New member intro (and some questions, too :-) )

[Guest guest]

Hello everyone,

 

my name is Marko, I am 21 year old student of Computer science from

Serbia, and I am a new member to this list.

 

I am not a vegetarian, and I have never been one, but I have been

thinking for a long time now to abandon meat, for moral and ethical

reasons, off course. But, I wouldn't do that at all cost, so, I would

like to ask you few questions, just to be sure if I am doing the right

thing.

 

I would like to know if there would be any negative side effects to my

activities, both intellectual and physical, if I changed my diet in

such radical way. Since I am a student, concentration is vital to me,

and also I am an active hiker and cyclist. Even though I feel

compassion for animals, I wouldn't like to cripple my own abilities.

 

Is there any advantage in eating meat? I have read about many

disadvantages, but, is there any reason why I shouldn't stop eating

meat? What about milk and dairy products, eggs, fish and sea food?

 

I am really new to all this, and I will not be able to contribute much,

but I would sure like to ask many more questions. I hope that won't be

a problem.

 

I am looking forward to learning from you.

 

--

Best regards,

Marko

[Guest guest]

Hello Marko, welcome to the board.

 

I believe it's important to lay a solid foundation of conviction about

being vegetarian, and I think the ideas on the PETA site are an

excellent starting place -- http://www.peta.org/about/faq.asp

Definitely worth a read. Their " Meet your Meat " video is also very

good.

 

I believe " negative side effects " are a myth. I remain intellectually

and physically active (like to hike 2000 meter mountains nearby in

summer for fun). Never had a problem. They say if you're vegan it's

good to supplement certain nutrients, though in truth it's not that

hard, and I've never really paid it that much attention in four years.

 

Asking questions is half of what these boards are about :-)

 

 

, Marko Boskovic

<marko.boskovic@m...> wrote:

> Hello everyone,

>

> my name is Marko, I am 21 year old student of Computer science from

> Serbia, and I am a new member to this list.

>

> I am not a vegetarian, and I have never been one, but I have been

> thinking for a long time now to abandon meat, for moral and ethical

> reasons, off course. But, I wouldn't do that at all cost, so, I would

> like to ask you few questions, just to be sure if I am doing the right

> thing.

>

> I would like to know if there would be any negative side effects to my

> activities, both intellectual and physical, if I changed my diet in

> such radical way. Since I am a student, concentration is vital to me,

> and also I am an active hiker and cyclist. Even though I feel

> compassion for animals, I wouldn't like to cripple my own abilities.

>

> Is there any advantage in eating meat? I have read about many

> disadvantages, but, is there any reason why I shouldn't stop eating

> meat? What about milk and dairy products, eggs, fish and sea food?

>

> I am really new to all this, and I will not be able to contribute much,

> but I would sure like to ask many more questions. I hope that won't be

> a problem.

>

> I am looking forward to learning from you.

>

> --

> Best regards,

> Marko

[Guest guest]

Hello Radcsusa,

 

r> I believe it's important to lay a solid foundation of conviction about

r> being vegetarian, and I think the ideas on the PETA site are an

r> excellent starting place -- http://www.peta.org/about/faq.asp

r> Definitely worth a read. Their " Meet your Meat " video is also very

r> good.

 

Thank you for that great link! I have read almost everything, and it

really did answer some of my questions or reaffirm previous convictions.

It definitely has changed my opinion about dairy products and fish,

which I never realized can be so harmful.

 

As for the video, my Internet connection speed is so low, and it will

take me some time to download it ;-)

 

r> I believe " negative side effects " are a myth. I remain intellectually

r> and physically active (like to hike 2000 meter mountains nearby in

r> summer for fun). Never had a problem. They say if you're vegan it's

r> good to supplement certain nutrients, though in truth it's not that

r> hard, and I've never really paid it that much attention in four years.

 

r> Asking questions is half of what these boards are about :-)

 

Great! Then, here are several more :-)

On the site you suggested, it is underlined that many dangerous

substances are accumulated in meat (such as heavy metals, antibiotics,

pesticides...) Aren't those accumulated in plants, as well?

 

Why are genetically altered plants dangerous (and in which way)? Is

there any way to tell them apart from those unaltered?

 

I couldn't find an answer on PETA if there is anything positive about

consuming meat. Is it really possible that the meat was consumed

through the history only out of habit?

 

Often, when I talk to my friends about vegetarianism, the " main proof "

pointed out against it is that human evolution into an intelligent

species would not be possible without that switch to meat-eating. Is

that really a truth?

 

--

Best regards,

Marko

[Guest guest]

Hi Marko,

 

Another great place for information is the Vegetarian Resource Group

at VRG.org

 

I think you'll find as you gather information, that many concerns

about vegetarianism are based on fear of the unknown. It is quite

difficult for folks who live with meat as the main part of their diet

to imagine being able to survive without it. Once we make the change

& see how simple it is to be healthy without meat, all the concern is

hard to understand.

 

No need to worry about your health/athletic abilities being adversely

affected...if you eat a good, balanced diet you'll do great. There

are several great atheletes who are vegetarians. I have been more

healthy in recent years than I was in my younger years. I haven't

had a cold in over 3 years, & have plenty of energy. While I'm far

from an athelete, I do enjoy biking & hiking, and during warm weather

months often enjoy a 40 or 50 mile biking day, or an afternoon on the

hiking trails. No need to worry about your brain turning to mush

either...you'll be in the company of Albert Einstein, Thomas Edison,

Ralph Waldo Emerson, Ben Franklin, Mahatma Gandhi & many other great

thinkers :-)

 

I have heard that Vitamin B12 is a difficult vitamin to get solely

through plant sources. Vegetarians who still use dairy may get

enough B12 without supplementing, but because I have cut back a great

deal on dairy, I do take a supplement. Some foods (like soy milk)

are also fortified with B12.

 

Good luck to you.

 

Sheri

[Guest guest]

hi, marko, and welcome to the group!!

 

> I would like to know if there would be any negative side effects to my

> activities,  both  intellectual  and physical, if I changed my diet in

> such  radical way. Since I am a student, concentration is vital to me,

> and  also  I  am  an  active  hiker  and  cyclist.  Even though I feel

> compassion for animals, I wouldn't like to cripple my own abilities.

>

the most important thing when going vegetarian, and especially when going

vegan, is to educate yourself in nutrition. you will need to have a source of

vitamin b12, and make sure your diet is a balanced one -- about 30-40% proteins

(including things like soy products, nuts/seeds, beans, many whole grains),

40-50% complex carbs (including things like whole grains, vegetables and

fruits), and 20% healthy fats (mono/polyunsaturated, like olive oil, nuts/seeds,

avocadoes, canola oil). if your diet is balanced, you will most likely feel

better than you did before you went veg!

 

proof in point, i'm a personal trainer/nutritional counsellor and VERY active

in weight training, dancing, hard-core cardiovascular activities, and i teach

boot camp classes as well. i have suffered no negative effects since going

vegan, and in fact look and feel better than ever. plus, i can rest easy

knowing i'm living within my morality.

 

> Is  there  any  advantage  in  eating  meat?

>

not really.

 

>   I  have  read about many

> disadvantages,  but,  is  there any reason why I shouldn't stop eating

> meat? What about milk and dairy products, eggs, fish and sea food?

>

again, not really.

 

> I am really new to all this, and I will not be able to contribute much,

> but I would sure like to ask many more questions. I hope that won't be

> a problem.

>

not at all-- please let me know if you have any more questions!

 

melody

 

 

http://www.melodysmusic.net

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

> Why are genetically altered plants dangerous (and in which

way)? Is

> there any way to tell them apart from those unaltered?

 

 

There is much debate about this. My personal opinion is that they

are dangerous, we just haven't figure out exactly all the details

yet. Good websites:

 

http://www.safe-food.org/

 

http://www.greenpeace.org/international_en/campaigns/intro?

campaign_id=3942

 

http://organicconsumers.org/ (the campaign to get them labelled)

 

http://www.gmnation.org.uk/

 

http://www.truefoodnow.org/shoppersguide/ (EXCELLENT guide to

which foods are and which foods are not GMO)

[Guest guest]

Hi Marko and welcome to the list,

 

It's great that you're really exploring vegetarianism and are so

curious. The sites people recommended are very good. Realize,

however, that they (like this list) are promoting a vegetarian diet

so will not have any " benefits " to meat eating (if there even are

any) listed.

 

As far as pesticides, etc., found in meat - yes, it is possible for

plants to contain many adverse chemicals and such. That's why so

many people recommend going organic (raised w/o pesticides, etc.)

However, cattle and other livestock are often force-fed antibiotics

and other chemicals to increase their growth, milk production, reduce

herd diseases, etc. The animals would never consume these things on

their own. HOWEVER - once they are force fed these products, the

byproducts are then transferred to plants via urine, manure, etc. And

that's how plants become " infected. " So, it is the meat industry

that brings this cyclical problem about.

 

There is absolutely no evidence that humankind couldn't have evolved

w/o eating meat. NONE. In fact, many cultures have noted the

various mental and physical benefits of a vegetarian diet. Did you

ever notice how lethargic people become after consuming huge, fatty

meals? That's b/c fatty foods (like red meat) are harder for the body

to digest and it takes more energy to process them. So, if anything,

eating a vegetarian diet leaves more energy for mental growth, not

less!

 

Good luck in pursuing this path and please continue to ask questions!

 

-K

 

 

, Marko Boskovic

<marko.boskovic@m...> wrote:

>:-)

>

> Great! Then, here are several more :-)

> On the site you suggested, it is underlined that many

dangerous

> substances are accumulated in meat (such as heavy metals,

antibiotics,

> pesticides...) Aren't those accumulated in plants, as well?

>

> Why are genetically altered plants dangerous (and in which way)?

Is

> there any way to tell them apart from those unaltered?

>

> I couldn't find an answer on PETA if there is anything positive

about

> consuming meat. Is it really possible that the meat was

consumed

> through the history only out of habit?

>

> Often, when I talk to my friends about vegetarianism, the " main

proof "

> pointed out against it is that human evolution into an

intelligent

> species would not be possible without that switch to meat-eating.

Is

> that really a truth?

>

> --

> Best regards,

> Marko

[Guest guest]

I would also like to add that you should try to get a daily dose of

omega-3 fatty acids. Omega 3's have been found to help in

reducing " bad " cholesterol, reducing depression and improving

cognitive abilities (concentraion and memory tasks). You can find

omega-3s in flaxseeds, pumpkin seeds, walnuts, and hemp seed, and to

a lesser extent, canola oil. You should consume these products raw

whenever possible, because lots of heat can destroy omega 3's. Fish

is the only major non-vegetarian source of omega 3s. And people that

promote fish-eating usually aren't aware that heat destroys omega 3s.

therefore, unless they're eating sushi, they aren't even getting any

benefits.

 

, nadiana1@a... wrote:

> hi, marko, and welcome to the group!!

[Guest guest]

on

> their own. HOWEVER - once they are force fed these products, the

> byproducts are then transferred to plants via urine, manure, etc.

And

> that's how plants become " infected. " So, it is the meat industry

> that brings this cyclical problem about.

 

 

Plants also become " infected " because the agriculture industry feels

it is necessary to spray their crops with pesticides. They also

spray them with lots of fertilizers. Many farmers do not do

adequate crop rotations to keep the soil fertile, so it gets

depleted of necessary nutrients. Thus, the " need " to spray the land

with fertilizer too. Animals then eat large quantities of these

plants and the pesticide residues collect in their tissues. Then

when other animals eat the animals, they get more and more

residues. There is a cumulative effect when moving up the food

chain if this makes sense.

[Guest guest]

Just a note: some people have been vegetarian all their lives. Some of

us have been vegetarian for just twenty years or so. Some are more

recently arrived at vegetarianism. None of us seem to think that there

is anything unhealthful about omitting meat from our diets ;=) Indeed,

most of us feel - quite apart from our concern with the welfare of

animals - that eating a meat-free diet is most beneficial to our health.

 

I think you can safely put your worries behind you ;=) Welcome to the group.

 

Pat

(Very aged but healthy vegetarian ;=))

--

SANTBROWN

townhounds/

vegetarianslimming/

HOMEPAGE: http://www.angelfire.com/art/pendragon/

----------

* " There are too many idiots in this world. And having said it, I have

the burden of proving it. " (Franz Fanon)

* " Until he extends the circle of compassion to all living things, man

will not himself find peace. " (Albert Schweitzer)

[Guest guest]

Hi K,

 

JS> Hi Marko and welcome to the list,

 

JS> It's great that you're really exploring vegetarianism and are so

JS> curious. The sites people recommended are very good. Realize,

JS> however, that they (like this list) are promoting a vegetarian diet

JS> so will not have any " benefits " to meat eating (if there even are

JS> any) listed.

 

Even though I am very determined to become a vegetarian (you could say

that I already am one, since I do not eat meat anymore :-) ) but I

still want to look on things in a more rational way, rather than

emotional, and to be clear what am I gaining (except clear consciousness)

and what am I (possibly) loosing.

 

JS> As far as pesticides, etc., found in meat - yes, it is possible for

JS> plants to contain many adverse chemicals and such. That's why so

JS> many people recommend going organic (raised w/o pesticides, etc.)

JS> However, cattle and other livestock are often force-fed antibiotics

JS> and other chemicals to increase their growth, milk production, reduce

JS> herd diseases, etc. The animals would never consume these things on

JS> their own. HOWEVER - once they are force fed these products, the

JS> byproducts are then transferred to plants via urine, manure, etc. And

JS> that's how plants become " infected. " So, it is the meat industry

JS> that brings this cyclical problem about.

 

Which plants are more liable to absorb those harmful matters?

 

JS> There is absolutely no evidence that humankind couldn't have evolved

JS> w/o eating meat. NONE. In fact, many cultures have noted the

JS> various mental and physical benefits of a vegetarian diet. Did you

JS> ever notice how lethargic people become after consuming huge, fatty

JS> meals? That's b/c fatty foods (like red meat) are harder for the body

JS> to digest and it takes more energy to process them. So, if anything,

JS> eating a vegetarian diet leaves more energy for mental growth, not

JS> less!

 

I think that getting meat was much more complicated for early men

because it demanded planning and constructing tools, and it also had

made man more independent of his location, which helped him deal with,

and survive great climate changes, so it did influence a change in

human (social) behavior.

I was just asking if his change in diet resulted in different way of

(physical) evolution which it wouldn't take otherwise (aggressiveness,

larger proportions...)

 

JS> Good luck in pursuing this path and please continue to ask questions!

 

Thanks! There will be more soon :-)

 

JS> -K

 

--

Pozdrav,

Marko

[Guest guest]

Hi Marko,

 

Our best option for avoiding pesticides, etc.., is in purchasing

organically grown produce. Here's a link concerning fruits &

vegetables which can be high in pesticides, and good alternatives for

them if you can't purchase organically grown versions of them (thanks

Pat, for the link):

 

http://www.care2.com/channels/solutions/food/242?print=1

 

You also asked about whether you need to be counting foods and highly

structuring your menu plans to be sure you get the proper nutrients.

I haven't been doing this for a lifetime, but have been for a little

over 10 years, and I feel I can get a healthy balance with very

little effort. I sometimes get a kick out of it when folks express

concern about my health because I don't eat meat; often times, these

are the folks who feed their kids Froot Loops for breakfast, or who

live at fast food restaurants. I think you'll find that the average

vegetarian diet, in general, is MUCH more healthy than the SAD.

 

Sheri

 

 

 

, Marko Boskovic

<marko.boskovic@m...> wrote:

 

>

> Which plants are more liable to absorb those harmful matters?

[Guest guest]

I sometimes get a kick out of it when folks express

> concern about my health because I don't eat meat; often times,

these

> are the folks who feed their kids Froot Loops for breakfast, or

who

> live at fast food restaurants. I think you'll find that the

average

> vegetarian diet, in general, is MUCH more healthy than the SAD.

>

> Sheri

 

 

EXCELLENT point about the Froot Loops! I don't buy that stuff! I

do think you can eat a poor vegetarian diet, but if you make sure to

buy " whole " foods and not much processed stuff, it's going to be

generally healthier.

[Guest guest]

You're right Sheryl, I always think of vegetarians as folks very much

aware of their health, but there can be poor vegetarian diets too. I

remember a few years ago, a friend of mine was terribly concerned

about her daughter who had decided to become a vegetarian. At first

I thought mom was just overreacting, but in hearing more from the

mom, it turns out mom had reason to be concerned about her daughter's

diet all along (before becoming vegetarian too). This girl ate very

few fruits & almost no vegetables. I don't think she even knew what

a whole grain was, and she lived pretty much on white rice & pasta.

 

I've heard too, that making sure your fruits & veggies vary in color,

helps get a good balance. I try to vary my grains too...using wheat

berries, rye berries, wild rice, quinoa, etc... Last week, my

husband cooked up a batch of wheat berries & wild rice together, &

the combination made a great breakfast dish with fruit & nuts.

Variety is nice :-)

 

Sheri

 

 

, " Sheryl " <ssarndt>

wrote:

> EXCELLENT point about the Froot Loops! I don't buy that stuff! I

> do think you can eat a poor vegetarian diet, but if you make sure

to

> buy " whole " foods and not much processed stuff, it's going to be

> generally healthier.

[Guest guest]

Hey marko,

as far as evolution goes, ,consider this...

Truly carnvirous animals (e.g. lions) have much shorter intestinal

tracts than herbivores, so the meat passes through them quickly.

This is important since meat rots so quickly it can lead to colon

cancer in humans. Also, carnivores have higher concentrations of

stomach acids which also makes digestion easier. Carnivores usually

have much sharper teeth or claws to tear meat easily and obviously

they have no problem eating raw, bloody meat. Meat leads to heart

disease in humans. Carnivores have less problem with saturated

(animal) fats because they were basically evolved to be on the

atkin's diet- low carbs, high protein / fat. They also get a lot

more exercise than modern humans since they have to chase their prey

around all day so in this way saturated fat is not such a health risk

for them. Humans aren't suited very well to eat meat. Eating meat

puts us at risk for all sorts of diseases- ecoli, salmonella, etc.

 

Some scientists have argued that hunting has caused humans to be more

aggressive against other humans as well. However, predatory

aggression is more related to the hypothalamus whereas emotional

aggression is related more to the amygdala. There are some

evolutionary theories claiming that meat at one time aided in human

evolution; I can email you some if you're curious. But there are

other theories which don't claim meat eating played any significant

role in human evolution. The important thing to keep in mind is even

if meat eating was at one time adaptive for our ancestors doesn't

mean it is in way beneficial for us today.

 

>

> JS> There is absolutely no evidence that humankind couldn't have

evolved

> JS> w/o eating meat. NONE. In fact, many cultures have noted the

> JS> various mental and physical benefits of a vegetarian diet. Did

you

> JS> ever notice how lethargic people become after consuming huge,

fatty

> JS> meals? That's b/c fatty foods (like red meat) are harder for

the body

> JS> to digest and it takes more energy to process them. So, if

anything,

> JS> eating a vegetarian diet leaves more energy for mental growth,

not

> JS> less!

>

> I think that getting meat was much more complicated for early

men

> because it demanded planning and constructing tools, and it also

had

> made man more independent of his location, which helped him deal

with,

> and survive great climate changes, so it did influence a change

in

> human (social) behavior.

> I was just asking if his change in diet resulted in different way

of

> (physical) evolution which it wouldn't take otherwise

(aggressiveness,

> larger proportions...)

>

> JS> Good luck in pursuing this path and please continue to ask

questions!

>

> Thanks! There will be more soon :-)

>

> JS> -K

>

> --

> Pozdrav,

> Marko