Guest guest Posted February 15, 2004 Report Share Posted February 15, 2004 i just read about rennent and was wondering what brands of cheeses do not use this? if possible in my early stage of being a vegetarian i would like to avoid cheese with this ingredient if thats what you want to call it. :-/ i will never look at cheese the same way again:( thanks:) leah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2004 Report Share Posted February 15, 2004 i've been successful finding rennet free or vegetarian rennet cheese at harry's farmers market which is owned by whole foods. any natural food store should have a selection for you. as far as regular grocery stores...i'm not sure. looks like trader joes might have some too. http://traderjoes.com/ http://www.wholefoods.com/ laura On Feb 15, 2004, at 10:03 AM, avital_shalom wrote: > i just read about rennent and was wondering what brands of cheeses > do not use this? if possible in my early stage of being a > vegetarian i would like to avoid cheese with this ingredient if > thats what you want to call it. :-/ i will never look at cheese the > same way again:( thanks:) > > leah > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2004 Report Share Posted February 15, 2004 I know that Amy's Organic always uses rennet free cheese in their pizzas and other entrees. You can also get any of the brands of soy cheese with casein (a milk protein). (i.e. Soya Kaas) they should all be rennet free. They taste identical to dairy cheese and are healthier for you. Or if you can find it, " Follow Your Heart " makes great soy cheese which is entirely free of animal products, so then you don't have to worry about it. , morgaana@a... wrote: > i've been successful finding rennet free or vegetarian rennet cheese at > harry's farmers market which is owned by whole foods. any natural food > store should have a selection for you. as far as regular grocery > stores...i'm not sure. looks like trader joes might have some too. > > http://traderjoes.com/ > http://www.wholefoods.com/ > > laura > > On Feb 15, 2004, at 10:03 AM, avital_shalom wrote: > > > i just read about rennent and was wondering what brands of cheeses > > do not use this? if possible in my early stage of being a > > vegetarian i would like to avoid cheese with this ingredient if > > thats what you want to call it. :-/ i will never look at cheese the > > same way again:( thanks:) > > > > leah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2004 Report Share Posted February 15, 2004 Today in the US. most cheeses are made using rennet that has been biologically cultured. To be blunt, there just aren't enough available calf stomachs out there to make as much cheese as our society demads. So, many years ago, insightful cheese producers started culturing their own " rennin " - cultured rennet bacteria. So, most of the cheese that you purchase today in the US is not made using rennet at all. In Europe things might be different, and I'm sure that many gourmet cheeses demand real rennet. avital_shalom <avital_shalom wrote: i just read about rennent and was wondering what brands of cheeses do not use this? if possible in my early stage of being a vegetarian i would like to avoid cheese with this ingredient if thats what you want to call it. :-/ i will never look at cheese the same way again:( thanks:) leah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2004 Report Share Posted February 15, 2004 I think that whether or not soy cheese is 'healthier' than dairy cheese is a) a matter of opinion and b) a matter of individual experience. Soy cheese won't be healthier for everyone, and there is increasing evidence that in fact soy is not very healthy for anyone unless prepared in very specific ways (i.e. fermentation or combined with other foods that neutralize its toxins.) - 00g dave <dave4sale wrote: You can also get any of the brands of soy cheese with casein (a milk protein). (i.e. Soya Kaas) they should all be rennet free. They taste identical to dairy cheese and are healthier for you. Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2004 Report Share Posted February 15, 2004 cabot brand (www.cabotcheese.com) cheeses are made with vegetable-based rennet. they make wonderful cheeses in many flavors. my favorite is habanero cheddar. i think wal-mart supercenters carry this brand nationwide. i also think you can buy their cheese online from their site. hope this helps, susie > avital_shalom <avital_shalom wrote: > i just read about rennent and was wondering what > brands of cheeses do not use this? Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes./filing.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 15, 2004 Report Share Posted February 15, 2004 thank you to you and everyone else who has helped me on this question:) i will save these e-mails so i can check each opinion when i need to. one more question.. would kosher cheese be safe.. because in jewish dietary laws we are not suppose to mix meat and cheese together so i find it hard to believe they would put such a thing in their cheese. it will be easier for me to just buy cheese with a hechsher.. ( a kosher sign on food). before becoming a vegetarian thats what i did.. i ate kosher meat and seperated the dairy and meat. now i dont eat meat or fish at all. just a bit more about me i guess lol. thanks again for the help everyone:) leah " artichoke72x " <artichoke72x wrote: cabot brand (www.cabotcheese.com) cheeses are made with vegetable-based rennet. they make wonderful cheeses in many flavors. my favorite is habanero cheddar. i think wal-mart supercenters carry this brand nationwide. i also think you can buy their cheese online from their site. hope this helps, susie > avital_shalom <avital_shalom wrote: > i just read about rennent and was wondering what > brands of cheeses do not use this? Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes./filing.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 The claims of soy being unhealthy look like pure propaganda. I've seen them on the internet, they have always been associated with some atkins guru or an anti-vegetarian site. Show me one scientific or medical journal article (no, health food magazines don't count) that suggests soy is unhealthy. The only truth I've found to these claims is that if you use hydrogenated soybean oil- that can raise your " bad " cholesterol. Also, soy shouldn't be given to infants; who really shouldn't be eating anything other than human milk. As long as soy cheese is not hydrogenated, (i.e. tofutti) then it will be lower in saturated fat than dairy cheese and thus healthier. There is also the issue that soybean oil, like many oils, has omega 6's, which aren't health persay, but people tend to consume too much of them and too little of omega3's. , reptile grrl <reptilegoddess> wrote: > I think that whether or not soy cheese is 'healthier' than dairy cheese is a) a matter of opinion and b) a matter of individual experience. > > Soy cheese won't be healthier for everyone, and there is increasing evidence that in fact soy is not very healthy for anyone unless prepared in very specific ways (i.e. fermentation or combined with other foods that neutralize its toxins.) > > - 00g > > dave <dave4sale> wrote: > You can also get any of the brands of soy > cheese with casein (a milk protein). (i.e. Soya Kaas) they should all be rennet free. They taste identical to dairy cheese and are > healthier for you. > ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 I thought they looked like pure propaganda too, until I realized that soy was making me sick. I don't even have a soy allergy, but those who do are an example of people for whom soy is not more healthy than dairy. In any case, what I have found is that consuming a lot of soy (which I've been doing for several years, and even more so since I mostly stopped consuming dairy in early 2001) lowers my energy & increases fatty weight gain on my body. This has been medically measured as well as visually and anecdotally. It has been medically measured because every six weeks, I have some tests run. One of those tests measures my level of ATP. To put it as simply as I can, ATP is the 'energy chemical' in our muscles. Our mitochondria take calories and convert them to ATP; ATP enables our muscles to *work*. Most humans have an ATP level of between 8 and 11. When my ATP was first tested last summer, my ATP level was 2.9. The first month that I (unintentionally) cut down on soy, my ATP levels shot up to 13!! Although they have not remained at 13, they are consistently higher than they were when I ate tofu every day, drank soy milk every day, and ate foods made from soy protein isolate, every day. In addition, I have noticed weight dropping off of my body. The weight loss, rather than being constant across my body, is centered on places affected by estrogen: namely my breasts and thighs. My breasts & thighs have been shrinking since I stopped eating soy as a primary part of my diet. The fat on my rib cage is also less. I've gone down one bra size and may have to go even lower. I have done a lot of research into traditional ways of eating soy. Most of those are not the way that soy is eaten in the west. For instance, in eastern cultures wherein soy was a staple food, it was eaten with other foods which helped to de-estrogenate it and neutralize other toxins. These included fish and fish broth, and various sea vegetables. Fermented soy foods, such as tempeh and soy sauce, seem to be less toxic than non-fermented foods (such as soy milk and my beloved tofu.) Also, the idea that 'lower in saturated fat' always equals 'healthy' is pretty silly. That's just riding another, different wave of propaganda. I'm not debating that soy is of value in a diet; I just don't think that it should be relied on as a staple food, or be a primary source of anything. The same with any food, really. I say: eat what you want, and decide what is healthy for yourself. However, to tell anyone else 'soy is healthier for you' is presumptuous. You don't know that person, and you don't know what are their health requirements. - priscilla dave <dave4sale wrote: The claims of soy being unhealthy look like pure propaganda. I've seen them on the internet, they have always been associated with some atkins guru or an anti-vegetarian site. Show me one scientific or medical journal article (no, health food magazines don't count) that suggests soy is unhealthy. The only truth I've found to these claims is that if you use hydrogenated soybean oil- that can raise your " bad " cholesterol. Also, soy shouldn't be given to infants; who really shouldn't be eating anything other than human milk. As long as soy cheese is not hydrogenated, (i.e. tofutti) then it will be lower in saturated fat than dairy cheese and thus healthier. There is also the issue that soybean oil, like many oils, has omega 6's, which aren't health persay, but people tend to consume too much of them and too little of omega3's. Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2004 Report Share Posted February 21, 2004 I know this one guy who works as a chef in my favorite sushi bar and he suffers from severe gout when he eats too much soy. I don't know too much about the dangers of soy nor do I have medical data to support the idea that we should eat soy cautiously, but I believe caution should be applied towards consuming any one food too much, and this includes soy products. Moderation is the key to all things when you are choosing a healthy diet. As vegetarians we can find so many healthy and delicious alternative ways of getting our required protein and soy is just one of those options. ~ PT ~ A morning-glory at my window satisfies me more than the metaphysics of books. -Walt Whitman, poet (1819-1892) ~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~~~~> , reptile grrl <reptilegoddess> wrote: > I'm not debating that soy is of value in a diet; I just don't think that it should be relied on as a staple food, or be a primary source of anything. The same with any food, really. > - priscilla Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2004 Report Share Posted February 21, 2004 I think gout is usually from foods high in nitrates-like organ meat. Perhaps he is just choosing to blame the soy. Or maybe he's allergic, but that still wouldn't explain the gout. Soy is listed as a common food allergen, although I think people who are allergic to soy are allergic to many other foods as well. I'm not by any means suggesting you should live on a soy only diet. All I'm saying is there's no legitimate evidence which I'm aware of that suggests soy isn't healthy for people in general. I just don't want this to discourage newbies from becoming vegetarian because they just heard a rumor that the soy in their veggieburgers isn't really healthy. , " ~ PT ~ " <patchouli_troll> wrote: > I know this one guy who works as a chef in my > favorite sushi bar and he suffers from severe > gout when he eats too much soy. > I don't know too much about the dangers of > soy nor do I have medical data to support the > idea that we should eat soy cautiously, but I believe > caution should be applied towards consuming > any one food too much, and this includes soy > products. Moderation is the key to all things > when you are choosing a healthy diet. > As vegetarians we can find so many healthy > and delicious alternative ways of getting our > required protein and soy is just one of those > options. > > ~ PT ~ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2004 Report Share Posted February 21, 2004 Legitimate evidence? Okay, how's this: it is accepted by the medical establishment that soy is an estrogenic food. Women suffering form menopause are encouraged to eat soy and take soy supplements in order to boost their declining estrogen. Eating soy frequently means that you are consuming phytoestrogens. Estrogens have all sort of nasty side effects for those who are not deficient in them, such as weight gain, loss of muscle mass, decline in sex drive, etc. People who eat soy frequently are, at the very least, unnaturally raising their own estrogen levels. Soy proponents promote the health benefits of soy, but they ignore the negative aspects of dosing yourself with an estrogenic food. I know, because I did so for years. There is, in fact, plenty of empirical evidence which suggests that soy is not healthy for frequent consumption. Several medical studies have concluded that the phytoestrogens and other chemicals in soy are dangerous for one's health. You say " I just don't want this to discourage newbies from becoming vegetarian because they just heard a rumor that the soy in their veggieburgers isn't really healthy. " Would you rather that people became vegetarian believing that the soy in their veggie burgers IS healthy, when it may not be? dave <dave4sale wrote: All I'm saying is there's no legitimate evidence which I'm aware of that suggests soy isn't healthy for people in general. I just don't want this to discourage newbies from becoming vegetarian because they just heard a rumor that the soy in their veggieburgers isn't really healthy. Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2004 Report Share Posted February 22, 2004 , " dave " <dave4sale> wrote: > I'm not by any means suggesting you should live on a soy only diet. I never thought you were, Dave... just giving a bit of an anticodotal aside that I had picked up on my path. Surely this one person's experience or claim about soy isn't enough to disuade me from eating soy. I personally suffer no ill effects, but do eat soy in moderation as in all things... exceptions to chocolate *jk* > All I'm saying is there's no legitimate evidence which I'm aware of > that suggests soy isn't healthy for people in general. Yeah, I got the gist of your post just fine. > I just don't > want this to discourage newbies from becoming vegetarian because they > just heard a rumor that the soy in their veggieburgers isn't really > healthy. Jeesh, I hardly thought the tone of my response to this thread was in any way intended to discourage anyone from becoming vegetarian. That is not my thang... never has been. Here is what I said, and still stand by: " Moderation is the key to all things when you are choosing a healthy diet. As vegetarians we can find so many healthy and delicious alternative ways of getting our required protein and soy is just one of those options. " ~ pt ~ Nede: " What art do you practice? " Ferchetne: " Hunting for the treasures of knowledge. " ~ 'Colloquy of the Two Sages', anon. Irish poem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2004 Report Share Posted February 22, 2004 ::sigh:: where is this " empirical evidence " of yours? The " medical establishment " ? Personal anecdotes do not count. It is not scientific to make conclusions on the personal experience of one or two individuals because there will always be a few outliers and mistakes. You said you ate tofu and soymilk for years before without getting your atp tested. Could it not be that the one test which said it was at 2.9 was simply a mistake? If you can cite or link one scientific journal article or even an article on a site like webmd- that is what I am asking for. , reptile grrl <reptilegoddess> wrote: > Legitimate evidence? > > Okay, how's this: it is accepted by the medical establishment that soy is an estrogenic food. Women suffering form menopause are encouraged to eat soy and take soy supplements in order to boost their declining estrogen. > > Eating soy frequently means that you are consuming phytoestrogens. Estrogens have all sort of nasty side effects for those who are not deficient in them, such as weight gain, loss of muscle mass, decline in sex drive, etc. People who eat soy frequently are, at the very least, unnaturally raising their own estrogen levels. > > Soy proponents promote the health benefits of soy, but they ignore the negative aspects of dosing yourself with an estrogenic food. I know, because I did so for years. > > There is, in fact, plenty of empirical evidence which suggests that soy is not healthy for frequent consumption. Several medical studies have concluded that the phytoestrogens and other chemicals in soy are dangerous for one's health. > > You say " I just don't want this to discourage newbies from becoming vegetarian because they just heard a rumor that the soy in their veggieburgers isn't really healthy. " Would you rather that people became vegetarian believing that the soy in their veggie burgers IS healthy, when it may not be? > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2004 Report Share Posted February 22, 2004 Are you denying that soy is advertised and promoted as an estrogenic food? If you really are denying it, then you must live completely separated from media, and eat only unlabeled soy products. " Isoflavones " are plant estrogens. Your claim that soy is 'healthier' for the individual to whom you recommended it is neither empirical or scientific. At this point, you are the pot. However, when you say that 'anecdotal evidence does not count', I'm pretty sure that you are speaking as a layman. As someone who has worked in medicine for several years, most recently in clinical social work, I assure you that anecdotal evidence does indeed count, when it comes to the practice of medicine. Yes, I ate tofu and soy for years before my ATP levels were ever tested- and I got sicker and sicker. For the record, I had many many tests of my ATP levels before I stopped eating soy (as I mentioned, I have my ATP tested every six weeks, and have done so for the past year.) They were always abnormally low- until I cut way down on soy. I still eat soy occasionally, but I no longer rely on it as a staple food. I think that any user can do a web search for 'soy doubts' or 'soy toxic' and find plenty of medical studies to verify the information. The studies usually aren't published on the web, but they are referenced in web publications and notes in the end notes or the bibliography. I am reluctant to link to any one article because, unlike yourself, I don't WANT peopel to just take my word for it; I want them to do the research and make their own decisions. dave <dave4sale wrote: ::sigh:: where is this " empirical evidence " of yours? The " medical establishment " ? Personal anecdotes do not count. It is not scientific to make conclusions on the personal experience of one or two individuals because there will always be a few outliers and mistakes. You said you ate tofu and soymilk for years before without getting your atp tested. Could it not be that the one test which said it was at 2.9 was simply a mistake? If you can cite or link one scientific journal article or even an article on a site like webmd- that is what I am asking for. Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2004 Report Share Posted February 23, 2004 I'm well aware that soy has promoted by so-called experts as estrogenic hormone treatment for menopause. But I find that the media is often not a reliable source of info on matters of health- not necessarily because they are falsifying or misinterpreting results, but they report on rather outdated info or cherry pick evidence to make a point. I have found that a lot of recent evidence suggests that soy isoflavones don't actually reduce menopausal symptoms any more than a placebo. Presumably this is because the isoflavones do not actually have a significant effect on hormone levels of humans. I found only one relatively recent JAMA article which suggested isoflavones affected hormones, but it was done on rats, which as I'm sure you know are very,very distantly related to us. here's some articles about the studies I'm talking about... webmd.com/content/article/51/40719.htm?lastselectedguid= {5FE84E90-BC77-4056-A91C-9531713CA348} webmd.com/content/article/64/72234.htm?lastselectedguid= {5FE84E90-BC77-4056-A91C-9531713CA348} webmd.com/content/article/36/1728_55490.htm? lastselectedguid={5FE84E90-BC77-4056-A91C-9531713CA348} The fact that you work in a medical field does not validate your argument about anecdotal evidence. Alternative medicine gurus,social workers, and clinical psychologists often make the assumption that anecdotal evidence and case studies are sufficient as evidence. According to virtually every other field of science they are not. Where anecdotes are useful is in forming a hypothesis to be tested in the lab. This isn't just my opinion, but that held by most scientists. For a great discussion of how to be a consumer of scientific info I recommend the book " How to Think Straight About Psychology " ; although geared towards research psychologists, it also touches on physics and the medical field. Implying that because I am a " layman " I can't possibly know what I'm talking about is just crap. Besides, c. social work hardly makes one a nutritional expert. The only one who can claim any professional expertise on nutritional matters is a nutritionist or perhaps a " food scientist " . I understand your reluctance to rely on one study to prove your point. But the fact that you are unwilling or unable to cite me even one recent study, makes me extremely skeptical of your claim that there is empirical evidence to back it up. Google is full of bogus websites which are either outdated or do not cite their sources or cite phantom studies which are " unavaible to the public " or " not yet published " . , reptile grrl <reptilegoddess> wrote: > Are you denying that soy is advertised and promoted as an estrogenic food? If you really are denying it, then you must live completely separated from media, and eat only unlabeled soy products. " Isoflavones " are plant estrogens. > > Your claim that soy is 'healthier' for the individual to whom you recommended it is neither empirical or scientific. At this point, you are the pot. However, when you say that 'anecdotal evidence does not count', I'm pretty sure that you are speaking as a layman. As someone who has worked in medicine for several years, most recently in clinical social work, I assure you that anecdotal evidence does indeed count, when it comes to the practice of medicine. > > Yes, I ate tofu and soy for years before my ATP levels were ever tested- and I got sicker and sicker. > > For the record, I had many many tests of my ATP levels before I stopped eating soy (as I mentioned, I have my ATP tested every six weeks, and have done so for the past year.) They were always abnormally low- until I cut way down on soy. I still eat soy occasionally, but I no longer rely on it as a staple food. > > I think that any user can do a web search for 'soy doubts' or 'soy toxic' and find plenty of medical studies to verify the information. The studies usually aren't published on the web, but they are referenced in web publications and notes in the end notes or the bibliography. I am reluctant to link to any one article because, unlike yourself, I don't WANT peopel to just take my word for it; I want them to do the research and make their own decisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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