GA aquarium - long post

July 16, 2006

I have tried replying before but my posts aren't coming through. Is

anyone else having this problem? How do I fix it? Oh well, gave me a

chance to add a PS

Thanks bunches.

Earthmother,

I totally agree with the PETA article and your comments. I am quite

familiar with behavioral studies, habitat enrichment, stereotypies

and the induced medical problems of confinement, many of which stem

from physical abuse. There are several small " zoos " around here that

we refuse to visit because I can see first hand that all their money

goes into making more money and the entertainment value as opposed to

conservation. This is where I began waffling when I try to make

decisions to visit places that do have good (validated) conservation

records. I worked for the US Dept of Interior while in veterinary

college. We re-introduced the Red Wolf that had been almost hunted to

extinction. If it was not for the intervention and the housing at

zoos, these animals would have disappeared while new habitat,

legislation and public education were pursued. Their numbers

increased significantly in the first year of the release and the

program has been very successful. That same year, I was involved in

the tail-end of the reintroduction of the Southern Bald Eagle. Once

again, this was a very successful program. The Southern Bald Eagle is

not even threatened now. I participated in wildlife rescue and rehab

during vet college and did a rotation at a large zoo and aquarium

that was a member of CITES and did local wildlife rehab as well.

While there were many opinions and types of people employed, I found

the experience to be very positive. Still, I have trouble with many

practices such as caging non-threatened animals for entertainment and

babies for profit. It's justifying a means to an end. Also, my

experience came at a time when there were little preventive measures.

Now, much more is being done on large scale like conservatory parks

where the threatened animals actually live and better laws to protect

them. There are many success stories here too. I wish all of the

money a zoo spends could go to these projects. But, unfortunately the

zoos wouldn't have the money if it wasn't for the entertainment.

Still it is hard to accept the behavior behind the dollar.

So, this is why I am at such a crossroads – I know responsible

stewardship has great rewards and that it is out there to some

degree. I would love to promote it and give my child an opportunity

to develop a caring mentality. It is just much harder than I thought

it would be. I can handle birthday parties, play dates and omni,

opinionated family but this is hard as it is coming from within our

family unit.

I agree with Bonnie that it could be a positive educational

experience for dd in the long run. I do worry that a positive memory

in someone so young can carry a lot of weight against vegan values

later. It may make it harder to understand the negative if she had a

lot of fun. But, for many reasons, I have made the decision not to

fight dh on this. And his " all for big business money, " Atkins

follower father will be there. I have tried to find reasons for going

and I have tried to find a technical argument for dh as to why I am

not going, hoping it would change his mind. Even though I know from

my studies and experience that the habitats and protocols for the

whales and sharks are horribly inappropriate, I guess I will go to be

there for dd. But, I will ask dh to go to the PETA info booth with me

if it is still there.

Thanks for your responses. I needed the support of mothers with the

same vision. Sorry for the long posts.

Carrol

PS DH agreed to visit the PETA booth and informed his father that we

would be doing such. He also told him I would be asking a lot of

questions and teaching dd. I am pretty good at comebacks and

controlling my FIL's comments so I should have control of the

situation. But, I have to go to the aquarium for that.

Cindy P. said

most children will be so captivated by the sights that the message

to check out the facility will be lost.

I agree this is a strong possibility even at her age, or maybe

especially at her age. DH and I both have very strong memories and

feelings from the time we were 2 and younger. I think I finally got

him to understand this a little today.

One of the things I am doing is creating little worksheets and

arts/crafts to do with her that explain how important habitat is and

how their habitat is different from ours or an aquarium. We are avid

readers and she begs me to read to her " all of my books " every day (I

plan to homeschool so we easily have 1000s). She loves whales so I am

hoping to create empathy before we go so she can see the difference

while we are there. I don't want to upset her but I do want her to

know the truth. DH isn't against this. I just wished he would wait

another year or two. He doesn't understand how young three really is.

Liz –thread about this last year

I remember some posts and flaming on one of the boards last year but

I can't find the info on this board in the search function. Do you

have dates or links?

Thanks!

July 16, 2006

it sounds like you've put a ton of really thoughtful discussion into this

with yourself and others and i think that's awesome! it's a personal

decision that has to be made for everyone. i despise the " vegan police " who

pass judgment on others and i swore the day i went vegan that i wouldn't be

like that. i went to the zoo while i was in labor with my first child and

also took him when he was three months old. it was the last time we ever

went or ever will go; it was a horrible experience, and we were newly vegan

so our eyes were very much opened to it. but i am a major animal lover and

understand the pleasure in zoos. everyone needs to find a reasonable

compromise and ultimately we all need to live with ourselves and our own

decisions. i think it's really cool that peta has a booth there and that

will surely be educational for your daughter. i think it would also be good

to maybe take her to a sanctuary or reserve and show her the " other side, "

animals in their natural habitats in an environment whose sole purpose is

preservation of the species in their own homes. here in utah we have a

wonderful sanctuary called ching farm, run by a husband-wife team who take

in broken down and abused farm, zoo, and testing animals. it is an awesome

place. i do volunteer work there and i take my son, who is 16 months.

we've always wanted to do something like this ourselves but it's not

feasible right now. so by taking him there i know that right from the

beginning he is seeing animals that are usually used for food and

entertainment in their own homes living their own lives, and it's really

wonderful. it's better than a zoo because he can actually walk around with

these animals and touch and play with them and see their delightful antics

first-hand (like when the chickens " celebrate " after laying an egg -- it's

hilarious). he went to visit my hard-core omni parents for a week and i had

to lay down some pretty strict ground rules, which they handled well because

they adore him and want to be able to see him and know that i'm militant

enough to keep him away if they don't respect us. one of my rules was that

i didn't want him to go to the zoo, so my parents, who live in arizona, took

him to a nature reserve instead, where he got to see lizards, coyotes,

rabbits, all kinds of desert life. we did the same thing in washington and

he got to see all the life that is indigenous to that area. i think it

really is more valuable as a teaching tool to show the true diversity of an

area rather than a place where a lot of bizarre exotic animals are kept in

cages not doing much of anything. anyway, i'm not trying to tell you that

this is better or whatever, i'm just saying, there are so many wonderful

ways to teach children about animals, and even if she goes to a zoo or

aquarium that can be a terrific teaching opportunity for YOU, to explain to

her where those creatures actually live and how they actually live and maybe

introduce her in a small and gentle way to the idea of " for-profit "

entertainment. anyway, good luck!

On 7/16/06, rtillmansmail <rtillmansmail wrote:

>

> I have tried replying before but my posts aren't coming through. Is

> anyone else having this problem? How do I fix it? Oh well, gave me a

> chance to add a PS

> Thanks bunches.

>

> Earthmother,

>

> I totally agree with the PETA article and your comments. I am quite

> familiar with behavioral studies, habitat enrichment, stereotypies

> and the induced medical problems of confinement, many of which stem

> from physical abuse. There are several small " zoos " around here that

> we refuse to visit because I can see first hand that all their money

> goes into making more money and the entertainment value as opposed to

> conservation. This is where I began waffling when I try to make

> decisions to visit places that do have good (validated) conservation

> records. I worked for the US Dept of Interior while in veterinary

> college. We re-introduced the Red Wolf that had been almost hunted to

> extinction. If it was not for the intervention and the housing at

> zoos, these animals would have disappeared while new habitat,

> legislation and public education were pursued. Their numbers

> increased significantly in the first year of the release and the

> program has been very successful. That same year, I was involved in

> the tail-end of the reintroduction of the Southern Bald Eagle. Once

> again, this was a very successful program. The Southern Bald Eagle is

> not even threatened now. I participated in wildlife rescue and rehab

> during vet college and did a rotation at a large zoo and aquarium

> that was a member of CITES and did local wildlife rehab as well.

> While there were many opinions and types of people employed, I found

> the experience to be very positive. Still, I have trouble with many

> practices such as caging non-threatened animals for entertainment and

> babies for profit. It's justifying a means to an end. Also, my

> experience came at a time when there were little preventive measures.

> Now, much more is being done on large scale like conservatory parks

> where the threatened animals actually live and better laws to protect

> them. There are many success stories here too. I wish all of the

> money a zoo spends could go to these projects. But, unfortunately the

> zoos wouldn't have the money if it wasn't for the entertainment.

> Still it is hard to accept the behavior behind the dollar.

>

> So, this is why I am at such a crossroads – I know responsible

> stewardship has great rewards and that it is out there to some

> degree. I would love to promote it and give my child an opportunity

> to develop a caring mentality. It is just much harder than I thought

> it would be. I can handle birthday parties, play dates and omni,

> opinionated family but this is hard as it is coming from within our

> family unit.

>

> I agree with Bonnie that it could be a positive educational

> experience for dd in the long run. I do worry that a positive memory

> in someone so young can carry a lot of weight against vegan values

> later. It may make it harder to understand the negative if she had a

> lot of fun. But, for many reasons, I have made the decision not to

> fight dh on this. And his " all for big business money, " Atkins

> follower father will be there. I have tried to find reasons for going

> and I have tried to find a technical argument for dh as to why I am

> not going, hoping it would change his mind. Even though I know from

> my studies and experience that the habitats and protocols for the

> whales and sharks are horribly inappropriate, I guess I will go to be

> there for dd. But, I will ask dh to go to the PETA info booth with me

> if it is still there.

>

> Thanks for your responses. I needed the support of mothers with the

> same vision. Sorry for the long posts.

>

> Carrol

>

> PS DH agreed to visit the PETA booth and informed his father that we

> would be doing such. He also told him I would be asking a lot of

> questions and teaching dd. I am pretty good at comebacks and

> controlling my FIL's comments so I should have control of the

> situation. But, I have to go to the aquarium for that.

>

> Cindy P. said

> most children will be so captivated by the sights that the message

> to check out the facility will be lost.

>

> I agree this is a strong possibility even at her age, or maybe

> especially at her age. DH and I both have very strong memories and

> feelings from the time we were 2 and younger. I think I finally got

> him to understand this a little today.

>

> One of the things I am doing is creating little worksheets and

> arts/crafts to do with her that explain how important habitat is and

> how their habitat is different from ours or an aquarium. We are avid

> readers and she begs me to read to her " all of my books " every day (I

> plan to homeschool so we easily have 1000s). She loves whales so I am

> hoping to create empathy before we go so she can see the difference

> while we are there. I don't want to upset her but I do want her to

> know the truth. DH isn't against this. I just wished he would wait

> another year or two. He doesn't understand how young three really is.

>

> Liz –thread about this last year

> I remember some posts and flaming on one of the boards last year but

> I can't find the info on this board in the search function. Do you

> have dates or links?

>

> Thanks!

>

--

" Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. "

--Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.

" Thou shalt not be a victim.

Thou shalt not be a perpetrator.

Above all, thou shalt not be a bystander. "

--Holocaust Museum

July 16, 2006

Hi Carrol,

The fact that you are trying so hard to navigate through these complicated

issues makes you a good veg mommy!

Here's kind of a long reply... please bear with me:)

I agree with much of what people have said regarding this issue. And I think

you are probably right to follow your gut feeling. Most likely, the aquarium is

using the " shark rescued from being someone's dinner " and the " class II

endangerment " level as a selling point, rather than as a genuine mission

statement to help these species.

Personally, I am of the opinion that it is not ethical to capture or even

" rescue " animals and then charge people money to see them- even if the exhibitor

is claiming the $ will go towards helping more animals. What about the animals

in captivity? How are they being helped? The principle of animal rights is

similar to that of human rights in that it entails the belief that every life is

as valuable as the next. The idea that we can " ethically harm a few to save

many " is a more utilitarian principle that generally as a society we do not

accept when applied to humans... so how could we apply that to AR views without

being necessarily speciesist? (Of course, only you can answer these questions

for yourself... but hopefully these philosophical ramblings will spark a healthy

internal discussion)

This is why, by the way, " accredited " animal sanctuaries are not allowed to

charge the public to view their rescued animals, although they are allowed to

accept donations if people volunteer them.

http://www.asaanimalsanctuaries.org/Criteria/criteria.htm

Okay, with all of that said... I remember going to zoos and aquariums as a child

and my mother (who was not AR) would always point out to me that the animals

were not in their natural habitiat and that they would be much happier if they

were, and sometimes she explained which needs of theirs were not being met and

why. I guess she knew it instinctively somehow... Because she pointed it out, I

was able to recognize it more and more on my own which evenutally, I believe,

supported my adaptation to a vegan lifestyle. And even though she was somewhat

of a hypocrite (as we all are at times) the part about the animals' needs for

natural habitat and freedom stuck with me and " felt right " so I accepted it

pretty easily.

It is difficult for me to say whether or not seeing the exotic animals in person

contributed at all to my sense of compassion for animals. I think the main

thing that contributed were my mother's comments, which could have easily been

given in the context of a book or videotape or even seeing animals in their

natural environment.

So my point is... if you and your daughter MUST to go to the aquarium, (from my

experience) you CAN still give her good info without traumatizing her... and

there is a good chance it will help support her veg*anism throughout her life.

But if there is a way you can AVOID supporting the aquarium altogether, that

would be best for everyone involved;)

Good luck!

However,

rtillmansmail <rtillmansmail wrote: