Wilfred Crone's death was other old vegetarians ...

[Guest guest]

, " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote:

> Some of us who have kids want somewhere safe where they will not be

> oppressed as a minority. Mine have not suffered any problems so

far over us

> being vegan, but I have heard of vegan kids getting teased.

 

Our kids have never had any problems in this regard. Nor have any

other vegan kids I can think of (including Debbie's sister's 4

children up on the isle of Lewis)

[Guest guest]

Actually don't get me wrong I did sign up to a couple of pro-life groups as a potential befriender for women in crisis pregnancy, and it did not matter to me that they were not likely to be veggie or vegans I would be assigned to befriend (I didn't even mention about my veganism except in passing).

 

I still sometimes hope they will call on me to help someone locally, even though I'm more overstretched with three of my own kids now.

 

Of course I would feel a special bond if it happened that I was there for a veggie or vegan in this situation though.

 

Lesley

 

 

Heartwork [Heartwork]22 July 2002 21:54 Subject: Re: Wilfred Crone's death was Re: other old vegetarians ...

but these problems occur throughout the whole community. Why would we think about helping only one section.

 

Jo

 

 

 

For me the whole picture is about reverence for life, human as well as animal, it's also about supporting others in the community to facilitate a culture of respect for life (supporting one another and so preventing the desperation and fear that leads to abortion/suicide/euthanasia). I thought that would be the case for many vegans, most Ethical Vegans anyway.

 

Lesley

 

 

Heartwork [Heartwork]22 July 2002 18:20 Subject: Re: Wilfred Crone's death was Re: other old vegetarians ...

Lesley

 

Maybe people's 'whole pictures' are different.

 

Jo

 

Doesn't surprise me.

Whoever said vegans were consistent when it came to respecting life? Loads of them support abortion, euthanasia, etc, so they would think suicide was OK.

Just cos people are vegan, does not mean that many of them see the whole picture.

Wilfred Crone obviously didn't.

 

Lesley

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

I think we have both been lucky, but that is no excuse for complacency. The worst oppression of vegan families is usually from ignorant social workers and doctors, I know of at least 4 cases of this.

 

Lesley

 

 

quercusrobur2002 [grahamburnett]22 July 2002 22:20 Subject: Wilfred Crone's death was Re: other old vegetarians ..., "Lesley Dove" <Lesley@v...> wrote:> Some of us who have kids want somewhere safe where they will not be> oppressed as a minority. Mine have not suffered any problems so far over us> being vegan, but I have heard of vegan kids getting teased.Our kids have never had any problems in this regard. Nor have any other vegan kids I can think of (including Debbie's sister's 4 children up on the isle of Lewis)To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

Lesley

 

> Some of us who have kids want somewhere safe where they will not be oppressed as a minority. Mine have not suffered any problems so far over us being vegan, but I have heard of vegan kids getting teased.

 

Try joining the real world. I wasn't in any minority when I was a child, but I was still bullied. It's a rather unfortunate fact of life that children do get bullied at school because teachers don't do enough to stop it happening. Fact is that if a bully is going to pick on someone, they will find something to pick on. If your child wasn't vegan, it would be because they wear glasses, or because they are fat or thin, or because they are too tall, or because they have a mother who wants to segregate them from anyone with any differences, or for any other reason.

 

> You don't have kids, maybe if you do someday you will understand the need for a strong veggie/vegan community for them to feel

> they belong to, a community of like-minded people where you know there will be someone suitable to take them in if you and

> their other parent die young too.

 

I'm not quite sure why you think being a parent gives you some special insight into children. I would have thought the best qualifying factor would be the experience of being a child, in which case I believe I have the more recent experience. I can guarantee that I would have hated to have been segregated as a child because of something my parents believed. If my parents had been vegan, and had tried to keep me away from meat eaters, I can guarantee that it would have given me a thorough disdain for veganism, and I would have turned to meat eating at the first opportunity. I don't think you'll find that this will be any different with any child.

 

What also concerns me is the attitude that will be engendered in society by segregating vegan children. I used to go to school with a boy whose family had moved from South Africa because they didn't like apartheid - when he was younger, he had gone to a segregated school, and the effect that this had was to make it seem normal to treat blacks as second class. At the moment in our society, it is not acceptable to treat anyone as second class - but this would become the norm if any sector of society is segregated - is that the society you want to force onto your children?

 

BB

Peter

 

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[Guest guest]

but I have had children and I agree with Peter.

 

Jo

 

 

Some of us who have kids want somewhere safe where they will not be oppressed as a minority. Mine have not suffered any problems so far over us being vegan, but I have heard of vegan kids getting teased.

You don't have kids, maybe if you do someday you will understand the need for a strong veggie/vegan community for them to feel they belong to, a community of like-minded people where you know there will be someone suitable to take them in if you and their other parent die young too.

 

Lesley

 

 

Peter [snowbow]22 July 2002 20:09 Subject: Re: Wilfred Crone's death was Re: other old vegetarians ...

Lesley

 

> it's frustrating to have to send kids to a school run by animal-eaters too.

> Trouble is too many of the veggie/vegan community are obsessed with integration with animal eaters, instead of concentrating on

> serving their own people by building veggie and vegan institutions for education, care and support.

 

I really find this way of thinking very frightening. I can see it leading ultimately to only one place - apartheid and concentration camps. If a group of people decide to set themselves apart from everyone else in society, then it can only go one of two ways - the group will either be the persecutors or the persecuted.

 

Personally, I don't want a society run along the lines of white-dominated South Africa or Nazi Germany. I am very happy to integrate with those who are different. I guess that means in a world of vegan-led oppression, I would have to be locked up too, as I would be a danger to the regime.

 

How, exactly, do you suppose we could create an air of understanding with people who we look down on and refuse to talk to?

 

"First they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew....

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist....

Then they came for the communists, and I did not speak out because I was not a communist....

Then they came for me, and there was nobody left to speak out for me." Martin Neimoller

 

BB

Peter

 

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[Guest guest]

Well, really, there is no considerate way to kill yourself, if you think about it. Somebody will suffer, no matter how you do it. There has to be someone to find your body, and people around you that are questioning if there was something they could have done. Although, throwing yourself in front of public transportation is probably more inconsiderate than most ways...

 

- Muffy

 

-

Ian McDonald

Monday, July 22, 2002 1:29 AM

Re: Wilfred Crone's death was Re: other old vegetarians ...

quercusrobur2002 wrote:> > Thread head made me think of Wilfred Crone (author of 'Sunshine & > Shadow'), who was a fruitarian for donkey's years, but decided when> his faculties and independance started to fail to 'non-violently'> end his own life by walking in front of a train.> > Maybe I've got that story wrong, but it seems that nobody in vegan> circles has ever questioned his actions...> I'm not sufficiently well-informed to know of him. But I'd question hisactions, given half a chance.Walking in front of a train is not a considerate way to kill yourself.Neither for the train driver, nor for the people using public transport.(Which we want to encourage, right?)-- Ian McDonaldhttp://www.mcdonald.me.uk/To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

> Well, really, there is no considerate way to kill yourself, if you

> think about it. Somebody will suffer, no matter how you do it. There

> has to be someone to find your body, and people around you that are

> questioning if there was something they could have done.

 

Not if you talk about it with people first.

 

But even if someone is going to have to suffer, then whose suffering counts

most? The person who is killing themself to avoid suffering, or the people

who find the body/wonder if there was something they could have done?

 

Michael

[Guest guest]

The latter. IMHO. Its not just the *wondering* but also the physical mess

to clear up even if its just a whole body with no blood etc. The mental

stuff comes later anyway and would you inflict unnecessary stress and

counselling on somebody else because they had to deal with your suicide?

 

Janey

 

 

 

 

> Not if you talk about it with people first.

>

> But even if someone is going to have to suffer, then whose suffering

counts

> most? The person who is killing themself to avoid suffering, or the

people

> who find the body/wonder if there was something they could have done?

>

> Michael

[Guest guest]

I just have to say from personal experience that causing suffering to others is

why I couldn't kill myself. I thought about it when I was around 13 years old.

I thought about it alot, actually. But I knew if I did it, it would just

destroy my mother. I couldn't do that to her. I guess that is why some people

go through with it. They just don't seem to understand that it will cause

suffering to others. That is why it is so important to be kind to each other.

Just knowing one person in this world loved me that much kept me alive.

 

Just for the record, I got over that and love my life now. I am happily married

and working on a second degree in college. Killing oneself is the easy way out

for the hurting person and puts so much sadness on others.

 

Hannah

 

 

Janey

 

7/23/2002 8:40 AM

Re: Wilfred Crone's death was Re: other old vegetarians

....

 

The latter. IMHO. Its not just the *wondering* but also the physical

mess

to clear up even if its just a whole body with no blood etc. The mental

stuff comes later anyway and would you inflict unnecessary stress and

counselling on somebody else because they had to deal with your suicide?

 

Janey

 

 

 

 

> Not if you talk about it with people first.

>

> But even if someone is going to have to suffer, then whose suffering

counts

> most? The person who is killing themself to avoid suffering, or the

people

> who find the body/wonder if there was something they could have done?

>

> Michael

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

>The mental

>stuff comes later anyway and would you inflict unnecessary stress and

>counselling on somebody else because they had to deal with your suicide?

 

I would have to say yes (I'd by hypocritical otherwise) if it's the lesser

of two evils because I also don't want to have stress and counselling

unnecessary inflicted upon me.

 

Michael

[Guest guest]

That could also be deemed as selfish, no?

 

Janey

x

 

 

 

> I would have to say yes (I'd by hypocritical otherwise) if it's the lesser

> of two evils because I also don't want to have stress and counselling

> unnecessary inflicted upon me.

>

> Michael

[Guest guest]

Hi Janey / Michael

 

> That could also be deemed as selfish, no?

 

Isn't everything we do selfish? For instance - how many of us would be vegan

if it didn't make us feel better about ourselves? I know we do it because it

helps animals, the environment, etc. etc. but ultimately it is because it

makes us feel better about ourselves!

 

OK - maybe I'm cynical, but that's the way I see things!

 

BB

Peter

 

 

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[Guest guest]

I wasn't saying necessarily that the person's suffering isn't as important as the people who would be affected, just that there will always be someone who is affected by the suicide. In that sense, it doesn't seem considerate. But making a decision not to prolong (in general, artificially) the suffering of a terminal disease is a lot different than throwing yourself in front of a train. In that circumstance I don't think I'd call it inconsiderate.

 

- Muffy

 

-

Mavreela

Tuesday, July 23, 2002 7:16 AM

Re: Wilfred Crone's death was Re: other old vegetarians ...

> Well, really, there is no considerate way to kill yourself, if you > think about it. Somebody will suffer, no matter how you do it. There > has to be someone to find your body, and people around you that are > questioning if there was something they could have done.Not if you talk about it with people first.But even if someone is going to have to suffer, then whose suffering counts most? The person who is killing themself to avoid suffering, or the people who find the body/wonder if there was something they could have done?MichaelTo send an email to -

[Guest guest]

I became vegan because I was repulsed by eating animal products, not to make

myself feel better.

 

Janey

x

 

-

" Peter " <Snowbow

 

Tuesday, July 23, 2002 5:18 PM

Re: Wilfred Crone's death was Re: other old

vegetarians ...

 

 

> Hi Janey / Michael

>

> > That could also be deemed as selfish, no?

>

> Isn't everything we do selfish? For instance - how many of us would be

vegan

> if it didn't make us feel better about ourselves? I know we do it because

it

> helps animals, the environment, etc. etc. but ultimately it is because it

> makes us feel better about ourselves!

>

> OK - maybe I'm cynical, but that's the way I see things!

>

> BB

> Peter

>

>

> ---

> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

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> Version: 6.0.375 / Virus Database: 210 - Release 10/07/02

>

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

>

[Guest guest]

>That could also be deemed as selfish, no?

 

Indeed. Hence lesser of two evils.

 

Michael

[Guest guest]

>I became vegan because I was repulsed by eating animal products, not to make

>myself feel better.

 

I think what Peter is saying is that part of the reason you became vegan is

to stop feeling repulsed, a purely selfish intent.

 

That of course in no way diminishes the reasons why you felt repulsed, nor

does it detract from whether or not you acted ethically.

 

The simple fact is that all acts are by definition selfish if the self is

involved. No act can be truly indifferent to the self.

 

Michael

[Guest guest]

>OK - maybe I'm cynical, but that's the way I see things!

 

Only cynical if you focus on the selfish intentions over other reasons.

 

Michael

[Guest guest]

Yes, I see what you're saying. Thanks for explaining. :-)

 

Janey

x

 

> I think what Peter is saying is that part of the reason you became vegan

is

> to stop feeling repulsed, a purely selfish intent.

>

> That of course in no way diminishes the reasons why you felt repulsed, nor

> does it detract from whether or not you acted ethically.

>

> The simple fact is that all acts are by definition selfish if the self is

> involved. No act can be truly indifferent to the self.

>

> Michael

[Guest guest]

Hannah

 

I'm glad you are still here.

 

BB

Jo

 

 

> I just have to say from personal experience that causing suffering to

others is why I couldn't kill myself. I thought about it when I was around

13 years old. I thought about it alot, actually. But I knew if I did it,

it would just destroy my mother. I couldn't do that to her. I guess that

is why some people go through with it. They just don't seem to understand

that it will cause suffering to others. That is why it is so important to

be kind to each other. Just knowing one person in this world loved me that

much kept me alive.

>

> Just for the record, I got over that and love my life now. I am happily

married and working on a second degree in college. Killing oneself is the

easy way out for the hurting person and puts so much sadness on others.

>

> Hannah

>

>

> Janey

>

> 7/23/2002 8:40 AM

> Re: Wilfred Crone's death was Re: other old

vegetarians ...

>

> The latter. IMHO. Its not just the *wondering* but also the physical

> mess

> to clear up even if its just a whole body with no blood etc. The mental

> stuff comes later anyway and would you inflict unnecessary stress and

> counselling on somebody else because they had to deal with your suicide?

>

> Janey

>

>

>

>

> > Not if you talk about it with people first.

> >

> > But even if someone is going to have to suffer, then whose suffering

> counts

> > most? The person who is killing themself to avoid suffering, or the

> people

> > who find the body/wonder if there was something they could have done?

> >

> > Michael

>

>

>

>

>

>