Guest guest Posted August 19, 2002 Report Share Posted August 19, 2002 I agree fully that we can not go to a demo. and smoke, true! But many of us have been sick on dairy, egg and milk (I had no smokers around luckily in that remote place I lived in in that times) This can be fully demonstrated too, so first danger tabacoo OK 2nd meet 3rd dairy & eggs But I guess it depends on individuals' reaction and on beeing coherent, LET'S EVOLUTE & PUT A PECEFUL END TO SMOKE ADDICTION >"Lesley Dove" > > >RE: Re: milk sucksssssssss >Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:26:19 +0100 > > >Is it worth AR people smoking though if the smokers on demos and marches put >people who are sensitive like me off going? It makes me so ill, that I am >considering not going on a march again if I have to be surrounded by >cigarette smoke, I felt very sick on the demo in London and after outside >the pub, some of it might have been the car fumes in London but experience >has taught me that tobacco smoke affects me worse! I'm nmo use to anyone >I believe demos and protests for the animals should be strictly non-smoking >affairs, it creates a very bad impression on the public to have people >smoking. We have to present a nice clean living image. > >Dairy cows have no reason to feel let down by me, I am an ethical vegan and >will always promote veganism on animal rights grounds but I will not make >what I believe to be false claims about giving up dairy leading to improved >health and less mucus for instance, because in my experience it made no >difference to my health except mentally to my conscience and peace of mind. >My mucus and chest and head problems remained until I was able to live away >from second hand smoke. > >Lesley > > > cathyjupp [cj] > 19 August 2002 13:29 > > Re: milk sucksssssssss > > > > > BUT I will > > speak out when I see the vegan movement undermining anti-tobacco > campaigning > > by overstating the role of dairy in cancers. > > That would be overstating IN YOUR OPINION, would it? I'm sure that > dairy cows everywhere would like to thank you. > > Their veganism will not protect them > > from the harm they are doing to themselves. > > > > The only vegans I know personally aren't vegan for their health, but > for the animals' (I know a lot of Americals are, and some British of > course - I just haven't met any personally). I don't think that > anyone would reasonably argue that smoking was not bad for them - but > some people think it worth it. Veganism has little or nothing to do > with it. > > Is this going to turn into another anti-smoking forum? Shall I leave > now? > > Cathy > > ps Hallo everyone who knows me from before. Been lurking for a > while to see how everyone is and what's going on here - never > intended to post because I spend far too much time at the lists when > I get going, but you know how it is sometimes........ > > > > > > > > > > > > > ibizkus [ibyza2001@h...] > > 19 August 2002 11:43 > > > > milk sucksssssssss > > > > > > > > Got... Breast Cancer? Prostate Cancer? Crohn's Disease? Heart > > Disease Sick Kids? Osteoporosis Fat? Veal? Fat? Zits? Gas? Mucus? > > Beer? > > > > > > Click here for the truth about dairy products and strong bones. > > > > MILK SUCKS... > > FOR THE ANIMALS: > > Corporate-owned factories where cows are warehoused in huge sheds > and > > treated like milk machines have replaced most small family farms. > > With genetic manipulation and intensive production technologies, > it > > is common for modern dairy cows to produce 100 pounds of milk a > day— > > 10 times more than they would produce in nature. To keep milk > > production as high as possible, farmers artificially inseminate > cows > > every year. Growth hormones and unnatural milking schedules cause > > dairy cows' udders to become painful and so heavy that they > sometimes > > drag on the ground, resulting in frequent infections and overuse > of > > antibiotics. Cows -- like all mammals -- make milk to feed their > own > > babies -- not humans. > > > > > > Male calves, the "byproducts" of the dairy industry, endure 14 > to17 > > weeks of torment in veal crates so small that they can't even turn > > around. Female calves often replace their old, worn-out mothers, > or > > are slaughtered soon after birth for the rennet in their stomachs > (an > > ingredient of most commercial cheeses). They are often kept in > tiny > > crates or tethered in stalls for the first few months of their > lives, > > only to grow up to become "milk machines" like their mothers. > > > > > > FOR THE ENVIRONMENT: > > Cow's milk is an inefficient food source. Cows, like humans, > expend > > the majority of their food intake simply leading their lives. It > > takes a great deal of grain and other foodstuffs cycled through > cows > > to produce a small amount of milk. And not only is milk a waste of > > energy and water, the production of milk is also a disastrous > source > > of water pollution. A dairy cow produces 120 pounds of waste every > > day -- equal to that of two dozen people, but with no toilets, > > sewers, or treatment plants. > > > > In Lancaster County, Pa., manure from dairy cows is destroying the > > Chesapeake Bay, and in California, which produces one-fifth of the > > country's total supply of milk, the manure from dairy farms has > > poisoned vast expanses of underground water, rivers, and streams. > In > > the Central Valley of California, the cows produce as much > excrement > > as a city of 21 million people, and even a smallish farm of 200 > cows > > will produce as much nitrogen as in the sewage from a community of > > 5,000 to 10,000 people, according to a U.S. Senate report on > animal > > waste. > > > > > > > > FOR YOUR HEALTH: > > Dairy products are a health hazard. They contain no fiber or > complex > > carbohydrates and are laden with saturated fat and cholesterol. > They > > are contaminated with cow's blood and pus and are frequently > > contaminated with pesticides, hormones, and antibiotics. Dairy > > products are linked to allergies, constipation, obesity, heart > > disease, cancer, and other diseases. > > > > The late Dr. Benjamin Spock, America's leading authority on child > > care, spoke out against feeding cow's milk to children, saying it > can > > cause anemia, allergies, and insulin-dependent diabetes and in the > > long term, will set kids up for obesity and heart disease, > America's > > number one cause of death. > > > > And dairy products may actually cause osteoporosis, not prevent > it, > > since their high-protein content leaches calcium from the body. > > Population studies, backed up by a groundbreaking Harvard study of > > more than 75,000 nurses, suggest that drinking milk can actually > > cause osteoporosis. Find out more by visiting our links page. > > > > > > > > WHAT YOU CAN DO: > > According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the average > American > > consumes more than 550 pounds of dairy products annually, which > is 40 > > percent of the bulk of the food we eat. Click here to see an > > illustration of the "Food Pyramid" which is representative of > actual > > American eating habits. > > > > Give the bottle the boot! Instead, try delicious soy or rice milk, > > soy cheese, Tofutti ice cream, and tofu sour cream and cream > cheese. > > All are widely available at health food stores and many > supermarkets. > > Click here for information on adopting a dairy-free diet. > > > > > > > > In The News > > > > Anit-milk ad 'a cheap point at the expense of Catholics' (The > > Vancouver Sun) > > > > Factory Dairies Invade Wisconsin (Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel) > > > > White Poison: The Horrors of Milk(Times of India) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "There's no reason to drink cow's milk at any time in your life. > It > > was designed for calves, not humans, and we should all stop > drinking > > it today." > > -Dr. Frank A. Oski > > Former Director of Pediatrics, Johns Hopkins University > > > > > > > > People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals > > 501 Front St., Norfolk, VA 23510; 757-622-PETA > > MilkSucks.comLiving Dairy-FreeFind Out MoreFree Vegetarian > Starter > > PackVegNow.com > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 I'm getting almost past the stage of being peaceful with smokers, I'm even considering getting a pepper/tear gas spray and to hell with the fact that it is illegal in the UK (we have very little right to protect ourselves effectively from violent antisocial freaks in this country), to spray on smokers when they make me ill and are refusing to stub it out. If they are unreasonable, it's just a matter of self-defence, not attack as I see it since they are hurting me. They need to know the pain they are causing and maybe mace would just give them some idea of how second hand smoke inhalation feels to a sensitive person. I am considering a violent solution to the assault on my lungs in future because I was punched in the face for complaining about a smoker the other day so no more Mrs Peaceful Dove after the way I have suffered. I wouldn't carry a gun or a knife though, that would be taking it too far! I had a bad headache and blurred vision from being punched and had a bruised eyebrow and forehead. I was feeling so ill for days because the smoke had already caused me breathing trouble when I complained so I was wheezy for ages. My attacker has not been caught, the police are pretty hopeless. I will of course press charges if she is caught. Considering the circumstances that I was sitting down struggling to breathe when I was punched it was a particularly cowardly and callous attack. It was obvious to this woman that I was not in a position to fight back. I ended up behaving badly on the other vegan group just very soon after the attack and I think I was in a slightly confused state at the time, so that the balance of my mind was disturbed, but I still got banned from the group. Tobacco is not really an addiction, I don't believe in it as an addiction anyway. I think smokers just say that as an excuse, but it's all in their minds and it's just a habit that people choose to do because some people like to annoy other people, that is why youngsters start usually, to rebel and annoy someone, that is the true nature of the smoker. My dad and my gran had no problem quitting when I was young, and there were no nicotine chewing gums or patches then (people are spoilt these days!), they just quit on their own because they realised it was a deadly habit. I was proud of them both. Nowadays smokers whinge about how hard it is to quit, I'm sick of that, they don't know how lucky they are to get so much help on the health service, and to get their self-inflicted illnesses treated. I also don't think people like George Best and Larry Hagman (alcohol abusers) deserve new livers, if they don't care about their own that they are born with, and drink as much as thery did they should be low priority for transplants, I think, after children and people who could not have prevented their illness. The innocent victims should be helped more, the woman who hit me had most likely been drinking anyway, so much mindless violence is alcohol related, that has innocent victims too. I'm sorry that dairy made you ill, I'm glad it didn't affect me at all that way since I was already suffering from the smoke, but I guess we all have our own unique set of sensitivities and allergies. I can eat anything which most people class as food without any trouble, even as a meat-eater I never had constipation or any food allergies. I just choose veganism on ethical grounds. I think a food allergy would be easier to manage than a tobacco smoke allergy because many people think I am faking it. That is hard to handle. I've heard of someone else whose doctor said he was more likely allergic to cats or mold, when he complained that tobacco smoke affected him badly, I don't know why doctors should be so sceptical about this problem and try to blame other things. I even got accused behind my back of being "unsociable" in one animal rights group because I would not go in the smoky pub after protests with them, how unfair is that? They knew I couldn't bear being around smoke, and were not very understanding of my sensitivity. It's very inconsistent that they were against making animals smoke in lab experimenrts but wanted me to be forced to breathe in secondary smoke as a prerequisite to being a fully accepted one of their crowd. I guess social coercion to accept something damaging and unhealthy is OK with some AR people, because it's not actual force. I don't see it as the right way to treat one of your supposed friends. Lesley B. B. [ibyza2001]19 August 2002 18:35 Subject: I agree but I agree fully that we can not go to a demo. and smoke, true! But many of us have been sick on dairy, egg and milk (I had no smokers around luckily in that remote place I lived in in that times) This can be fully demonstrated too, so first danger tabacoo OK 2nd meet 3rd dairy & eggs But I guess it depends on individuals' reaction and on beeing coherent, LET'S EVOLUTE & PUT A PECEFUL END TO SMOKE ADDICTION >"Lesley Dove" > > >RE: Re: milk sucksssssssss >Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:26:19 +0100 > > >Is it worth AR people smoking though if the smokers on demos and marches put >people who are sensitive like me off going? It makes me so ill, that I am >considering not going on a march again if I have to be surrounded by >cigarette smoke, I felt very sick on the demo in London and after outside >the pub, some of it might have been the car fumes in London but experience >has taught me that tobacco smoke affects me worse! I'm nmo use to anyone >I believe demos and protests for the animals should be strictly non-smoking >affairs, it creates a very bad impression on the public to have people >smoking. We have to present a nice clean living image. > >Dairy cows have no reason to feel let down by me, I am an ethical vegan and >will always promote veganism on animal rights grounds but I will not make >what I believe to be false claims about giving up dairy leading to improved >health and less mucus for instance, because in my experience it made no >difference to my health except mentally to my conscience and peace of mind. >My mucus and chest and head problems remained until I was able to live away >from second hand smoke. > >Lesley > > > cathyjupp [cj] > 19 August 2002 13:29 > > Re: milk sucksssssssss > > > > > BUT I will > > speak out when I see the vegan movement undermining anti-tobacco > campaigning > > by overstating the role of dairy in cancers. > > That would be overstating IN YOUR OPINION, would it? I'm sure that > dairy cows everywhere would like to thank you. > > Their veganism will not protect them > > from the harm they are doing to themselves. > > > > The only vegans I know personally aren't vegan for their health, but > for the animals' (I know a lot of Americals are, and some British of > course - I just haven't met any personally). I don't think that > anyone would reasonably argue that smoking was not bad for them - but > some people think it worth it. Veganism has little or nothing to do > with it. > > Is this going to turn into another anti-smoking forum? Shall I leave > now? > > Cathy > > ps Hallo everyone who knows me from before. Been lurking for a > while to see how everyone is and what's going on here - never > intended to post because I spend far too much time at the lists when > I get going, but you know how it is sometimes........ > > > > > > > > > > > > > ibizkus [ibyza2001@h...] > > 19 August 2002 11:43 > > > > milk sucksssssssss > > > > > > > > Got... Breast Cancer? Prostate Cancer? Crohn's Disease? Heart > > Disease Sick Kids? Osteoporosis Fat? Veal? Fat? Zits? Gas? Mucus? > > Beer? > > > > > > Click here for the truth about dairy products and strong bones. > > > > MILK SUCKS... > > FOR THE ANIMALS: > > Corporate-owned factories where cows are warehoused in huge sheds > and > > treated like milk machines have replaced most small family farms. > > With genetic manipulation and intensive production technologies, > it > > is common for modern dairy cows to produce 100 pounds of milk a > day— > > 10 times more than they would produce in nature. To keep milk > > production as high as possible, farmers artificially inseminate > cows > > every year. Growth hormones and unnatural milking schedules cause > > dairy cows' udders to become painful and so heavy that they > sometimes > > drag on the ground, resulting in frequent infections and overuse > of > > antibiotics. Cows -- like all mammals -- make milk to feed their > own > > babies -- not humans. > > > > > > Male calves, the "byproducts" of the dairy industry, endure 14 > to17 > > weeks of torment in veal crates so small that they can't even turn > > around. Female calves often replace their old, worn-out mothers, > or > > are slaughtered soon after birth for the rennet in their stomachs > (an > > ingredient of most commercial cheeses). They are often kept in > tiny > > crates or tethered in stalls for the first few months of their > lives, > > only to grow up to become "milk machines" like their mothers. > > > > > > FOR THE ENVIRONMENT: > > Cow's milk is an inefficient food source. Cows, like humans, > expend > > the majority of their food intake simply leading their lives. It > > takes a great deal of grain and other foodstuffs cycled through > cows > > to produce a small amount of milk. And not only is milk a waste of > > energy and water, the production of milk is also a disastrous > source > > of water pollution. A dairy cow produces 120 pounds of waste every > > day -- equal to that of two dozen people, but with no toilets, > > sewers, or treatment plants. > > > > In Lancaster County, Pa., manure from dairy cows is destroying the > > Chesapeake Bay, and in California, which produces one-fifth of the > > country's total supply of milk, the manure from dairy farms has > > poisoned vast expanses of underground water, rivers, and streams. > In > > the Central Valley of California, the cows produce as much > excrement > > as a city of 21 million people, and even a smallish farm of 200 > cows > > will produce as much nitrogen as in the sewage from a community of > > 5,000 to 10,000 people, according to a U.S. Senate report on > animal > > waste. > > > > > > > > FOR YOUR HEALTH: > > Dairy products are a health hazard. They contain no fiber or > complex > > carbohydrates and are laden with saturated fat and cholesterol. > They > > are contaminated with cow's blood and pus and are frequently > > contaminated with pesticides, hormones, and antibiotics. Dairy > > products are linked to allergies, constipation, obesity, heart > > disease, cancer, and other diseases. > > > > The late Dr. Benjamin Spock, America's leading authority on child > > care, spoke out against feeding cow's milk to children, saying it > can > > cause anemia, allergies, and insulin-dependent diabetes and in the > > long term, will set kids up for obesity and heart disease, > America's > > number one cause of death. > > > > And dairy products may actually cause osteoporosis, not prevent > it, > > since their high-protein content leaches calcium from the body. > > Population studies, backed up by a groundbreaking Harvard study of > > more than 75,000 nurses, suggest that drinking milk can actually > > cause osteoporosis. Find out more by visiting our links page. > > > > > > > > WHAT YOU CAN DO: > > According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the average > American > > consumes more than 550 pounds of dairy products annually, which > is 40 > > percent of the bulk of the food we eat. Click here to see an > > illustration of the "Food Pyramid" which is representative of > actual > > American eating habits. > > > > Give the bottle the boot! Instead, try delicious soy or rice milk, > > soy cheese, Tofutti ice cream, and tofu sour cream and cream > cheese. > > All are widely available at health food stores and many > supermarkets. > > Click here for information on adopting a dairy-free diet. > > > > > > > > In The News > > > > Anit-milk ad 'a cheap point at the expense of Catholics' (The > > Vancouver Sun) > > > > Factory Dairies Invade Wisconsin (Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel) > > > > White Poison: The Horrors of Milk(Times of India) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "There's no reason to drink cow's milk at any time in your life. > It > > was designed for calves, not humans, and we should all stop > drinking > > it today." > > -Dr. Frank A. Oski > > Former Director of Pediatrics, Johns Hopkins University > > > > > > > > People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals > > 501 Front St., Norfolk, VA 23510; 757-622-PETA > > MilkSucks.comLiving Dairy-FreeFind Out MoreFree Vegetarian > Starter > > PackVegNow.com > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 Lesley - I'm serious here - go to your doctor and ask for counselling or some other form of anger management assistance. You are in serious danger of harming yourself (or someone else). You have already been punched in the face once and I can see it happening again, or worse, if you don't do something to manage your attitude. It is well over the top. You see yourself as taking reasonable steps to protect yourself, but I think your attitude has gone *way* past that. Cathy , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: > > I'm getting almost past the stage of being peaceful with smokers, I'm even > considering getting a pepper/tear gas spray and to hell with the fact that > it is illegal in the UK (we have very little right to protect ourselves > effectively from violent antisocial freaks in this country), to spray on > smokers when they make me ill and are refusing to stub it out. If they are > unreasonable, it's just a matter of self-defence, not attack as I see it > since they are hurting me. They need to know the pain they are causing and > maybe mace would just give them some idea of how second hand smoke > inhalation feels to a sensitive person. > > I am considering a violent solution to the assault on my lungs in future > because I was punched in the face for complaining about a smoker the other > day so no more Mrs Peaceful Dove after the way I have suffered. I wouldn't > carry a gun or a knife though, that would be taking it too far! I had a bad > headache and blurred vision from being punched and had a bruised eyebrow and > forehead. I was feeling so ill for days because the smoke had already caused > me breathing trouble when I complained so I was wheezy for ages. My attacker > has not been caught, the police are pretty hopeless. I will of course press > charges if she is caught. Considering the circumstances that I was sitting > down struggling to breathe when I was punched it was a particularly cowardly > and callous attack. It was obvious to this woman that I was not in a > position to fight back. I ended up behaving badly on the other vegan > group just very soon after the attack and I think I was in a slightly > confused state at the time, so that the balance of my mind was disturbed, > but I still got banned from the group. > > Tobacco is not really an addiction, I don't believe in it as an addiction > anyway. I think smokers just say that as an excuse, but it's all in their > minds and it's just a habit that people choose to do because some people > like to annoy other people, that is why youngsters start usually, to rebel > and annoy someone, that is the true nature of the smoker. My dad and my gran > had no problem quitting when I was young, and there were no nicotine chewing > gums or patches then (people are spoilt these days!), they just quit on > their own because they realised it was a deadly habit. I was proud of them > both. Nowadays smokers whinge about how hard it is to quit, I'm sick of > that, they don't know how lucky they are to get so much help on the health > service, and to get their self-inflicted illnesses treated. I also don't > think people like George Best and Larry Hagman (alcohol abusers) deserve new > livers, if they don't care about their own that they are born with, and > drink as much as thery did they should be low priority for transplants, I > think, after children and people who could not have prevented their illness. > The innocent victims should be helped more, the woman who hit me had most > likely been drinking anyway, so much mindless violence is alcohol related, > that has innocent victims too. > > I'm sorry that dairy made you ill, I'm glad it didn't affect me at all that > way since I was already suffering from the smoke, but I guess we all have > our own unique set of sensitivities and allergies. I can eat anything which > most people class as food without any trouble, even as a meat-eater I never > had constipation or any food allergies. I just choose veganism on ethical > grounds. > > I think a food allergy would be easier to manage than a tobacco smoke > allergy because many people think I am faking it. That is hard to handle. > I've heard of someone else whose doctor said he was more likely allergic to > cats or mold, when he complained that tobacco smoke affected him badly, I > don't know why doctors should be so sceptical about this problem and try to > blame other things. > > I even got accused behind my back of being " unsociable " in one animal rights > group because I would not go in the smoky pub after protests with them, how > unfair is that? They knew I couldn't bear being around smoke, and were not > very understanding of my sensitivity. > It's very inconsistent that they were against making animals smoke in lab > experimenrts but wanted me to be forced to breathe in secondary smoke as a > prerequisite to being a fully accepted one of their crowd. I guess social > coercion to accept something damaging and unhealthy is OK with some AR > people, because it's not actual force. I don't see it as the right way to > treat one of your supposed friends. > > Lesley > > > B. B. [ibyza2001@h...] > 19 August 2002 18:35 > > I agree but > > > I agree fully that we can not go to a demo. and smoke, true! > > But many of us have been sick on dairy, egg and milk (I had no smokers > around luckily in that remote place I lived in in that times) > > This can be fully demonstrated too, so first danger tabacoo OK > > 2nd meet > > 3rd dairy & eggs > > But I guess it depends on individuals' reaction and on beeing coherent, > LET'S EVOLUTE & PUT A PECEFUL END TO SMOKE ADDICTION > > > > > " Lesley Dove " > > > >To: > >RE: Re: milk sucksssssssss > >Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:26:19 +0100 > > > > > >Is it worth AR people smoking though if the smokers on demos and marches > put > >people who are sensitive like me off going? It makes me so ill, that I am > >considering not going on a march again if I have to be surrounded by > >cigarette smoke, I felt very sick on the demo in London and after outside > >the pub, some of it might have been the car fumes in London but > experience > >has taught me that tobacco smoke affects me worse! I'm nmo use to anyone > >I believe demos and protests for the animals should be strictly > non-smoking > >affairs, it creates a very bad impression on the public to have people > >smoking. We have to present a nice clean living image. > > > >Dairy cows have no reason to feel let down by me, I am an ethical vegan > and > >will always promote veganism on animal rights grounds but I will not make > >what I believe to be false claims about giving up dairy leading to > improved > >health and less mucus for instance, because in my experience it made no > >difference to my health except mentally to my conscience and peace of > mind. > >My mucus and chest and head problems remained until I was able to live > away > >from second hand smoke. > > > >Lesley > > > > > > cathyjupp [cj@r...] > > 19 August 2002 13:29 > > > > Re: milk sucksssssssss > > > > > > > > > > BUT I will > > > speak out when I see the vegan movement undermining anti- tobacco > > campaigning > > > by overstating the role of dairy in cancers. > > > > That would be overstating IN YOUR OPINION, would it? I'm sure that > > dairy cows everywhere would like to thank you. > > > > Their veganism will not protect them > > > from the harm they are doing to themselves. > > > > > > > The only vegans I know personally aren't vegan for their health, but > > for the animals' (I know a lot of Americals are, and some British of > > course - I just haven't met any personally). I don't think that > > anyone would reasonably argue that smoking was not bad for them - but > > some people think it worth it. Veganism has little or nothing to do > > with it. > > > > Is this going to turn into another anti-smoking forum? Shall I leave > > now? > > > > Cathy > > > > ps Hallo everyone who knows me from before. Been lurking for a > > while to see how everyone is and what's going on here - never > > intended to post because I spend far too much time at the lists when > > I get going, but you know how it is sometimes........ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ibizkus [ibyza2001@h...] > > > 19 August 2002 11:43 > > > > > > milk sucksssssssss > > > > > > > > > > > > Got... Breast Cancer? Prostate Cancer? Crohn's Disease? Heart > > > Disease Sick Kids? Osteoporosis Fat? Veal? Fat? Zits? Gas? Mucus? > > > Beer? > > > > > > > > > Click here for the truth about dairy products and strong bones. > > > > > > MILK SUCKS... > > > FOR THE ANIMALS: > > > Corporate-owned factories where cows are warehoused in huge sheds > > and > > > treated like milk machines have replaced most small family farms. > > > With genetic manipulation and intensive production technologies, > > it > > > is common for modern dairy cows to produce 100 pounds of milk a > > day— > > > 10 times more than they would produce in nature. To keep milk > > > production as high as possible, farmers artificially inseminate > > cows > > > every year. Growth hormones and unnatural milking schedules cause > > > dairy cows' udders to become painful and so heavy that they > > sometimes > > > drag on the ground, resulting in frequent infections and overuse > > of > > > antibiotics. Cows -- like all mammals -- make milk to feed their > > own > > > babies -- not humans. > > > > > > > > > Male calves, the " byproducts " of the dairy industry, endure 14 > > to17 > > > weeks of torment in veal crates so small that they can't even turn > > > around. Female calves often replace their old, worn-out mothers, > > or > > > are slaughtered soon after birth for the rennet in their stomachs > > (an > > > ingredient of most commercial cheeses). They are often kept in > > tiny > > > crates or tethered in stalls for the first few months of their > > lives, > > > only to grow up to become " milk machines " like their mothers. > > > > > > > > > FOR THE ENVIRONMENT: > > > Cow's milk is an inefficient food source. Cows, like humans, > > expend > > > the majority of their food intake simply leading their lives. It > > > takes a great deal of grain and other foodstuffs cycled through > > cows > > > to produce a small amount of milk. And not only is milk a waste of > > > energy and water, the production of milk is also a disastrous > > source > > > of water pollution. A dairy cow produces 120 pounds of waste every > > > day -- equal to that of two dozen people, but with no toilets, > > > sewers, or treatment plants. > > > > > > In Lancaster County, Pa., manure from dairy cows is destroying the > > > Chesapeake Bay, and in California, which produces one-fifth of the > > > country's total supply of milk, the manure from dairy farms has > > > poisoned vast expanses of underground water, rivers, and streams. > > In > > > the Central Valley of California, the cows produce as much > > excrement > > > as a city of 21 million people, and even a smallish farm of 200 > > cows > > > will produce as much nitrogen as in the sewage from a community of > > > 5,000 to 10,000 people, according to a U.S. Senate report on > > animal > > > waste. > > > > > > > > > > > > FOR YOUR HEALTH: > > > Dairy products are a health hazard. They contain no fiber or > > complex > > > carbohydrates and are laden with saturated fat and cholesterol. > > They > > > are contaminated with cow's blood and pus and are frequently > > > contaminated with pesticides, hormones, and antibiotics. Dairy > > > products are linked to allergies, constipation, obesity, heart > > > disease, cancer, and other diseases. > > > > > > The late Dr. Benjamin Spock, America's leading authority on child > > > care, spoke out against feeding cow's milk to children, saying it > > can > > > cause anemia, allergies, and insulin-dependent diabetes and in the > > > long term, will set kids up for obesity and heart disease, > > America's > > > number one cause of death. > > > > > > And dairy products may actually cause osteoporosis, not prevent > > it, > > > since their high-protein content leaches calcium from the body. > > > Population studies, backed up by a groundbreaking Harvard study of > > > more than 75,000 nurses, suggest that drinking milk can actually > > > cause osteoporosis. Find out more by visiting our links page. > > > > > > > > > > > > WHAT YOU CAN DO: > > > According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the average > > American > > > consumes more than 550 pounds of dairy products annually, which > > is 40 > > > percent of the bulk of the food we eat. Click here to see an > > > illustration of the " Food Pyramid " which is representative of > > actual > > > American eating habits. > > > > > > Give the bottle the boot! Instead, try delicious soy or rice milk, > > > soy cheese, Tofutti ice cream, and tofu sour cream and cream > > cheese. > > > All are widely available at health food stores and many > > supermarkets. > > > Click here for information on adopting a dairy-free diet. > > > > > > > > > > > > In The News > > > > > > Anit-milk ad 'a cheap point at the expense of Catholics' (The > > > Vancouver Sun) > > > > > > Factory Dairies Invade Wisconsin (Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel) > > > > > > White Poison: The Horrors of Milk(Times of India) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " There's no reason to drink cow's milk at any time in your life. > > It > > > was designed for calves, not humans, and we should all stop > > drinking > > > it today. " > > > -Dr. Frank A. Oski > > > Former Director of Pediatrics, Johns Hopkins University > > > > > > > > > > > > People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals > > > 501 Front St., Norfolk, VA 23510; 757-622-PETA > > > MilkSucks.comLiving Dairy-FreeFind Out MoreFree Vegetarian > > Starter > > > PackVegNow.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 Sincere apologies for not snipping that last message - it was humungous and I simply forgot. Sorry. Cathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 I've never punched a smoker for smoking, but I was punched for simply complaining about it, how can I be the one who is way over the top? It was hardly reasonable that I was punched, I don't think they needed much provocation, in fact the woman who punched me was not the one I had argued with, it was a man who got her to hit me, he was the one I complained to for smoking. They are the people who need some anger management not me Cathy, can you not see that? What they did was over the top. It won't happen again if I learn some self-defence because I will be able to fight back before the first punch hits me, asthma attakcs permitting of course. Lesley cathyjupp [cj]20 August 2002 11:23 Subject: Re: I agree butLesley - I'm serious here - go to your doctor and ask for counselling or some other form of anger management assistance. You are in serious danger of harming yourself (or someone else). You have already been punched in the face once and I can see it happening again, or worse, if you don't do something to manage your attitude. It is well over the top. You see yourself as taking reasonable steps to protect yourself, but I think your attitude has gone *way* past that. Cathy, "Lesley Dove" <Lesley@v...> wrote:> > I'm getting almost past the stage of being peaceful with smokers, I'm even> considering getting a pepper/tear gas spray and to hell with the fact that> it is illegal in the UK (we have very little right to protect ourselves> effectively from violent antisocial freaks in this country), to spray on> smokers when they make me ill and are refusing to stub it out. If they are> unreasonable, it's just a matter of self-defence, not attack as I see it> since they are hurting me. They need to know the pain they are causing and> maybe mace would just give them some idea of how second hand smoke> inhalation feels to a sensitive person.> > I am considering a violent solution to the assault on my lungs in future> because I was punched in the face for complaining about a smoker the other> day so no more Mrs Peaceful Dove after the way I have suffered. I wouldn't> carry a gun or a knife though, that would be taking it too far! I had a bad> headache and blurred vision from being punched and had a bruised eyebrow and> forehead. I was feeling so ill for days because the smoke had already caused> me breathing trouble when I complained so I was wheezy for ages. My attacker> has not been caught, the police are pretty hopeless. I will of course press> charges if she is caught. Considering the circumstances that I was sitting> down struggling to breathe when I was punched it was a particularly cowardly> and callous attack. It was obvious to this woman that I was not in a> position to fight back. I ended up behaving badly on the other vegan> group just very soon after the attack and I think I was in a slightly> confused state at the time, so that the balance of my mind was disturbed,> but I still got banned from the group.> > Tobacco is not really an addiction, I don't believe in it as an addiction> anyway. I think smokers just say that as an excuse, but it's all in their> minds and it's just a habit that people choose to do because some people> like to annoy other people, that is why youngsters start usually, to rebel> and annoy someone, that is the true nature of the smoker. My dad and my gran> had no problem quitting when I was young, and there were no nicotine chewing> gums or patches then (people are spoilt these days!), they just quit on> their own because they realised it was a deadly habit. I was proud of them> both. Nowadays smokers whinge about how hard it is to quit, I'm sick of> that, they don't know how lucky they are to get so much help on the health> service, and to get their self-inflicted illnesses treated. I also don't> think people like George Best and Larry Hagman (alcohol abusers) deserve new> livers, if they don't care about their own that they are born with, and> drink as much as thery did they should be low priority for transplants, I> think, after children and people who could not have prevented their illness.> The innocent victims should be helped more, the woman who hit me had most> likely been drinking anyway, so much mindless violence is alcohol related,> that has innocent victims too.> > I'm sorry that dairy made you ill, I'm glad it didn't affect me at all that> way since I was already suffering from the smoke, but I guess we all have> our own unique set of sensitivities and allergies. I can eat anything which> most people class as food without any trouble, even as a meat-eater I never> had constipation or any food allergies. I just choose veganism on ethical> grounds.> > I think a food allergy would be easier to manage than a tobacco smoke> allergy because many people think I am faking it. That is hard to handle.> I've heard of someone else whose doctor said he was more likely allergic to> cats or mold, when he complained that tobacco smoke affected him badly, I> don't know why doctors should be so sceptical about this problem and try to> blame other things.> > I even got accused behind my back of being "unsociable" in one animal rights> group because I would not go in the smoky pub after protests with them, how> unfair is that? They knew I couldn't bear being around smoke, and were not> very understanding of my sensitivity.> It's very inconsistent that they were against making animals smoke in lab> experimenrts but wanted me to be forced to breathe in secondary smoke as a> prerequisite to being a fully accepted one of their crowd. I guess social> coercion to accept something damaging and unhealthy is OK with some AR> people, because it's not actual force. I don't see it as the right way to> treat one of your supposed friends.> > Lesley> > > B. B. [ibyza2001@h...]> 19 August 2002 18:35> > I agree but> > > I agree fully that we can not go to a demo. and smoke, true!> > But many of us have been sick on dairy, egg and milk (I had no smokers> around luckily in that remote place I lived in in that times)> > This can be fully demonstrated too, so first danger tabacoo OK> > 2nd meet> > 3rd dairy & eggs> > But I guess it depends on individuals' reaction and on beeing coherent,> LET'S EVOLUTE & PUT A PECEFUL END TO SMOKE ADDICTION> > > > >"Lesley Dove"> >> >To:> >RE: Re: milk sucksssssssss> >Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:26:19 +0100> >> >> >Is it worth AR people smoking though if the smokers on demos and marches> put> >people who are sensitive like me off going? It makes me so ill, that I am> >considering not going on a march again if I have to be surrounded by> >cigarette smoke, I felt very sick on the demo in London and after outside> >the pub, some of it might have been the car fumes in London but> experience> >has taught me that tobacco smoke affects me worse! I'm nmo use to anyone> >I believe demos and protests for the animals should be strictly> non-smoking> >affairs, it creates a very bad impression on the public to have people> >smoking. We have to present a nice clean living image.> >> >Dairy cows have no reason to feel let down by me, I am an ethical vegan> and> >will always promote veganism on animal rights grounds but I will not make> >what I believe to be false claims about giving up dairy leading to> improved> >health and less mucus for instance, because in my experience it made no> >difference to my health except mentally to my conscience and peace of> mind.> >My mucus and chest and head problems remained until I was able to live> away> >from second hand smoke.> >> >Lesley> >> > > > cathyjupp [cj@r...]> > 19 August 2002 13:29> > > > Re: milk sucksssssssss> >> >> >> >> > BUT I will> > > speak out when I see the vegan movement undermining anti-tobacco> > campaigning> > > by overstating the role of dairy in cancers.> >> > That would be overstating IN YOUR OPINION, would it? I'm sure that> > dairy cows everywhere would like to thank you.> >> > Their veganism will not protect them> > > from the harm they are doing to themselves.> > >> >> > The only vegans I know personally aren't vegan for their health, but> > for the animals' (I know a lot of Americals are, and some British of> > course - I just haven't met any personally). I don't think that> > anyone would reasonably argue that smoking was not bad for them - but> > some people think it worth it. Veganism has little or nothing to do> > with it.> >> > Is this going to turn into another anti-smoking forum? Shall I leave> > now?> >> > Cathy> >> > ps Hallo everyone who knows me from before. Been lurking for a> > while to see how everyone is and what's going on here - never> > intended to post because I spend far too much time at the lists when> > I get going, but you know how it is sometimes........> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > > > > ibizkus [ibyza2001@h...]> > > 19 August 2002 11:43> > > > > > milk sucksssssssss> > >> > >> > >> > > Got... Breast Cancer? Prostate Cancer? Crohn's Disease? Heart> > > Disease Sick Kids? Osteoporosis Fat? Veal? Fat? Zits? Gas? Mucus?> > > Beer?> > >> > >> > > Click here for the truth about dairy products and strong bones.> > >> > > MILK SUCKS...> > > FOR THE ANIMALS:> > > Corporate-owned factories where cows are warehoused in huge sheds> > and> > > treated like milk machines have replaced most small family farms.> > > With genetic manipulation and intensive production technologies,> > it> > > is common for modern dairy cows to produce 100 pounds of milk a> > day—> > > 10 times more than they would produce in nature. To keep milk> > > production as high as possible, farmers artificially inseminate> > cows> > > every year. Growth hormones and unnatural milking schedules cause> > > dairy cows' udders to become painful and so heavy that they> > sometimes> > > drag on the ground, resulting in frequent infections and overuse> > of> > > antibiotics. Cows -- like all mammals -- make milk to feed their> > own> > > babies -- not humans.> > >> > >> > > Male calves, the "byproducts" of the dairy industry, endure 14> > to17> > > weeks of torment in veal crates so small that they can't even turn> > > around. Female calves often replace their old, worn-out mothers,> > or> > > are slaughtered soon after birth for the rennet in their stomachs> > (an> > > ingredient of most commercial cheeses). They are often kept in> > tiny> > > crates or tethered in stalls for the first few months of their> > lives,> > > only to grow up to become "milk machines" like their mothers.> > >> > >> > > FOR THE ENVIRONMENT:> > > Cow's milk is an inefficient food source. Cows, like humans,> > expend> > > the majority of their food intake simply leading their lives. It> > > takes a great deal of grain and other foodstuffs cycled through> > cows> > > to produce a small amount of milk. And not only is milk a waste of> > > energy and water, the production of milk is also a disastrous> > source> > > of water pollution. A dairy cow produces 120 pounds of waste every> > > day -- equal to that of two dozen people, but with no toilets,> > > sewers, or treatment plants.> > >> > > In Lancaster County, Pa., manure from dairy cows is destroying the> > > Chesapeake Bay, and in California, which produces one-fifth of the> > > country's total supply of milk, the manure from dairy farms has> > > poisoned vast expanses of underground water, rivers, and streams.> > In> > > the Central Valley of California, the cows produce as much> > excrement> > > as a city of 21 million people, and even a smallish farm of 200> > cows> > > will produce as much nitrogen as in the sewage from a community of> > > 5,000 to 10,000 people, according to a U.S. Senate report on> > animal> > > waste.> > >> > >> > >> > > FOR YOUR HEALTH:> > > Dairy products are a health hazard. They contain no fiber or> > complex> > > carbohydrates and are laden with saturated fat and cholesterol.> > They> > > are contaminated with cow's blood and pus and are frequently> > > contaminated with pesticides, hormones, and antibiotics. Dairy> > > products are linked to allergies, constipation, obesity, heart> > > disease, cancer, and other diseases.> > >> > > The late Dr. Benjamin Spock, America's leading authority on child> > > care, spoke out against feeding cow's milk to children, saying it> > can> > > cause anemia, allergies, and insulin-dependent diabetes and in the> > > long term, will set kids up for obesity and heart disease,> > America's> > > number one cause of death.> > >> > > And dairy products may actually cause osteoporosis, not prevent> > it,> > > since their high-protein content leaches calcium from the body.> > > Population studies, backed up by a groundbreaking Harvard study of> > > more than 75,000 nurses, suggest that drinking milk can actually> > > cause osteoporosis. Find out more by visiting our links page.> > >> > >> > >> > > WHAT YOU CAN DO:> > > According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the average> > American> > > consumes more than 550 pounds of dairy products annually, which> > is 40> > > percent of the bulk of the food we eat. Click here to see an> > > illustration of the "Food Pyramid" which is representative of> > actual> > > American eating habits.> > >> > > Give the bottle the boot! Instead, try delicious soy or rice milk,> > > soy cheese, Tofutti ice cream, and tofu sour cream and cream> > cheese.> > > All are widely available at health food stores and many> > supermarkets.> > > Click here for information on adopting a dairy-free diet.> > >> > >> > >> > > In The News> > >> > > Anit-milk ad 'a cheap point at the expense of Catholics' (The> > > Vancouver Sun)> > >> > > Factory Dairies Invade Wisconsin (Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel)> > >> > > White Poison: The Horrors of Milk(Times of India)> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > "There's no reason to drink cow's milk at any time in your life.> > It> > > was designed for calves, not humans, and we should all stop> > drinking> > > it today."> > > -Dr. Frank A. Oski> > > Former Director of Pediatrics, Johns Hopkins University> > >> > >> > >> > > People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals> > > 501 Front St., Norfolk, VA 23510; 757-622-PETA> > > MilkSucks.comLiving Dairy-FreeFind Out MoreFree Vegetarian> > Starter> > > PackVegNow.com> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 I (almost) give in. It is completely reasonable to mace someone (illegal) for doing something you don't like (smoking - legal). Maybe you'll understand this: I *HATE* that people abuse animals/eat meat. It makes me very, very angry. It destroys my quality of life (I don't exaggerate). I could not bear on Saturday (live exports demo) to watch the video they were showing of calves struggling in pain and terror. I am filling up with tears even as I write this. Meat (read meat and dairy here) eating is self-destructive, planet-destructive, other-humans- destructive, in fact downright bloody selfish. But it is legal. Do you consider that I would be justified in macing someone who refused to stop eating a burger in front of me? Bear in mind here that we're not just talking about an allergic reaction, which can be avoided by absenting oneself, we're talking about a living creature that was forced to endure who-knows-what suffering and abuse before being ground into burgermeat, a creature that could not move away. Am I justified? If not, how can you think that you would be justified in macing an individual who refused your probably less than polite demand that they desist? Cathy ps I know that legal does not necessary mean justifiable, but for the moment that's the way it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 I'd totally support you using violence if necessary to actually save an animal, however when the burger is being eaten it is too late to save that animal, so I tend to just just avoid being around people eating animals as it upsets me too. I used to watch those terrible videos but I don't any more, they are very distressing I agree, but like you I'm converted so don't need to see them, it's the unconverted who need to know what goes on. By the way I have completely had it with the local chinese takeaway where I was punched and I am NOT getting anything from them again, because the other day we had a delivery (the idea was that I didn't have to go there myself) and they put part of someone else's delivery by mistake in our bag and I opened up something with bits of dead animal in it. I took it back and said I was very offended as a strict vegetarian. That is the last time I get anything from them. I was upset, and told them so only to be confronted by one of their customers who butted in where it was none of his business and commented how touchy I was about my vegetarianism. I should not have to put up with that, and told him I was against animals being murdered for us to eat, so he said that god allows it, and I retorted that I was an atheist and followed my own conscience. I was really furious and not in the mood for being questioned by some nosey person as to my right to make the decision not to have bits of dead animal delivered to me. Meat-eating per se however need not be as offensive as smoking, because it should be possible to get meat to eat from old animals that have died naturally in their sleep and lived a good life and not been murdered and tortured, or meat from dead humans, if people wanted to eat that I would have no problem with it. In practice meat is offensive because we don't have any cruelty-free meat available for meat-eaters, but it's an interesting hypothetical how it could be done without taking away any creature's right to a natural life and natural length of life. Smoking on the other hand directly harms me and my kids so because of the very direct threat on my life I feel it poses I am getting to the point that I have little choice but to make myself prepared to fight it with direct action if it is called for, and because the effect on me is so severe that I would consider mace to be an appropriate defence. That may be selfish but if I am sick I am no use to anyone. If second hand smoke causes me to die before I am in a position to be a good activist again, I won't ever be any use to the animals again. I want to concentrate more on being of use to the movement once my kids are older. How can I avoid smoke when the person smoking who I am complaining of is blocking the door and physically intimidating me and deliberately smoking into the room, and I still need to be there because I am waiting for my takeaway? You really have no idea how nasty some smokers can be, because you are sensitive to suffering and such nastiness was obviously never in your nature, even when you smoked. Lesley cathyjupp [cj]20 August 2002 12:36 Subject: Re: I agree butI (almost) give in. It is completely reasonable to mace someone (illegal) for doing something you don't like (smoking - legal).Maybe you'll understand this:I *HATE* that people abuse animals/eat meat. It makes me very, very angry. It destroys my quality of life (I don't exaggerate). I could not bear on Saturday (live exports demo) to watch the video they were showing of calves struggling in pain and terror. I am filling up with tears even as I write this. Meat (read meat and dairy here)eating is self-destructive, planet-destructive, other-humans-destructive, in fact downright bloody selfish. But it is legal. Do you consider that I would be justified in macing someone who refused to stop eating a burger in front of me? Bear in mind here that we're not just talking about an allergic reaction, which can be avoided by absenting oneself, we're talking about a living creature that was forced to endure who-knows-what suffering and abuse before being ground into burgermeat, a creature that could not move away. Am I justified? If not, how can you think that you would be justified in macing an individual who refused your probably less than polite demand that they desist?Cathyps I know that legal does not necessary mean justifiable, but for the moment that's the way it is.To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 As a non violent a vegan should be, Leslie; violence is never the issue, violence is never the answer NO MATTER WHO STARTED WHAT, THAT IS THE TRUE VEGAN ESSENCE, peace >"Lesley Dove" > > >RE: Re: I agree but >Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:22:42 +0100 > > >I've never punched a smoker for smoking, but I was punched for simply >complaining about it, how can I be the one who is way over the top? >It was hardly reasonable that I was punched, I don't think they needed much >provocation, in fact the woman who punched me was not the one I had argued >with, it was a man who got her to hit me, he was the one I complained to for >smoking. They are the people who need some anger management not me Cathy, >can you not see that? What they did was over the top. >It won't happen again if I learn some self-defence because I will be able to >fight back before the first punch hits me, asthma attakcs permitting of >course. > >Lesley > > > cathyjupp [cj] > 20 August 2002 11:23 > > Re: I agree but > > > Lesley - I'm serious here - go to your doctor and ask for counselling > or some other form of anger management assistance. You are in > serious danger of harming yourself (or someone else). You have > already been punched in the face once and I can see it happening > again, or worse, if you don't do something to manage your attitude. > It is well over the top. You see yourself as taking reasonable steps > to protect yourself, but I think your attitude has gone *way* past > that. > > Cathy > > > > > , "Lesley Dove" wrote: > > > > I'm getting almost past the stage of being peaceful with smokers, > I'm even > > considering getting a pepper/tear gas spray and to hell with the > fact that > > it is illegal in the UK (we have very little right to protect > ourselves > > effectively from violent antisocial freaks in this country), to > spray on > > smokers when they make me ill and are refusing to stub it out. If > they are > > unreasonable, it's just a matter of self-defence, not attack as I > see it > > since they are hurting me. They need to know the pain they are > causing and > > maybe mace would just give them some idea of how second hand smoke > > inhalation feels to a sensitive person. > > > > I am considering a violent solution to the assault on my lungs in > future > > because I was punched in the face for complaining about a smoker > the other > > day so no more Mrs Peaceful Dove after the way I have suffered. I > wouldn't > > carry a gun or a knife though, that would be taking it too far! I > had a bad > > headache and blurred vision from being punched and had a bruised > eyebrow and > > forehead. I was feeling so ill for days because the smoke had > already caused > > me breathing trouble when I complained so I was wheezy for ages. My > attacker > > has not been caught, the police are pretty hopeless. I will of > course press > > charges if she is caught. Considering the circumstances that I was > sitting > > down struggling to breathe when I was punched it was a particularly > cowardly > > and callous attack. It was obvious to this woman that I was not in a > > position to fight back. I ended up behaving badly on the other > vegan > > group just very soon after the attack and I think I was in a > slightly > > confused state at the time, so that the balance of my mind was > disturbed, > > but I still got banned from the group. > > > > Tobacco is not really an addiction, I don't believe in it as an > addiction > > anyway. I think smokers just say that as an excuse, but it's all in > their > > minds and it's just a habit that people choose to do because some > people > > like to annoy other people, that is why youngsters start usually, > to rebel > > and annoy someone, that is the true nature of the smoker. My dad > and my gran > > had no problem quitting when I was young, and there were no > nicotine chewing > > gums or patches then (people are spoilt these days!), they just > quit on > > their own because they realised it was a deadly habit. I was proud > of them > > both. Nowadays smokers whinge about how hard it is to quit, I'm > sick of > > that, they don't know how lucky they are to get so much help on the > health > > service, and to get their self-inflicted illnesses treated. I also > don't > > think people like George Best and Larry Hagman (alcohol abusers) > deserve new > > livers, if they don't care about their own that they are born with, > and > > drink as much as thery did they should be low priority for > transplants, I > > think, after children and people who could not have prevented their > illness. > > The innocent victims should be helped more, the woman who hit me > had most > > likely been drinking anyway, so much mindless violence is alcohol > related, > > that has innocent victims too. > > > > I'm sorry that dairy made you ill, I'm glad it didn't affect me at > all that > > way since I was already suffering from the smoke, but I guess we > all have > > our own unique set of sensitivities and allergies. I can eat > anything which > > most people class as food without any trouble, even as a meat-eater > I never > > had constipation or any food allergies. I just choose veganism on > ethical > > grounds. > > > > I think a food allergy would be easier to manage than a tobacco > smoke > > allergy because many people think I am faking it. That is hard to > handle. > > I've heard of someone else whose doctor said he was more likely > allergic to > > cats or mold, when he complained that tobacco smoke affected him > badly, I > > don't know why doctors should be so sceptical about this problem > and try to > > blame other things. > > > > I even got accused behind my back of being "unsociable" in one > animal rights > > group because I would not go in the smoky pub after protests with > them, how > > unfair is that? They knew I couldn't bear being around smoke, and > were not > > very understanding of my sensitivity. > > It's very inconsistent that they were against making animals smoke > in lab > > experimenrts but wanted me to be forced to breathe in secondary > smoke as a > > prerequisite to being a fully accepted one of their crowd. I guess > social > > coercion to accept something damaging and unhealthy is OK with some > AR > > people, because it's not actual force. I don't see it as the right > way to > > treat one of your supposed friends. > > > > Lesley > > > > > > B. B. [ibyza2001@h...] > > 19 August 2002 18:35 > > > > I agree but > > > > > > I agree fully that we can not go to a demo. and smoke, true! > > > > But many of us have been sick on dairy, egg and milk (I had no > smokers > > around luckily in that remote place I lived in in that times) > > > > This can be fully demonstrated too, so first danger tabacoo OK > > > > 2nd meet > > > > 3rd dairy & eggs > > > > But I guess it depends on individuals' reaction and on beeing > coherent, > > LET'S EVOLUTE & PUT A PECEFUL END TO SMOKE ADDICTION > > > > > > > > >"Lesley Dove" > > > > > >> > >RE: Re: milk sucksssssssss > > >Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:26:19 +0100 > > > > > > > > >Is it worth AR people smoking though if the smokers on demos and > marches > > put > > >people who are sensitive like me off going? It makes me so ill, > that I am > > >considering not going on a march again if I have to be > surrounded by > > >cigarette smoke, I felt very sick on the demo in London and > after outside > > >the pub, some of it might have been the car fumes in London but > > experience > > >has taught me that tobacco smoke affects me worse! I'm nmo use > to anyone > > >I believe demos and protests for the animals should be strictly > > non-smoking > > >affairs, it creates a very bad impression on the public to have > people > > >smoking. We have to present a nice clean living image. > > > > > >Dairy cows have no reason to feel let down by me, I am an > ethical vegan > > and > > >will always promote veganism on animal rights grounds but I will > not make > > >what I believe to be false claims about giving up dairy leading > to > > improved > > >health and less mucus for instance, because in my experience it > made no > > >difference to my health except mentally to my conscience and > peace of > > mind. > > >My mucus and chest and head problems remained until I was able > to live > > away > > >from second hand smoke. > > > > > >Lesley > > > > > > > > > cathyjupp [cj@r...] > > > 19 August 2002 13:29 > > > > > > Re: milk sucksssssssss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BUT I will > > > > speak out when I see the vegan movement undermining anti- > tobacco > > > campaigning > > > > by overstating the role of dairy in cancers. > > > > > > That would be overstating IN YOUR OPINION, would it? I'm sure > that > > > dairy cows everywhere would like to thank you. > > > > > > Their veganism will not protect them > > > > from the harm they are doing to themselves. > > > > > > > > > > The only vegans I know personally aren't vegan for their > health, but > > > for the animals' (I know a lot of Americals are, and some > British of > > > course - I just haven't met any personally). I don't think that > > > anyone would reasonably argue that smoking was not bad for > them - but > > > some people think it worth it. Veganism has little or nothing > to do > > > with it. > > > > > > Is this going to turn into another anti-smoking forum? Shall I > leave > > > now? > > > > > > Cathy > > > > > > ps Hallo everyone who knows me from before. Been lurking for a > > > while to see how everyone is and what's going on here - never > > > intended to post because I spend far too much time at the lists > when > > > I get going, but you know how it is sometimes........ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ibizkus [ibyza2001@h...] > > > > 19 August 2002 11:43 > > > > > > > > milk sucksssssssss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Got... Breast Cancer? Prostate Cancer? Crohn's Disease? Heart > > > > Disease Sick Kids? Osteoporosis Fat? Veal? Fat? Zits? Gas? > Mucus? > > > > Beer? > > > > > > > > > > > > Click here for the truth about dairy products and strong > bones. > > > > > > > > MILK SUCKS... > > > > FOR THE ANIMALS: > > > > Corporate-owned factories where cows are warehoused in huge > sheds > > > and > > > > treated like milk machines have replaced most small family > farms. > > > > With genetic manipulation and intensive production > technologies, > > > it > > > > is common for modern dairy cows to produce 100 pounds of milk > a > > > day— > > > > 10 times more than they would produce in nature. To keep milk > > > > production as high as possible, farmers artificially > inseminate > > > cows > > > > every year. Growth hormones and unnatural milking schedules > cause > > > > dairy cows' udders to become painful and so heavy that they > > > sometimes > > > > drag on the ground, resulting in frequent infections and > overuse > > > of > > > > antibiotics. Cows -- like all mammals -- make milk to feed > their > > > own > > > > babies -- not humans. > > > > > > > > > > > > Male calves, the "byproducts" of the dairy industry, endure 14 > > > to17 > > > > weeks of torment in veal crates so small that they can't even > turn > > > > around. Female calves often replace their old, worn-out > mothers, > > > or > > > > are slaughtered soon after birth for the rennet in their > stomachs > > > (an > > > > ingredient of most commercial cheeses). They are often kept in > > > tiny > > > > crates or tethered in stalls for the first few months of their > > > lives, > > > > only to grow up to become "milk machines" like their mothers. > > > > > > > > > > > > FOR THE ENVIRONMENT: > > > > Cow's milk is an inefficient food source. Cows, like humans, > > > expend > > > > the majority of their food intake simply leading their lives. > It > > > > takes a great deal of grain and other foodstuffs cycled > through > > > cows > > > > to produce a small amount of milk. And not only is milk a > waste of > > > > energy and water, the production of milk is also a disastrous > > > source > > > > of water pollution. A dairy cow produces 120 pounds of waste > every > > > > day -- equal to that of two dozen people, but with no toilets, > > > > sewers, or treatment plants. > > > > > > > > In Lancaster County, Pa., manure from dairy cows is > destroying the > > > > Chesapeake Bay, and in California, which produces one-fifth > of the > > > > country's total supply of milk, the manure from dairy farms > has > > > > poisoned vast expanses of underground water, rivers, and > streams. > > > In > > > > the Central Valley of California, the cows produce as much > > > excrement > > > > as a city of 21 million people, and even a smallish farm of > 200 > > > cows > > > > will produce as much nitrogen as in the sewage from a > community of > > > > 5,000 to 10,000 people, according to a U.S. Senate report on > > > animal > > > > waste. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > FOR YOUR HEALTH: > > > > Dairy products are a health hazard. They contain no fiber or > > > complex > > > > carbohydrates and are laden with saturated fat and > cholesterol. > > > They > > > > are contaminated with cow's blood and pus and are frequently > > > > contaminated with pesticides, hormones, and antibiotics. Dairy > > > > products are linked to allergies, constipation, obesity, heart > > > > disease, cancer, and other diseases. > > > > > > > > The late Dr. Benjamin Spock, America's leading authority on > child > > > > care, spoke out against feeding cow's milk to children, > saying it > > > can > > > > cause anemia, allergies, and insulin-dependent diabetes and > in the > > > > long term, will set kids up for obesity and heart disease, > > > America's > > > > number one cause of death. > > > > > > > > And dairy products may actually cause osteoporosis, not > prevent > > > it, > > > > since their high-protein content leaches calcium from the > body. > > > > Population studies, backed up by a groundbreaking Harvard > study of > > > > more than 75,000 nurses, suggest that drinking milk can > actually > > > > cause osteoporosis. Find out more by visiting our links page. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WHAT YOU CAN DO: > > > > According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the average > > > American > > > > consumes more than 550 pounds of dairy products annually, > which > > > is 40 > > > > percent of the bulk of the food we eat. Click here to see an > > > > illustration of the "Food Pyramid" which is representative of > > > actual > > > > American eating habits. > > > > > > > > Give the bottle the boot! Instead, try delicious soy or rice > milk, > > > > soy cheese, Tofutti ice cream, and tofu sour cream and cream > > > cheese. > > > > All are widely available at health food stores and many > > > supermarkets. > > > > Click here for information on adopting a dairy-free diet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In The News > > > > > > > > Anit-milk ad 'a cheap point at the expense of Catholics' (The > > > > Vancouver Sun) > > > > > > > > Factory Dairies Invade Wisconsin (Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel) > > > > > > > > White Poison: The Horrors of Milk(Times of India) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "There's no reason to drink cow's milk at any time in your > life. > > > It > > > > was designed for calves, not humans, and we should all stop > > > drinking > > > > it today." > > > > -Dr. Frank A. Oski > > > > Former Director of Pediatrics, Johns Hopkins University > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals > > > > 501 Front St., Norfolk, VA 23510; 757-622-PETA > > > > MilkSucks.comLiving Dairy-FreeFind Out MoreFree Vegetarian > > > Starter > > > > PackVegNow.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 Yeah right next time I'll just let someone kill me... Lesley NOT Leslie (you're not MrBig or Edith under an alias are you?) B. B. [ibyza2001]20 August 2002 13:32 Subject: RE: Re: I agree but As a non violent a vegan should be, Leslie; violence is never the issue, violence is never the answer NO MATTER WHO STARTED WHAT, THAT IS THE TRUE VEGAN ESSENCE, peace >"Lesley Dove" > > >RE: Re: I agree but >Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:22:42 +0100 > > >I've never punched a smoker for smoking, but I was punched for simply >complaining about it, how can I be the one who is way over the top? >It was hardly reasonable that I was punched, I don't think they needed much >provocation, in fact the woman who punched me was not the one I had argued >with, it was a man who got her to hit me, he was the one I complained to for >smoking. They are the people who need some anger management not me Cathy, >can you not see that? What they did was over the top. >It won't happen again if I learn some self-defence because I will be able to >fight back before the first punch hits me, asthma attakcs permitting of >course. > >Lesley > > > cathyjupp [cj] > 20 August 2002 11:23 > > Re: I agree but > > > Lesley - I'm serious here - go to your doctor and ask for counselling > or some other form of anger management assistance. You are in > serious danger of harming yourself (or someone else). You have > already been punched in the face once and I can see it happening > again, or worse, if you don't do something to manage your attitude. > It is well over the top. You see yourself as taking reasonable steps > to protect yourself, but I think your attitude has gone *way* past > that. > > Cathy > > > > > , "Lesley Dove" wrote: > > > > I'm getting almost past the stage of being peaceful with smokers, > I'm even > > considering getting a pepper/tear gas spray and to hell with the > fact that > > it is illegal in the UK (we have very little right to protect > ourselves > > effectively from violent antisocial freaks in this country), to > spray on > > smokers when they make me ill and are refusing to stub it out. If > they are > > unreasonable, it's just a matter of self-defence, not attack as I > see it > > since they are hurting me. They need to know the pain they are > causing and > > maybe mace would just give them some idea of how second hand smoke > > inhalation feels to a sensitive person. > > > > I am considering a violent solution to the assault on my lungs in > future > > because I was punched in the face for complaining about a smoker > the other > > day so no more Mrs Peaceful Dove after the way I have suffered. I > wouldn't > > carry a gun or a knife though, that would be taking it too far! I > had a bad > > headache and blurred vision from being punched and had a bruised > eyebrow and > > forehead. I was feeling so ill for days because the smoke had > already caused > > me breathing trouble when I complained so I was wheezy for ages. My > attacker > > has not been caught, the police are pretty hopeless. I will of > course press > > charges if she is caught. Considering the circumstances that I was > sitting > > down struggling to breathe when I was punched it was a particularly > cowardly > > and callous attack. It was obvious to this woman that I was not in a > > position to fight back. I ended up behaving badly on the other > vegan > > group just very soon after the attack and I think I was in a > slightly > > confused state at the time, so that the balance of my mind was > disturbed, > > but I still got banned from the group. > > > > Tobacco is not really an addiction, I don't believe in it as an > addiction > > anyway. I think smokers just say that as an excuse, but it's all in > their > > minds and it's just a habit that people choose to do because some > people > > like to annoy other people, that is why youngsters start usually, > to rebel > > and annoy someone, that is the true nature of the smoker. My dad > and my gran > > had no problem quitting when I was young, and there were no > nicotine chewing > > gums or patches then (people are spoilt these days!), they just > quit on > > their own because they realised it was a deadly habit. I was proud > of them > > both. Nowadays smokers whinge about how hard it is to quit, I'm > sick of > > that, they don't know how lucky they are to get so much help on the > health > > service, and to get their self-inflicted illnesses treated. I also > don't > > think people like George Best and Larry Hagman (alcohol abusers) > deserve new > > livers, if they don't care about their own that they are born with, > and > > drink as much as thery did they should be low priority for > transplants, I > > think, after children and people who could not have prevented their > illness. > > The innocent victims should be helped more, the woman who hit me > had most > > likely been drinking anyway, so much mindless violence is alcohol > related, > > that has innocent victims too. > > > > I'm sorry that dairy made you ill, I'm glad it didn't affect me at > all that > > way since I was already suffering from the smoke, but I guess we > all have > > our own unique set of sensitivities and allergies. I can eat > anything which > > most people class as food without any trouble, even as a meat-eater > I never > > had constipation or any food allergies. I just choose veganism on > ethical > > grounds. > > > > I think a food allergy would be easier to manage than a tobacco > smoke > > allergy because many people think I am faking it. That is hard to > handle. > > I've heard of someone else whose doctor said he was more likely > allergic to > > cats or mold, when he complained that tobacco smoke affected him > badly, I > > don't know why doctors should be so sceptical about this problem > and try to > > blame other things. > > > > I even got accused behind my back of being "unsociable" in one > animal rights > > group because I would not go in the smoky pub after protests with > them, how > > unfair is that? They knew I couldn't bear being around smoke, and > were not > > very understanding of my sensitivity. > > It's very inconsistent that they were against making animals smoke > in lab > > experimenrts but wanted me to be forced to breathe in secondary > smoke as a > > prerequisite to being a fully accepted one of their crowd. I guess > social > > coercion to accept something damaging and unhealthy is OK with some > AR > > people, because it's not actual force. I don't see it as the right > way to > > treat one of your supposed friends. > > > > Lesley > > > > > > B. B. [ibyza2001@h...] > > 19 August 2002 18:35 > > > > I agree but > > > > > > I agree fully that we can not go to a demo. and smoke, true! > > > > But many of us have been sick on dairy, egg and milk (I had no > smokers > > around luckily in that remote place I lived in in that times) > > > > This can be fully demonstrated too, so first danger tabacoo OK > > > > 2nd meet > > > > 3rd dairy & eggs > > > > But I guess it depends on individuals' reaction and on beeing > coherent, > > LET'S EVOLUTE & PUT A PECEFUL END TO SMOKE ADDICTION > > > > > > > > >"Lesley Dove" > > > > > >> > >RE: Re: milk sucksssssssss > > >Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:26:19 +0100 > > > > > > > > >Is it worth AR people smoking though if the smokers on demos and > marches > > put > > >people who are sensitive like me off going? It makes me so ill, > that I am > > >considering not going on a march again if I have to be > surrounded by > > >cigarette smoke, I felt very sick on the demo in London and > after outside > > >the pub, some of it might have been the car fumes in London but > > experience > > >has taught me that tobacco smoke affects me worse! I'm nmo use > to anyone > > >I believe demos and protests for the animals should be strictly > > non-smoking > > >affairs, it creates a very bad impression on the public to have > people > > >smoking. We have to present a nice clean living image. > > > > > >Dairy cows have no reason to feel let down by me, I am an > ethical vegan > > and > > >will always promote veganism on animal rights grounds but I will > not make > > >what I believe to be false claims about giving up dairy leading > to > > improved > > >health and less mucus for instance, because in my experience it > made no > > >difference to my health except mentally to my conscience and > peace of > > mind. > > >My mucus and chest and head problems remained until I was able > to live > > away > > >from second hand smoke. > > > > > >Lesley > > > > > > > > > cathyjupp [cj@r...] > > > 19 August 2002 13:29 > > > > > > Re: milk sucksssssssss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BUT I will > > > > speak out when I see the vegan movement undermining anti- > tobacco > > > campaigning > > > > by overstating the role of dairy in cancers. > > > > > > That would be overstating IN YOUR OPINION, would it? I'm sure > that > > > dairy cows everywhere would like to thank you. > > > > > > Their veganism will not protect them > > > > from the harm they are doing to themselves. > > > > > > > > > > The only vegans I know personally aren't vegan for their > health, but > > > for the animals' (I know a lot of Americals are, and some > British of > > > course - I just haven't met any personally). I don't think that > > > anyone would reasonably argue that smoking was not bad for > them - but > > > some people think it worth it. Veganism has little or nothing > to do > > > with it. > > > > > > Is this going to turn into another anti-smoking forum? Shall I > leave > > > now? > > > > > > Cathy > > > > > > ps Hallo everyone who knows me from before. Been lurking for a > > > while to see how everyone is and what's going on here - never > > > intended to post because I spend far too much time at the lists > when > > > I get going, but you know how it is sometimes........ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ibizkus [ibyza2001@h...] > > > > 19 August 2002 11:43 > > > > > > > > milk sucksssssssss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Got... Breast Cancer? Prostate Cancer? Crohn's Disease? Heart > > > > Disease Sick Kids? Osteoporosis Fat? Veal? Fat? Zits? Gas? > Mucus? > > > > Beer? > > > > > > > > > > > > Click here for the truth about dairy products and strong > bones. > > > > > > > > MILK SUCKS... > > > > FOR THE ANIMALS: > > > > Corporate-owned factories where cows are warehoused in huge > sheds > > > and > > > > treated like milk machines have replaced most small family > farms. > > > > With genetic manipulation and intensive production > technologies, > > > it > > > > is common for modern dairy cows to produce 100 pounds of milk > a > > > day— > > > > 10 times more than they would produce in nature. To keep milk > > > > production as high as possible, farmers artificially > inseminate > > > cows > > > > every year. Growth hormones and unnatural milking schedules > cause > > > > dairy cows' udders to become painful and so heavy that they > > > sometimes > > > > drag on the ground, resulting in frequent infections and > overuse > > > of > > > > antibiotics. Cows -- like all mammals -- make milk to feed > their > > > own > > > > babies -- not humans. > > > > > > > > > > > > Male calves, the "byproducts" of the dairy industry, endure 14 > > > to17 > > > > weeks of torment in veal crates so small that they can't even > turn > > > > around. Female calves often replace their old, worn-out > mothers, > > > or > > > > are slaughtered soon after birth for the rennet in their > stomachs > > > (an > > > > ingredient of most commercial cheeses). They are often kept in > > > tiny > > > > crates or tethered in stalls for the first few months of their > > > lives, > > > > only to grow up to become "milk machines" like their mothers. > > > > > > > > > > > > FOR THE ENVIRONMENT: > > > > Cow's milk is an inefficient food source. Cows, like humans, > > > expend > > > > the majority of their food intake simply leading their lives. > It > > > > takes a great deal of grain and other foodstuffs cycled > through > > > cows > > > > to produce a small amount of milk. And not only is milk a > waste of > > > > energy and water, the production of milk is also a disastrous > > > source > > > > of water pollution. A dairy cow produces 120 pounds of waste > every > > > > day -- equal to that of two dozen people, but with no toilets, > > > > sewers, or treatment plants. > > > > > > > > In Lancaster County, Pa., manure from dairy cows is > destroying the > > > > Chesapeake Bay, and in California, which produces one-fifth > of the > > > > country's total supply of milk, the manure from dairy farms > has > > > > poisoned vast expanses of underground water, rivers, and > streams. > > > In > > > > the Central Valley of California, the cows produce as much > > > excrement > > > > as a city of 21 million people, and even a smallish farm of > 200 > > > cows > > > > will produce as much nitrogen as in the sewage from a > community of > > > > 5,000 to 10,000 people, according to a U.S. Senate report on > > > animal > > > > waste. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > FOR YOUR HEALTH: > > > > Dairy products are a health hazard. They contain no fiber or > > > complex > > > > carbohydrates and are laden with saturated fat and > cholesterol. > > > They > > > > are contaminated with cow's blood and pus and are frequently > > > > contaminated with pesticides, hormones, and antibiotics. Dairy > > > > products are linked to allergies, constipation, obesity, heart > > > > disease, cancer, and other diseases. > > > > > > > > The late Dr. Benjamin Spock, America's leading authority on > child > > > > care, spoke out against feeding cow's milk to children, > saying it > > > can > > > > cause anemia, allergies, and insulin-dependent diabetes and > in the > > > > long term, will set kids up for obesity and heart disease, > > > America's > > > > number one cause of death. > > > > > > > > And dairy products may actually cause osteoporosis, not > prevent > > > it, > > > > since their high-protein content leaches calcium from the > body. > > > > Population studies, backed up by a groundbreaking Harvard > study of > > > > more than 75,000 nurses, suggest that drinking milk can > actually > > > > cause osteoporosis. Find out more by visiting our links page. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WHAT YOU CAN DO: > > > > According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the average > > > American > > > > consumes more than 550 pounds of dairy products annually, > which > > > is 40 > > > > percent of the bulk of the food we eat. Click here to see an > > > > illustration of the "Food Pyramid" which is representative of > > > actual > > > > American eating habits. > > > > > > > > Give the bottle the boot! Instead, try delicious soy or rice > milk, > > > > soy cheese, Tofutti ice cream, and tofu sour cream and cream > > > cheese. > > > > All are widely available at health food stores and many > > > supermarkets. > > > > Click here for information on adopting a dairy-free diet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In The News > > > > > > > > Anit-milk ad 'a cheap point at the expense of Catholics' (The > > > > Vancouver Sun) > > > > > > > > Factory Dairies Invade Wisconsin (Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel) > > > > > > > > White Poison: The Horrors of Milk(Times of India) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "There's no reason to drink cow's milk at any time in your > life. > > > It > > > > was designed for calves, not humans, and we should all stop > > > drinking > > > > it today." > > > > -Dr. Frank A. Oski > > > > Former Director of Pediatrics, Johns Hopkins University > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals > > > > 501 Front St., Norfolk, VA 23510; 757-622-PETA > > > > MilkSucks.comLiving Dairy-FreeFind Out MoreFree Vegetarian > > > Starter > > > > PackVegNow.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: .. They are the people who need some anger management not me Cathy, > can you not see that? It is obviously not on to punch someone unless they punch you first. I'm not arguing that what was done to you was right. I'm just saying that your attitude towards smokers is leading you into danger and you need to address that. There are some very nasty people out there, who do not like their behaviour being questioned. Your anger and its manifestation seem to be growing and growing. What if next time the smoker has a knife - or follows you home, or you've got your kids with you? Cathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 and who is Mc Big or Edith ?????(sorry for my ignorance) >"Lesley Dove" > > >RE: Re: I agree but >Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:52:26 +0100 > > >Yeah right next time I'll just let someone kill me... > >Lesley NOT Leslie (you're not MrBig or Edith under an alias are you?) > > > B. B. [ibyza2001] > 20 August 2002 13:32 > > RE: Re: I agree but > > > As a non violent a vegan should be, Leslie; violence is never the issue, >violence is never the answer NO MATTER WHO STARTED WHAT, THAT IS THE TRUE >VEGAN ESSENCE, peace > > > > >"Lesley Dove" > > > >> >RE: Re: I agree but > >Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:22:42 +0100 > > > > > >I've never punched a smoker for smoking, but I was punched for simply > >complaining about it, how can I be the one who is way over the top? > >It was hardly reasonable that I was punched, I don't think they needed >much > >provocation, in fact the woman who punched me was not the one I had >argued > >with, it was a man who got her to hit me, he was the one I complained to >for > >smoking. They are the people who need some anger management not me Cathy, > >can you not see that? What they did was over the top. > >It won't happen again if I learn some self-defence because I will be able >to > >fight back before the first punch hits me, asthma attakcs permitting of > >course. > > > >Lesley > > > > > > cathyjupp [cj] > > 20 August 2002 11:23 > > > > Re: I agree but > > > > > > Lesley - I'm serious here - go to your doctor and ask for counselling > > or some other form of anger management assistance. You are in > > serious danger of harming yourself (or someone else). You have > > already been punched in the face once and I can see it happening > > again, or worse, if you don't do something to manage your attitude. > > It is well over the top. You see yourself as taking reasonable steps > > to protect yourself, but I think your attitude has gone *way* past > > that. > > > > Cathy > > > > > > > > > > , "Lesley Dove" wrote: > > > > > > I'm getting almost past the stage of being peaceful with smokers, > > I'm even > > > considering getting a pepper/tear gas spray and to hell with the > > fact that > > > it is illegal in the UK (we have very little right to protect > > ourselves > > > effectively from violent antisocial freaks in this country), to > > spray on > > > smokers when they make me ill and are refusing to stub it out. If > > they are > > > unreasonable, it's just a matter of self-defence, not attack as I > > see it > > > since they are hurting me. They need to know the pain they are > > causing and > > > maybe mace would just give them some idea of how second hand smoke > > > inhalation feels to a sensitive person. > > > > > > I am considering a violent solution to the assault on my lungs in > > future > > > because I was punched in the face for complaining about a smoker > > the other > > > day so no more Mrs Peaceful Dove after the way I have suffered. I > > wouldn't > > > carry a gun or a knife though, that would be taking it too far! I > > had a bad > > > headache and blurred vision from being punched and had a bruised > > eyebrow and > > > forehead. I was feeling so ill for days because the smoke had > > already caused > > > me breathing trouble when I complained so I was wheezy for ages. My > > attacker > > > has not been caught, the police are pretty hopeless. I will of > > course press > > > charges if she is caught. Considering the circumstances that I was > > sitting > > > down struggling to breathe when I was punched it was a particularly > > cowardly > > > and callous attack. It was obvious to this woman that I was not in a > > > position to fight back. I ended up behaving badly on the other > > vegan > > > group just very soon after the attack and I think I was in a > > slightly > > > confused state at the time, so that the balance of my mind was > > disturbed, > > > but I still got banned from the group. > > > > > > Tobacco is not really an addiction, I don't believe in it as an > > addiction > > > anyway. I think smokers just say that as an excuse, but it's all in > > their > > > minds and it's just a habit that people choose to do because some > > people > > > like to annoy other people, that is why youngsters start usually, > > to rebel > > > and annoy someone, that is the true nature of the smoker. My dad > > and my gran > > > had no problem quitting when I was young, and there were no > > nicotine chewing > > > gums or patches then (people are spoilt these days!), they just > > quit on > > > their own because they realised it was a deadly habit. I was proud > > of them > > > both. Nowadays smokers whinge about how hard it is to quit, I'm > > sick of > > > that, they don't know how lucky they are to get so much help on the > > health > > > service, and to get their self-inflicted illnesses treated. I also > > don't > > > think people like George Best and Larry Hagman (alcohol abusers) > > deserve new > > > livers, if they don't care about their own that they are born with, > > and > > > drink as much as thery did they should be low priority for > > transplants, I > > > think, after children and people who could not have prevented their > > illness. > > > The innocent victims should be helped more, the woman who hit me > > had most > > > likely been drinking anyway, so much mindless violence is alcohol > > related, > > > that has innocent victims too. > > > > > > I'm sorry that dairy made you ill, I'm glad it didn't affect me at > > all that > > > way since I was already suffering from the smoke, but I guess we > > all have > > > our own unique set of sensitivities and allergies. I can eat > > anything which > > > most people class as food without any trouble, even as a meat-eater > > I never > > > had constipation or any food allergies. I just choose veganism on > > ethical > > > grounds. > > > > > > I think a food allergy would be easier to manage than a tobacco > > smoke > > > allergy because many people think I am faking it. That is hard to > > handle. > > > I've heard of someone else whose doctor said he was more likely > > allergic to > > > cats or mold, when he complained that tobacco smoke affected him > > badly, I > > > don't know why doctors should be so sceptical about this problem > > and try to > > > blame other things. > > > > > > I even got accused behind my back of being "unsociable" in one > > animal rights > > > group because I would not go in the smoky pub after protests with > > them, how > > > unfair is that? They knew I couldn't bear being around smoke, and > > were not > > > very understanding of my sensitivity. > > > It's very inconsistent that they were against making animals smoke > > in lab > > > experimenrts but wanted me to be forced to breathe in secondary > > smoke as a > > > prerequisite to being a fully accepted one of their crowd. I guess > > social > > > coercion to accept something damaging and unhealthy is OK with some > > AR > > > people, because it's not actual force. I don't see it as the right > > way to > > > treat one of your supposed friends. > > > > > > Lesley > > > > > > > > > B. B. [ibyza2001@h...] > > > 19 August 2002 18:35 > > > > > > I agree but > > > > > > > > > I agree fully that we can not go to a demo. and smoke, true! > > > > > > But many of us have been sick on dairy, egg and milk (I had no > > smokers > > > around luckily in that remote place I lived in in that times) > > > > > > This can be fully demonstrated too, so first danger tabacoo OK > > > > > > 2nd meet > > > > > > 3rd dairy & eggs > > > > > > But I guess it depends on individuals' reaction and on beeing > > coherent, > > > LET'S EVOLUTE & PUT A PECEFUL END TO SMOKE ADDICTION > > > > > > > > > > > > >"Lesley Dove" > > > > > > > >> > > >RE: Re: milk sucksssssssss > > > >Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:26:19 +0100 > > > > > > > > > > > >Is it worth AR people smoking though if the smokers on demos and > > marches > > > put > > > >people who are sensitive like me off going? It makes me so ill, > > that I am > > > >considering not going on a march again if I have to be > > surrounded by > > > >cigarette smoke, I felt very sick on the demo in London and > > after outside > > > >the pub, some of it might have been the car fumes in London but > > > experience > > > >has taught me that tobacco smoke affects me worse! I'm nmo use > > to anyone > > > >I believe demos and protests for the animals should be strictly > > > non-smoking > > > >affairs, it creates a very bad impression on the public to have > > people > > > >smoking. We have to present a nice clean living image. > > > > > > > >Dairy cows have no reason to feel let down by me, I am an > > ethical vegan > > > and > > > >will always promote veganism on animal rights grounds but I will > > not make > > > >what I believe to be false claims about giving up dairy leading > > to > > > improved > > > >health and less mucus for instance, because in my experience it > > made no > > > >difference to my health except mentally to my conscience and > > peace of > > > mind. > > > >My mucus and chest and head problems remained until I was able > > to live > > > away > > > >from second hand smoke. > > > > > > > >Lesley > > > > > > > > > > > > cathyjupp [cj@r...] > > > > 19 August 2002 13:29 > > > > > > > > Re: milk sucksssssssss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BUT I will > > > > > speak out when I see the vegan movement undermining anti- > > tobacco > > > > campaigning > > > > > by overstating the role of dairy in cancers. > > > > > > > > That would be overstating IN YOUR OPINION, would it? I'm sure > > that > > > > dairy cows everywhere would like to thank you. > > > > > > > > Their veganism will not protect them > > > > > from the harm they are doing to themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only vegans I know personally aren't vegan for their > > health, but > > > > for the animals' (I know a lot of Americals are, and some > > British of > > > > course - I just haven't met any personally). I don't think that > > > > anyone would reasonably argue that smoking was not bad for > > them - but > > > > some people think it worth it. Veganism has little or nothing > > to do > > > > with it. > > > > > > > > Is this going to turn into another anti-smoking forum? Shall I > > leave > > > > now? > > > > > > > > Cathy > > > > > > > > ps Hallo everyone who knows me from before. Been lurking for a > > > > while to see how everyone is and what's going on here - never > > > > intended to post because I spend far too much time at the lists > > when > > > > I get going, but you know how it is sometimes........ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ibizkus [ibyza2001@h...] > > > > > 19 August 2002 11:43 > > > > > > > > > > milk sucksssssssss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Got... Breast Cancer? Prostate Cancer? Crohn's Disease? Heart > > > > > Disease Sick Kids? Osteoporosis Fat? Veal? Fat? Zits? Gas? > > Mucus? > > > > > Beer? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Click here for the truth about dairy products and strong > > bones. > > > > > > > > > > MILK SUCKS... > > > > > FOR THE ANIMALS: > > > > > Corporate-owned factories where cows are warehoused in huge > > sheds > > > > and > > > > > treated like milk machines have replaced most small family > > farms. > > > > > With genetic manipulation and intensive production > > technologies, > > > > it > > > > > is common for modern dairy cows to produce 100 pounds of milk > > a > > > > day— > > > > > 10 times more than they would produce in nature. To keep milk > > > > > production as high as possible, farmers artificially > > inseminate > > > > cows > > > > > every year. Growth hormones and unnatural milking schedules > > cause > > > > > dairy cows' udders to become painful and so heavy that they > > > > sometimes > > > > > drag on the ground, resulting in frequent infections and > > overuse > > > > of > > > > > antibiotics. Cows -- like all mammals -- make milk to feed > > their > > > > own > > > > > babies -- not humans. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Male calves, the "byproducts" of the dairy industry, endure 14 > > > > to17 > > > > > weeks of torment in veal crates so small that they can't even > > turn > > > > > around. Female calves often replace their old, worn-out > > mothers, > > > > or > > > > > are slaughtered soon after birth for the rennet in their > > stomachs > > > > (an > > > > > ingredient of most commercial cheeses). They are often kept in > > > > tiny > > > > > crates or tethered in stalls for the first few months of their > > > > lives, > > > > > only to grow up to become "milk machines" like their mothers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > FOR THE ENVIRONMENT: > > > > > Cow's milk is an inefficient food source. Cows, like humans, > > > > expend > > > > > the majority of their food intake simply leading their lives. > > It > > > > > takes a great deal of grain and other foodstuffs cycled > > through > > > > cows > > > > > to produce a small amount of milk. And not only is milk a > > waste of > > > > > energy and water, the production of milk is also a disastrous > > > > source > > > > > of water pollution. A dairy cow produces 120 pounds of waste > > every > > > > > day -- equal to that of two dozen people, but with no toilets, > > > > > sewers, or treatment plants. > > > > > > > > > > In Lancaster County, Pa., manure from dairy cows is > > destroying the > > > > > Chesapeake Bay, and in California, which produces one-fifth > > of the > > > > > country's total supply of milk, the manure from dairy farms > > has > > > > > poisoned vast expanses of underground water, rivers, and > > streams. > > > > In > > > > > the Central Valley of California, the cows produce as much > > > > excrement > > > > > as a city of 21 million people, and even a smallish farm of > > 200 > > > > cows > > > > > will produce as much nitrogen as in the sewage from a > > community of > > > > > 5,000 to 10,000 people, according to a U.S. Senate report on > > > > animal > > > > > waste. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > FOR YOUR HEALTH: > > > > > Dairy products are a health hazard. They contain no fiber or > > > > complex > > > > > carbohydrates and are laden with saturated fat and > > cholesterol. > > > > They > > > > > are contaminated with cow's blood and pus and are frequently > > > > > contaminated with pesticides, hormones, and antibiotics. Dairy > > > > > products are linked to allergies, constipation, obesity, heart > > > > > disease, cancer, and other diseases. > > > > > > > > > > The late Dr. Benjamin Spock, America's leading authority on > > child > > > > > care, spoke out against feeding cow's milk to children, > > saying it > > > > can > > > > > cause anemia, allergies, and insulin-dependent diabetes and > > in the > > > > > long term, will set kids up for obesity and heart disease, > > > > America's > > > > > number one cause of death. > > > > > > > > > > And dairy products may actually cause osteoporosis, not > > prevent > > > > it, > > > > > since their high-protein content leaches calcium from the > > body. > > > > > Population studies, backed up by a groundbreaking Harvard > > study of > > > > > more than 75,000 nurses, suggest that drinking milk can > > actually > > > > > cause osteoporosis. Find out more by visiting our links page. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WHAT YOU CAN DO: > > > > > According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the average > > > > American > > > > > consumes more than 550 pounds of dairy products annually, > > which > > > > is 40 > > > > > percent of the bulk of the food we eat. Click here to see an > > > > > illustration of the "Food Pyramid" which is representative of > > > > actual > > > > > American eating habits. > > > > > > > > > > Give the bottle the boot! Instead, try delicious soy or rice > > milk, > > > > > soy cheese, Tofutti ice cream, and tofu sour cream and cream > > > > cheese. > > > > > All are widely available at health food stores and many > > > > supermarkets. > > > > > Click here for information on adopting a dairy-free diet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In The News > > > > > > > > > > Anit-milk ad 'a cheap point at the expense of Catholics' (The > > > > > Vancouver Sun) > > > > > > > > > > Factory Dairies Invade Wisconsin (Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel) > > > > > > > > > > White Poison: The Horrors of Milk(Times of India) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "There's no reason to drink cow's milk at any time in your > > life. > > > > It > > > > > was designed for calves, not humans, and we should all stop > > > > drinking > > > > > it today." > > > > > -Dr. Frank A. Oski > > > > > Former Director of Pediatrics, Johns Hopkins University > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals > > > > > 501 Front St., Norfolk, VA 23510; 757-622-PETA > > > > > MilkSucks.comLiving Dairy-FreeFind Out MoreFree Vegetarian > > > > Starter > > > > > PackVegNow.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 I am aware of these nasty people, this is exactly why I need to secure some means of self-protection, either a spray with something nasty that will disable an attacker or some form of martial arts training, which is frankly a lot of trouble and hard work so I would prefer a pepper spray. I think such a thing is very effective and not deadly like carrying a knife or gun myself, which I would personally never do even if I lived in the US. The danger is just there from these antisocial freaks who think that their bullying will be tolerated by decent people who are afraid of them. If someone hits back effectively it is OK I think, because the type of people who hurt me don't understand being politely reasoned with or even seeing someone getting ill and struggling to breathe. The smoking man even thought I was faking the breathing problem! You can't fake something like that, well I can't anyway. I am certainly not purposely putting myself in danger. On the evening I was hurt, I had already gone into the local off-licence/general store a few minutes earlier to get some soft drinks, and I had purposely waited a couple of minutes before going in because I spotted a man in there smoking while he was getting served, despite the no smoking sign clearly up at the counter. I didn't confront him because I was outside and decided I didn't want to say anything to the offending man as his smoke had not affected me directly, but I did advise the man serving that he might consider refusing to serve such rude people if the no smoking sign he had up was intended to be obeyed. I suppose you think women should not go out in the evening? They put themselves in danger and any woman who gets raped, well it must be her fault for putting herself in a dangerous place and SHE is the one who has to acknowledge that her behaviour was asking for it? Be careful the road you are going down, it's called blaming the victim. Maybe sometime you will be the victim of an unprovoked thumping (I hope that will not happen to you though), then you would perhaps feel the same about self-protection Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: > > I suppose you think women should not go out in the evening? They put > themselves in danger and any woman who gets raped, well it must be her fault > for putting herself in a dangerous place and SHE is the one who has to > acknowledge that her behaviour was asking for it? Now this is the kind of OTT stuff that completely swipes the legs out from under your arguments. I have never even hinted such a thing and frankly I find it rather offensive. Be careful the road you > are going down, it's called blaming the victim. Maybe sometime you will be > the victim of an unprovoked thumping (I hope that will not happen to you > though), then you would perhaps feel the same about self-protection. > But your thumping was not unprovoked. Unjustified, but not unprovoked. If I found myself the target of a genuinely unprovoked attack I would attempt to joke my way out of it, then run like hell. I was once attacked by a woman with mental health problems, but that was because I was in the wrong place at the wrong time, not because of anything I said or did - I never even made eye contact with her. >People who still smoke in the 21st > century are usually the most stubborn ones who care about no-one! > That's such a sweeping statement that I would not reply to it if it were not for the fact that it is simply not true. Whilst many people find smoking objectionable, you are the only person I have ever encountered who has an allergic reaction to one breath of smoke. My mother smokes and she cares about a lot of people. She visits her ex- neighbour in her nursing home (walking each way to do so), she volunteers at the Cat & Rabbit charity shop, she looks after her neighbours' animals, she does loads of generous stuff. I only use her as an example, I'm not holding her up as a paragon because she's my mother (heaven forfend, she often drives me nuts). She smokes in places where smoking is allowed and doesn't where it is not. As do most smokers. To label them as selfish are caring about no-one is very dogmatic. > I'm scared but I'm also very angry about what happened. I am determined to > reclaim my right to go out and feel safe. > I know you mean well and that you advise me the way you do because you do > not want me to get hurt, I understand this, but I do not want to become an > agoraphobic recluse, and that is the danger if I don't do something. Frankly Lesley I used to say these thing because you pissed me off, but now I'm seriously concerned for your wellbeing, physical and mental. You need to understand that until such time as it is against society's rules (or laws) to smoke, you are the one who will have to remove yourself from smokey atmospheres, whether that is just or not, or risk more of the sort of physical attack that has already occurred. > Should I keep on being a victim? Maybe you should stop thinking of yourself as one - we're not all out to get you, you know. The smoker is not smoking to hurt you, you are unfortunate enough to have an allergy, that's all. Cathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 I never said anything about women should be not out at evening, day or morning... Who you think I am? On top of that I am a woman,with a great intuition: I can really tell the difference between victimizing the victim or victimizing one self: No agressive conduct gives results. It all starts in your mind, but I see that's probably true when blaming studbornes, we might have a studborn behaviour ourself. You still haven't answered about what you think about positive thoughts and non-violence ¿are you wanting to ignore me? It's fine for me, there is nothing I can tell you much more besides what I have already done. Beeing polite is also answering a little note like:-yes, I am intersted or -No, I am not interested in you new-age-so-called-spiritual-b.s. I shall not judge so, farewell Oh, disciple of anger! Here I only meet loving and respectfull people, Spain is getting to be a better and better place every day, I atract non-smokers wherewer I go out, at any time, smokers always listen to my polite petitions, all is positive around me. In most places we can't smoke in Spain anymore where before it was very OK to do so; this "miracle" happened the last few years, with the help of GOOD HUMOR & DISPOSITION & patience (smoking is a sickness)so be compassionate no smoke in cinemas, buses,aeroplanes,supermarkets, offices from the gvmt, many non-smoker areas in restorants etc. lots of campains... >I suppose you think women should not go out in the evening? They put >themselves in danger and any woman who gets raped, well it must be her fault >for putting herself in a dangerous place and SHE is the one who has to >acknowledge that her behaviour was asking for it? Be careful the road you >are going down, it's called blaming the victim. Maybe sometime you will be >the victim of an unprovoked thumping (I hope that will not happen to you >though), then you would perhaps feel the same about self-protection. > >You could look at it the other way round, that smokers are knowingly putting >themselves in danger of anti-smoking people defending themselves against >them, and they deserve all they get if they inflict it on other people in >public. They know they are the minority after all, what do they expect if >they go around hurting people? Someone is likely to fight back, if not me >someone else. The respectful ones like Nikki usually give up, as she is >working on, or have given up already. People who still smoke in the 21st >century are usually the most stubborn ones who care about no-one! > >I'm scared but I'm also very angry about what happened. I am determined to >reclaim my right to go out and feel safe. >I know you mean well and that you advise me the way you do because you do >not want me to get hurt, I understand this, but I do not want to become an >agoraphobic recluse, and that is the danger if I don't do something. > >Should I keep on being a victim? > >Lesley > > > cathyjupp [cj] > 20 August 2002 15:29 > > Re: I agree but > > > , "Lesley Dove" wrote: > > . They are the people who need some anger management not me Cathy, > > can you not see that? > > It is obviously not on to punch someone unless they punch you first. > I'm not arguing that what was done to you was right. I'm just saying > that your attitude towards smokers is leading you into danger and you > need to address that. There are some very nasty people out there, > who do not like their behaviour being questioned. Your anger and its > manifestation seem to be growing and growing. What if next time the > smoker has a knife - or follows you home, or you've got your kids > with you? > Cathy > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 now..if you said chain yerself to a burger place so they couldn't get in..that i could see...... " cathyjupp " <cj wrote: >I (almost) give in. It is completely reasonable to mace someone >(illegal) for doing something you don't like (smoking - legal). > >Maybe you'll understand this: > >I *HATE* that people abuse animals/eat meat. It makes me very, very >angry. It destroys my quality of life (I don't exaggerate). I could >not bear on Saturday (live exports demo) to watch the video they were >showing of calves struggling in pain and terror. I am filling up >with tears even as I write this. Meat (read meat and dairy here) >eating is self-destructive, planet-destructive, other-humans- >destructive, in fact downright bloody selfish. But it is legal. Do >you consider that I would be justified in macing someone who refused >to stop eating a burger in front of me? Bear in mind here that we're >not just talking about an allergic reaction, which can be avoided by >absenting oneself, we're talking about a living creature that was >forced to endure who-knows-what suffering and abuse before being >ground into burgermeat, a creature that could not move away. Am I >justified? If not, how can you think that you would be justified in >macing an individual who refused your probably less than polite >demand that they desist? > >Cathy > >ps I know that legal does not necessary mean justifiable, but for the >moment that's the way it is. > > > >To send an email to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 Just people on another vegan group who also spell my name that way. Lesley B. B. [ibyza2001]20 August 2002 15:57 Subject: RE: Re: I agree but and who is Mc Big or Edith ?????(sorry for my ignorance) >"Lesley Dove" > > >RE: Re: I agree but >Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:52:26 +0100 > > >Yeah right next time I'll just let someone kill me... > >Lesley NOT Leslie (you're not MrBig or Edith under an alias are you?) > > > B. B. [ibyza2001] > 20 August 2002 13:32 > > RE: Re: I agree but > > > As a non violent a vegan should be, Leslie; violence is never the issue, >violence is never the answer NO MATTER WHO STARTED WHAT, THAT IS THE TRUE >VEGAN ESSENCE, peace > > > > >"Lesley Dove" > > > >> >RE: Re: I agree but > >Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:22:42 +0100 > > > > > >I've never punched a smoker for smoking, but I was punched for simply > >complaining about it, how can I be the one who is way over the top? > >It was hardly reasonable that I was punched, I don't think they needed >much > >provocation, in fact the woman who punched me was not the one I had >argued > >with, it was a man who got her to hit me, he was the one I complained to >for > >smoking. They are the people who need some anger management not me Cathy, > >can you not see that? What they did was over the top. > >It won't happen again if I learn some self-defence because I will be able >to > >fight back before the first punch hits me, asthma attakcs permitting of > >course. > > > >Lesley > > > > > > cathyjupp [cj] > > 20 August 2002 11:23 > > > > Re: I agree but > > > > > > Lesley - I'm serious here - go to your doctor and ask for counselling > > or some other form of anger management assistance. You are in > > serious danger of harming yourself (or someone else). You have > > already been punched in the face once and I can see it happening > > again, or worse, if you don't do something to manage your attitude. > > It is well over the top. You see yourself as taking reasonable steps > > to protect yourself, but I think your attitude has gone *way* past > > that. > > > > Cathy > > > > > > > > > > , "Lesley Dove" wrote: > > > > > > I'm getting almost past the stage of being peaceful with smokers, > > I'm even > > > considering getting a pepper/tear gas spray and to hell with the > > fact that > > > it is illegal in the UK (we have very little right to protect > > ourselves > > > effectively from violent antisocial freaks in this country), to > > spray on > > > smokers when they make me ill and are refusing to stub it out. If > > they are > > > unreasonable, it's just a matter of self-defence, not attack as I > > see it > > > since they are hurting me. They need to know the pain they are > > causing and > > > maybe mace would just give them some idea of how second hand smoke > > > inhalation feels to a sensitive person. > > > > > > I am considering a violent solution to the assault on my lungs in > > future > > > because I was punched in the face for complaining about a smoker > > the other > > > day so no more Mrs Peaceful Dove after the way I have suffered. I > > wouldn't > > > carry a gun or a knife though, that would be taking it too far! I > > had a bad > > > headache and blurred vision from being punched and had a bruised > > eyebrow and > > > forehead. I was feeling so ill for days because the smoke had > > already caused > > > me breathing trouble when I complained so I was wheezy for ages. My > > attacker > > > has not been caught, the police are pretty hopeless. I will of > > course press > > > charges if she is caught. Considering the circumstances that I was > > sitting > > > down struggling to breathe when I was punched it was a particularly > > cowardly > > > and callous attack. It was obvious to this woman that I was not in a > > > position to fight back. I ended up behaving badly on the other > > vegan > > > group just very soon after the attack and I think I was in a > > slightly > > > confused state at the time, so that the balance of my mind was > > disturbed, > > > but I still got banned from the group. > > > > > > Tobacco is not really an addiction, I don't believe in it as an > > addiction > > > anyway. I think smokers just say that as an excuse, but it's all in > > their > > > minds and it's just a habit that people choose to do because some > > people > > > like to annoy other people, that is why youngsters start usually, > > to rebel > > > and annoy someone, that is the true nature of the smoker. My dad > > and my gran > > > had no problem quitting when I was young, and there were no > > nicotine chewing > > > gums or patches then (people are spoilt these days!), they just > > quit on > > > their own because they realised it was a deadly habit. I was proud > > of them > > > both. Nowadays smokers whinge about how hard it is to quit, I'm > > sick of > > > that, they don't know how lucky they are to get so much help on the > > health > > > service, and to get their self-inflicted illnesses treated. I also > > don't > > > think people like George Best and Larry Hagman (alcohol abusers) > > deserve new > > > livers, if they don't care about their own that they are born with, > > and > > > drink as much as thery did they should be low priority for > > transplants, I > > > think, after children and people who could not have prevented their > > illness. > > > The innocent victims should be helped more, the woman who hit me > > had most > > > likely been drinking anyway, so much mindless violence is alcohol > > related, > > > that has innocent victims too. > > > > > > I'm sorry that dairy made you ill, I'm glad it didn't affect me at > > all that > > > way since I was already suffering from the smoke, but I guess we > > all have > > > our own unique set of sensitivities and allergies. I can eat > > anything which > > > most people class as food without any trouble, even as a meat-eater > > I never > > > had constipation or any food allergies. I just choose veganism on > > ethical > > > grounds. > > > > > > I think a food allergy would be easier to manage than a tobacco > > smoke > > > allergy because many people think I am faking it. That is hard to > > handle. > > > I've heard of someone else whose doctor said he was more likely > > allergic to > > > cats or mold, when he complained that tobacco smoke affected him > > badly, I > > > don't know why doctors should be so sceptical about this problem > > and try to > > > blame other things. > > > > > > I even got accused behind my back of being "unsociable" in one > > animal rights > > > group because I would not go in the smoky pub after protests with > > them, how > > > unfair is that? They knew I couldn't bear being around smoke, and > > were not > > > very understanding of my sensitivity. > > > It's very inconsistent that they were against making animals smoke > > in lab > > > experimenrts but wanted me to be forced to breathe in secondary > > smoke as a > > > prerequisite to being a fully accepted one of their crowd. I guess > > social > > > coercion to accept something damaging and unhealthy is OK with some > > AR > > > people, because it's not actual force. I don't see it as the right > > way to > > > treat one of your supposed friends. > > > > > > Lesley > > > > > > > > > B. B. [ibyza2001@h...] > > > 19 August 2002 18:35 > > > > > > I agree but > > > > > > > > > I agree fully that we can not go to a demo. and smoke, true! > > > > > > But many of us have been sick on dairy, egg and milk (I had no > > smokers > > > around luckily in that remote place I lived in in that times) > > > > > > This can be fully demonstrated too, so first danger tabacoo OK > > > > > > 2nd meet > > > > > > 3rd dairy & eggs > > > > > > But I guess it depends on individuals' reaction and on beeing > > coherent, > > > LET'S EVOLUTE & PUT A PECEFUL END TO SMOKE ADDICTION > > > > > > > > > > > > >"Lesley Dove" > > > > > > > >> > > >RE: Re: milk sucksssssssss > > > >Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:26:19 +0100 > > > > > > > > > > > >Is it worth AR people smoking though if the smokers on demos and > > marches > > > put > > > >people who are sensitive like me off going? It makes me so ill, > > that I am > > > >considering not going on a march again if I have to be > > surrounded by > > > >cigarette smoke, I felt very sick on the demo in London and > > after outside > > > >the pub, some of it might have been the car fumes in London but > > > experience > > > >has taught me that tobacco smoke affects me worse! I'm nmo use > > to anyone > > > >I believe demos and protests for the animals should be strictly > > > non-smoking > > > >affairs, it creates a very bad impression on the public to have > > people > > > >smoking. We have to present a nice clean living image. > > > > > > > >Dairy cows have no reason to feel let down by me, I am an > > ethical vegan > > > and > > > >will always promote veganism on animal rights grounds but I will > > not make > > > >what I believe to be false claims about giving up dairy leading > > to > > > improved > > > >health and less mucus for instance, because in my experience it > > made no > > > >difference to my health except mentally to my conscience and > > peace of > > > mind. > > > >My mucus and chest and head problems remained until I was able > > to live > > > away > > > >from second hand smoke. > > > > > > > >Lesley > > > > > > > > > > > > cathyjupp [cj@r...] > > > > 19 August 2002 13:29 > > > > > > > > Re: milk sucksssssssss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BUT I will > > > > > speak out when I see the vegan movement undermining anti- > > tobacco > > > > campaigning > > > > > by overstating the role of dairy in cancers. > > > > > > > > That would be overstating IN YOUR OPINION, would it? I'm sure > > that > > > > dairy cows everywhere would like to thank you. > > > > > > > > Their veganism will not protect them > > > > > from the harm they are doing to themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only vegans I know personally aren't vegan for their > > health, but > > > > for the animals' (I know a lot of Americals are, and some > > British of > > > > course - I just haven't met any personally). I don't think that > > > > anyone would reasonably argue that smoking was not bad for > > them - but > > > > some people think it worth it. Veganism has little or nothing > > to do > > > > with it. > > > > > > > > Is this going to turn into another anti-smoking forum? Shall I > > leave > > > > now? > > > > > > > > Cathy > > > > > > > > ps Hallo everyone who knows me from before. Been lurking for a > > > > while to see how everyone is and what's going on here - never > > > > intended to post because I spend far too much time at the lists > > when > > > > I get going, but you know how it is sometimes........ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ibizkus [ibyza2001@h...] > > > > > 19 August 2002 11:43 > > > > > > > > > > milk sucksssssssss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Got... Breast Cancer? Prostate Cancer? Crohn's Disease? Heart > > > > > Disease Sick Kids? Osteoporosis Fat? Veal? Fat? Zits? Gas? > > Mucus? > > > > > Beer? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Click here for the truth about dairy products and strong > > bones. > > > > > > > > > > MILK SUCKS... > > > > > FOR THE ANIMALS: > > > > > Corporate-owned factories where cows are warehoused in huge > > sheds > > > > and > > > > > treated like milk machines have replaced most small family > > farms. > > > > > With genetic manipulation and intensive production > > technologies, > > > > it > > > > > is common for modern dairy cows to produce 100 pounds of milk > > a > > > > day— > > > > > 10 times more than they would produce in nature. To keep milk > > > > > production as high as possible, farmers artificially > > inseminate > > > > cows > > > > > every year. Growth hormones and unnatural milking schedules > > cause > > > > > dairy cows' udders to become painful and so heavy that they > > > > sometimes > > > > > drag on the ground, resulting in frequent infections and > > overuse > > > > of > > > > > antibiotics. Cows -- like all mammals -- make milk to feed > > their > > > > own > > > > > babies -- not humans. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Male calves, the "byproducts" of the dairy industry, endure 14 > > > > to17 > > > > > weeks of torment in veal crates so small that they can't even > > turn > > > > > around. Female calves often replace their old, worn-out > > mothers, > > > > or > > > > > are slaughtered soon after birth for the rennet in their > > stomachs > > > > (an > > > > > ingredient of most commercial cheeses). They are often kept in > > > > tiny > > > > > crates or tethered in stalls for the first few months of their > > > > lives, > > > > > only to grow up to become "milk machines" like their mothers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > FOR THE ENVIRONMENT: > > > > > Cow's milk is an inefficient food source. Cows, like humans, > > > > expend > > > > > the majority of their food intake simply leading their lives. > > It > > > > > takes a great deal of grain and other foodstuffs cycled > > through > > > > cows > > > > > to produce a small amount of milk. And not only is milk a > > waste of > > > > > energy and water, the production of milk is also a disastrous > > > > source > > > > > of water pollution. A dairy cow produces 120 pounds of waste > > every > > > > > day -- equal to that of two dozen people, but with no toilets, > > > > > sewers, or treatment plants. > > > > > > > > > > In Lancaster County, Pa., manure from dairy cows is > > destroying the > > > > > Chesapeake Bay, and in California, which produces one-fifth > > of the > > > > > country's total supply of milk, the manure from dairy farms > > has > > > > > poisoned vast expanses of underground water, rivers, and > > streams. > > > > In > > > > > the Central Valley of California, the cows produce as much > > > > excrement > > > > > as a city of 21 million people, and even a smallish farm of > > 200 > > > > cows > > > > > will produce as much nitrogen as in the sewage from a > > community of > > > > > 5,000 to 10,000 people, according to a U.S. Senate report on > > > > animal > > > > > waste. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > FOR YOUR HEALTH: > > > > > Dairy products are a health hazard. They contain no fiber or > > > > complex > > > > > carbohydrates and are laden with saturated fat and > > cholesterol. > > > > They > > > > > are contaminated with cow's blood and pus and are frequently > > > > > contaminated with pesticides, hormones, and antibiotics. Dairy > > > > > products are linked to allergies, constipation, obesity, heart > > > > > disease, cancer, and other diseases. > > > > > > > > > > The late Dr. Benjamin Spock, America's leading authority on > > child > > > > > care, spoke out against feeding cow's milk to children, > > saying it > > > > can > > > > > cause anemia, allergies, and insulin-dependent diabetes and > > in the > > > > > long term, will set kids up for obesity and heart disease, > > > > America's > > > > > number one cause of death. > > > > > > > > > > And dairy products may actually cause osteoporosis, not > > prevent > > > > it, > > > > > since their high-protein content leaches calcium from the > > body. > > > > > Population studies, backed up by a groundbreaking Harvard > > study of > > > > > more than 75,000 nurses, suggest that drinking milk can > > actually > > > > > cause osteoporosis. Find out more by visiting our links page. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WHAT YOU CAN DO: > > > > > According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the average > > > > American > > > > > consumes more than 550 pounds of dairy products annually, > > which > > > > is 40 > > > > > percent of the bulk of the food we eat. Click here to see an > > > > > illustration of the "Food Pyramid" which is representative of > > > > actual > > > > > American eating habits. > > > > > > > > > > Give the bottle the boot! Instead, try delicious soy or rice > > milk, > > > > > soy cheese, Tofutti ice cream, and tofu sour cream and cream > > > > cheese. > > > > > All are widely available at health food stores and many > > > > supermarkets. > > > > > Click here for information on adopting a dairy-free diet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In The News > > > > > > > > > > Anit-milk ad 'a cheap point at the expense of Catholics' (The > > > > > Vancouver Sun) > > > > > > > > > > Factory Dairies Invade Wisconsin (Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel) > > > > > > > > > > White Poison: The Horrors of Milk(Times of India) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "There's no reason to drink cow's milk at any time in your > > life. > > > > It > > > > > was designed for calves, not humans, and we should all stop > > > > drinking > > > > > it today." > > > > > -Dr. Frank A. Oski > > > > > Former Director of Pediatrics, Johns Hopkins University > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals > > > > > 501 Front St., Norfolk, VA 23510; 757-622-PETA > > > > > MilkSucks.comLiving Dairy-FreeFind Out MoreFree Vegetarian > > > > Starter > > > > > PackVegNow.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 Hi > and who is Mc Big or Edith ?????(sorry for my ignorance) Two members of and Vegans Uncensored (Michael's lists) - or at least I assume they are still there! BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release 02/08/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 Hi Lesley (et al) I'll just present a thought or two on smoking. Fundamentally, I agree that it is a highly unsociable thing to do. I don't enjoy sitting in smoky pubs or breathing in other people's smoke, and I look forward to the day when it will be illegal to smoke in public or to force tobacco smoke onto others. However, at the moment it is a legal activity, and in certain situations (such as in pubs) is considered socially acceptable. Yes, I agree that society needs to change its views for the good of the innocent non-smokers but that isn't achieved by harassing or physically attacking smokers. It is done by presenting well-reasoned arguments in a peaceful and intelligent manner. BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release 02/08/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 folks from another group don't sweat it bea. " B. B. " <ibyza2001 wrote: > > > > > > >and who is Mc Big or Edith ?????(sorry for my ignorance) gt; " Lesley Dove " gt; gt; gt;RE: Re: I agree but gt;Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:52:26 +0100 gt; gt; gt;Yeah right next time I'll just let someone kill me... gt; gt;Lesley NOT Leslie (you're not MrBig or Edith under an alias are you?) gt; gt; -----Original Message----- gt; B. B. [ibyza2001] gt; 20 August 2002 13:32 gt; gt; RE: Re: I agree but gt; gt; gt; As a non violent a vegan should be, Leslie; violence is never the issue, gt;violence is never the answer NO MATTER WHO STARTED WHAT, THAT IS THE TRUE gt;VEGAN ESSENCE, peace gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; " Lesley Dove " gt; gt; gt; gt;gt; gt;RE: Re: I agree but gt; gt;Tue, 20 Aug 2002 12:22:42 +0100 gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt;I've never punched a smoker for smoking, but I was punched for simply gt; gt;complaining about it, how can I be the one who is way over the top? gt; gt;It was hardly reasonable that I was punched, I don't think they needed gt;much gt; gt;provocation, in fact the woman who punched me was not the one I had gt;argued gt; gt;with, it was a man who got her to hit me, he was the one I complained to gt;for gt; gt;smoking. They are the people who need some anger management not me Cathy, gt; gt;can you not see that? What they did was over the top. gt; gt;It won't happen again if I learn some self-defence because I will be able gt;to gt; gt;fight back before the first punch hits me, asthma attakcs permitting of gt; gt;course. gt; gt; gt; gt;Lesley gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; cathyjupp [cj] gt; gt; 20 August 2002 11:23 gt; gt; gt; gt; Re: I agree but gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Lesley - I'm serious here - go to your doctor and ask for counselling gt; gt; or some other form of anger management assistance. You are in gt; gt; serious danger of harming yourself (or someone else). You have gt; gt; already been punched in the face once and I can see it happening gt; gt; again, or worse, if you don't do something to manage your attitude. gt; gt; It is well over the top. You see yourself as taking reasonable steps gt; gt; to protect yourself, but I think your attitude has gone *way* past gt; gt; that. gt; gt; gt; gt; Cathy gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; , " Lesley Dove " wrote: gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; I'm getting almost past the stage of being peaceful with smokers, gt; gt; I'm even gt; gt; gt; considering getting a pepper/tear gas spray and to hell with the gt; gt; fact that gt; gt; gt; it is illegal in the UK (we have very little right to protect gt; gt; ourselves gt; gt; gt; effectively from violent antisocial freaks in this country), to gt; gt; spray on gt; gt; gt; smokers when they make me ill and are refusing to stub it out. If gt; gt; they are gt; gt; gt; unreasonable, it's just a matter of self-defence, not attack as I gt; gt; see it gt; gt; gt; since they are hurting me. They need to know the pain they are gt; gt; causing and gt; gt; gt; maybe mace would just give them some idea of how second hand smoke gt; gt; gt; inhalation feels to a sensitive person. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; I am considering a violent solution to the assault on my lungs in gt; gt; future gt; gt; gt; because I was punched in the face for complaining about a smoker gt; gt; the other gt; gt; gt; day so no more Mrs Peaceful Dove after the way I have suffered. I gt; gt; wouldn't gt; gt; gt; carry a gun or a knife though, that would be taking it too far! I gt; gt; had a bad gt; gt; gt; headache and blurred vision from being punched and had a bruised gt; gt; eyebrow and gt; gt; gt; forehead. I was feeling so ill for days because the smoke had gt; gt; already caused gt; gt; gt; me breathing trouble when I complained so I was wheezy for ages. My gt; gt; attacker gt; gt; gt; has not been caught, the police are pretty hopeless. I will of gt; gt; course press gt; gt; gt; charges if she is caught. Considering the circumstances that I was gt; gt; sitting gt; gt; gt; down struggling to breathe when I was punched it was a particularly gt; gt; cowardly gt; gt; gt; and callous attack. It was obvious to this woman that I was not in a gt; gt; gt; position to fight back. I ended up behaving badly on the other gt; gt; vegan gt; gt; gt; group just very soon after the attack and I think I was in a gt; gt; slightly gt; gt; gt; confused state at the time, so that the balance of my mind was gt; gt; disturbed, gt; gt; gt; but I still got banned from the group. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Tobacco is not really an addiction, I don't believe in it as an gt; gt; addiction gt; gt; gt; anyway. I think smokers just say that as an excuse, but it's all in gt; gt; their gt; gt; gt; minds and it's just a habit that people choose to do because some gt; gt; people gt; gt; gt; like to annoy other people, that is why youngsters start usually, gt; gt; to rebel gt; gt; gt; and annoy someone, that is the true nature of the smoker. My dad gt; gt; and my gran gt; gt; gt; had no problem quitting when I was young, and there were no gt; gt; nicotine chewing gt; gt; gt; gums or patches then (people are spoilt these days!), they just gt; gt; quit on gt; gt; gt; their own because they realised it was a deadly habit. I was proud gt; gt; of them gt; gt; gt; both. Nowadays smokers whinge about how hard it is to quit, I'm gt; gt; sick of gt; gt; gt; that, they don't know how lucky they are to get so much help on the gt; gt; health gt; gt; gt; service, and to get their self-inflicted illnesses treated. I also gt; gt; don't gt; gt; gt; think people like George Best and Larry Hagman (alcohol abusers) gt; gt; deserve new gt; gt; gt; livers, if they don't care about their own that they are born with, gt; gt; and gt; gt; gt; drink as much as thery did they should be low priority for gt; gt; transplants, I gt; gt; gt; think, after children and people who could not have prevented their gt; gt; illness. gt; gt; gt; The innocent victims should be helped more, the woman who hit me gt; gt; had most gt; gt; gt; likely been drinking anyway, so much mindless violence is alcohol gt; gt; related, gt; gt; gt; that has innocent victims too. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; I'm sorry that dairy made you ill, I'm glad it didn't affect me at gt; gt; all that gt; gt; gt; way since I was already suffering from the smoke, but I guess we gt; gt; all have gt; gt; gt; our own unique set of sensitivities and allergies. I can eat gt; gt; anything which gt; gt; gt; most people class as food without any trouble, even as a meat-eater gt; gt; I never gt; gt; gt; had constipation or any food allergies. I just choose veganism on gt; gt; ethical gt; gt; gt; grounds. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; I think a food allergy would be easier to manage than a tobacco gt; gt; smoke gt; gt; gt; allergy because many people think I am faking it. That is hard to gt; gt; handle. gt; gt; gt; I've heard of someone else whose doctor said he was more likely gt; gt; allergic to gt; gt; gt; cats or mold, when he complained that tobacco smoke affected him gt; gt; badly, I gt; gt; gt; don't know why doctors should be so sceptical about this problem gt; gt; and try to gt; gt; gt; blame other things. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; I even got accused behind my back of being " unsociable " in one gt; gt; animal rights gt; gt; gt; group because I would not go in the smoky pub after protests with gt; gt; them, how gt; gt; gt; unfair is that? They knew I couldn't bear being around smoke, and gt; gt; were not gt; gt; gt; very understanding of my sensitivity. gt; gt; gt; It's very inconsistent that they were against making animals smoke gt; gt; in lab gt; gt; gt; experimenrts but wanted me to be forced to breathe in secondary gt; gt; smoke as a gt; gt; gt; prerequisite to being a fully accepted one of their crowd. I guess gt; gt; social gt; gt; gt; coercion to accept something damaging and unhealthy is OK with some gt; gt; AR gt; gt; gt; people, because it's not actual force. I don't see it as the right gt; gt; way to gt; gt; gt; treat one of your supposed friends. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Lesley gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; B. B. [ibyza2001@h...] gt; gt; gt; 19 August 2002 18:35 gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; I agree but gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; I agree fully that we can not go to a demo. and smoke, true! gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; But many of us have been sick on dairy, egg and milk (I had no gt; gt; smokers gt; gt; gt; around luckily in that remote place I lived in in that times) gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; This can be fully demonstrated too, so first danger tabacoo OK gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; 2nd meet gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; 3rd dairyamp;eggs gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; But I guess it depends on individuals' reaction and on beeing gt; gt; coherent, gt; gt; gt; LET'S EVOLUTE amp; PUT A PECEFUL END TO SMOKE ADDICTION gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; " Lesley Dove " gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt;gt; gt; gt; gt;RE: Re: milk sucksssssssss gt; gt; gt; gt;Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:26:19 +0100 gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt;Is it worth AR people smoking though if the smokers on demos and gt; gt; marches gt; gt; gt; put gt; gt; gt; gt;people who are sensitive like me off going? It makes me so ill, gt; gt; that I am gt; gt; gt; gt;considering not going on a march again if I have to be gt; gt; surrounded by gt; gt; gt; gt;cigarette smoke, I felt very sick on the demo in London and gt; gt; after outside gt; gt; gt; gt;the pub, some of it might have been the car fumes in London but gt; gt; gt; experience gt; gt; gt; gt;has taught me that tobacco smoke affects me worse! I'm nmo use gt; gt; to anyone gt; gt; gt; gt;I believe demos and protests for the animals should be strictly gt; gt; gt; non-smoking gt; gt; gt; gt;affairs, it creates a very bad impression on the public to have gt; gt; people gt; gt; gt; gt;smoking. We have to present a nice clean living image. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt;Dairy cows have no reason to feel let down by me, I am an gt; gt; ethical vegan gt; gt; gt; and gt; gt; gt; gt;will always promote veganism on animal rights grounds but I will gt; gt; not make gt; gt; gt; gt;what I believe to be false claims about giving up dairy leading gt; gt; to gt; gt; gt; improved gt; gt; gt; gt;health and less mucus for instance, because in my experience it gt; gt; made no gt; gt; gt; gt;difference to my health except mentally to my conscience and gt; gt; peace of gt; gt; gt; mind. gt; gt; gt; gt;My mucus and chest and head problems remained until I was able gt; gt; to live gt; gt; gt; away gt; gt; gt; gt;from second hand smoke. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt;Lesley gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; -----Original Message----- gt; gt; gt; gt; cathyjupp [cj@r...] gt; gt; gt; gt; 19 August 2002 13:29 gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Re: milk sucksssssssss gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; BUT I will gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; speak out when I see the vegan movement undermining anti- gt; gt; tobacco gt; gt; gt; gt; campaigning gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; by overstating the role of dairy in cancers. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; That would be overstating IN YOUR OPINION, would it? I'm sure gt; gt; that gt; gt; gt; gt; dairy cows everywhere would like to thank you. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Their veganism will not protect them gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; from the harm they are doing to themselves. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; The only vegans I know personally aren't vegan for their gt; gt; health, but gt; gt; gt; gt; for the animals' (I know a lot of Americals are, and some gt; gt; British of gt; gt; gt; gt; course - I just haven't met any personally). I don't think that gt; gt; gt; gt; anyone would reasonably argue that smoking was not bad for gt; gt; them - but gt; gt; gt; gt; some people think it worth it. Veganism has little or nothing gt; gt; to do gt; gt; gt; gt; with it. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Is this going to turn into another anti-smoking forum? Shall I gt; gt; leave gt; gt; gt; gt; now? gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Cathy gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; ps Hallo everyone who knows me from before. Been lurking for a gt; gt; gt; gt; while to see how everyone is and what's going on here - never gt; gt; gt; gt; intended to post because I spend far too much time at the lists gt; gt; when gt; gt; gt; gt; I get going, but you know how it is sometimes........ gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; ibizkus [ibyza2001@h...] gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Sent: 19 August 2002 11:43 gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; milk sucksssssssss gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Got... Breast Cancer? Prostate Cancer? Crohn's Disease? Heart gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Disease Sick Kids? Osteoporosis Fat? Veal? Fat? Zits? Gas? gt; gt; Mucus? gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Beer? gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Click here for the truth about dairy products and strong gt; gt; bones. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; MILK SUCKS... gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; FOR THE ANIMALS: gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Corporate-owned factories where cows are warehoused in huge gt; gt; sheds gt; gt; gt; gt; and gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; treated like milk machines have replaced most small family gt; gt; farms. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; With genetic manipulation and intensive production gt; gt; technologies, gt; gt; gt; gt; it gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; is common for modern dairy cows to produce 100 pounds of milk gt; gt; a gt; gt; gt; gt; day— gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; 10 times more than they would produce in nature. To keep milk gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; production as high as possible, farmers artificially gt; gt; inseminate gt; gt; gt; gt; cows gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; every year. Growth hormones and unnatural milking schedules gt; gt; cause gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; dairy cows' udders to become painful and so heavy that they gt; gt; gt; gt; sometimes gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; drag on the ground, resulting in frequent infections and gt; gt; overuse gt; gt; gt; gt; of gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; antibiotics. Cows -- like all mammals -- make milk to feed gt; gt; their gt; gt; gt; gt; own gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; babies -- not humans. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Male calves, the " byproducts " of the dairy industry, endure 14 gt; gt; gt; gt; to17 gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; weeks of torment in veal crates so small that they can't even gt; gt; turn gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; around. Female calves often replace their old, worn-out gt; gt; mothers, gt; gt; gt; gt; or gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; are slaughtered soon after birth for the rennet in their gt; gt; stomachs gt; gt; gt; gt; (an gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; ingredient of most commercial cheeses). They are often kept in gt; gt; gt; gt; tiny gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; crates or tethered in stalls for the first few months of their gt; gt; gt; gt; lives, gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; only to grow up to become " milk machines " like their mothers. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; FOR THE ENVIRONMENT: gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Cow's milk is an inefficient food source. Cows, like humans, gt; gt; gt; gt; expend gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; the majority of their food intake simply leading their lives. gt; gt; It gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; takes a great deal of grain and other foodstuffs cycled gt; gt; through gt; gt; gt; gt; cows gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; to produce a small amount of milk. And not only is milk a gt; gt; waste of gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; energy and water, the production of milk is also a disastrous gt; gt; gt; gt; source gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; of water pollution. A dairy cow produces 120 pounds of waste gt; gt; every gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; day -- equal to that of two dozen people, but with no toilets, gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; sewers, or treatment plants. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; In Lancaster County, Pa., manure from dairy cows is gt; gt; destroying the gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Chesapeake Bay, and in California, which produces one-fifth gt; gt; of the gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; country's total supply of milk, the manure from dairy farms gt; gt; has gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; poisoned vast expanses of underground water, rivers, and gt; gt; streams. gt; gt; gt; gt; In gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; the Central Valley of California, the cows produce as much gt; gt; gt; gt; excrement gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; as a city of 21 million people, and even a smallish farm of gt; gt; 200 gt; gt; gt; gt; cows gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; will produce as much nitrogen as in the sewage from a gt; gt; community of gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; 5,000 to 10,000 people, according to a U.S. Senate report on gt; gt; gt; gt; animal gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; waste. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; FOR YOUR HEALTH: gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Dairy products are a health hazard. They contain no fiber or gt; gt; gt; gt; complex gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; carbohydrates and are laden with saturated fat and gt; gt; cholesterol. gt; gt; gt; gt; They gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; are contaminated with cow's blood and pus and are frequently gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; contaminated with pesticides, hormones, and antibiotics. Dairy gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; products are linked to allergies, constipation, obesity, heart gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; disease, cancer, and other diseases. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; The late Dr. Benjamin Spock, America's leading authority on gt; gt; child gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; care, spoke out against feeding cow's milk to children, gt; gt; saying it gt; gt; gt; gt; can gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; cause anemia, allergies, and insulin-dependent diabetes and gt; gt; in the gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; long term, will set kids up for obesity and heart disease, gt; gt; gt; gt; America's gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; number one cause of death. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; And dairy products may actually cause osteoporosis, not gt; gt; prevent gt; gt; gt; gt; it, gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; since their high-protein content leaches calcium from the gt; gt; body. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Population studies, backed up by a groundbreaking Harvard gt; gt; study of gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; more than 75,000 nurses, suggest that drinking milk can gt; gt; actually gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; cause osteoporosis. Find out more by visiting our links page. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; WHAT YOU CAN DO: gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the average gt; gt; gt; gt; American gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; consumes more than 550 pounds of dairy products annually, gt; gt; which gt; gt; gt; gt; is 40 gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; percent of the bulk of the food we eat. Click here to see an gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; illustration of the " Food Pyramid " which is representative of gt; gt; gt; gt; actual gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; American eating habits. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Give the bottle the boot! Instead, try delicious soy or rice gt; gt; milk, gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; soy cheese, Tofutti ice cream, and tofu sour cream and cream gt; gt; gt; gt; cheese. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; All are widely available at health food stores and many gt; gt; gt; gt; supermarkets. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Click here for information on adopting a dairy-free diet. gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; In The News gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Anit-milk ad 'a cheap point at the expense of Catholics' (The gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Vancouver Sun) gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Factory Dairies Invade Wisconsin (Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel) gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; White Poison: The Horrors of Milk(Times of India) gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; " There's no reason to drink cow's milk at any time in your gt; gt; life. gt; gt; gt; gt; It gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; was designed for calves, not humans, and we should all stop gt; gt; gt; gt; drinking gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; it today. " gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; -Dr. Frank A. Oski gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Former Director of Pediatrics, Johns Hopkins University gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; 501 Front St., Norfolk, VA 23510; 757-622-PETA gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; MilkSucks.comLiving Dairy-FreeFind Out MoreFree Vegetarian gt; gt; gt; gt; Starter gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; PackVegNow.com gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; gt; Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 Lesley I do not condone what the other woman did, but I note it is not the first time you have been 'attacked'. I think maybe you are more forceful in your speech than you realise. You have no real right to expect someone to stop doing something that is legal. If smoke is annoying for you then it is up to you to keep away from the people who are smoking. As I said before, it would be most definitely wrong for you to attack anyone, and you would stand a good chance of being seriously hurt yourself. Jo - Lesley Dove Tuesday, August 20, 2002 12:22 PM RE: Re: I agree but I've never punched a smoker for smoking, but I was punched for simply complaining about it, how can I be the one who is way over the top? It was hardly reasonable that I was punched, I don't think they needed much provocation, in fact the woman who punched me was not the one I had argued with, it was a man who got her to hit me, he was the one I complained to for smoking. They are the people who need some anger management not me Cathy, can you not see that? What they did was over the top. It won't happen again if I learn some self-defence because I will be able to fight back before the first punch hits me, asthma attakcs permitting of course. Lesley cathyjupp [cj]20 August 2002 11:23 Subject: Re: I agree butLesley - I'm serious here - go to your doctor and ask for counselling or some other form of anger management assistance. You are in serious danger of harming yourself (or someone else). You have already been punched in the face once and I can see it happening again, or worse, if you don't do something to manage your attitude. It is well over the top. You see yourself as taking reasonable steps to protect yourself, but I think your attitude has gone *way* past that. Cathy, "Lesley Dove" <Lesley@v...> wrote:> > I'm getting almost past the stage of being peaceful with smokers, I'm even> considering getting a pepper/tear gas spray and to hell with the fact that> it is illegal in the UK (we have very little right to protect ourselves> effectively from violent antisocial freaks in this country), to spray on> smokers when they make me ill and are refusing to stub it out. If they are> unreasonable, it's just a matter of self-defence, not attack as I see it> since they are hurting me. They need to know the pain they are causing and> maybe mace would just give them some idea of how second hand smoke> inhalation feels to a sensitive person.> > I am considering a violent solution to the assault on my lungs in future> because I was punched in the face for complaining about a smoker the other> day so no more Mrs Peaceful Dove after the way I have suffered. I wouldn't> carry a gun or a knife though, that would be taking it too far! I had a bad> headache and blurred vision from being punched and had a bruised eyebrow and> forehead. I was feeling so ill for days because the smoke had already caused> me breathing trouble when I complained so I was wheezy for ages. My attacker> has not been caught, the police are pretty hopeless. I will of course press> charges if she is caught. Considering the circumstances that I was sitting> down struggling to breathe when I was punched it was a particularly cowardly> and callous attack. It was obvious to this woman that I was not in a> position to fight back. I ended up behaving badly on the other vegan> group just very soon after the attack and I think I was in a slightly> confused state at the time, so that the balance of my mind was disturbed,> but I still got banned from the group.> > Tobacco is not really an addiction, I don't believe in it as an addiction> anyway. I think smokers just say that as an excuse, but it's all in their> minds and it's just a habit that people choose to do because some people> like to annoy other people, that is why youngsters start usually, to rebel> and annoy someone, that is the true nature of the smoker. My dad and my gran> had no problem quitting when I was young, and there were no nicotine chewing> gums or patches then (people are spoilt these days!), they just quit on> their own because they realised it was a deadly habit. I was proud of them> both. Nowadays smokers whinge about how hard it is to quit, I'm sick of> that, they don't know how lucky they are to get so much help on the health> service, and to get their self-inflicted illnesses treated. I also don't> think people like George Best and Larry Hagman (alcohol abusers) deserve new> livers, if they don't care about their own that they are born with, and> drink as much as thery did they should be low priority for transplants, I> think, after children and people who could not have prevented their illness.> The innocent victims should be helped more, the woman who hit me had most> likely been drinking anyway, so much mindless violence is alcohol related,> that has innocent victims too.> > I'm sorry that dairy made you ill, I'm glad it didn't affect me at all that> way since I was already suffering from the smoke, but I guess we all have> our own unique set of sensitivities and allergies. I can eat anything which> most people class as food without any trouble, even as a meat-eater I never> had constipation or any food allergies. I just choose veganism on ethical> grounds.> > I think a food allergy would be easier to manage than a tobacco smoke> allergy because many people think I am faking it. That is hard to handle.> I've heard of someone else whose doctor said he was more likely allergic to> cats or mold, when he complained that tobacco smoke affected him badly, I> don't know why doctors should be so sceptical about this problem and try to> blame other things.> > I even got accused behind my back of being "unsociable" in one animal rights> group because I would not go in the smoky pub after protests with them, how> unfair is that? They knew I couldn't bear being around smoke, and were not> very understanding of my sensitivity.> It's very inconsistent that they were against making animals smoke in lab> experimenrts but wanted me to be forced to breathe in secondary smoke as a> prerequisite to being a fully accepted one of their crowd. I guess social> coercion to accept something damaging and unhealthy is OK with some AR> people, because it's not actual force. I don't see it as the right way to> treat one of your supposed friends.> > Lesley> > > B. B. [ibyza2001@h...]> 19 August 2002 18:35> > I agree but> > > I agree fully that we can not go to a demo. and smoke, true!> > But many of us have been sick on dairy, egg and milk (I had no smokers> around luckily in that remote place I lived in in that times)> > This can be fully demonstrated too, so first danger tabacoo OK> > 2nd meet> > 3rd dairy & eggs> > But I guess it depends on individuals' reaction and on beeing coherent,> LET'S EVOLUTE & PUT A PECEFUL END TO SMOKE ADDICTION> > > > >"Lesley Dove"> >> >To:> >RE: Re: milk sucksssssssss> >Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:26:19 +0100> >> >> >Is it worth AR people smoking though if the smokers on demos and marches> put> >people who are sensitive like me off going? It makes me so ill, that I am> >considering not going on a march again if I have to be surrounded by> >cigarette smoke, I felt very sick on the demo in London and after outside> >the pub, some of it might have been the car fumes in London but> experience> >has taught me that tobacco smoke affects me worse! I'm nmo use to anyone> >I believe demos and protests for the animals should be strictly> non-smoking> >affairs, it creates a very bad impression on the public to have people> >smoking. We have to present a nice clean living image.> >> >Dairy cows have no reason to feel let down by me, I am an ethical vegan> and> >will always promote veganism on animal rights grounds but I will not make> >what I believe to be false claims about giving up dairy leading to> improved> >health and less mucus for instance, because in my experience it made no> >difference to my health except mentally to my conscience and peace of> mind.> >My mucus and chest and head problems remained until I was able to live> away> >from second hand smoke.> >> >Lesley> >> > > > cathyjupp [cj@r...]> > 19 August 2002 13:29> > > > Re: milk sucksssssssss> >> >> >> >> > BUT I will> > > speak out when I see the vegan movement undermining anti-tobacco> > campaigning> > > by overstating the role of dairy in cancers.> >> > That would be overstating IN YOUR OPINION, would it? I'm sure that> > dairy cows everywhere would like to thank you.> >> > Their veganism will not protect them> > > from the harm they are doing to themselves.> > >> >> > The only vegans I know personally aren't vegan for their health, but> > for the animals' (I know a lot of Americals are, and some British of> > course - I just haven't met any personally). I don't think that> > anyone would reasonably argue that smoking was not bad for them - but> > some people think it worth it. Veganism has little or nothing to do> > with it.> >> > Is this going to turn into another anti-smoking forum? Shall I leave> > now?> >> > Cathy> >> > ps Hallo everyone who knows me from before. Been lurking for a> > while to see how everyone is and what's going on here - never> > intended to post because I spend far too much time at the lists when> > I get going, but you know how it is sometimes........> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > > > > ibizkus [ibyza2001@h...]> > > 19 August 2002 11:43> > > > > > milk sucksssssssss> > >> > >> > >> > > Got... Breast Cancer? Prostate Cancer? Crohn's Disease? Heart> > > Disease Sick Kids? Osteoporosis Fat? Veal? Fat? Zits? Gas? Mucus?> > > Beer?> > >> > >> > > Click here for the truth about dairy products and strong bones.> > >> > > MILK SUCKS...> > > FOR THE ANIMALS:> > > Corporate-owned factories where cows are warehoused in huge sheds> > and> > > treated like milk machines have replaced most small family farms.> > > With genetic manipulation and intensive production technologies,> > it> > > is common for modern dairy cows to produce 100 pounds of milk a> > day—> > > 10 times more than they would produce in nature. To keep milk> > > production as high as possible, farmers artificially inseminate> > cows> > > every year. Growth hormones and unnatural milking schedules cause> > > dairy cows' udders to become painful and so heavy that they> > sometimes> > > drag on the ground, resulting in frequent infections and overuse> > of> > > antibiotics. Cows -- like all mammals -- make milk to feed their> > own> > > babies -- not humans.> > >> > >> > > Male calves, the "byproducts" of the dairy industry, endure 14> > to17> > > weeks of torment in veal crates so small that they can't even turn> > > around. Female calves often replace their old, worn-out mothers,> > or> > > are slaughtered soon after birth for the rennet in their stomachs> > (an> > > ingredient of most commercial cheeses). They are often kept in> > tiny> > > crates or tethered in stalls for the first few months of their> > lives,> > > only to grow up to become "milk machines" like their mothers.> > >> > >> > > FOR THE ENVIRONMENT:> > > Cow's milk is an inefficient food source. Cows, like humans,> > expend> > > the majority of their food intake simply leading their lives. It> > > takes a great deal of grain and other foodstuffs cycled through> > cows> > > to produce a small amount of milk. And not only is milk a waste of> > > energy and water, the production of milk is also a disastrous> > source> > > of water pollution. A dairy cow produces 120 pounds of waste every> > > day -- equal to that of two dozen people, but with no toilets,> > > sewers, or treatment plants.> > >> > > In Lancaster County, Pa., manure from dairy cows is destroying the> > > Chesapeake Bay, and in California, which produces one-fifth of the> > > country's total supply of milk, the manure from dairy farms has> > > poisoned vast expanses of underground water, rivers, and streams.> > In> > > the Central Valley of California, the cows produce as much> > excrement> > > as a city of 21 million people, and even a smallish farm of 200> > cows> > > will produce as much nitrogen as in the sewage from a community of> > > 5,000 to 10,000 people, according to a U.S. Senate report on> > animal> > > waste.> > >> > >> > >> > > FOR YOUR HEALTH:> > > Dairy products are a health hazard. They contain no fiber or> > complex> > > carbohydrates and are laden with saturated fat and cholesterol.> > They> > > are contaminated with cow's blood and pus and are frequently> > > contaminated with pesticides, hormones, and antibiotics. Dairy> > > products are linked to allergies, constipation, obesity, heart> > > disease, cancer, and other diseases.> > >> > > The late Dr. Benjamin Spock, America's leading authority on child> > > care, spoke out against feeding cow's milk to children, saying it> > can> > > cause anemia, allergies, and insulin-dependent diabetes and in the> > > long term, will set kids up for obesity and heart disease,> > America's> > > number one cause of death.> > >> > > And dairy products may actually cause osteoporosis, not prevent> > it,> > > since their high-protein content leaches calcium from the body.> > > Population studies, backed up by a groundbreaking Harvard study of> > > more than 75,000 nurses, suggest that drinking milk can actually> > > cause osteoporosis. Find out more by visiting our links page.> > >> > >> > >> > > WHAT YOU CAN DO:> > > According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the average> > American> > > consumes more than 550 pounds of dairy products annually, which> > is 40> > > percent of the bulk of the food we eat. Click here to see an> > > illustration of the "Food Pyramid" which is representative of> > actual> > > American eating habits.> > >> > > Give the bottle the boot! Instead, try delicious soy or rice milk,> > > soy cheese, Tofutti ice cream, and tofu sour cream and cream> > cheese.> > > All are widely available at health food stores and many> > supermarkets.> > > Click here for information on adopting a dairy-free diet.> > >> > >> > >> > > In The News> > >> > > Anit-milk ad 'a cheap point at the expense of Catholics' (The> > > Vancouver Sun)> > >> > > Factory Dairies Invade Wisconsin (Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel)> > >> > > White Poison: The Horrors of Milk(Times of India)> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > "There's no reason to drink cow's milk at any time in your life.> > It> > > was designed for calves, not humans, and we should all stop> > drinking> > > it today."> > > -Dr. Frank A. Oski> > > Former Director of Pediatrics, Johns Hopkins University> > >> > >> > >> > > People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals> > > 501 Front St., Norfolk, VA 23510; 757-622-PETA> > > MilkSucks.comLiving Dairy-FreeFind Out MoreFree Vegetarian> > Starter> > > PackVegNow.com> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 Cathy > I could > not bear on Saturday (live exports demo) to watch the video they were > showing of calves struggling in pain and terror. Why did you watch it? You know what happens - you don't need to make yourself miserable. You demonstrate etc. to stop these things, you don't need to punish yourself by watching the pain. And I agree that it would not be right to use Mace etc. BB Jo --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release 02/08/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 Nobody on this list, as far as I know. Jo and who is Mc Big or Edith ?????(sorry for my ignorance) ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release 02/08/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 The other person may snatch your spray and use it on you or your kids! Jo - Lesley Dove Tuesday, August 20, 2002 4:24 PM RE: Re: I agree but I am aware of these nasty people, this is exactly why I need to secure some means of self-protection, either a spray with something nasty that will disable an attacker or some form of martial arts training, which is frankly a lot of trouble and hard work so I would prefer a pepper spray. I think such a thing is very effective and not deadly like carrying a knife or gun myself, which I would personally never do even if I lived in the US. The danger is just there from these antisocial freaks who think that their bullying will be tolerated by decent people who are afraid of them. If someone hits back effectively it is OK I think, because the type of people who hurt me don't understand being politely reasoned with or even seeing someone getting ill and struggling to breathe. The smoking man even thought I was faking the breathing problem! You can't fake something like that, well I can't anyway. I am certainly not purposely putting myself in danger. On the evening I was hurt, I had already gone into the local off-licence/general store a few minutes earlier to get some soft drinks, and I had purposely waited a couple of minutes before going in because I spotted a man in there smoking while he was getting served, despite the no smoking sign clearly up at the counter. I didn't confront him because I was outside and decided I didn't want to say anything to the offending man as his smoke had not affected me directly, but I did advise the man serving that he might consider refusing to serve such rude people if the no smoking sign he had up was intended to be obeyed. I suppose you think women should not go out in the evening? They put themselves in danger and any woman who gets raped, well it must be her fault for putting herself in a dangerous place and SHE is the one who has to acknowledge that her behaviour was asking for it? Be careful the road you are going down, it's called blaming the victim. Maybe sometime you will be the victim of an unprovoked thumping (I hope that will not happen to you though), then you would perhaps feel the same about self-protection Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 Why can't you walk away? If it's not illegal to smoke wherever these people are smoking you can't ask them not to just because it makes you ill. So you'd end up in court, possibly in prison, and portrayed by the media as a loony vegan... Lesley Dove [Lesley]Tuesday, August 20, 2002 9:56 AM Subject: RE: I agree but I'm getting almost past the stage of being peaceful with smokers, I'm even considering getting a pepper/tear gas spray and to hell with the fact that it is illegal in the UK (we have very little right to protect ourselves effectively from violent antisocial freaks in this country), to spray on smokers when they make me ill and are refusing to stub it out. If they are unreasonable, it's just a matter of self-defence, not attack as I see it since they are hurting me. They need to know the pain they are causing and maybe mace would just give them some idea of how second hand smoke inhalation feels to a sensitive person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 Most likely been drinking? Yeah, bet she'd just had an abortion too. Lesley Dove [Lesley]Tuesday, August 20, 2002 9:56 AM Subject: RE: I agree but The innocent victims should be helped more, the woman who hit me had most likely been drinking anyway, so much mindless violence is alcohol related, that has innocent victims too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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