dear Lesley

[Guest guest]

not all alcohol is vegan

[Guest guest]

First of all thank you so much for your long and interesting email,and understand you and suport you, I too think a vegan that doesn't want to harm shouldn't smoke no way, and fight helpind 2nd hand smoker always; the same goes on with the silly habit of drinking alchool in any of his forms; Alchool is a drug, and too many people see it as a socializing behaviour, a cool thing, some say it's healthy (beer especially) The home of smoking parents is a porquery for any child, for any human and any animal around, any plant in the house of a smoker looks sick; the same applies to the home of a drinker, or drinking parents, just awfull and unhealthy as well as no spiritual concern about others around them;

Dear Leslie,let me tell you that I was too in a home were I wanted to eat salats since I was a chil, and fruits; meat made me puke, I felt sorry for the rabbits that I saw alive and then in the stew, I felt porks and chicken as they were kept in captivity in those donjons were dirty and poor things too! I was obliged to eat that shit, and milk that made me so sick, yogurts smellt bad too me, so they made me swallow them with huge amounts of sugar; I was obliged to eat raw eggyolk with sugar to fatten me up; and I was dreaming of potatoes and pasta, with tomatoes...I told my family it was disgusting to kill bugs to eat them up, and especially not the rabits, my poor friends in those uggly cages!!!

They told me: "I was crazy, those things are there to be eaten, what would we do with all of them!"

The butchery was a disgusting smell and scenary too...

I knew there was other stuf to eat out there...

I had one sickness after the other; severe tonsilitis (the amigdal infected) I was born with one kidney smaller then the other and I had many infections in the kidneys and a terrible anemia, and permanent cough attacks in the winther like the croup...isn't that so stupid !!! and I was fed with meet and cold meet three times a day,,, (when "normal"people say your child will be anemic if you don't stuff him/her with meet I really laugh!)I knew it was the food, and I red lots of books from the library(my heavenly paradise on earth) as soon as I was allowed in it (with 12 years) on healty food... still they said in the books milk and eggs were good, but it made me feel sick any way...Only one pediatrist told my parents was not really good for some kids, and for human in general, especially grown up ones... They listened, and when we went home they said :"he was a nutter!"I felt lost !

Later on I discoverd Gandhis' life and decided to become a vegetarian and of course a non-smoker...

I took up (hiding away from my parents as I was only 14) some yoga lessons...and decided non-violence was my thing.

I had a pretty good health after a few ditox-crisis...

And the most important was I learned to feel compation for idiots, because it's like "getting angry at a donkey for not beeing a horse".

Their mind have no power and no interest to do what you and me had, either their ignorance either their violence and anger hinders them to be open for the best, to be gentle and kind to others.

So as a vegan forgnivness is the best spice against smokers, drinkers, animal-killers, we have to set an example full of non-violence both with kind BUT FIRM ACTIONS, and with politness and FIRM CONVICTION that they usually don't have. So that respect will be around all mankind for the best... otherwise we will end up destroying our liver and heart BY ANGER & RESENTMENT & HATRED(which is not vegan either) otherwise I will slap in the face every smoker taht comes with his/her stink when I sip with pleasure my orangejuice on the terrace...

LETS DO MORE CAMPAIGNS

¿DO YOU START ONE WITH ME TODAY?

I am a freelance writer and columnist for a alternative health magazine, and I am always writing in the local newspaper every days...

Love

from

Bea

 

>"Lesley Dove"

> >

>RE: milk sucksssssssss >Mon, 19 Aug 2002 12:52:07 +0100 > > >Yeah milk sucks, I agree it's cruel and unhealthy, no denying that, but >let's not lose sight of the fact that the REAL huge cause of many diseases >such as heart disease and many cancers is tobacco smoke, and not only for >smokers, but for non-smokers in the same home or workplace as people >smoking. Second hand smoke is a great pollutant leading to early death and >disease in non-smokers and has been for many years, and it's not even their >fault, they are innocent victims. Non-smokers even get lung cancer too, and >they hardly ever would if it weren't for smokers. > >Smoking, both active ansd passive is linked to breast cancer as well as lung >and throat cancer, >http://ash.org/dangers/bcancer.html > > >As for sick kids, I know all about that, I was a sick kid because of my >mother smoking, my decision to go veggie and then vegan on ethical grounds >made NO DIFFERENCE to me healthwise although it made me feel I was a better >person for not harming animals. The only thing that helped me to be healthy >and alleviated my mucus and chest trouble (which in some people is dairy >linked) was moving away from my parents' home, I also had a constant >headache all through my childhood and within a couple of weeks of leaving >home, as well as the mucus and breathing trouble mostly clearing up, the >headache was also gone only to return whenever I was occasionally around >people smoking in a pub for instance. Leaving home at 19 was the first time >I felt like a real human being and not some sick weakling, and all because >of my mother and her dirty habit, which I was obviously always highly >allergic to. I'm finally fighting back, I was poisoned and I am angry when >people almost totally blame other poisons in dairy for diseases for which >smoking is the real largest cause. > >I am vegan and committed to staying an ethical vegan for life, BUT I will >speak out when I see the vegan movement undermining anti-tobacco campaigning >by overstating the role of dairy in cancers. > >I can argue from experience of being a sickly child, and even if people >argue that they think smoking is not so bad (even some vegans smoke or used >to smoke and some of them tend to get sooo defensive, even to the point of >saying it is not at all linked to breast cancer), they cannot dispute how it >has been for me and the fact is I failed to reach my full potential because >of feeling so ill from second hand tobacco smoke poisoning in my early >years. > >If you smoke, it's not only your funeral, it may well be your loved ones' >funeral as well! >This message has not very well got through to AR people, I see so many of >them still smoking on demos and protests in the UK, it looks just so stupid >and pathetic and it's horrible for the rest of us, because even outdoors on >a march it drifts. I was on a marcn in London a few weeks ago and it was >really noticeable especially when we were sitting outside a pub afterwards >and a lot of the protesters were there, obviously we stayed outide, but even >then there a lot of them were smoking. Their veganism will not protect them >from the harm they are doing to themselves. > >Lesley > > > ibizkus [ibyza2001] > 19 August 2002 11:43 > > milk sucksssssssss > > > > Got... Breast Cancer? Prostate Cancer? Crohn's Disease? Heart > Disease Sick Kids? Osteoporosis Fat? Veal? Fat? Zits? Gas? Mucus? > Beer? > > > Click here for the truth about dairy products and strong bones. > > MILK SUCKS... > FOR THE ANIMALS: > Corporate-owned factories where cows are warehoused in huge sheds and > treated like milk machines have replaced most small family farms. > With genetic manipulation and intensive production technologies, it > is common for modern dairy cows to produce 100 pounds of milk a day— > 10 times more than they would produce in nature. To keep milk > production as high as possible, farmers artificially inseminate cows > every year. Growth hormones and unnatural milking schedules cause > dairy cows' udders to become painful and so heavy that they sometimes > drag on the ground, resulting in frequent infections and overuse of > antibiotics. Cows -- like all mammals -- make milk to feed their own > babies -- not humans. > > > Male calves, the "byproducts" of the dairy industry, endure 14 to17 > weeks of torment in veal crates so small that they can't even turn > around. Female calves often replace their old, worn-out mothers, or > are slaughtered soon after birth for the rennet in their stomachs (an > ingredient of most commercial cheeses). They are often kept in tiny > crates or tethered in stalls for the first few months of their lives, > only to grow up to become "milk machines" like their mothers. > > > FOR THE ENVIRONMENT: > Cow's milk is an inefficient food source. Cows, like humans, expend > the majority of their food intake simply leading their lives. It > takes a great deal of grain and other foodstuffs cycled through cows > to produce a small amount of milk. And not only is milk a waste of > energy and water, the production of milk is also a disastrous source > of water pollution. A dairy cow produces 120 pounds of waste every > day -- equal to that of two dozen people, but with no toilets, > sewers, or treatment plants. > > In Lancaster County, Pa., manure from dairy cows is destroying the > Chesapeake Bay, and in California, which produces one-fifth of the > country's total supply of milk, the manure from dairy farms has > poisoned vast expanses of underground water, rivers, and streams. In > the Central Valley of California, the cows produce as much excrement > as a city of 21 million people, and even a smallish farm of 200 cows > will produce as much nitrogen as in the sewage from a community of > 5,000 to 10,000 people, according to a U.S. Senate report on animal > waste. > > > > FOR YOUR HEALTH: > Dairy products are a health hazard. They contain no fiber or complex > carbohydrates and are laden with saturated fat and cholesterol. They > are contaminated with cow's blood and pus and are frequently > contaminated with pesticides, hormones, and antibiotics. Dairy > products are linked to allergies, constipation, obesity, heart > disease, cancer, and other diseases. > > The late Dr. Benjamin Spock, America's leading authority on child > care, spoke out against feeding cow's milk to children, saying it can > cause anemia, allergies, and insulin-dependent diabetes and in the > long term, will set kids up for obesity and heart disease, America's > number one cause of death. > > And dairy products may actually cause osteoporosis, not prevent it, > since their high-protein content leaches calcium from the body. > Population studies, backed up by a groundbreaking Harvard study of > more than 75,000 nurses, suggest that drinking milk can actually > cause osteoporosis. Find out more by visiting our links page. > > > > WHAT YOU CAN DO: > According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the average American > consumes more than 550 pounds of dairy products annually, which is 40 > percent of the bulk of the food we eat. Click here to see an > illustration of the "Food Pyramid" which is representative of actual > American eating habits. > > Give the bottle the boot! Instead, try delicious soy or rice milk, > soy cheese, Tofutti ice cream, and tofu sour cream and cream cheese. > All are widely available at health food stores and many supermarkets. > Click here for information on adopting a dairy-free diet. > > > > In The News > > Anit-milk ad 'a cheap point at the expense of Catholics' (The > Vancouver Sun) > > Factory Dairies Invade Wisconsin (Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel) > > White Poison: The Horrors of Milk(Times of India) > > > > > > > > "There's no reason to drink cow's milk at any time in your life. It > was designed for calves, not humans, and we should all stop drinking > it today." > -Dr. Frank A. Oski > Former Director of Pediatrics, Johns Hopkins University > > > > People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals > 501 Front St., Norfolk, VA 23510; 757-622-PETA > MilkSucks.comLiving Dairy-FreeFind Out MoreFree Vegetarian Starter > PackVegNow.com > > > > >

[Guest guest]

, " B. B. " <ibyza2001@h...> wrote:

 

> So as a vegan forgnivness is the best spice against smokers,

drinkers,

 

And what, pray, is so 'violent' about drinking that I should seek

your 'vegan forgiveness' oh sanctimonious one???

[Guest guest]

Well it does make some people violent and harms your liver and kills brain cells. It will be likely to catch up with you eventually if you drink above a safe level. I'm not teetotal, strict moderation for me.

 

Lesley

 

 

quercusrobur2002 [grahamburnett]19 August 2002 20:19 Subject: Re: dear Lesley, "B. B." <ibyza2001@h...> wrote:> So as a vegan forgnivness is the best spice against smokers, drinkers, And what, pray, is so 'violent' about drinking that I should seek your 'vegan forgiveness' oh sanctimonious one???To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

, " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote:

>

> Well it does make some people violent

 

Doesn't follow that everyone who drinks is violent.

 

Still not clear why I should be seeking 'vegan forgiveness' for

drinking alcohol unless one follows the highly tenuous arguement

that yeast are part of the animal kingdom.

[Guest guest]

watching tv makes some people violent.....

 

just cuz you have a beer doesn't mean yer going to grab an uzi and take out the

local post office....

fraggle

 

" Lesley Dove " <Lesley wrote:

 

>

>Well it does make some people violent and harms your liver and kills brain

>cells. It will be likely to catch up with you eventually if you drink above

>a safe level. I'm not teetotal, strict moderation for me.

>

>Lesley

>

>  

>  quercusrobur2002 [grahamburnett]

>  19 August 2002 20:19

>  

>   Re: dear Lesley

>

>

>  , " B. B. " <ibyza2001@h...> wrote:

>

>  > So as a vegan forgnivness is the best spice against smokers,

>  drinkers,

>

>  And what, pray, is so 'violent' about drinking that I should seek

>  your 'vegan forgiveness' oh sanctimonious one???

>

>

>        

[Guest guest]

you have my forgivness graham

*annoints thee with olive oil*

 

 

" quercusrobur2002 " <grahamburnett wrote:

 

>, " B. B. " <ibyza2001@h...> wrote:

>

>> So as a vegan forgnivness is the best spice against smokers,

>drinkers,

>

>And what, pray, is so 'violent' about drinking that I should seek

>your 'vegan forgiveness' oh sanctimonious one???

>

>

>

>To send an email to -

>

>

[Guest guest]

And let us not forget the infamous 'Twinky Defense' in which Dan

White, the murderer of San fransico's gay mayor Harvey Milk, tried

to plead diminished responsibility due to consuming too much

chemical laden junk food...

 

, EBbrewpunx@c... wrote:

>

> watching tv makes some people violent.....

>

> just cuz you have a beer doesn't mean yer going to grab an uzi and

take out the local post office....

> fraggle

>

[Guest guest]

, EBbrewpunx@c... wrote:

> you have my forgivness graham

> *annoints thee with olive oil*

>

 

Can I be annoited with a couple of emailed bottles of your homebrew

instead???

 

cheers graham

[Guest guest]

makes me proud to live in the bay area

*rolls eyes*

wots better, is it worked for him!!!!

fraggle

 

 

" quercusrobur2002 " <grahamburnett wrote:

 

>And let us not forget the infamous 'Twinky Defense' in which Dan

>White, the murderer of San fransico's gay mayor Harvey Milk, tried

>to plead diminished responsibility due to consuming too much

>chemical laden junk food...

>

>, EBbrewpunx@c... wrote:

>>

>> watching tv makes some people violent.....

>>

>> just cuz you have a beer doesn't mean yer going to grab an uzi and

>take out the local post office....

>> fraggle

>>

>

>

>

>

>To send an email to -

>

>

[Guest guest]

sorry bea..i have to disagree

sure, alcohol can be bad..so can eating hostess cup cakes....

its all about moderation

if i drank soy milk by the gallon everyday, i'm sure that would make me sick as

well....

just my opnion of course

fraggle

*they can have my beer when they take it from my cold dead fingers..and hope i

don't come back as a zombie....*

 

" B. B. " <ibyza2001 wrote:

 

>

>

>First of all thank you so much for your long and interesting email,and

understand you and suport you, I too think a vegan that doesn't want to harm

shouldn't smoke no way, and fight helpind 2nd hand smoker always; the same goes

on with the silly habit of drinking alchool in any of his forms; Alchool is a

drug, and too many people see it as a socializing behaviour, a cool thing, some

say it's healthy (beer especially) The home of smoking parents is a porquery for

any child, for any human and any animal around, any plant in the house of a

smoker looks sick; the same applies to the home of a drinker, or drinking

parents, just awfull and unhealthy as well as no spiritual concern about others

around them;

>

>

>

>Dear Leslie,let me tell you that I was too in a home were I wanted to eat

salats since I was a chil, and fruits; meat made me puke, I felt sorry for the

rabbits that I saw alive and then in the stew, I felt porks and chicken as they

were kept in captivity in those donjons were dirty and poor things too! I was

obliged to eat that shit, and milk that made me so sick, yogurts smellt bad too

me, so they made me swallow them with huge amounts of sugar; I was obliged to

eat raw eggyolk with sugar to fatten me up; and I was dreaming of potatoes and

pasta, with tomatoes...I told my family it was disgusting to kill bugs to eat

them up, and especially not the rabits, my poor friends in those uggly cages!!!

>

>

>

>They told me: " I was crazy, those things are there to be eaten, what would we

do with all of them! "

>

>

>

>The butchery was a disgusting smell and scenary too...

>

>

>

>I knew there was other stuf to eat out there...

>

>

>

>I had one sickness after the other; severe tonsilitis (the amigdal infected) I

was born with one kidney smaller then the other and I had many infections in the

kidneys and a terrible anemia, and permanent cough attacks in the winther like

the croup...isn't that so stupid !!! and I was fed with meet and cold meet three

times a day,,, (when " normal " people say your child will be anemic if you don't

stuff him/her with meet I really laugh!)I knew it was the food, and I red lots

of books from the library(my heavenly paradise on earth) as soon as I was

allowed in it (with 12 years) on healty food... still they said in the books

milk and eggs were good, but it made me feel sick any way...Only one pediatrist

told my parents was not really good for some kids, and for human in general,

especially grown up ones... They listened, and when we went home they said : " he

was a nutter! " I felt lost !

>

>

>

>Later on I discoverd Gandhis' life and decided to become a vegetarian and of

course a non-smoker...

>

>

>

>I took up (hiding away from my parents as I was only 14) some yoga

lessons...and decided non-violence was my thing.

>

>

>

>I had a pretty good health after a few ditox-crisis...

>

>

>

>And the most important was I learned to feel compation for idiots, because it's

like " getting angry at a donkey for not beeing a horse " .

>

>

>

>Their mind have no power and no interest to do what you and me had, either

their ignorance either their violence and anger hinders them to be open for the

best, to be gentle and kind to others.

>

>

>

>So as a vegan forgnivness is the best spice against smokers, drinkers,

animal-killers, we have to set an example full of non-violence both with kind

BUT FIRM ACTIONS, and with politness andnbsp;FIRM CONVICTION that they usually

don't have. So that respect will be around all mankind for the best... otherwise

we will end up destroying our liver and heart BY ANGER

amp;RESENTMENTamp;HATRED(which is not vegan either) otherwise I will slap in the

face every smoker taht comes with his/her stink when I sip with pleasure my

orangejuice on the terrace...

>

>

>

>LETS DO MORE CAMPAIGNS

>

>

>

> DO YOU START ONE WITH ME TODAY?

>

>

>

>I am a freelance writer and columnist for a alternative health magazine, and I

am always writing in the local newspaper every days...

>

>

>

>Love

>

>

>

>from

>

>

>

>Bea

>

>  gt; " Lesley Dove "           gt;

gt; gt;RE: milk sucksssssssss gt;Mon, 19 Aug

2002 12:52:07 +0100 gt; gt; gt;Yeah milk sucks, I agree it's cruel and

unhealthy, no denying that, but gt;let's not lose sight of the fact that the

REAL huge cause of many diseases gt;such as heart disease and many cancers is

tobacco smoke, and not only for gt;smokers, but for non-smokers in the same home

or workplace as people gt;smoking. Second hand smoke is a great pollutant

leading to early death and gt;disease in non-smokers and has been for many

years, and it's not even their gt;fault, they are innocent victims. Non-smokers

even get lung cancer too, and gt;they hardly ever would if it weren't for

smokers. gt; gt;Smoking, both active ansd passive is linked to breast cancer as

well as lung gt;and throat cancer, gt;http://ash.org/dangers/bcancer.html gt;

gt; gt;As for sick kids, I know all about that, I was a sick kid because of my

gt;mother smoking, my decision to go veggie and then vegan on ethical grounds

gt;made NO DIFFERENCE to me healthwise although it made me feel I was a better

gt;person for not harming animals. The only thing that helped me to be healthy

gt;and alleviated my mucus and chest trouble (which in some people is dairy

gt;linked) was moving away from my parents' home, I also had a constant

gt;headache all through my childhood and within a couple of weeks of leaving

gt;home, as well as the mucus and breathing trouble mostly clearing up, the

gt;headache was also gone only to return whenever I was occasionally around

gt;people smoking in a pub for instance. Leaving home at 19 was the first time

gt;I felt like a real human being and not some sick weakling, and all because

gt;of my mother and her dirty habit, which I was obviously always highly

gt;allergic to. I'm finally fighting back, I was poisoned and I am angry when

gt;people almost totally blame other poisons in dairy for diseases for which

gt;smoking is the real largest cause. gt; gt;I am vegan and committed to staying

an ethical vegan for life, BUT I will gt;speak out when I see the vegan movement

undermining anti-tobacco campaigning gt;by overstating the role of dairy in

cancers. gt; gt;I can argue from experience of being a sickly child, and even if

people gt;argue that they think smoking is not so bad (even some vegans smoke or

used gt;to smoke and some of them tend to get sooo defensive, even to the point

of gt;saying it is not at all linked to breast cancer), they cannot dispute how

it gt;has been for me and the fact is I failed to reach my full potential

because gt;of feeling so ill from second hand tobacco smoke poisoning in my

early gt;years. gt; gt;If you smoke, it's not only your funeral, it may well be

your loved ones' gt;funeral as well! gt;This message has not very well got

through to AR people, I see so many of gt;them still smoking on demos and

protests in the UK, it looks just so stupid gt;and pathetic and it's horrible

for the rest of us, because even outdoors on gt;a march it drifts. I was on a

marcn in London a few weeks ago and it was gt;really noticeable especially when

we were sitting outside a pub afterwards gt;and a lot of the protesters were

there, obviously we stayed outide, but even gt;then there a lot of them were

smoking. Their veganism will not protect them gt;from the harm they are doing to

themselves. gt; gt;Lesley gt; gt; gt; ibizkus

[ibyza2001] gt; 19 August 2002 11:43 gt; To:

gt; milk sucksssssssss gt; gt;

gt; gt; Got... Breast Cancer? Prostate Cancer? Crohn's Disease? Heart gt;

Disease Sick Kids? Osteoporosis Fat? Veal? Fat? Zits? Gas? Mucus? gt; Beer? gt;

gt; gt; Click here for the truth about dairy products and strong bones. gt; gt;

MILK SUCKS... gt; FOR THE ANIMALS: gt; Corporate-owned factories where cows are

warehoused in huge sheds and gt; treated like milk machines have replaced most

small family farms. gt; With genetic manipulation and intensive production

technologies, it gt; is common for modern dairy cows to produce 100 pounds of

milk a day— gt; 10 times more than they would produce in nature. To keep milk

gt; production as high as possible, farmers artificially inseminate cows gt;

every year. Growth hormones and unnatural milking schedules cause gt; dairy

cows' udders to become painful and so heavy that they sometimes gt; drag on the

ground, resulting in frequent infections and overuse of gt; antibiotics. Cows --

like all mammals -- make milk to feed their own gt; babies -- not humans. gt;

gt; gt; Male calves, the " byproducts " of the dairy industry, endure 14 to17 gt;

weeks of torment in veal crates so small that they can't even turn gt; around.

Female calves often replace their old, worn-out mothers, or gt; are slaughtered

soon after birth for the rennet in their stomachs (an gt; ingredient of most

commercial cheeses). They are often kept in tiny gt; crates or tethered in

stalls for the first few months of their lives, gt; only to grow up to become

" milk machines " like their mothers. gt; gt; gt; FOR THE ENVIRONMENT: gt; Cow's

milk is an inefficient food source. Cows, like humans, expend gt; the majority

of their food intake simply leading their lives. It gt; takes a great deal of

grain and other foodstuffs cycled through cows gt; to produce a small amount of

milk. And not only is milk a waste of gt; energy and water, the production of

milk is also a disastrous source gt; of water pollution. A dairy cow produces

120 pounds of waste every gt; day -- equal to that of two dozen people, but with

no toilets, gt; sewers, or treatment plants. gt; gt; In Lancaster County, Pa.,

manure from dairy cows is destroying the gt; Chesapeake Bay, and in California,

which produces one-fifth of the gt; country's total supply of milk, the manure

from dairy farms has gt; poisoned vast expanses of underground water, rivers,

and streams. In gt; the Central Valley of California, the cows produce as much

excrement gt; as a city of 21 million people, and even a smallish farm of 200

cows gt; will produce as much nitrogen as in the sewage from a community of gt;

5,000 to 10,000 people, according to a U.S. Senate report on animal gt; waste.

gt; gt; gt; gt; FOR YOUR HEALTH: gt; Dairy products are a health hazard. They

contain no fiber or complex gt; carbohydrates and are laden with saturated fat

and cholesterol. They gt; are contaminated with cow's blood and pus and are

frequently gt; contaminated with pesticides, hormones, and antibiotics. Dairy

gt; products are linked to allergies, constipation, obesity, heart gt; disease,

cancer, and other diseases. gt; gt; The late Dr. Benjamin Spock, America's

leading authority on child gt; care, spoke out against feeding cow's milk to

children, saying it can gt; cause anemia, allergies, and insulin-dependent

diabetes and in the gt; long term, will set kids up for obesity and heart

disease, America's gt; number one cause of death. gt; gt; And dairy products may

actually cause osteoporosis, not prevent it, gt; since their high-protein

content leaches calcium from the body. gt; Population studies, backed up by a

groundbreaking Harvard study of gt; more than 75,000 nurses, suggest that

drinking milk can actually gt; cause osteoporosis. Find out more by visiting our

links page. gt; gt; gt; gt; WHAT YOU CAN DO: gt; According to the U.S.

Department of Agriculture, the average American gt; consumes more than 550

pounds of dairy products annually, which is 40 gt; percent of the bulk of the

food we eat. Click here to see an gt; illustration of the " Food Pyramid " which

is representative of actual gt; American eating habits. gt; gt; Give the bottle

the boot! Instead, try delicious soy or rice milk, gt; soy cheese, Tofutti ice

cream, and tofu sour cream and cream cheese. gt; All are widely available at

health food stores and many supermarkets. gt; Click here for information on

adopting a dairy-free diet. gt; gt; gt; gt; In The News gt; gt; Anit-milk ad 'a

cheap point at the expense of Catholics' (The gt; Vancouver Sun) gt; gt; Factory

Dairies Invade Wisconsin (Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel) gt; gt; White Poison: The

Horrors of Milk(Times of India) gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; " There's no

reason to drink cow's milk at any time in your life. It gt; was designed for

calves, not humans, and we should all stop drinking gt; it today. " gt; -Dr.

Frank A. Oski gt; Former Director of Pediatrics, Johns Hopkins University gt;

gt; gt; gt; People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals gt; 501 Front St.,

Norfolk, VA 23510; 757-622-PETA gt; MilkSucks.comLiving Dairy-FreeFind Out

MoreFree Vegetarian Starter gt; PackVegNow.com gt; gt; gt; gt; gt;

Sponsor gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; To send an email to

- gt; gt;

[Guest guest]

I know I was unable to function mentally normally as a child due to my mother poisoning me with her smoking. My head ached all the time in addition to my bad chestiness, and I was so irritable with the other kids at school because I felt awful. I underachieved both academically and socially, socially mostly I had problems. Recent studies have linked parental smoking with childhood behaviour problems such as ADHD, this is no surprise to me, I already knew first hand that there was a connection! When I left home I actually started to feel human for the first time.

 

The twinky defense murderer probably had a point.

 

Lesley

 

 

quercusrobur2002 [grahamburnett]19 August 2002 21:52 Subject: Re: dear LesleyAnd let us not forget the infamous 'Twinky Defense' in which Dan White, the murderer of San fransico's gay mayor Harvey Milk, tried to plead diminished responsibility due to consuming too much chemical laden junk food..., EBbrewpunx@c... wrote:> > watching tv makes some people violent.....> > just cuz you have a beer doesn't mean yer going to grab an uzi and take out the local post office....> fraggle> To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

Bea

 

I like your saying - it is one I am sure I will use many times :-)

 

Jo

 

>And the most important was I learned to feel compation for idiots, because it's like "getting angry at a >donkey for not beeing a horse".

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

I don't think alcohol makes people violent. I think if someone has a violent personality they will be violent when drunk (and maybe when not as well). Alcohol makes people sleepy, giggly, miserable. I think it just depends on the personality of the person.

 

Jo

teetotal

 

Well it does make some people violent and harms your liver and kills brain cells. It will be likely to catch up with you eventually if you drink above a safe level. I'm not teetotal, strict moderation for me.

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

....and you can get nutmeg poisoning!

 

Jo

 

> sorry bea..i have to disagree

> sure, alcohol can be bad..so can eating hostess cup cakes....

> its all about moderation

> if i drank soy milk by the gallon everyday, i'm sure that would make me

sick as well....

> just my opnion of course

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

I guess I must have been lucky. My family consisted of four grown up smokers, whom I loved very much. Were you unhappy about other things?

 

Personally I think ADHD or whatever it is called is not an illness. I think it is a child's way of trying to get the love, attention and fun it needs.

 

Jo

 

I know I was unable to function mentally normally as a child due to my mother poisoning me with her smoking. My head ached all the time in addition to my bad chestiness, and I was so irritable with the other kids at school because I felt awful. I underachieved both academically and socially, socially mostly I had problems. Recent studies have linked parental smoking with childhood behaviour problems such as ADHD, this is no surprise to me, I already knew first hand that there was a connection! When I left home I actually started to feel human for the first time.

 

The twinky defense murderer probably had a point.

 

Lesley

 

 

quercusrobur2002 [grahamburnett]19 August 2002 21:52 Subject: Re: dear LesleyAnd let us not forget the infamous 'Twinky Defense' in which Dan White, the murderer of San fransico's gay mayor Harvey Milk, tried to plead diminished responsibility due to consuming too much chemical laden junk food..., EBbrewpunx@c... wrote:> > watching tv makes some people violent.....> > just cuz you have a beer doesn't mean yer going to grab an uzi and take out the local post office....> fraggle> To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

My brother took up smoking when he was in his thirties. He had been away from his parental home for some time. Both our parents smoked, so he wasn't rebelling against anything.

 

Jo

 

But in the end the ones who continue the habit are mostly the ones who have seen it as normal and acceptable behaviour in their childhood, there are of course exceptions, but the general trend is that way.

 

Anyway what a stupid way to rebel smoking is. It seems to me that drugs including alcohol and tobacco are usually a way of rebelling that tends to be chosen by the generally less intelligent, or less self-confident and mature of teenagers. Some people find worthwhile ways to rebel, my decision as a teen was that if I did rebel I'd rather be a rebel with a cause than a rebel who does something self-destructive just for the sake of rebelling. I suppose going vegan was seen as teenage rebellion at the time I went vegan, but I just saw it as becoming a mature and responsible human being.

 

I thought there was research showing that that dairy and animal proteins actually take calcium out of the body, although milk contains a lot of calcium? Besides I'm vegan for animal rights not health, so it's irrelevant.

 

Lesley

 

 

Peter [snowbow]21 August 2002 21:11 Subject: Re: Re: dear Lesley

Oh come on Lesley

 

> You are so very wrong, the research says so time and time again. Seems my instinct is right and yours is wrong.

 

You know better than to trust "research" - if you trusted research then surely you would be consuming dairy in order to keep your calcium levels high.

 

You know as much as I do that research is carried out to prove a point one way or the other, not to try to find the truth.

 

*My* research (i.e. the people I know) states that most people who took up smoking as teenagers did so as a rebellion.

 

BB

Peter

 

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[Guest guest]

That is unusual, most of them start in their teens.

Why did he start do you think?

Maybe by being so anti-smoking I am rebelling against my mother? It's probably a bit of that as well as the way my body reacts to second hand smoke. But my mother was never one of those dreadful mums who actually wanted her child to smoke, and mothers like that do exist, there are some who actually encourage their kids to smoke from a young age, it's quite shocking the things I have discovered on a couple of .

 

Lesley

 

 

Heartwork [Heartwork]22 August 2002 16:10 Subject: Re: Re: dear Lesley

My brother took up smoking when he was in his thirties. He had been away from his parental home for some time. Both our parents smoked, so he wasn't rebelling against anything.

 

Jo

 

But in the end the ones who continue the habit are mostly the ones who have seen it as normal and acceptable behaviour in their childhood, there are of course exceptions, but the general trend is that way.

 

Anyway what a stupid way to rebel smoking is. It seems to me that drugs including alcohol and tobacco are usually a way of rebelling that tends to be chosen by the generally less intelligent, or less self-confident and mature of teenagers. Some people find worthwhile ways to rebel, my decision as a teen was that if I did rebel I'd rather be a rebel with a cause than a rebel who does something self-destructive just for the sake of rebelling. I suppose going vegan was seen as teenage rebellion at the time I went vegan, but I just saw it as becoming a mature and responsible human being.

 

I thought there was research showing that that dairy and animal proteins actually take calcium out of the body, although milk contains a lot of calcium? Besides I'm vegan for animal rights not health, so it's irrelevant.

 

Lesley

 

 

Peter [snowbow]21 August 2002 21:11 Subject: Re: Re: dear Lesley

Oh come on Lesley

 

> You are so very wrong, the research says so time and time again. Seems my instinct is right and yours is wrong.

 

You know better than to trust "research" - if you trusted research then surely you would be consuming dairy in order to keep your calcium levels high.

 

You know as much as I do that research is carried out to prove a point one way or the other, not to try to find the truth.

 

*My* research (i.e. the people I know) states that most people who took up smoking as teenagers did so as a rebellion.

 

BB

Peter

 

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[Guest guest]

>I thought there was research showing that that dairy and animal proteins

>actually take calcium out of the body, although milk contains a lot of

>calcium? Besides I'm vegan for animal rights not health, so it's irrelevant.

 

 

well..depends on why you think it is irrelevent

its good to know why you lose calcium if someone asks you..imo

its because excess protein causes the acidity in the blood to increase..to

counter this, calcium is taken from the body..ie bones..and added to the

bloodstream...then it is filtered out thru the kidneysa nd goes bye bye

fraggle

>

>Lesley

>

>  

>  Peter [snowbow]

>  21 August 2002 21:11

>  

>  Re: Re: dear Lesley

>

>

>  Oh come on Lesley

>

>  > You are so very wrong, the research says so time and time again. Seems

>my instinct is right and yours is wrong.

>

>  You know better than to trust " research " - if you trusted research then

>surely you would be consuming dairy in order to keep your calcium levels

>high.

>

>  You know as much as I do that research is carried out to prove a point one

>way or the other, not to try to find the truth.

>

>  *My* research (i.e. the people I know) states that most people who took up

>smoking as teenagers did so as a rebellion.

>

>  BB

>  Peter

>

>

>  ---

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>

>        

[Guest guest]

I honestly don't know why he started. I think he was a bit shy, and it was something to do. He only ever smoked cigars - so maybe there was a little snob value involved.

 

Jo

 

 

 

That is unusual, most of them start in their teens.

Why did he start do you think?

Maybe by being so anti-smoking I am rebelling against my mother? It's probably a bit of that as well as the way my body reacts to second hand smoke. But my mother was never one of those dreadful mums who actually wanted her child to smoke, and mothers like that do exist, there are some who actually encourage their kids to smoke from a young age, it's quite shocking the things I have discovered on a couple of .

 

Lesley

 

 

Heartwork [Heartwork]22 August 2002 16:10 Subject: Re: Re: dear Lesley

My brother took up smoking when he was in his thirties. He had been away from his parental home for some time. Both our parents smoked, so he wasn't rebelling against anything.

 

Jo

 

But in the end the ones who continue the habit are mostly the ones who have seen it as normal and acceptable behaviour in their childhood, there are of course exceptions, but the general trend is that way.

 

Anyway what a stupid way to rebel smoking is. It seems to me that drugs including alcohol and tobacco are usually a way of rebelling that tends to be chosen by the generally less intelligent, or less self-confident and mature of teenagers. Some people find worthwhile ways to rebel, my decision as a teen was that if I did rebel I'd rather be a rebel with a cause than a rebel who does something self-destructive just for the sake of rebelling. I suppose going vegan was seen as teenage rebellion at the time I went vegan, but I just saw it as becoming a mature and responsible human being.

 

I thought there was research showing that that dairy and animal proteins actually take calcium out of the body, although milk contains a lot of calcium? Besides I'm vegan for animal rights not health, so it's irrelevant.

 

Lesley

 

 

Peter [snowbow]21 August 2002 21:11 Subject: Re: Re: dear Lesley

Oh come on Lesley

 

> You are so very wrong, the research says so time and time again. Seems my instinct is right and yours is wrong.

 

You know better than to trust "research" - if you trusted research then surely you would be consuming dairy in order to keep your calcium levels high.

 

You know as much as I do that research is carried out to prove a point one way or the other, not to try to find the truth.

 

*My* research (i.e. the people I know) states that most people who took up smoking as teenagers did so as a rebellion.

 

BB

Peter

 

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[Guest guest]

Thanks Fraggle, I quite believe it, all I meant was that it was irrelevant to the actual reason I went vegan, but not irrelevant in educating people.

 

The original conversation was about research and I mentioned some research which backed me up, about smoking or not smoking being linked to whether parents smoked and their attitides, but Peter poo-poohed it, in favour of what he knew of just a few people. He generally seemed sceptical of research and said that if I was to believe research I would eat dairy, because of the calcium in it, but I argued that I thought the research showed what you just described, so I think it is Peter and not me who is possibly unaware of the research supporting avoidance of dairy as being healthy.

 

Lesley

 

 

EBbrewpunx [EBbrewpunx]22 August 2002 17:53 Subject: RE: Re: dear Lesley>I thought there was research showing that that dairy and animal proteins>actually take calcium out of the body, although milk contains a lot of>calcium? Besides I'm vegan for animal rights not health, so it's irrelevant.well..depends on why you think it is irreleventits good to know why you lose calcium if someone asks you..imoits because excess protein causes the acidity in the blood to increase..to counter this, calcium is taken from the body..ie bones..and added to the bloodstream...then it is filtered out thru the kidneysa nd goes bye byefraggle>>Lesley>> > Peter [snowbow]> 21 August 2002 21:11> > Re: Re: dear Lesley>>> Oh come on Lesley>> > You are so very wrong, the research says so time and time again. Seems>my instinct is right and yours is wrong.>> You know better than to trust "research" - if you trusted research then>surely you would be consuming dairy in order to keep your calcium levels>high.>> You know as much as I do that research is carried out to prove a point one>way or the other, not to try to find the truth.>> *My* research (i.e. the people I know) states that most people who took up>smoking as teenagers did so as a rebellion.>> BB> Peter>>> ---> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).> Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release 02/08/02>>

[Guest guest]

Lesley

 

> But in the end the ones who continue the habit are mostly the ones who have seen it as normal and acceptable behaviour in their

> childhood, there are of course exceptions, but the general trend is that way.

 

Ummmm - no. The ones who continue are the ones who become addicted to nicotine!

 

> Anyway what a stupid way to rebel smoking is.

 

I agree, but many people are stupid.

 

> I thought there was research showing that that dairy and animal proteins actually take calcium out of the body, although milk

> contains a lot of calcium?

 

That depends on whether you go on the research funded by the Milk Marketing Board, or the research funded by PETA. I make no judgement either way, but ultimately which ever piece of research you believe, it is due to your personal views.

 

BB

Peter

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi Peter!

 

I like yer last statement!

Generalized it applies to many things and a path I try to follow.

 

nikki

 

, " Peter " <Snowbow@b...> wrote:

 

>

> That depends on whether you go on the research funded by the Milk

Marketing Board, or the research funded by PETA. I make no judgement

either way, but ultimately which ever piece of research you believe,

it is due to your personal views.

>

> BB

> Peter

>

[Guest guest]

I've honestly never seen any research that confirms your view of who smokes though, just a few people talking about a few people they know. It's not about there being conflicting research in the case of smoking as far as I know

 

Lesley

 

 

 

Peter [snowbow]22 August 2002 18:47 Subject: Re: Re: dear Lesley

Lesley

 

> But in the end the ones who continue the habit are mostly the ones who have seen it as normal and acceptable behaviour in their

> childhood, there are of course exceptions, but the general trend is that way.

 

Ummmm - no. The ones who continue are the ones who become addicted to nicotine!

 

> Anyway what a stupid way to rebel smoking is.

 

I agree, but many people are stupid.

 

> I thought there was research showing that that dairy and animal proteins actually take calcium out of the body, although milk

> contains a lot of calcium?

 

That depends on whether you go on the research funded by the Milk Marketing Board, or the research funded by PETA. I make no judgement either way, but ultimately which ever piece of research you believe, it is due to your personal views.

 

BB

Peter

 

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[Guest guest]

I always prefer information based on people, rather than funded research. How could it be that say 50 people you know do one thing and funded research says that it should be the other way round.

 

Jo

 

 

 

I've honestly never seen any research that confirms your view of who smokes though, just a few people talking about a few people they know. It's not about there being conflicting research in the case of smoking as far as I know

 

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