, and the Pakistani Hunzakuts live on diets with little or no animal products. All of these groups have average lifespans of ninety to one hundred years. Imagine how long those in more affluent, cleaner, and more medically advanced countries might live if they were to relinquish meat eating. Conversely, populations with the highest rates of meat in the diet - Eskimos, Laplanders, Greenlanders, and the Russian Kurgi tribes -- also have the lowest life expectancies, which average little more than thirty years. " (from The Case for Vegetarianism by John Lawrence Hill, page 83) Now we have to keep our club going so we will have friends when we outlive all our " regular " friends. Best wishes, Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2002 Report Share Posted August 7, 2002 Thanks for the interesting posts you guys (below)!!! In the spirit of lively debate, can I play devils advocate (as I've had similiar discussions, and was wondering what facts really fit in reply to the ever looming counter arguments I often hear). I love hearing people's counter replies. It's great theatre but also great for stimulating the interest of the " not yet quite vegetarians " . For those of you who enjoy this sort of debate, any illuminations would be appreciated to the following: ********************************************************************* Some arguments I'm curious about in reply to Mike and Dave's posts: 1). " While there may be a correlation between meat eating diets and shortened life span, it does not establish a causal relationship of death. For instance, most people in those situations die from other external hardships in thier society and environment besides degenerative disease. " 2). " While low calorie intake is correlated with long life expectancy, is there research that shows that hunger is satisfied over time on calorie restricted diets (1,200-1,400 cals for women, 1,400-1,600 cals for men) REGARDLESS OF BEING VEGETARIAN OR NOT? In fact the relapse rate off of restricted caloric diets after two years is extremely high for ALL types of diets (vegetarian AND other including examples such as Weight Watchers, McDougall, etc.). Cheers, Robin P.S. What do any of you think about the idea of having some online forum for exploring divergent views on vegetarian topics? (Not that I'm in a place to volunteer, just curious what the interest level is first). - " oneal " <oneal Tuesday, August 06, 2002 8:49 PM Livin' to a ripe old age > > > Thanks for the post, Mike. Your details are simple and straight to the > point. > > Recent medical literature regarding anti-aging says much the same thing. > The only known method to reduce aging that can be replicated in the lab > is a calorie restricted (CR) diet, and here's an interesting twist. > Diets that include meat cannot get low enough in calories while > satisfying hunger to qualify as a true CR diet (1,200-1,400 cals for > women, 1,400-1,600 cals for men). > > So... science is catching up, albeit slowly, with what we, as veggies, > already know. > > Dave O'Neal > > Michael_Goldberger [michael_goldberger] > Tuesday, August 06, 2002 6:46 PM > > Livin' to a ripe old age > > > Dear South Bay Veggies, > > I came across this well-researched tidbit the other day about long- > life. > > " ...the correlation between meat eating and a lowered > life expectancy is striking, all the more so when one > considers that some with the longest lifespans often > live in conditions of severe poverty. The Russian > Caucasians, the Yucatan Indians, the East Indian > Todas, and the Pakistani Hunzakuts live on diets with > little or no animal products. All of these groups > have average lifespans of ninety to one hundred years. > Imagine how long those in more affluent, cleaner, and > more medically advanced countries might live if they > were to relinquish meat eating. Conversely, > populations with the highest rates of meat in the diet > - Eskimos, Laplanders, Greenlanders, and the Russian > Kurgi tribes -- also have the lowest life > expectancies, which average little more than thirty > years. " (from The Case for Vegetarianism by John > Lawrence Hill, page 83) > > Now we have to keep our club going so we will have friends when we > outlive all our " regular " friends. > > Best wishes, > Mike > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2002 Report Share Posted August 7, 2002 Robin, here's my 2 cents... >>1). " While there may be a correlation between meat eating diets and shortened life span, it does not establish a causal relationship of death. For instance, most people in those situations die from other external hardships in thier society and environment besides degenerative disease. " << My reading tells me several things...First, as we age, ten bio-markers appear which indicate our advancing age and well... our eventual death. These bio-markers are well established in medical literature. They are 1) insulin resistance, 2) systolic blood pressure, 3) percent body fat, 4) lipid ratios, 5) glucose tolerance, 6) aerobic capacity, 7) muscle mass, 8) strength, 9) temperature regulation, and 10) immune function. Second, all of these bio-markers can be quite easily affected by diet. Four are effected directly and the rest are influenced indirectly. And, here's the great news...reduction of the health conditions relating to each bio-marker extends our life. >>2). " While low calorie intake is correlated with long life expectancy, is there research that shows that hunger is satisfied over time on calorie restricted diets (1,200-1,400 cals for women, 1,400-1,600 cals for men) REGARDLESS OF BEING VEGETARIAN OR NOT?<< It doesn't take research to know that, but yes it's there. Just spend a couple of weeks on a CR diet to experience that much of our hunger is not based on any real need for food but simply on our personal eating habit. The biggest factor here seems to be the carbos we eat and where they're located in the glycemic index (GI). Some foods require much larger quantities to effect our hunger switch. Thus, we eat more before feeling full. There's much more to this issue, but this hopefully makes the point. >>In fact the relapse rate off of restricted caloric diets after two years is extremely high for ALL types of diets (vegetarian AND other including examples such as Weight Watchers, McDougall, etc.).<< In spite of how we try to deny it, we are all affected by food related advertising and the ever present social pressures they involve. Food in the US is a " group ritual " with much influence over our lives. For me, the main purpose of our veggie group is to provide the support network to overcome those pressures. Since most of the members I've met are relatively young or at least younger than me, the necessity to focus on the anti-aging qualities of a veggie diet have been overlooked, but nevertheless, they are definitely out there in spades. Lastly, remaining on a particular diet is a personal choice. It's the same for being veggie. Some do it a while and for a multitude of reasons believe they are missing something that their meat-eater friends are getting. Not true but I've seen many people believe it and then act on it as if it were true. >>P.S. What do any of you think about the idea of having some online forum for exploring divergent views on vegetarian topics? (Not that I'm in a place to volunteer, just curious what the interest level is first).<< That's what we're doing now. This group and this forum is just fine for doing that sort of thing. My thanks go out again to Mike for starting it with his last post. Dave O Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2002 Report Share Posted August 7, 2002 Dave and Mike, Again, many thanks for the thoughtful posts. Most illuminating! Cheers, Robin - " oneal " <oneal Wednesday, August 07, 2002 7:22 AM RE: Livin' to a ripe old age > > Robin, here's my 2 cents... > > >>1). " While there may be a correlation between meat eating diets and > shortened life span, it does not establish a causal relationship of > death. For instance, most people in those situations die from other > external hardships in thier society and environment besides degenerative > disease. " << > > My reading tells me several things...First, as we age, ten bio-markers > appear which indicate our advancing age and well... our eventual death. > > > These bio-markers are well established in medical literature. They are > 1) insulin resistance, 2) systolic blood pressure, 3) percent body fat, > 4) lipid ratios, 5) glucose tolerance, 6) aerobic capacity, 7) muscle > mass, 8) strength, 9) temperature regulation, and 10) immune function. > > Second, all of these bio-markers can be quite easily affected by diet. > Four are effected directly and the rest are influenced indirectly. And, > here's the great news...reduction of the health conditions relating to > each bio-marker extends our life. > > > > >>2). " While low calorie intake is correlated with long life expectancy, > is there research that shows that hunger is satisfied over time on > calorie restricted diets (1,200-1,400 cals for women, 1,400-1,600 cals > for men) REGARDLESS OF BEING VEGETARIAN OR NOT?<< > > It doesn't take research to know that, but yes it's there. Just spend a > couple of weeks on a CR diet to experience that much of our hunger is > not based on any real need for food but simply on our personal eating > habit. > > The biggest factor here seems to be the carbos we eat and where they're > located in the glycemic index (GI). Some foods require much larger > quantities to effect our hunger switch. Thus, we eat more before > feeling full. There's much more to this issue, but this hopefully makes > the point. > > > >>In fact the relapse rate off of restricted caloric diets after two > years is extremely high for ALL types of diets (vegetarian AND other > including examples such as Weight Watchers, McDougall, etc.).<< > > In spite of how we try to deny it, we are all affected by food related > advertising and the ever present social pressures they involve. Food in > the US is a " group ritual " with much influence over our lives. For me, > the main purpose of our veggie group is to provide the support network > to overcome those pressures. > > Since most of the members I've met are relatively young or at least > younger than me, the necessity to focus on the anti-aging qualities of a > veggie diet have been overlooked, but nevertheless, they are definitely > out there in spades. > > Lastly, remaining on a particular diet is a personal choice. It's the > same for being veggie. Some do it a while and for a multitude of > reasons believe they are missing something that their meat-eater friends > are getting. Not true but I've seen many people believe it and then act > on it as if it were true. > > > >>P.S. What do any of you think about the idea of having some online > forum for exploring divergent views on vegetarian topics? (Not that I'm > in a place to volunteer, just curious what the interest level is > first).<< > > That's what we're doing now. This group and this forum is just fine for > doing that sort of thing. My thanks go out again to Mike for starting > it with his last post. > > Dave O > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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