Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 Dear Lesly I think too you are "way out"I recomend you to read the biography of Gandhi and see the mouvie. Non-violence is the path; I think you should heal your hate and anger; heal your past, and present; we need union not war among us; I recomend you to read the exceptional books of Louise Hay "Heal your life" Regards >"cathyjupp" > > > Re: I agree but >Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:22:39 -0000 > >Lesley - I'm serious here - go to your doctor and ask for counselling >or some other form of anger management assistance. You are in >serious danger of harming yourself (or someone else). You have >already been punched in the face once and I can see it happening >again, or worse, if you don't do something to manage your attitude. >It is well over the top. You see yourself as taking reasonable steps >to protect yourself, but I think your attitude has gone *way* past >that. > >Cathy > > > > >, "Lesley Dove" wrote: > > > > I'm getting almost past the stage of being peaceful with smokers, >I'm even > > considering getting a pepper/tear gas spray and to hell with the >fact that > > it is illegal in the UK (we have very little right to protect >ourselves > > effectively from violent antisocial freaks in this country), to >spray on > > smokers when they make me ill and are refusing to stub it out. If >they are > > unreasonable, it's just a matter of self-defence, not attack as I >see it > > since they are hurting me. They need to know the pain they are >causing and > > maybe mace would just give them some idea of how second hand smoke > > inhalation feels to a sensitive person. > > > > I am considering a violent solution to the assault on my lungs in >future > > because I was punched in the face for complaining about a smoker >the other > > day so no more Mrs Peaceful Dove after the way I have suffered. I >wouldn't > > carry a gun or a knife though, that would be taking it too far! I >had a bad > > headache and blurred vision from being punched and had a bruised >eyebrow and > > forehead. I was feeling so ill for days because the smoke had >already caused > > me breathing trouble when I complained so I was wheezy for ages. My >attacker > > has not been caught, the police are pretty hopeless. I will of >course press > > charges if she is caught. Considering the circumstances that I was >sitting > > down struggling to breathe when I was punched it was a particularly >cowardly > > and callous attack. It was obvious to this woman that I was not in a > > position to fight back. I ended up behaving badly on the other > vegan > > group just very soon after the attack and I think I was in a >slightly > > confused state at the time, so that the balance of my mind was >disturbed, > > but I still got banned from the group. > > > > Tobacco is not really an addiction, I don't believe in it as an >addiction > > anyway. I think smokers just say that as an excuse, but it's all in >their > > minds and it's just a habit that people choose to do because some >people > > like to annoy other people, that is why youngsters start usually, >to rebel > > and annoy someone, that is the true nature of the smoker. My dad >and my gran > > had no problem quitting when I was young, and there were no >nicotine chewing > > gums or patches then (people are spoilt these days!), they just >quit on > > their own because they realised it was a deadly habit. I was proud >of them > > both. Nowadays smokers whinge about how hard it is to quit, I'm >sick of > > that, they don't know how lucky they are to get so much help on the >health > > service, and to get their self-inflicted illnesses treated. I also >don't > > think people like George Best and Larry Hagman (alcohol abusers) >deserve new > > livers, if they don't care about their own that they are born with, >and > > drink as much as thery did they should be low priority for >transplants, I > > think, after children and people who could not have prevented their >illness. > > The innocent victims should be helped more, the woman who hit me >had most > > likely been drinking anyway, so much mindless violence is alcohol >related, > > that has innocent victims too. > > > > I'm sorry that dairy made you ill, I'm glad it didn't affect me at >all that > > way since I was already suffering from the smoke, but I guess we >all have > > our own unique set of sensitivities and allergies. I can eat >anything which > > most people class as food without any trouble, even as a meat-eater >I never > > had constipation or any food allergies. I just choose veganism on >ethical > > grounds. > > > > I think a food allergy would be easier to manage than a tobacco >smoke > > allergy because many people think I am faking it. That is hard to >handle. > > I've heard of someone else whose doctor said he was more likely >allergic to > > cats or mold, when he complained that tobacco smoke affected him >badly, I > > don't know why doctors should be so sceptical about this problem >and try to > > blame other things. > > > > I even got accused behind my back of being "unsociable" in one >animal rights > > group because I would not go in the smoky pub after protests with >them, how > > unfair is that? They knew I couldn't bear being around smoke, and >were not > > very understanding of my sensitivity. > > It's very inconsistent that they were against making animals smoke >in lab > > experimenrts but wanted me to be forced to breathe in secondary >smoke as a > > prerequisite to being a fully accepted one of their crowd. I guess >social > > coercion to accept something damaging and unhealthy is OK with some >AR > > people, because it's not actual force. I don't see it as the right >way to > > treat one of your supposed friends. > > > > Lesley > > > > > > B. B. [ibyza2001@h...] > > 19 August 2002 18:35 > > > > I agree but > > > > > > I agree fully that we can not go to a demo. and smoke, true! > > > > But many of us have been sick on dairy, egg and milk (I had no >smokers > > around luckily in that remote place I lived in in that times) > > > > This can be fully demonstrated too, so first danger tabacoo OK > > > > 2nd meet > > > > 3rd dairy & eggs > > > > But I guess it depends on individuals' reaction and on beeing >coherent, > > LET'S EVOLUTE & PUT A PECEFUL END TO SMOKE ADDICTION > > > > > > > > >"Lesley Dove" > > > > > >> > >RE: Re: milk sucksssssssss > > >Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:26:19 +0100 > > > > > > > > >Is it worth AR people smoking though if the smokers on demos and >marches > > put > > >people who are sensitive like me off going? It makes me so ill, >that I am > > >considering not going on a march again if I have to be >surrounded by > > >cigarette smoke, I felt very sick on the demo in London and >after outside > > >the pub, some of it might have been the car fumes in London but > > experience > > >has taught me that tobacco smoke affects me worse! I'm nmo use >to anyone > > >I believe demos and protests for the animals should be strictly > > non-smoking > > >affairs, it creates a very bad impression on the public to have >people > > >smoking. We have to present a nice clean living image. > > > > > >Dairy cows have no reason to feel let down by me, I am an >ethical vegan > > and > > >will always promote veganism on animal rights grounds but I will >not make > > >what I believe to be false claims about giving up dairy leading >to > > improved > > >health and less mucus for instance, because in my experience it >made no > > >difference to my health except mentally to my conscience and >peace of > > mind. > > >My mucus and chest and head problems remained until I was able >to live > > away > > >from second hand smoke. > > > > > >Lesley > > > > > > > > > cathyjupp [cj@r...] > > > 19 August 2002 13:29 > > > > > > Re: milk sucksssssssss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BUT I will > > > > speak out when I see the vegan movement undermining anti- >tobacco > > > campaigning > > > > by overstating the role of dairy in cancers. > > > > > > That would be overstating IN YOUR OPINION, would it? I'm sure >that > > > dairy cows everywhere would like to thank you. > > > > > > Their veganism will not protect them > > > > from the harm they are doing to themselves. > > > > > > > > > > The only vegans I know personally aren't vegan for their >health, but > > > for the animals' (I know a lot of Americals are, and some >British of > > > course - I just haven't met any personally). I don't think that > > > anyone would reasonably argue that smoking was not bad for >them - but > > > some people think it worth it. Veganism has little or nothing >to do > > > with it. > > > > > > Is this going to turn into another anti-smoking forum? Shall I >leave > > > now? > > > > > > Cathy > > > > > > ps Hallo everyone who knows me from before. Been lurking for a > > > while to see how everyone is and what's going on here - never > > > intended to post because I spend far too much time at the lists >when > > > I get going, but you know how it is sometimes........ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ibizkus [ibyza2001@h...] > > > > 19 August 2002 11:43 > > > > > > > > milk sucksssssssss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Got... Breast Cancer? Prostate Cancer? Crohn's Disease? Heart > > > > Disease Sick Kids? Osteoporosis Fat? Veal? Fat? Zits? Gas? >Mucus? > > > > Beer? > > > > > > > > > > > > Click here for the truth about dairy products and strong >bones. > > > > > > > > MILK SUCKS... > > > > FOR THE ANIMALS: > > > > Corporate-owned factories where cows are warehoused in huge >sheds > > > and > > > > treated like milk machines have replaced most small family >farms. > > > > With genetic manipulation and intensive production >technologies, > > > it > > > > is common for modern dairy cows to produce 100 pounds of milk >a > > > day— > > > > 10 times more than they would produce in nature. To keep milk > > > > production as high as possible, farmers artificially >inseminate > > > cows > > > > every year. Growth hormones and unnatural milking schedules >cause > > > > dairy cows' udders to become painful and so heavy that they > > > sometimes > > > > drag on the ground, resulting in frequent infections and >overuse > > > of > > > > antibiotics. Cows -- like all mammals -- make milk to feed >their > > > own > > > > babies -- not humans. > > > > > > > > > > > > Male calves, the "byproducts" of the dairy industry, endure 14 > > > to17 > > > > weeks of torment in veal crates so small that they can't even >turn > > > > around. Female calves often replace their old, worn-out >mothers, > > > or > > > > are slaughtered soon after birth for the rennet in their >stomachs > > > (an > > > > ingredient of most commercial cheeses). They are often kept in > > > tiny > > > > crates or tethered in stalls for the first few months of their > > > lives, > > > > only to grow up to become "milk machines" like their mothers. > > > > > > > > > > > > FOR THE ENVIRONMENT: > > > > Cow's milk is an inefficient food source. Cows, like humans, > > > expend > > > > the majority of their food intake simply leading their lives. >It > > > > takes a great deal of grain and other foodstuffs cycled >through > > > cows > > > > to produce a small amount of milk. And not only is milk a >waste of > > > > energy and water, the production of milk is also a disastrous > > > source > > > > of water pollution. A dairy cow produces 120 pounds of waste >every > > > > day -- equal to that of two dozen people, but with no toilets, > > > > sewers, or treatment plants. > > > > > > > > In Lancaster County, Pa., manure from dairy cows is >destroying the > > > > Chesapeake Bay, and in California, which produces one-fifth >of the > > > > country's total supply of milk, the manure from dairy farms >has > > > > poisoned vast expanses of underground water, rivers, and >streams. > > > In > > > > the Central Valley of California, the cows produce as much > > > excrement > > > > as a city of 21 million people, and even a smallish farm of >200 > > > cows > > > > will produce as much nitrogen as in the sewage from a >community of > > > > 5,000 to 10,000 people, according to a U.S. Senate report on > > > animal > > > > waste. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > FOR YOUR HEALTH: > > > > Dairy products are a health hazard. They contain no fiber or > > > complex > > > > carbohydrates and are laden with saturated fat and >cholesterol. > > > They > > > > are contaminated with cow's blood and pus and are frequently > > > > contaminated with pesticides, hormones, and antibiotics. Dairy > > > > products are linked to allergies, constipation, obesity, heart > > > > disease, cancer, and other diseases. > > > > > > > > The late Dr. Benjamin Spock, America's leading authority on >child > > > > care, spoke out against feeding cow's milk to children, >saying it > > > can > > > > cause anemia, allergies, and insulin-dependent diabetes and >in the > > > > long term, will set kids up for obesity and heart disease, > > > America's > > > > number one cause of death. > > > > > > > > And dairy products may actually cause osteoporosis, not >prevent > > > it, > > > > since their high-protein content leaches calcium from the >body. > > > > Population studies, backed up by a groundbreaking Harvard >study of > > > > more than 75,000 nurses, suggest that drinking milk can >actually > > > > cause osteoporosis. Find out more by visiting our links page. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WHAT YOU CAN DO: > > > > According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the average > > > American > > > > consumes more than 550 pounds of dairy products annually, >which > > > is 40 > > > > percent of the bulk of the food we eat. Click here to see an > > > > illustration of the "Food Pyramid" which is representative of > > > actual > > > > American eating habits. > > > > > > > > Give the bottle the boot! Instead, try delicious soy or rice >milk, > > > > soy cheese, Tofutti ice cream, and tofu sour cream and cream > > > cheese. > > > > All are widely available at health food stores and many > > > supermarkets. > > > > Click here for information on adopting a dairy-free diet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In The News > > > > > > > > Anit-milk ad 'a cheap point at the expense of Catholics' (The > > > > Vancouver Sun) > > > > > > > > Factory Dairies Invade Wisconsin (Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel) > > > > > > > > White Poison: The Horrors of Milk(Times of India) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "There's no reason to drink cow's milk at any time in your >life. > > > It > > > > was designed for calves, not humans, and we should all stop > > > drinking > > > > it today." > > > > -Dr. Frank A. Oski > > > > Former Director of Pediatrics, Johns Hopkins University > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals > > > > 501 Front St., Norfolk, VA 23510; 757-622-PETA > > > > MilkSucks.comLiving Dairy-FreeFind Out MoreFree Vegetarian > > > Starter > > > > PackVegNow.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 I was the victim, I am only interested in taking steps to defend myself, not to make unprovoked attacks on people. I am even considering learning some form of self-defence. You and Cathy are blaming the victim here, very nice. The attack on me was unprovoked, the person attacking me was much more full of anger than I was. She was the one who was way over the top, are you both saying that freaks like her should get away with it? Lesley B. B. [ibyza2001]20 August 2002 11:31 Subject: anger control Dear Lesly I think too you are "way out"I recomend you to read the biography of Gandhi and see the mouvie. Non-violence is the path; I think you should heal your hate and anger; heal your past, and present; we need union not war among us; I recomend you to read the exceptional books of Louise Hay "Heal your life" Regards >"cathyjupp" > > > Re: I agree but >Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:22:39 -0000 > >Lesley - I'm serious here - go to your doctor and ask for counselling >or some other form of anger management assistance. You are in >serious danger of harming yourself (or someone else). You have >already been punched in the face once and I can see it happening >again, or worse, if you don't do something to manage your attitude. >It is well over the top. You see yourself as taking reasonable steps >to protect yourself, but I think your attitude has gone *way* past >that. > >Cathy > > > > >, "Lesley Dove" wrote: > > > > I'm getting almost past the stage of being peaceful with smokers, >I'm even > > considering getting a pepper/tear gas spray and to hell with the >fact that > > it is illegal in the UK (we have very little right to protect >ourselves > > effectively from violent antisocial freaks in this country), to >spray on > > smokers when they make me ill and are refusing to stub it out. If >they are > > unreasonable, it's just a matter of self-defence, not attack as I >see it > > since they are hurting me. They need to know the pain they are >causing and > > maybe mace would just give them some idea of how second hand smoke > > inhalation feels to a sensitive person. > > > > I am considering a violent solution to the assault on my lungs in >future > > because I was punched in the face for complaining about a smoker >the other > > day so no more Mrs Peaceful Dove after the way I have suffered. I >wouldn't > > carry a gun or a knife though, that would be taking it too far! I >had a bad > > headache and blurred vision from being punched and had a bruised >eyebrow and > > forehead. I was feeling so ill for days because the smoke had >already caused > > me breathing trouble when I complained so I was wheezy for ages. My >attacker > > has not been caught, the police are pretty hopeless. I will of >course press > > charges if she is caught. Considering the circumstances that I was >sitting > > down struggling to breathe when I was punched it was a particularly >cowardly > > and callous attack. It was obvious to this woman that I was not in a > > position to fight back. I ended up behaving badly on the other > vegan > > group just very soon after the attack and I think I was in a >slightly > > confused state at the time, so that the balance of my mind was >disturbed, > > but I still got banned from the group. > > > > Tobacco is not really an addiction, I don't believe in it as an >addiction > > anyway. I think smokers just say that as an excuse, but it's all in >their > > minds and it's just a habit that people choose to do because some >people > > like to annoy other people, that is why youngsters start usually, >to rebel > > and annoy someone, that is the true nature of the smoker. My dad >and my gran > > had no problem quitting when I was young, and there were no >nicotine chewing > > gums or patches then (people are spoilt these days!), they just >quit on > > their own because they realised it was a deadly habit. I was proud >of them > > both. Nowadays smokers whinge about how hard it is to quit, I'm >sick of > > that, they don't know how lucky they are to get so much help on the >health > > service, and to get their self-inflicted illnesses treated. I also >don't > > think people like George Best and Larry Hagman (alcohol abusers) >deserve new > > livers, if they don't care about their own that they are born with, >and > > drink as much as thery did they should be low priority for >transplants, I > > think, after children and people who could not have prevented their >illness. > > The innocent victims should be helped more, the woman who hit me >had most > > likely been drinking anyway, so much mindless violence is alcohol >related, > > that has innocent victims too. > > > > I'm sorry that dairy made you ill, I'm glad it didn't affect me at >all that > > way since I was already suffering from the smoke, but I guess we >all have > > our own unique set of sensitivities and allergies. I can eat >anything which > > most people class as food without any trouble, even as a meat-eater >I never > > had constipation or any food allergies. I just choose veganism on >ethical > > grounds. > > > > I think a food allergy would be easier to manage than a tobacco >smoke > > allergy because many people think I am faking it. That is hard to >handle. > > I've heard of someone else whose doctor said he was more likely >allergic to > > cats or mold, when he complained that tobacco smoke affected him >badly, I > > don't know why doctors should be so sceptical about this problem >and try to > > blame other things. > > > > I even got accused behind my back of being "unsociable" in one >animal rights > > group because I would not go in the smoky pub after protests with >them, how > > unfair is that? They knew I couldn't bear being around smoke, and >were not > > very understanding of my sensitivity. > > It's very inconsistent that they were against making animals smoke >in lab > > experimenrts but wanted me to be forced to breathe in secondary >smoke as a > > prerequisite to being a fully accepted one of their crowd. I guess >social > > coercion to accept something damaging and unhealthy is OK with some >AR > > people, because it's not actual force. I don't see it as the right >way to > > treat one of your supposed friends. > > > > Lesley > > > > > > B. B. [ibyza2001@h...] > > 19 August 2002 18:35 > > > > I agree but > > > > > > I agree fully that we can not go to a demo. and smoke, true! > > > > But many of us have been sick on dairy, egg and milk (I had no >smokers > > around luckily in that remote place I lived in in that times) > > > > This can be fully demonstrated too, so first danger tabacoo OK > > > > 2nd meet > > > > 3rd dairy & eggs > > > > But I guess it depends on individuals' reaction and on beeing >coherent, > > LET'S EVOLUTE & PUT A PECEFUL END TO SMOKE ADDICTION > > > > > > > > >"Lesley Dove" > > > > > >> > >RE: Re: milk sucksssssssss > > >Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:26:19 +0100 > > > > > > > > >Is it worth AR people smoking though if the smokers on demos and >marches > > put > > >people who are sensitive like me off going? It makes me so ill, >that I am > > >considering not going on a march again if I have to be >surrounded by > > >cigarette smoke, I felt very sick on the demo in London and >after outside > > >the pub, some of it might have been the car fumes in London but > > experience > > >has taught me that tobacco smoke affects me worse! I'm nmo use >to anyone > > >I believe demos and protests for the animals should be strictly > > non-smoking > > >affairs, it creates a very bad impression on the public to have >people > > >smoking. We have to present a nice clean living image. > > > > > >Dairy cows have no reason to feel let down by me, I am an >ethical vegan > > and > > >will always promote veganism on animal rights grounds but I will >not make > > >what I believe to be false claims about giving up dairy leading >to > > improved > > >health and less mucus for instance, because in my experience it >made no > > >difference to my health except mentally to my conscience and >peace of > > mind. > > >My mucus and chest and head problems remained until I was able >to live > > away > > >from second hand smoke. > > > > > >Lesley > > > > > > > > > cathyjupp [cj@r...] > > > 19 August 2002 13:29 > > > > > > Re: milk sucksssssssss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BUT I will > > > > speak out when I see the vegan movement undermining anti- >tobacco > > > campaigning > > > > by overstating the role of dairy in cancers. > > > > > > That would be overstating IN YOUR OPINION, would it? I'm sure >that > > > dairy cows everywhere would like to thank you. > > > > > > Their veganism will not protect them > > > > from the harm they are doing to themselves. > > > > > > > > > > The only vegans I know personally aren't vegan for their >health, but > > > for the animals' (I know a lot of Americals are, and some >British of > > > course - I just haven't met any personally). I don't think that > > > anyone would reasonably argue that smoking was not bad for >them - but > > > some people think it worth it. Veganism has little or nothing >to do > > > with it. > > > > > > Is this going to turn into another anti-smoking forum? Shall I >leave > > > now? > > > > > > Cathy > > > > > > ps Hallo everyone who knows me from before. Been lurking for a > > > while to see how everyone is and what's going on here - never > > > intended to post because I spend far too much time at the lists >when > > > I get going, but you know how it is sometimes........ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ibizkus [ibyza2001@h...] > > > > 19 August 2002 11:43 > > > > > > > > milk sucksssssssss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Got... Breast Cancer? Prostate Cancer? Crohn's Disease? Heart > > > > Disease Sick Kids? Osteoporosis Fat? Veal? Fat? Zits? Gas? >Mucus? > > > > Beer? > > > > > > > > > > > > Click here for the truth about dairy products and strong >bones. > > > > > > > > MILK SUCKS... > > > > FOR THE ANIMALS: > > > > Corporate-owned factories where cows are warehoused in huge >sheds > > > and > > > > treated like milk machines have replaced most small family >farms. > > > > With genetic manipulation and intensive production >technologies, > > > it > > > > is common for modern dairy cows to produce 100 pounds of milk >a > > > day— > > > > 10 times more than they would produce in nature. To keep milk > > > > production as high as possible, farmers artificially >inseminate > > > cows > > > > every year. Growth hormones and unnatural milking schedules >cause > > > > dairy cows' udders to become painful and so heavy that they > > > sometimes > > > > drag on the ground, resulting in frequent infections and >overuse > > > of > > > > antibiotics. Cows -- like all mammals -- make milk to feed >their > > > own > > > > babies -- not humans. > > > > > > > > > > > > Male calves, the "byproducts" of the dairy industry, endure 14 > > > to17 > > > > weeks of torment in veal crates so small that they can't even >turn > > > > around. Female calves often replace their old, worn-out >mothers, > > > or > > > > are slaughtered soon after birth for the rennet in their >stomachs > > > (an > > > > ingredient of most commercial cheeses). They are often kept in > > > tiny > > > > crates or tethered in stalls for the first few months of their > > > lives, > > > > only to grow up to become "milk machines" like their mothers. > > > > > > > > > > > > FOR THE ENVIRONMENT: > > > > Cow's milk is an inefficient food source. Cows, like humans, > > > expend > > > > the majority of their food intake simply leading their lives. >It > > > > takes a great deal of grain and other foodstuffs cycled >through > > > cows > > > > to produce a small amount of milk. And not only is milk a >waste of > > > > energy and water, the production of milk is also a disastrous > > > source > > > > of water pollution. A dairy cow produces 120 pounds of waste >every > > > > day -- equal to that of two dozen people, but with no toilets, > > > > sewers, or treatment plants. > > > > > > > > In Lancaster County, Pa., manure from dairy cows is >destroying the > > > > Chesapeake Bay, and in California, which produces one-fifth >of the > > > > country's total supply of milk, the manure from dairy farms >has > > > > poisoned vast expanses of underground water, rivers, and >streams. > > > In > > > > the Central Valley of California, the cows produce as much > > > excrement > > > > as a city of 21 million people, and even a smallish farm of >200 > > > cows > > > > will produce as much nitrogen as in the sewage from a >community of > > > > 5,000 to 10,000 people, according to a U.S. Senate report on > > > animal > > > > waste. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > FOR YOUR HEALTH: > > > > Dairy products are a health hazard. They contain no fiber or > > > complex > > > > carbohydrates and are laden with saturated fat and >cholesterol. > > > They > > > > are contaminated with cow's blood and pus and are frequently > > > > contaminated with pesticides, hormones, and antibiotics. Dairy > > > > products are linked to allergies, constipation, obesity, heart > > > > disease, cancer, and other diseases. > > > > > > > > The late Dr. Benjamin Spock, America's leading authority on >child > > > > care, spoke out against feeding cow's milk to children, >saying it > > > can > > > > cause anemia, allergies, and insulin-dependent diabetes and >in the > > > > long term, will set kids up for obesity and heart disease, > > > America's > > > > number one cause of death. > > > > > > > > And dairy products may actually cause osteoporosis, not >prevent > > > it, > > > > since their high-protein content leaches calcium from the >body. > > > > Population studies, backed up by a groundbreaking Harvard >study of > > > > more than 75,000 nurses, suggest that drinking milk can >actually > > > > cause osteoporosis. Find out more by visiting our links page. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WHAT YOU CAN DO: > > > > According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the average > > > American > > > > consumes more than 550 pounds of dairy products annually, >which > > > is 40 > > > > percent of the bulk of the food we eat. Click here to see an > > > > illustration of the "Food Pyramid" which is representative of > > > actual > > > > American eating habits. > > > > > > > > Give the bottle the boot! Instead, try delicious soy or rice >milk, > > > > soy cheese, Tofutti ice cream, and tofu sour cream and cream > > > cheese. > > > > All are widely available at health food stores and many > > > supermarkets. > > > > Click here for information on adopting a dairy-free diet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In The News > > > > > > > > Anit-milk ad 'a cheap point at the expense of Catholics' (The > > > > Vancouver Sun) > > > > > > > > Factory Dairies Invade Wisconsin (Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel) > > > > > > > > White Poison: The Horrors of Milk(Times of India) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "There's no reason to drink cow's milk at any time in your >life. > > > It > > > > was designed for calves, not humans, and we should all stop > > > drinking > > > > it today." > > > > -Dr. Frank A. Oski > > > > Former Director of Pediatrics, Johns Hopkins University > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals > > > > 501 Front St., Norfolk, VA 23510; 757-622-PETA > > > > MilkSucks.comLiving Dairy-FreeFind Out MoreFree Vegetarian > > > Starter > > > > PackVegNow.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 *sigh* lesley.... you come across as a person with a lot of anger and now you are talking about carrying pepper spray and spraying smokers...you didn't mention anything about violent smokers, just smokers... i don't believe that is really gonna make anyone not smoke..tho, you will probably get arrested, and that certainly will not make you er anyone else happy.... i am sorry you got punched may i ask, exactly wot did you say to this woman? " Lesley Dove " <Lesley wrote: > >I was the victim, I am only interested in taking steps to defend myself, not >to make unprovoked attacks on people. I am even considering learning some >form of self-defence. > >You and Cathy are blaming the victim here, very nice. The attack on me was >unprovoked, the person attacking me was much more full of anger than I was. >She was the one who was way over the top, are you both saying that freaks >like her should get away with it? > >Lesley > > > B. B. [ibyza2001] > 20 August 2002 11:31 > > anger control > > > Dear Lesly I think too you are " way out " I recomend you to read the >biography of Gandhi and see the mouvie. > > Non-violence is the path; I think you should heal your hate and anger; >heal your past, and present; we need union not war among us; I recomend you >to read the exceptional books of Louise Hay " Heal your life " > > Regards > > > > > " cathyjupp " > > > > > > Re: I agree but > >Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:22:39 -0000 > > > >Lesley - I'm serious here - go to your doctor and ask for counselling > >or some other form of anger management assistance. You are in > >serious danger of harming yourself (or someone else). You have > >already been punched in the face once and I can see it happening > >again, or worse, if you don't do something to manage your attitude. > >It is well over the top. You see yourself as taking reasonable steps > >to protect yourself, but I think your attitude has gone *way* past > >that. > > > >Cathy > > > > > > > > > >, " Lesley Dove " wrote: > > > > > > I'm getting almost past the stage of being peaceful with smokers, > >I'm even > > > considering getting a pepper/tear gas spray and to hell with the > >fact that > > > it is illegal in the UK (we have very little right to protect > >ourselves > > > effectively from violent antisocial freaks in this country), to > >spray on > > > smokers when they make me ill and are refusing to stub it out. If > >they are > > > unreasonable, it's just a matter of self-defence, not attack as I > >see it > > > since they are hurting me. They need to know the pain they are > >causing and > > > maybe mace would just give them some idea of how second hand smoke > > > inhalation feels to a sensitive person. > > > > > > I am considering a violent solution to the assault on my lungs in > >future > > > because I was punched in the face for complaining about a smoker > >the other > > > day so no more Mrs Peaceful Dove after the way I have suffered. I > >wouldn't > > > carry a gun or a knife though, that would be taking it too far! I > >had a bad > > > headache and blurred vision from being punched and had a bruised > >eyebrow and > > > forehead. I was feeling so ill for days because the smoke had > >already caused > > > me breathing trouble when I complained so I was wheezy for ages. My > >attacker > > > has not been caught, the police are pretty hopeless. I will of > >course press > > > charges if she is caught. Considering the circumstances that I was > >sitting > > > down struggling to breathe when I was punched it was a particularly > >cowardly > > > and callous attack. It was obvious to this woman that I was not in a > > > position to fight back. I ended up behaving badly on the other > > vegan > > > group just very soon after the attack and I think I was in a > >slightly > > > confused state at the time, so that the balance of my mind was > >disturbed, > > > but I still got banned from the group. > > > > > > Tobacco is not really an addiction, I don't believe in it as an > >addiction > > > anyway. I think smokers just say that as an excuse, but it's all in > >their > > > minds and it's just a habit that people choose to do because some > >people > > > like to annoy other people, that is why youngsters start usually, > >to rebel > > > and annoy someone, that is the true nature of the smoker. My dad > >and my gran > > > had no problem quitting when I was young, and there were no > >nicotine chewing > > > gums or patches then (people are spoilt these days!), they just > >quit on > > > their own because they realised it was a deadly habit. I was proud > >of them > > > both. Nowadays smokers whinge about how hard it is to quit, I'm > >sick of > > > that, they don't know how lucky they are to get so much help on the > >health > > > service, and to get their self-inflicted illnesses treated. I also > >don't > > > think people like George Best and Larry Hagman (alcohol abusers) > >deserve new > > > livers, if they don't care about their own that they are born with, > >and > > > drink as much as thery did they should be low priority for > >transplants, I > > > think, after children and people who could not have prevented their > >illness. > > > The innocent victims should be helped more, the woman who hit me > >had most > > > likely been drinking anyway, so much mindless violence is alcohol > >related, > > > that has innocent victims too. > > > > > > I'm sorry that dairy made you ill, I'm glad it didn't affect me at > >all that > > > way since I was already suffering from the smoke, but I guess we > >all have > > > our own unique set of sensitivities and allergies. I can eat > >anything which > > > most people class as food without any trouble, even as a meat-eater > >I never > > > had constipation or any food allergies. I just choose veganism on > >ethical > > > grounds. > > > > > > I think a food allergy would be easier to manage than a tobacco > >smoke > > > allergy because many people think I am faking it. That is hard to > >handle. > > > I've heard of someone else whose doctor said he was more likely > >allergic to > > > cats or mold, when he complained that tobacco smoke affected him > >badly, I > > > don't know why doctors should be so sceptical about this problem > >and try to > > > blame other things. > > > > > > I even got accused behind my back of being " unsociable " in one > >animal rights > > > group because I would not go in the smoky pub after protests with > >them, how > > > unfair is that? They knew I couldn't bear being around smoke, and > >were not > > > very understanding of my sensitivity. > > > It's very inconsistent that they were against making animals smoke > >in lab > > > experimenrts but wanted me to be forced to breathe in secondary > >smoke as a > > > prerequisite to being a fully accepted one of their crowd. I guess > >social > > > coercion to accept something damaging and unhealthy is OK with some > >AR > > > people, because it's not actual force. I don't see it as the right > >way to > > > treat one of your supposed friends. > > > > > > Lesley > > > > > > > > > B. B. [ibyza2001@h...] > > > 19 August 2002 18:35 > > > > > > I agree but > > > > > > > > > I agree fully that we can not go to a demo. and smoke, true! > > > > > > But many of us have been sick on dairy, egg and milk (I had no > >smokers > > > around luckily in that remote place I lived in in that times) > > > > > > This can be fully demonstrated too, so first danger tabacoo OK > > > > > > 2nd meet > > > > > > 3rd dairy & eggs > > > > > > But I guess it depends on individuals' reaction and on beeing > >coherent, > > > LET'S EVOLUTE & PUT A PECEFUL END TO SMOKE ADDICTION > > > > > > > > > > > > > " Lesley Dove " > > > > > > > >To: > > > >RE: Re: milk sucksssssssss > > > >Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:26:19 +0100 > > > > > > > > > > > >Is it worth AR people smoking though if the smokers on demos and > >marches > > > put > > > >people who are sensitive like me off going? It makes me so ill, > >that I am > > > >considering not going on a march again if I have to be > >surrounded by > > > >cigarette smoke, I felt very sick on the demo in London and > >after outside > > > >the pub, some of it might have been the car fumes in London but > > > experience > > > >has taught me that tobacco smoke affects me worse! I'm nmo use > >to anyone > > > >I believe demos and protests for the animals should be strictly > > > non-smoking > > > >affairs, it creates a very bad impression on the public to have > >people > > > >smoking. We have to present a nice clean living image. > > > > > > > >Dairy cows have no reason to feel let down by me, I am an > >ethical vegan > > > and > > > >will always promote veganism on animal rights grounds but I will > >not make > > > >what I believe to be false claims about giving up dairy leading > >to > > > improved > > > >health and less mucus for instance, because in my experience it > >made no > > > >difference to my health except mentally to my conscience and > >peace of > > > mind. > > > >My mucus and chest and head problems remained until I was able > >to live > > > away > > > >from second hand smoke. > > > > > > > >Lesley > > > > > > > > > > > > cathyjupp [cj@r...] > > > > 19 August 2002 13:29 > > > > > > > > Re: milk sucksssssssss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BUT I will > > > > > speak out when I see the vegan movement undermining anti- > >tobacco > > > > campaigning > > > > > by overstating the role of dairy in cancers. > > > > > > > > That would be overstating IN YOUR OPINION, would it? I'm sure > >that > > > > dairy cows everywhere would like to thank you. > > > > > > > > Their veganism will not protect them > > > > > from the harm they are doing to themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only vegans I know personally aren't vegan for their > >health, but > > > > for the animals' (I know a lot of Americals are, and some > >British of > > > > course - I just haven't met any personally). I don't think that > > > > anyone would reasonably argue that smoking was not bad for > >them - but > > > > some people think it worth it. Veganism has little or nothing > >to do > > > > with it. > > > > > > > > Is this going to turn into another anti-smoking forum? Shall I > >leave > > > > now? > > > > > > > > Cathy > > > > > > > > ps Hallo everyone who knows me from before. Been lurking for a > > > > while to see how everyone is and what's going on here - never > > > > intended to post because I spend far too much time at the lists > >when > > > > I get going, but you know how it is sometimes........ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ibizkus [ibyza2001@h...] > > > > > 19 August 2002 11:43 > > > > > > > > > > milk sucksssssssss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Got... Breast Cancer? Prostate Cancer? Crohn's Disease? Heart > > > > > Disease Sick Kids? Osteoporosis Fat? Veal? Fat? Zits? Gas? > >Mucus? > > > > > Beer? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Click here for the truth about dairy products and strong > >bones. > > > > > > > > > > MILK SUCKS... > > > > > FOR THE ANIMALS: > > > > > Corporate-owned factories where cows are warehoused in huge > >sheds > > > > and > > > > > treated like milk machines have replaced most small family > >farms. > > > > > With genetic manipulation and intensive production > >technologies, > > > > it > > > > > is common for modern dairy cows to produce 100 pounds of milk > >a > > > > day— > > > > > 10 times more than they would produce in nature. To keep milk > > > > > production as high as possible, farmers artificially > >inseminate > > > > cows > > > > > every year. Growth hormones and unnatural milking schedules > >cause > > > > > dairy cows' udders to become painful and so heavy that they > > > > sometimes > > > > > drag on the ground, resulting in frequent infections and > >overuse > > > > of > > > > > antibiotics. Cows -- like all mammals -- make milk to feed > >their > > > > own > > > > > babies -- not humans. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Male calves, the " byproducts " of the dairy industry, endure 14 > > > > to17 > > > > > weeks of torment in veal crates so small that they can't even > >turn > > > > > around. Female calves often replace their old, worn-out > >mothers, > > > > or > > > > > are slaughtered soon after birth for the rennet in their > >stomachs > > > > (an > > > > > ingredient of most commercial cheeses). They are often kept in > > > > tiny > > > > > crates or tethered in stalls for the first few months of their > > > > lives, > > > > > only to grow up to become " milk machines " like their mothers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > FOR THE ENVIRONMENT: > > > > > Cow's milk is an inefficient food source. Cows, like humans, > > > > expend > > > > > the majority of their food intake simply leading their lives. > >It > > > > > takes a great deal of grain and other foodstuffs cycled > >through > > > > cows > > > > > to produce a small amount of milk. And not only is milk a > >waste of > > > > > energy and water, the production of milk is also a disastrous > > > > source > > > > > of water pollution. A dairy cow produces 120 pounds of waste > >every > > > > > day -- equal to that of two dozen people, but with no toilets, > > > > > sewers, or treatment plants. > > > > > > > > > > In Lancaster County, Pa., manure from dairy cows is > >destroying the > > > > > Chesapeake Bay, and in California, which produces one-fifth > >of the > > > > > country's total supply of milk, the manure from dairy farms > >has > > > > > poisoned vast expanses of underground water, rivers, and > >streams. > > > > In > > > > > the Central Valley of California, the cows produce as much > > > > excrement > > > > > as a city of 21 million people, and even a smallish farm of > >200 > > > > cows > > > > > will produce as much nitrogen as in the sewage from a > >community of > > > > > 5,000 to 10,000 people, according to a U.S. Senate report on > > > > animal > > > > > waste. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > FOR YOUR HEALTH: > > > > > Dairy products are a health hazard. They contain no fiber or > > > > complex > > > > > carbohydrates and are laden with saturated fat and > >cholesterol. > > > > They > > > > > are contaminated with cow's blood and pus and are frequently > > > > > contaminated with pesticides, hormones, and antibiotics. Dairy > > > > > products are linked to allergies, constipation, obesity, heart > > > > > disease, cancer, and other diseases. > > > > > > > > > > The late Dr. Benjamin Spock, America's leading authority on > >child > > > > > care, spoke out against feeding cow's milk to children, > >saying it > > > > can > > > > > cause anemia, allergies, and insulin-dependent diabetes and > >in the > > > > > long term, will set kids up for obesity and heart disease, > > > > America's > > > > > number one cause of death. > > > > > > > > > > And dairy products may actually cause osteoporosis, not > >prevent > > > > it, > > > > > since their high-protein content leaches calcium from the > >body. > > > > > Population studies, backed up by a groundbreaking Harvard > >study of > > > > > more than 75,000 nurses, suggest that drinking milk can > >actually > > > > > cause osteoporosis. Find out more by visiting our links page. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WHAT YOU CAN DO: > > > > > According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the average > > > > American > > > > > consumes more than 550 pounds of dairy products annually, > >which > > > > is 40 > > > > > percent of the bulk of the food we eat. Click here to see an > > > > > illustration of the " Food Pyramid " which is representative of > > > > actual > > > > > American eating habits. > > > > > > > > > > Give the bottle the boot! Instead, try delicious soy or rice > >milk, > > > > > soy cheese, Tofutti ice cream, and tofu sour cream and cream > > > > cheese. > > > > > All are widely available at health food stores and many > > > > supermarkets. > > > > > Click here for information on adopting a dairy-free diet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In The News > > > > > > > > > > Anit-milk ad 'a cheap point at the expense of Catholics' (The > > > > > Vancouver Sun) > > > > > > > > > > Factory Dairies Invade Wisconsin (Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel) > > > > > > > > > > White Poison: The Horrors of Milk(Times of India) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " There's no reason to drink cow's milk at any time in your > >life. > > > > It > > > > > was designed for calves, not humans, and we should all stop > > > > drinking > > > > > it today. " > > > > > -Dr. Frank A. Oski > > > > > Former Director of Pediatrics, Johns Hopkins University > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals > > > > > 501 Front St., Norfolk, VA 23510; 757-622-PETA > > > > > MilkSucks.comLiving Dairy-FreeFind Out MoreFree Vegetarian > > > > Starter > > > > > PackVegNow.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 I had said nothing to this woman, she just came in and punched me. Lesley EBbrewpunx [EBbrewpunx]20 August 2002 16:46 Subject: RE: anger control*sigh*lesley....you come across as a person with a lot of angerand now you are talking about carrying pepper spray and spraying smokers...you didn't mention anything about violent smokers, just smokers...i don't believe that is really gonna make anyone not smoke..tho, you will probably get arrested, and that certainly will not make you er anyone else happy....i am sorry you got punchedmay i ask, exactly wot did you say to this woman?"Lesley Dove" <Lesley wrote:>>I was the victim, I am only interested in taking steps to defend myself, not>to make unprovoked attacks on people. I am even considering learning some>form of self-defence.>>You and Cathy are blaming the victim here, very nice. The attack on me was>unprovoked, the person attacking me was much more full of anger than I was.>She was the one who was way over the top, are you both saying that freaks>like her should get away with it?>>Lesley>> > B. B. [ibyza2001]> 20 August 2002 11:31> > anger control>>> Dear Lesly I think too you are "way out"I recomend you to read the>biography of Gandhi and see the mouvie.>> Non-violence is the path; I think you should heal your hate and anger;>heal your past, and present; we need union not war among us; I recomend you>to read the exceptional books of Louise Hay "Heal your life">> Regards>>>> >"cathyjupp"> > > > > > Re: I agree but> >Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:22:39 -0000> >> >Lesley - I'm serious here - go to your doctor and ask for counselling> >or some other form of anger management assistance. You are in> >serious danger of harming yourself (or someone else). You have> >already been punched in the face once and I can see it happening> >again, or worse, if you don't do something to manage your attitude.> >It is well over the top. You see yourself as taking reasonable steps> >to protect yourself, but I think your attitude has gone *way* past> >that.> >> >Cathy> >> >> >> >> >, "Lesley Dove" wrote:> > >> > > I'm getting almost past the stage of being peaceful with smokers,> >I'm even> > > considering getting a pepper/tear gas spray and to hell with the> >fact that> > > it is illegal in the UK (we have very little right to protect> >ourselves> > > effectively from violent antisocial freaks in this country), to> >spray on> > > smokers when they make me ill and are refusing to stub it out. If> >they are> > > unreasonable, it's just a matter of self-defence, not attack as I> >see it> > > since they are hurting me. They need to know the pain they are> >causing and> > > maybe mace would just give them some idea of how second hand smoke> > > inhalation feels to a sensitive person.> > >> > > I am considering a violent solution to the assault on my lungs in> >future> > > because I was punched in the face for complaining about a smoker> >the other> > > day so no more Mrs Peaceful Dove after the way I have suffered. I> >wouldn't> > > carry a gun or a knife though, that would be taking it too far! I> >had a bad> > > headache and blurred vision from being punched and had a bruised> >eyebrow and> > > forehead. I was feeling so ill for days because the smoke had> >already caused> > > me breathing trouble when I complained so I was wheezy for ages. My> >attacker> > > has not been caught, the police are pretty hopeless. I will of> >course press> > > charges if she is caught. Considering the circumstances that I was> >sitting> > > down struggling to breathe when I was punched it was a particularly> >cowardly> > > and callous attack. It was obvious to this woman that I was not in a> > > position to fight back. I ended up behaving badly on the other> > vegan> > > group just very soon after the attack and I think I was in a> >slightly> > > confused state at the time, so that the balance of my mind was> >disturbed,> > > but I still got banned from the group.> > >> > > Tobacco is not really an addiction, I don't believe in it as an> >addiction> > > anyway. I think smokers just say that as an excuse, but it's all in> >their> > > minds and it's just a habit that people choose to do because some> >people> > > like to annoy other people, that is why youngsters start usually,> >to rebel> > > and annoy someone, that is the true nature of the smoker. My dad> >and my gran> > > had no problem quitting when I was young, and there were no> >nicotine chewing> > > gums or patches then (people are spoilt these days!), they just> >quit on> > > their own because they realised it was a deadly habit. I was proud> >of them> > > both. Nowadays smokers whinge about how hard it is to quit, I'm> >sick of> > > that, they don't know how lucky they are to get so much help on the> >health> > > service, and to get their self-inflicted illnesses treated. I also> >don't> > > think people like George Best and Larry Hagman (alcohol abusers)> >deserve new> > > livers, if they don't care about their own that they are born with,> >and> > > drink as much as thery did they should be low priority for> >transplants, I> > > think, after children and people who could not have prevented their> >illness.> > > The innocent victims should be helped more, the woman who hit me> >had most> > > likely been drinking anyway, so much mindless violence is alcohol> >related,> > > that has innocent victims too.> > >> > > I'm sorry that dairy made you ill, I'm glad it didn't affect me at> >all that> > > way since I was already suffering from the smoke, but I guess we> >all have> > > our own unique set of sensitivities and allergies. I can eat> >anything which> > > most people class as food without any trouble, even as a meat-eater> >I never> > > had constipation or any food allergies. I just choose veganism on> >ethical> > > grounds.> > >> > > I think a food allergy would be easier to manage than a tobacco> >smoke> > > allergy because many people think I am faking it. That is hard to> >handle.> > > I've heard of someone else whose doctor said he was more likely> >allergic to> > > cats or mold, when he complained that tobacco smoke affected him> >badly, I> > > don't know why doctors should be so sceptical about this problem> >and try to> > > blame other things.> > >> > > I even got accused behind my back of being "unsociable" in one> >animal rights> > > group because I would not go in the smoky pub after protests with> >them, how> > > unfair is that? They knew I couldn't bear being around smoke, and> >were not> > > very understanding of my sensitivity.> > > It's very inconsistent that they were against making animals smoke> >in lab> > > experimenrts but wanted me to be forced to breathe in secondary> >smoke as a> > > prerequisite to being a fully accepted one of their crowd. I guess> >social> > > coercion to accept something damaging and unhealthy is OK with some> >AR> > > people, because it's not actual force. I don't see it as the right> >way to> > > treat one of your supposed friends.> > >> > > Lesley> > >> > > > > > B. B. [ibyza2001@h...]> > > 19 August 2002 18:35> > > > > > I agree but> > >> > >> > > I agree fully that we can not go to a demo. and smoke, true!> > >> > > But many of us have been sick on dairy, egg and milk (I had no> >smokers> > > around luckily in that remote place I lived in in that times)> > >> > > This can be fully demonstrated too, so first danger tabacoo OK> > >> > > 2nd meet> > >> > > 3rd dairy & eggs> > >> > > But I guess it depends on individuals' reaction and on beeing> >coherent,> > > LET'S EVOLUTE & PUT A PECEFUL END TO SMOKE ADDICTION> > >> > >> > >> > > >"Lesley Dove"> > > >> > > >To:> > > >RE: Re: milk sucksssssssss> > > >Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:26:19 +0100> > > >> > > >> > > >Is it worth AR people smoking though if the smokers on demos and> >marches> > > put> > > >people who are sensitive like me off going? It makes me so ill,> >that I am> > > >considering not going on a march again if I have to be> >surrounded by> > > >cigarette smoke, I felt very sick on the demo in London and> >after outside> > > >the pub, some of it might have been the car fumes in London but> > > experience> > > >has taught me that tobacco smoke affects me worse! I'm nmo use> >to anyone> > > >I believe demos and protests for the animals should be strictly> > > non-smoking> > > >affairs, it creates a very bad impression on the public to have> >people> > > >smoking. We have to present a nice clean living image.> > > >> > > >Dairy cows have no reason to feel let down by me, I am an> >ethical vegan> > > and> > > >will always promote veganism on animal rights grounds but I will> >not make> > > >what I believe to be false claims about giving up dairy leading> >to> > > improved> > > >health and less mucus for instance, because in my experience it> >made no> > > >difference to my health except mentally to my conscience and> >peace of> > > mind.> > > >My mucus and chest and head problems remained until I was able> >to live> > > away> > > >from second hand smoke.> > > >> > > >Lesley> > > >> > > > > > > > cathyjupp [cj@r...]> > > > 19 August 2002 13:29> > > > > > > > Re: milk sucksssssssss> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > BUT I will> > > > > speak out when I see the vegan movement undermining anti-> >tobacco> > > > campaigning> > > > > by overstating the role of dairy in cancers.> > > >> > > > That would be overstating IN YOUR OPINION, would it? I'm sure> >that> > > > dairy cows everywhere would like to thank you.> > > >> > > > Their veganism will not protect them> > > > > from the harm they are doing to themselves.> > > > >> > > >> > > > The only vegans I know personally aren't vegan for their> >health, but> > > > for the animals' (I know a lot of Americals are, and some> >British of> > > > course - I just haven't met any personally). I don't think that> > > > anyone would reasonably argue that smoking was not bad for> >them - but> > > > some people think it worth it. Veganism has little or nothing> >to do> > > > with it.> > > >> > > > Is this going to turn into another anti-smoking forum? Shall I> >leave> > > > now?> > > >> > > > Cathy> > > >> > > > ps Hallo everyone who knows me from before. Been lurking for a> > > > while to see how everyone is and what's going on here - never> > > > intended to post because I spend far too much time at the lists> >when> > > > I get going, but you know how it is sometimes........> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > ibizkus [ibyza2001@h...]> > > > > 19 August 2002 11:43> > > > > > > > > > milk sucksssssssss> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Got... Breast Cancer? Prostate Cancer? Crohn's Disease? Heart> > > > > Disease Sick Kids? Osteoporosis Fat? Veal? Fat? Zits? Gas?> >Mucus?> > > > > Beer?> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Click here for the truth about dairy products and strong> >bones.> > > > >> > > > > MILK SUCKS...> > > > > FOR THE ANIMALS:> > > > > Corporate-owned factories where cows are warehoused in huge> >sheds> > > > and> > > > > treated like milk machines have replaced most small family> >farms.> > > > > With genetic manipulation and intensive production> >technologies,> > > > it> > > > > is common for modern dairy cows to produce 100 pounds of milk> >a> > > > day—> > > > > 10 times more than they would produce in nature. To keep milk> > > > > production as high as possible, farmers artificially> >inseminate> > > > cows> > > > > every year. Growth hormones and unnatural milking schedules> >cause> > > > > dairy cows' udders to become painful and so heavy that they> > > > sometimes> > > > > drag on the ground, resulting in frequent infections and> >overuse> > > > of> > > > > antibiotics. Cows -- like all mammals -- make milk to feed> >their> > > > own> > > > > babies -- not humans.> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Male calves, the "byproducts" of the dairy industry, endure 14> > > > to17> > > > > weeks of torment in veal crates so small that they can't even> >turn> > > > > around. Female calves often replace their old, worn-out> >mothers,> > > > or> > > > > are slaughtered soon after birth for the rennet in their> >stomachs> > > > (an> > > > > ingredient of most commercial cheeses). They are often kept in> > > > tiny> > > > > crates or tethered in stalls for the first few months of their> > > > lives,> > > > > only to grow up to become "milk machines" like their mothers.> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > FOR THE ENVIRONMENT:> > > > > Cow's milk is an inefficient food source. Cows, like humans,> > > > expend> > > > > the majority of their food intake simply leading their lives.> >It> > > > > takes a great deal of grain and other foodstuffs cycled> >through> > > > cows> > > > > to produce a small amount of milk. And not only is milk a> >waste of> > > > > energy and water, the production of milk is also a disastrous> > > > source> > > > > of water pollution. A dairy cow produces 120 pounds of waste> >every> > > > > day -- equal to that of two dozen people, but with no toilets,> > > > > sewers, or treatment plants.> > > > >> > > > > In Lancaster County, Pa., manure from dairy cows is> >destroying the> > > > > Chesapeake Bay, and in California, which produces one-fifth> >of the> > > > > country's total supply of milk, the manure from dairy farms> >has> > > > > poisoned vast expanses of underground water, rivers, and> >streams.> > > > In> > > > > the Central Valley of California, the cows produce as much> > > > excrement> > > > > as a city of 21 million people, and even a smallish farm of> >200> > > > cows> > > > > will produce as much nitrogen as in the sewage from a> >community of> > > > > 5,000 to 10,000 people, according to a U.S. Senate report on> > > > animal> > > > > waste.> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > FOR YOUR HEALTH:> > > > > Dairy products are a health hazard. They contain no fiber or> > > > complex> > > > > carbohydrates and are laden with saturated fat and> >cholesterol.> > > > They> > > > > are contaminated with cow's blood and pus and are frequently> > > > > contaminated with pesticides, hormones, and antibiotics. Dairy> > > > > products are linked to allergies, constipation, obesity, heart> > > > > disease, cancer, and other diseases.> > > > >> > > > > The late Dr. Benjamin Spock, America's leading authority on> >child> > > > > care, spoke out against feeding cow's milk to children,> >saying it> > > > can> > > > > cause anemia, allergies, and insulin-dependent diabetes and> >in the> > > > > long term, will set kids up for obesity and heart disease,> > > > America's> > > > > number one cause of death.> > > > >> > > > > And dairy products may actually cause osteoporosis, not> >prevent> > > > it,> > > > > since their high-protein content leaches calcium from the> >body.> > > > > Population studies, backed up by a groundbreaking Harvard> >study of> > > > > more than 75,000 nurses, suggest that drinking milk can> >actually> > > > > cause osteoporosis. Find out more by visiting our links page.> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > WHAT YOU CAN DO:> > > > > According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the average> > > > American> > > > > consumes more than 550 pounds of dairy products annually,> >which> > > > is 40> > > > > percent of the bulk of the food we eat. Click here to see an> > > > > illustration of the "Food Pyramid" which is representative of> > > > actual> > > > > American eating habits.> > > > >> > > > > Give the bottle the boot! Instead, try delicious soy or rice> >milk,> > > > > soy cheese, Tofutti ice cream, and tofu sour cream and cream> > > > cheese.> > > > > All are widely available at health food stores and many> > > > supermarkets.> > > > > Click here for information on adopting a dairy-free diet.> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > In The News> > > > >> > > > > Anit-milk ad 'a cheap point at the expense of Catholics' (The> > > > > Vancouver Sun)> > > > >> > > > > Factory Dairies Invade Wisconsin (Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel)> > > > >> > > > > White Poison: The Horrors of Milk(Times of India)> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > "There's no reason to drink cow's milk at any time in your> >life.> > > > It> > > > > was designed for calves, not humans, and we should all stop> > > > drinking> > > > > it today."> > > > > -Dr. Frank A. Oski> > > > > Former Director of Pediatrics, Johns Hopkins University> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals> > > > > 501 Front St., Norfolk, VA 23510; 757-622-PETA> > > > > MilkSucks.comLiving Dairy-FreeFind Out MoreFree Vegetarian> > > > Starter> > > > > PackVegNow.com> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 Don't forget that self-defence is exactly that, and should not be used as attack. Jo I was the victim, I am only interested in taking steps to defend myself, not to make unprovoked attacks on people. I am even considering learning some form of self-defence. You and Cathy are blaming the victim here, very nice. The attack on me was unprovoked, the person attacking me was much more full of anger than I was. She was the one who was way over the top, are you both saying that freaks like her should get away with it? Lesley B. B. [ibyza2001]20 August 2002 11:31 Subject: anger control Dear Lesly I think too you are "way out"I recomend you to read the biography of Gandhi and see the mouvie. Non-violence is the path; I think you should heal your hate and anger; heal your past, and present; we need union not war among us; I recomend you to read the exceptional books of Louise Hay "Heal your life" Regards >"cathyjupp" > > > Re: I agree but >Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:22:39 -0000 > >Lesley - I'm serious here - go to your doctor and ask for counselling >or some other form of anger management assistance. You are in >serious danger of harming yourself (or someone else). You have >already been punched in the face once and I can see it happening >again, or worse, if you don't do something to manage your attitude. >It is well over the top. You see yourself as taking reasonable steps >to protect yourself, but I think your attitude has gone *way* past >that. > >Cathy > > > > >, "Lesley Dove" wrote: > > > > I'm getting almost past the stage of being peaceful with smokers, >I'm even > > considering getting a pepper/tear gas spray and to hell with the >fact that > > it is illegal in the UK (we have very little right to protect >ourselves > > effectively from violent antisocial freaks in this country), to >spray on > > smokers when they make me ill and are refusing to stub it out. If >they are > > unreasonable, it's just a matter of self-defence, not attack as I >see it > > since they are hurting me. They need to know the pain they are >causing and > > maybe mace would just give them some idea of how second hand smoke > > inhalation feels to a sensitive person. > > > > I am considering a violent solution to the assault on my lungs in >future > > because I was punched in the face for complaining about a smoker >the other > > day so no more Mrs Peaceful Dove after the way I have suffered. I >wouldn't > > carry a gun or a knife though, that would be taking it too far! I >had a bad > > headache and blurred vision from being punched and had a bruised >eyebrow and > > forehead. I was feeling so ill for days because the smoke had >already caused > > me breathing trouble when I complained so I was wheezy for ages. My >attacker > > has not been caught, the police are pretty hopeless. I will of >course press > > charges if she is caught. Considering the circumstances that I was >sitting > > down struggling to breathe when I was punched it was a particularly >cowardly > > and callous attack. It was obvious to this woman that I was not in a > > position to fight back. I ended up behaving badly on the other > vegan > > group just very soon after the attack and I think I was in a >slightly > > confused state at the time, so that the balance of my mind was >disturbed, > > but I still got banned from the group. > > > > Tobacco is not really an addiction, I don't believe in it as an >addiction > > anyway. I think smokers just say that as an excuse, but it's all in >their > > minds and it's just a habit that people choose to do because some >people > > like to annoy other people, that is why youngsters start usually, >to rebel > > and annoy someone, that is the true nature of the smoker. My dad >and my gran > > had no problem quitting when I was young, and there were no >nicotine chewing > > gums or patches then (people are spoilt these days!), they just >quit on > > their own because they realised it was a deadly habit. I was proud >of them > > both. Nowadays smokers whinge about how hard it is to quit, I'm >sick of > > that, they don't know how lucky they are to get so much help on the >health > > service, and to get their self-inflicted illnesses treated. I also >don't > > think people like George Best and Larry Hagman (alcohol abusers) >deserve new > > livers, if they don't care about their own that they are born with, >and > > drink as much as thery did they should be low priority for >transplants, I > > think, after children and people who could not have prevented their >illness. > > The innocent victims should be helped more, the woman who hit me >had most > > likely been drinking anyway, so much mindless violence is alcohol >related, > > that has innocent victims too. > > > > I'm sorry that dairy made you ill, I'm glad it didn't affect me at >all that > > way since I was already suffering from the smoke, but I guess we >all have > > our own unique set of sensitivities and allergies. I can eat >anything which > > most people class as food without any trouble, even as a meat-eater >I never > > had constipation or any food allergies. I just choose veganism on >ethical > > grounds. > > > > I think a food allergy would be easier to manage than a tobacco >smoke > > allergy because many people think I am faking it. That is hard to >handle. > > I've heard of someone else whose doctor said he was more likely >allergic to > > cats or mold, when he complained that tobacco smoke affected him >badly, I > > don't know why doctors should be so sceptical about this problem >and try to > > blame other things. > > > > I even got accused behind my back of being "unsociable" in one >animal rights > > group because I would not go in the smoky pub after protests with >them, how > > unfair is that? They knew I couldn't bear being around smoke, and >were not > > very understanding of my sensitivity. > > It's very inconsistent that they were against making animals smoke >in lab > > experimenrts but wanted me to be forced to breathe in secondary >smoke as a > > prerequisite to being a fully accepted one of their crowd. I guess >social > > coercion to accept something damaging and unhealthy is OK with some >AR > > people, because it's not actual force. I don't see it as the right >way to > > treat one of your supposed friends. > > > > Lesley > > > > > > B. B. [ibyza2001@h...] > > 19 August 2002 18:35 > > > > I agree but > > > > > > I agree fully that we can not go to a demo. and smoke, true! > > > > But many of us have been sick on dairy, egg and milk (I had no >smokers > > around luckily in that remote place I lived in in that times) > > > > This can be fully demonstrated too, so first danger tabacoo OK > > > > 2nd meet > > > > 3rd dairy & eggs > > > > But I guess it depends on individuals' reaction and on beeing >coherent, > > LET'S EVOLUTE & PUT A PECEFUL END TO SMOKE ADDICTION > > > > > > > > >"Lesley Dove" > > > > > >> > >RE: Re: milk sucksssssssss > > >Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:26:19 +0100 > > > > > > > > >Is it worth AR people smoking though if the smokers on demos and >marches > > put > > >people who are sensitive like me off going? It makes me so ill, >that I am > > >considering not going on a march again if I have to be >surrounded by > > >cigarette smoke, I felt very sick on the demo in London and >after outside > > >the pub, some of it might have been the car fumes in London but > > experience > > >has taught me that tobacco smoke affects me worse! I'm nmo use >to anyone > > >I believe demos and protests for the animals should be strictly > > non-smoking > > >affairs, it creates a very bad impression on the public to have >people > > >smoking. We have to present a nice clean living image. > > > > > >Dairy cows have no reason to feel let down by me, I am an >ethical vegan > > and > > >will always promote veganism on animal rights grounds but I will >not make > > >what I believe to be false claims about giving up dairy leading >to > > improved > > >health and less mucus for instance, because in my experience it >made no > > >difference to my health except mentally to my conscience and >peace of > > mind. > > >My mucus and chest and head problems remained until I was able >to live > > away > > >from second hand smoke. > > > > > >Lesley > > > > > > > > > cathyjupp [cj@r...] > > > 19 August 2002 13:29 > > > > > > Re: milk sucksssssssss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BUT I will > > > > speak out when I see the vegan movement undermining anti- >tobacco > > > campaigning > > > > by overstating the role of dairy in cancers. > > > > > > That would be overstating IN YOUR OPINION, would it? I'm sure >that > > > dairy cows everywhere would like to thank you. > > > > > > Their veganism will not protect them > > > > from the harm they are doing to themselves. > > > > > > > > > > The only vegans I know personally aren't vegan for their >health, but > > > for the animals' (I know a lot of Americals are, and some >British of > > > course - I just haven't met any personally). I don't think that > > > anyone would reasonably argue that smoking was not bad for >them - but > > > some people think it worth it. Veganism has little or nothing >to do > > > with it. > > > > > > Is this going to turn into another anti-smoking forum? Shall I >leave > > > now? > > > > > > Cathy > > > > > > ps Hallo everyone who knows me from before. Been lurking for a > > > while to see how everyone is and what's going on here - never > > > intended to post because I spend far too much time at the lists >when > > > I get going, but you know how it is sometimes........ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ibizkus [ibyza2001@h...] > > > > 19 August 2002 11:43 > > > > > > > > milk sucksssssssss > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Got... Breast Cancer? Prostate Cancer? Crohn's Disease? Heart > > > > Disease Sick Kids? Osteoporosis Fat? Veal? Fat? Zits? Gas? >Mucus? > > > > Beer? > > > > > > > > > > > > Click here for the truth about dairy products and strong >bones. > > > > > > > > MILK SUCKS... > > > > FOR THE ANIMALS: > > > > Corporate-owned factories where cows are warehoused in huge >sheds > > > and > > > > treated like milk machines have replaced most small family >farms. > > > > With genetic manipulation and intensive production >technologies, > > > it > > > > is common for modern dairy cows to produce 100 pounds of milk >a > > > day— > > > > 10 times more than they would produce in nature. To keep milk > > > > production as high as possible, farmers artificially >inseminate > > > cows > > > > every year. Growth hormones and unnatural milking schedules >cause > > > > dairy cows' udders to become painful and so heavy that they > > > sometimes > > > > drag on the ground, resulting in frequent infections and >overuse > > > of > > > > antibiotics. Cows -- like all mammals -- make milk to feed >their > > > own > > > > babies -- not humans. > > > > > > > > > > > > Male calves, the "byproducts" of the dairy industry, endure 14 > > > to17 > > > > weeks of torment in veal crates so small that they can't even >turn > > > > around. Female calves often replace their old, worn-out >mothers, > > > or > > > > are slaughtered soon after birth for the rennet in their >stomachs > > > (an > > > > ingredient of most commercial cheeses). They are often kept in > > > tiny > > > > crates or tethered in stalls for the first few months of their > > > lives, > > > > only to grow up to become "milk machines" like their mothers. > > > > > > > > > > > > FOR THE ENVIRONMENT: > > > > Cow's milk is an inefficient food source. Cows, like humans, > > > expend > > > > the majority of their food intake simply leading their lives. >It > > > > takes a great deal of grain and other foodstuffs cycled >through > > > cows > > > > to produce a small amount of milk. And not only is milk a >waste of > > > > energy and water, the production of milk is also a disastrous > > > source > > > > of water pollution. A dairy cow produces 120 pounds of waste >every > > > > day -- equal to that of two dozen people, but with no toilets, > > > > sewers, or treatment plants. > > > > > > > > In Lancaster County, Pa., manure from dairy cows is >destroying the > > > > Chesapeake Bay, and in California, which produces one-fifth >of the > > > > country's total supply of milk, the manure from dairy farms >has > > > > poisoned vast expanses of underground water, rivers, and >streams. > > > In > > > > the Central Valley of California, the cows produce as much > > > excrement > > > > as a city of 21 million people, and even a smallish farm of >200 > > > cows > > > > will produce as much nitrogen as in the sewage from a >community of > > > > 5,000 to 10,000 people, according to a U.S. Senate report on > > > animal > > > > waste. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > FOR YOUR HEALTH: > > > > Dairy products are a health hazard. They contain no fiber or > > > complex > > > > carbohydrates and are laden with saturated fat and >cholesterol. > > > They > > > > are contaminated with cow's blood and pus and are frequently > > > > contaminated with pesticides, hormones, and antibiotics. Dairy > > > > products are linked to allergies, constipation, obesity, heart > > > > disease, cancer, and other diseases. > > > > > > > > The late Dr. Benjamin Spock, America's leading authority on >child > > > > care, spoke out against feeding cow's milk to children, >saying it > > > can > > > > cause anemia, allergies, and insulin-dependent diabetes and >in the > > > > long term, will set kids up for obesity and heart disease, > > > America's > > > > number one cause of death. > > > > > > > > And dairy products may actually cause osteoporosis, not >prevent > > > it, > > > > since their high-protein content leaches calcium from the >body. > > > > Population studies, backed up by a groundbreaking Harvard >study of > > > > more than 75,000 nurses, suggest that drinking milk can >actually > > > > cause osteoporosis. Find out more by visiting our links page. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WHAT YOU CAN DO: > > > > According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the average > > > American > > > > consumes more than 550 pounds of dairy products annually, >which > > > is 40 > > > > percent of the bulk of the food we eat. Click here to see an > > > > illustration of the "Food Pyramid" which is representative of > > > actual > > > > American eating habits. > > > > > > > > Give the bottle the boot! Instead, try delicious soy or rice >milk, > > > > soy cheese, Tofutti ice cream, and tofu sour cream and cream > > > cheese. > > > > All are widely available at health food stores and many > > > supermarkets. > > > > Click here for information on adopting a dairy-free diet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In The News > > > > > > > > Anit-milk ad 'a cheap point at the expense of Catholics' (The > > > > Vancouver Sun) > > > > > > > > Factory Dairies Invade Wisconsin (Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel) > > > > > > > > White Poison: The Horrors of Milk(Times of India) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "There's no reason to drink cow's milk at any time in your >life. > > > It > > > > was designed for calves, not humans, and we should all stop > > > drinking > > > > it today." > > > > -Dr. Frank A. Oski > > > > Former Director of Pediatrics, Johns Hopkins University > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals > > > > 501 Front St., Norfolk, VA 23510; 757-622-PETA > > > > MilkSucks.comLiving Dairy-FreeFind Out MoreFree Vegetarian > > > Starter > > > > PackVegNow.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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