night nursing

[Guest guest]

Our little demon (13 months) brings us immeasurable joy -- and lives

each moment with vigour and happiness. Mom eats a mostly ovo-vegan diet

-- and the squirt gets what we are eating plus breast milk.

 

But Mom is concerned because the little munchkin wants to nurse during

the night. " All the other moms " have stopped doing this.

 

Now, " all the other moms " do a lot of other things we don't do. Like

feed their kids hot dogs. ('nuff said?)

 

But I am wondering:

- Is middle-of-the night nursing something to be concerned about?

- Is it something that can be safely withdrawn (with no setback to

longterm breastfeeding aspirations?).

 

And any ideas how to curb BITING - an increasing problem now that the

little angel has teeth?

 

Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this. I find the discussions on

this list very helpful.

 

~Paul

[Guest guest]

>

>But Mom is concerned because the little munchkin wants to nurse during

>the night. " All the other moms " have stopped doing this.

 

My daughter, who seems to be one year older than your child, turned

her nose up at the breast at 15 months. She stopped nursing in the

middle of the night I would have to say before 9 months. But while

teething and when she woke up and wouldn't go back to sleep because

she was unsettled, I did nurse her. We just always sent Daddy in

first, often rocking would do the trick. By age one, she was nursing

two to three times a day. She ate A LOT. Adult portions.

 

 

>

>- Is middle-of-the night nursing something to be concerned about?

 

For me the issue wasn't nursing, but teaching Eva that we don't

normally get up in the middle of the night.

 

 

>- Is it something that can be safely withdrawn (with no setback to

>longterm breastfeeding aspirations?).

 

I would imagine. Like I said before, I never ended the breastfeeding

relationship, she did. But I did stop going to her in the middle of

the night. Once she decided she was done, she was done.

 

 

>

>And any ideas how to curb BITING - an increasing problem now that the

>little angel has teeth?

 

We, fortunately, never experienced the biting stage.

 

Don't know if this helped.

AA

[Guest guest]

hi paul. i wouldn't pay too much attention to what " all the other mothers "

are doing. there was an awesome article in " mothering " magazine this month

about BFing and it had a lot to say about night nursing. here's are a few

quotes that might be useful.

 

" the chemical composition of human milk has an opiate-like effect; it

induces sleep. so it should come as no surprise that when they want to go

to sleep, babies seek the breast. however, nature's plan causes our society

anxiety. we feel we cannot indulge a baby's need when it involves anything

other than nourishment, and that by doing so we will spoil the baby,

teaching her that she needs the breast to fall asleep. we therefore deny

the child this simple need and teach her to instead cry herself to sleep.

otherwise, there is a lingering concern that she will never learn to sleep

without the breast.

 

" but if babies cannot feed, walk, dress, or speak for themselves, why do we

think they should be able to fall asleep by themselves? and just as babies

outgrow diapers, crawling, babbling, and all other age-appropriate

behaviors, they also outgrow breastfeeding and learn to sleep without the

breast. "

 

" ...[there is no] evidence that babies of a certain age or weight do not

need calories at night. my guess is that the myth that babies should not

need to night-nurse is based on the forumla model. formula is poorly

digested by the human infant, and formula is really only about the food.

artificially fed babies may indeed outgrow the need for bottles in the night

at an early age, but i doubt they outgrow the need for ideal nutrition that

only the breast can provide. "

 

so, my take on it is, breastmilk provides so much more to a growing child

than just nutrition, like comfort, immunity, security, and sleep, but in our

culture we're taught that it's not ok for babies and children to nurse if

it's for anything but to fulfill the basic hunger drive. if your wife is

happy nursing and your baby is happy nursing, i see no need, especially as

early as 13 months, to stop at night. there's no certain age or weight when

a baby " needs " to start sleeping on his or her own. when it's time, when

they are physiologically and emotionally ready, they will. if she's still

feeding at night, i think it's best to assume that she needs to. don't let

other people try to talk you into letting her cry it out. a baby who learns

to sleep at night through crying it out does NOT learn to " comfort himself "

or " self-soothe. " all that baby learns is that when she is distressed,

hungry, lonely, or scared, nobody will help her. there is no comfort there;

just exhaustion and defeat.

 

a lot of moms do night-wean when it reaches a point that the mother's health

is being affected because she's not getting good sleep. it seems like most

moms learn to night-nurse without barely waking up (if they're co-sleeping),

but if the mom has to get up to nurse or if she isn't able to stay mostly

asleep when the baby starts nursing, then problems can develop. this mainly

seems to occur when the parents aren't co-sleeping so the mother has to

actually get out of bed, even go into another room, several times a night to

nurse. so the first line of defense in this case could be to bring the baby

into your bed or into a co-sleeper and go from there.

 

as for biting, i'm not the expert, but it seems like most AP-ing moms i know

who confront this problem try to nip it in the bud as soon as possible.

it's natural for a child to want to exercise its teeth but it's really not

ok and she needs to learn that quickly. most moms i know break the seal and

pop the breast out right away (which babies really do not enjoy) and say

" no! " in a strong, firm voice, and they do this every single time it occurs

-- pull the breast away, say no!, and explain to the baby (even if she's

really too young to understand) that it really hurts. the baby learns

pretty quickly that when it bites down the breast disappears.

 

congrats and much respect to your wife for continuing to nurse your baby!

hope these suggestions help. i really recommend the " mothering " article

called " taking down the almighty bottle " if you can get it.

 

chandelle'

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Paul,

 

I second what Chandelle wrote. Some babies naturally

stop nursing, either during the day or during the

night, but a baby who still wants to nurse at night is

getting something positive from the experience. It's

such a short period of time in a child's life -- even

if it doesn't feel that way at the time! -- that it's

worth trying co-sleeping, etc., to help make the

nursing experience easier for everyone instead of

taking it away altogether.

 

As for biting, yes, definitely, respond immediately by

breaking the suction with a finger and pulling the

breast away while saying " ow! " or " no! " . The baby is

not trying to hurt his/her mom! They just don't know

any better, and biting down feels good to them when

they're sprouting teeth. Make sure there are other

(safe) items to chomp down on readily available.

Maybe the baby just wants to be held safe & warm while

biting down to deal with the pain/novelty of the new

teeth.

 

Liz

[Guest guest]

Both my children slept with me from birth until they were at least 1 year old.

I nursed both of my children during the night whenever they " called " so that I

could get some sleep. They depended on nursing to go to sleep and to go back to

sleep. I wanted my husband to try to console them when they " called " during the

night, but he didn't because he wanted sleep too. Nursing was such an easy way

for us to get sleep. I intended to nurse both of my children for only 1 year,

but they had no interest in soy milk or rice milk as a supplement or replacement

for breast milk. They enjoyed nursing so much! I ended up nursing each of

them for 2 years. Based on my doctor's advice, I stopped nursing my firstborn

when I became pregnant with the second and it nearly " killed " him. He went

through " withdrawal " pains for 2 weeks and it broke my heart. I really missed

nursing him. I slowly weaned my second child at age 2 and the weaning was a

piece of cake. I have no regrets in nursing my children to sleep in spite of

what the " experts " say! They sleep straight through the night now with no

problems at all and in their own beds!

 

When my firstborn bit me, he never did it again because of my uncontrollable

reflex, and I won't elaborate on that one!

 

My second born bit me more than once but after telling him " no " a few times, he

stopped!

 

 

 

 

-

ERB

Tuesday, July 04, 2006 2:00 PM

Re: night nursing

 

 

Paul,

 

I second what Chandelle wrote. Some babies naturally

stop nursing, either during the day or during the

night, but a baby who still wants to nurse at night is

getting something positive from the experience. It's

such a short period of time in a child's life -- even

if it doesn't feel that way at the time! -- that it's

worth trying co-sleeping, etc., to help make the

nursing experience easier for everyone instead of

taking it away altogether.

 

As for biting, yes, definitely, respond immediately by

breaking the suction with a finger and pulling the

breast away while saying " ow! " or " no! " . The baby is

not trying to hurt his/her mom! They just don't know

any better, and biting down feels good to them when

they're sprouting teeth. Make sure there are other

(safe) items to chomp down on readily available.

Maybe the baby just wants to be held safe & warm while

biting down to deal with the pain/novelty of the new

teeth.

 

Liz

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

my daughter night nursed until she was 18 months old (still at every 2 hours

or less some nights). Babies still need the comfort and closeness as they

are learning new things and nothing is more comforting then nursing Your

baby will outgrow night nursing when he/she is ready. Even when they night

wean it doesn't always mean a full night sleep.

 

As for biting, unlatching and saying no worked for us. It was a pretty short

phase and then she matured and we enjoyed 2 1/2 years of nursing until she

self weaned.

 

enjoy this time, it will pass very quickly (even though the nights seem long

now)

 

tara

 

-

" Paul Falvo " <pfalvo

 

Tuesday, July 04, 2006 4:01 AM

night nursing

 

 

> Our little demon (13 months) brings us immeasurable joy -- and lives

> each moment with vigour and happiness. Mom eats a mostly ovo-vegan diet

> -- and the squirt gets what we are eating plus breast milk.

>

> But Mom is concerned because the little munchkin wants to nurse during

> the night. " All the other moms " have stopped doing this.

>

> Now, " all the other moms " do a lot of other things we don't do. Like

> feed their kids hot dogs. ('nuff said?)

>

> But I am wondering:

> - Is middle-of-the night nursing something to be concerned about?

> - Is it something that can be safely withdrawn (with no setback to

> longterm breastfeeding aspirations?).

>

> And any ideas how to curb BITING - an increasing problem now that the

> little angel has teeth?

>

> Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this. I find the discussions on

> this list very helpful.

>

> ~Paul

>

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Paul,

There is no " should " about it. If Mom likes the night nursing and is not

severely annoyed with it, then keep going. But if she is not enjoying it and

it is disrupting her sleep too much, she can certainly stop.

 

We night-weaned all our babies sometime before one year, but after they were

taking in some solids. It does not have to affect your longterm nursing

relationship. When each of our babies (we have three total) were around 6

months old, we moved them out of our room. Sometime around 10 months, I

stopped night nursing, and my husband would go in at night and help them

back to sleep when they woke. So the husband part was critical at this stage

while they were still waking but I was not going to nurse them. If I had

gone in, they never would have accepted not nursing. So it was hard on him

until they got used to it. But they all continued to nurse during the day

for years. If she feels done night nursing, there is no reason not to

support her in that, from my experiences. But certainly don't night wean

just because other people are telling her to do it.

 

>

>

> On Behalf Of Paul Falvo

> Tuesday, July 04, 2006 4:01 AM

>

> night nursing

>

> Our little demon (13 months) brings us immeasurable joy --

> and lives each moment with vigour and happiness. Mom eats a

> mostly ovo-vegan diet

> -- and the squirt gets what we are eating plus breast milk.

>

> But Mom is concerned because the little munchkin wants to

> nurse during the night. " All the other moms " have stopped doing this.

>

> Now, " all the other moms " do a lot of other things we don't

> do. Like feed their kids hot dogs. ('nuff said?)

>

> But I am wondering:

> - Is middle-of-the night nursing something to be concerned about?

> - Is it something that can be safely withdrawn (with no

> setback to longterm breastfeeding aspirations?).

>

> And any ideas how to curb BITING - an increasing problem now

> that the little angel has teeth?

>

> Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this. I find the

> discussions on this list very helpful.

>

> ~Paul

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Paul,

 

My son is 2yrs, 4 months now, and we generally nurse first thing in the morning

and last

thing before bedtime.

 

For a long time, he was waking up in the middle of the night, wanting to nurse.

I was okay

with that when he was teething or not feeling well. But, for the most part, he

was really

getting up as a habit and expected to enjoy overnight nursing. The lack of sleep

was

getting to me, and I wanted him to be able to get through the night on his own.

 

The way my husband and I broke the habit of overnight nursing was that my

husband

went in to comfort him when he woke up during the night. NOTE: Our son was NOT

happy

about this! He cried A LOT in protest, and that was difficult. But within a few

nights, our

son understood that, although he would be comforted, it would not be with the

breast. He

learned to simply go back to sleep.

 

My son was a bit ticked off when he woke up during the night and didn't get

mommy, but

he showed no signs of being upset or otherwise " damaged " in the morning. He was

perfectly fine and ready to go, with no resentments or bad feelings.

 

My son and I are in a comfortable nursing routine. No problem with

moring/bedtime

nursing. On occasion, he'll request a midday nursing. If he wakes up screaming

overnight

now, I don't mind nursing -- as long as it doesn't become a nightly ritual.

 

It can be very difficult to nurse with confidence after the child is a certain

age because of

various cultural pressures. I'm fortunate to have a vegetarian playgroup, and

there are

several toddlers who are still nursing. They nurse more frequently during the

day, and the

one who sleeps in a " family bed " is free to nurse at his convenience during the

night as

well.

 

As long as mom and baby want to continue a nursing relationship, they should do

so. It's

really between the two of them to determine when weaning should occur. Even if

you don't

have personal contact with others who nurse at this stage, at least you can know

that there

are older nurslings out there -- YOU AREN'T ALONE!!!

 

~Valerie

[Guest guest]

We night-weaned my daughter at 18 months. I don't think night-nursing

is something to be concerned about as far as the baby goes - but in my

case, 3-4 hours of nursing every night was making me want to drop her

off on someone's doorstep and drive off to Mexico to live like a king,

and if it's making mamma tired and resentful, it's *not* helping the

kid. If mom's still happy, I wouldn't bother changing anything.

 

We did it by explaining to her that the milk was closed at nighttime

when we were all asleep. Then I moved to sleep in another room, and my

husband offered my daughter hugs and water every time she woke up.

There was a lot of heart-wrenching crying the first night, but after

three nights, she would get up, ask nicely for water, and go back to

sleep. After a week, she'd stopped getting up at all, I moved back

into the bedroom, and she continued to sleep through the night. This

was also when she moved into her own bed of her own accord. (We

co-slept before then, but now she doesn't even want to get into bed

with us if she has a nightmare - she wants us to come over to *her*

bed for the comforting. And I am not complaining! It's the only one of

those Big Issues that she's taken care of all by herself.)

 

As far as it affecting long-term breastfeeding, after a year, I

wouldn't think so - milk supply should be more than established by

then. My daughter just finally weaned at 3 years, six weeks old. I

mean, I'm down with the slow, child-led process, but sometimes you

have to decide when enough's enough. (And by the time I finally said,

" that's it, you drank it all " , she was nursing for exactly 3 minutes a

day, and was perfectly happy trading that for an extra book at

bedtime. More than a month later, I still have milk, which is kind of

interesting.)

 

-- kt

http://coffeeandcables.blogspot.com/

[Guest guest]

We did our " night weaning " the same way -- my husband went in, because

the kids would never have accepted not nursing if I had gone. A side

benefit of this was that with both my boys, they very quickly developed

an even stronger relationship with their dad and were just as likely

(sometimes even more likely) to run to him for comfort and cuddles

during the day. My husband actual enjoyed the nightly " snuggle times " .

 

When babies are smaller, night nursing is vital to keep the baby healthy

and growing and keep the mother's milk supply strong (and it keeps

ovulation at bay longer too!). At your daughter's age it's not vital,

but it's also not the slightest bit harmful and unless your wife is

feeling that she wants it to stop, she shouldn't worry about it. And, by

the way, both my sons continued nursing long after the night-weaning.

Heather

 

leena wrote:

>

> Paul,

> There is no " should " about it. If Mom likes the night nursing and is not

> severely annoyed with it, then keep going. But if she is not enjoying

> it and

> it is disrupting her sleep too much, she can certainly stop.

>

> We night-weaned all our babies sometime before one year, but after

> they were

> taking in some solids. It does not have to affect your longterm nursing

> relationship. When each of our babies (we have three total) were around 6

> months old, we moved them out of our room. Sometime around 10 months, I

> stopped night nursing, and my husband would go in at night and help them

> back to sleep when they woke. So the husband part was critical at this

> stage

> while they were still waking but I was not going to nurse them. If I had

> gone in, they never would have accepted not nursing. So it was hard on him

> until they got used to it. But they all continued to nurse during the day

> for years. If she feels done night nursing, there is no reason not to

> support her in that, from my experiences. But certainly don't night wean

> just because other people are telling her to do it.

>

> >

> > <%40>

> > [

> <%40>] On Behalf Of Paul Falvo

> > Tuesday, July 04, 2006 4:01 AM

> > <%40>

> > night nursing

> >

> > Our little demon (13 months) brings us immeasurable joy --

> > and lives each moment with vigour and happiness. Mom eats a

> > mostly ovo-vegan diet

> > -- and the squirt gets what we are eating plus breast milk.

> >

> > But Mom is concerned because the little munchkin wants to

> > nurse during the night. " All the other moms " have stopped doing this.

> >

> > Now, " all the other moms " do a lot of other things we don't

> > do. Like feed their kids hot dogs. ('nuff said?)

> >

> > But I am wondering:

> > - Is middle-of-the night nursing something to be concerned about?

> > - Is it something that can be safely withdrawn (with no

> > setback to longterm breastfeeding aspirations?).

> >

> > And any ideas how to curb BITING - an increasing problem now

> > that the little angel has teeth?

> >

> > Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this. I find the

> > discussions on this list very helpful.

> >

> > ~Paul

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

When I was ready for my youngest to stop nursing at night we got my husband

to take him in to bed with us and put him on his side of the bed with a

bedrail on and my husband would sleep between me and the baby. That way he

still got to come in to bed with us but he didn't have to nurse. He

continued to wake for a while but it didn't break my sleep as much that way

and I felt more rested (important since I went back to work when he was 1 yr

old out of necessity). He easily moved into his own bed for the whole night

when he was 2 and got to sleep in the bottom bed of bunk beds with his

brother (8) in the top bunk.

 

 

 

Jacqueline

 

 

 

http://adhdnme.blogspot.com

 

_____

 

On

Behalf Of Valerie

July 5, 2006 2:20 PM

 

Re: night nursing

 

 

 

Hi Paul,

 

My son is 2yrs, 4 months now, and we generally nurse first thing in the

morning and last

thing before bedtime.

 

For a long time, he was waking up in the middle of the night, wanting to

nurse. I was okay

with that when he was teething or not feeling well. But, for the most part,

he was really

getting up as a habit and expected to enjoy overnight nursing. The lack of

sleep was

getting to me, and I wanted him to be able to get through the night on his

own.

 

The way my husband and I broke the habit of overnight nursing was that my

husband

went in to comfort him when he woke up during the night. NOTE: Our son was

NOT happy

about this! He cried A LOT in protest, and that was difficult. But within a

few nights, our

son understood that, although he would be comforted, it would not be with

the breast. He

learned to simply go back to sleep.

 

My son was a bit ticked off when he woke up during the night and didn't get

mommy, but

he showed no signs of being upset or otherwise " damaged " in the morning. He

was

perfectly fine and ready to go, with no resentments or bad feelings.

 

My son and I are in a comfortable nursing routine. No problem with

moring/bedtime

nursing. On occasion, he'll request a midday nursing. If he wakes up

screaming overnight

now, I don't mind nursing -- as long as it doesn't become a nightly ritual.

 

It can be very difficult to nurse with confidence after the child is a

certain age because of

various cultural pressures. I'm fortunate to have a vegetarian playgroup,

and there are

several toddlers who are still nursing. They nurse more frequently during

the day, and the

one who sleeps in a " family bed " is free to nurse at his convenience during

the night as

well.

 

As long as mom and baby want to continue a nursing relationship, they should

do so. It's

really between the two of them to determine when weaning should occur. Even

if you don't

have personal contact with others who nurse at this stage, at least you can

know that there

are older nurslings out there -- YOU AREN'T ALONE!!!

 

~Valerie

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Paul Falvo said:

> But I am wondering:

> - Is middle-of-the night nursing something to be concerned about?

> And any ideas how to curb BITING - an increasing problem now that the

> little angel has teeth?

 

Paul:

 

I have some experience in this because I nursed my dd until she was 4 years,

3 months old! She co-slept with my husband and me the entire time. It made

my life so much easier to do that. I agree with everyone else about curbing

the biting. When dd started biting, I'd pull away my breast, look right at

her, and say firmly, " No. " After doing this a few times, she stopped

biting. Worked like a charm!

 

I night-nursed my dd the entire 4+ years, and I now regret it. I never

thought I would nurse for that long, but dd had NO interest in weaning.

Just after her 4th birthday, she developed a horrible ear infection (her

first) and had to go on antibiotics. A month later, she got another

infection on the same side. Her pediatrician is very supportive of her

vegan diet and toddler nursing, but he told me NOT to night-nurse because of

the potential ear infection and cavity problems. I pooh-poohed him because

I'd attended La Leche League meetings since dd was born and had been told

that breast milk did not cause cavities or ear infections. A month after

the second ear infection, she got a third--on the same side again. When she

got the fourth one, my husband and I had to admit that it must be from night

nursing, so I weaned her that day. (She'd been nursing only at night and in

the morning by that point.) It was tough for both my dd and me, but I knew

it was the right thing, and I also knew that I wouldn't be starving her.

She was over 4 years old! Her ear infection cleared up, and she's never had

another one.

 

A few months after that, I noticed what looked like a cavity in one of her

teeth. Turns out, it was a cavity, and she had five more! I was shocked

and upset. The dentist asked if I fed her a bottle at night, gave her a lot

of sugary candy, etc. When I said no, she was puzzled as to why she had so

many cavities. I relucantly explained the night nursing, and the dentist

said that was what caused the cavities. She's seen it many times. I asked

her why La Leche League said that breast milk has natural antibodies to

prevent cavities, she laughed and said, " That's just not true. " I was not

happy about this information. She had to have 3 silver caps put on and 3

other fillings (total cost--$1200).

 

So, beware of night nursing. I have learned my lesson. Although I'm not

having any more children, if I did, I wouldn't night nurse past a certain

age.

 

Sheri

[Guest guest]

Dear Paul! Lots of fun stuff you guys are working with. As many have

said, having a friend or spouse put your child to sleep is a great

option. When my youngest was 15 months I had a friend come over to

put her down for her afternoon nap. After a couple of days everything

was settled. On the biting, i slid my pinky into the corner of her

mouth and turned my finger width ways. This broke the suction and

stated owww no bite. After a couple of times it worked wonders. The

babies don't like to see mom hurt. Good luck! Judy S

 

 

 

, Paul Falvo <pfalvo wrote:

>

> Our little demon (13 months) brings us immeasurable joy -- and lives

> each moment with vigour and happiness. Mom eats a mostly ovo-vegan

diet

> -- and the squirt gets what we are eating plus breast milk.

>

> But Mom is concerned because the little munchkin wants to nurse

during

> the night. " All the other moms " have stopped doing this.

>

> Now, " all the other moms " do a lot of other things we don't do. Like

> feed their kids hot dogs. ('nuff said?)

>

> But I am wondering:

> - Is middle-of-the night nursing something to be concerned about?

> - Is it something that can be safely withdrawn (with no setback to

> longterm breastfeeding aspirations?).

>

> And any ideas how to curb BITING - an increasing problem now that

the

> little angel has teeth?

>

> Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this. I find the discussions

on

> this list very helpful.

>

> ~Paul

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks so much, Chandelle, AA, Liz, AD, Leena, Heather, Tara, Sheri,

Valerie, KT, Jacqueline and Judy for your responses to my question.

 

I read all your messages out loud to my wife. She doesn't " do " email

lists -- but she said, " that's a cool website! "

 

Living as we do in sub-arctic Canada, we're very glad to have this

online community and know we are not alone as veg-parents.

 

I am especially grateful since as a Dad I seem to have even fewer

resources and support than Mom.

 

We noticed our little darling started nursing more when she started

walking -- a little reassurance in an expanding world! Glad to know we

can cut back on night nursing with no detriment to overall nursing. Our

nursling often sleeps with us; but, sometimes we put her in a nearby

bed. When that happens, we will send Dad in if she wakes during the

night -- much less temptation to nurse.

 

No matter how egalitarian we try to be, Mom always ends up doing more.

But since our daughter was born I have been the expert " sand man " -- and

I will try to maintain my ability to induce sleep!

 

Liz mentioned the importance of safe things to chomp down on -- in this

plastic-infested world, I agree!

 

Take care, all

~Paul

 

--

www.mackenziewild.ca