Guest guest Posted September 19, 2006 Report Share Posted September 19, 2006 Are some of us too vegan? The question comes up in many ways -- direct or indirect -- talking about hidden ingredients in processed foods, ordering food in restaurants, interacting with omnivores, eating honey, wearing wool, buying tires, etc. Do we draw a line? And if we do, should we criticize others who have stricter vegan standards for themselves? [Full disclosure: I'm vegan. I don't eat honey. I stopped buying leather, but not wool (yet). I haven't researched all the non-vegan ingredients, and in restaurants I adopt a " don't ask, don't tell " policy when I order a veggie burger which may not be vegan.] Personally, I admire vegans who try to better and better align their behavior with their principles. And I wonder if the people critical of stricter vegans are equally critical of others who set strict standards for themselves? Do they go to their church/synagogue/temple and criticize others who are trying to deepen their devotion? Do they go to the ball parks and criticize others who are trying to improve their game? Do they go to the universities and criticize others who are trying to learn more? Do they tell the churchgoer, athelete, student that they are scaring other people away with their quest for " 100% " , for " perfection " ? Or do they look to the saints, stars, and scholars as sources of inspiration, of what is possible, whether or not they ever equal that dedication and achievement. I've noticed a tendency in many people to believe themselves to be " in the sweet spot " (doing just right)and everybody else who isn't doing the same as them is either not doing enough or doing too much. But it doesn't have to be that way. Just as I think most of us would agree that it's okay to admit to ourselves that there are those who have meditated, practiced, studied more than we have, we can acknowledge that there are those who have worked harder at being vegan than we have, and I say " more power to them " . I see no reason to think that people with stricter standards of veganism are condescending, demanding, or obnoxious, any more than to think that those with less strict standards are lazy or apathetic. As for me, I try to be ever more mindful about what I do, including what I eat, wear, etc. If there are people out there walking on water, I appreciate it when they freeze the water behind them so I can follow more easily. And when an omnivore tells me they could never be vegan because they couldn't give up eating honey, driving a car, wearing leather, or whatever, I tell them that veganism is a journey toward " least harm " , not a destination of " no harm " . If they can go to church, play ball, and study ... they can go vegan, too! - Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2006 Report Share Posted September 19, 2006 Very good. Well put. Kadee Sedtal Alan <soy_decaf_latte wrote: Are some of us too vegan? The question comes up in many ways -- direct or indirect -- talking about hidden ingredients in processed foods, ordering food in restaurants, interacting with omnivores, eating honey, wearing wool, buying tires, etc. Do we draw a line? And if we do, should we criticize others who have stricter vegan standards for themselves? [Full disclosure: I'm vegan. I don't eat honey. I stopped buying leather, but not wool (yet). I haven't researched all the non-vegan ingredients, and in restaurants I adopt a " don't ask, don't tell " policy when I order a veggie burger which may not be vegan.] Personally, I admire vegans who try to better and better align their behavior with their principles. And I wonder if the people critical of stricter vegans are equally critical of others who set strict standards for themselves? Do they go to their church/synagogue/temple and criticize others who are trying to deepen their devotion? Do they go to the ball parks and criticize others who are trying to improve their game? Do they go to the universities and criticize others who are trying to learn more? Do they tell the churchgoer, athelete, student that they are scaring other people away with their quest for " 100% " , for " perfection " ? Or do they look to the saints, stars, and scholars as sources of inspiration, of what is possible, whether or not they ever equal that dedication and achievement. I've noticed a tendency in many people to believe themselves to be " in the sweet spot " (doing just right)and everybody else who isn't doing the same as them is either not doing enough or doing too much. But it doesn't have to be that way. Just as I think most of us would agree that it's okay to admit to ourselves that there are those who have meditated, practiced, studied more than we have, we can acknowledge that there are those who have worked harder at being vegan than we have, and I say " more power to them " . I see no reason to think that people with stricter standards of veganism are condescending, demanding, or obnoxious, any more than to think that those with less strict standards are lazy or apathetic. As for me, I try to be ever more mindful about what I do, including what I eat, wear, etc. If there are people out there walking on water, I appreciate it when they freeze the water behind them so I can follow more easily. And when an omnivore tells me they could never be vegan because they couldn't give up eating honey, driving a car, wearing leather, or whatever, I tell them that veganism is a journey toward " least harm " , not a destination of " no harm " . If they can go to church, play ball, and study ... they can go vegan, too! - Alan How low will we go? Check out Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2006 Report Share Posted September 19, 2006 Alan, I totally agree with your last paragraph, that one should always tell people that every little bit they can do will help the animals, however much or little as that is. Did you read the vegan outreach articles I sent? I don't criticize people for being too vegan, but it is important to keep it in mind if one's goal is also to encourage other people to stop supporting animal cruelty. Your examples of athletes or students is not the same, as they are not as concerned about others following their example. If you are vegan for the sake of your own spiritual path, fine, do whatever works for you. But if, like me, you want to encourage others not to buy the products of factory farming (for indeed the horrors of factory farming will continue unabated as long as the vast majority of Americans vote for it with their pocketbooks), it is important to make veganism look do-able to others. Dr. Michael Greger gives a funny but great lecture in which he says, " if you're going to avoid honey or look for every last bit of monoglycerides that might be animal based, fine, but don't let anyone see you doing it! " He's being funny, but his point is that sometimes meat eaters use that extreme veganism to just say, " well that's too intense for me - I don't want to be some crazy label reader - pass the steak and ice cream please! " If you haven't read it, please do read the vegan outreach article: http://www.veganoutreach.org/howvegan.html Again, all that I wrote only applies if you want to encourage others to stop abusing and killing animals. If you are not concerned with that, none of the above would apply. But it is important to acknowledge that very strict veganism might turn off someone who currently is eating vast amounts of meat and dairy, and might have been willing to decrease that in a step toward veganism. For full disclosure as well, I also do not buy wool or honey, but also don't ask if there's dairy or honey when I eat bread in restaurants. Leena > > > On Behalf Of Alan >Monday, September 18, 2006 8:43 PM > > As Vegan as I want to be > >Are some of us too vegan? > >The question comes up in many ways -- direct or indirect -- >talking about hidden ingredients in processed foods, ordering >food in restaurants, interacting with omnivores, eating honey, >wearing wool, buying tires, etc. Do we draw a line? And if >we do, should we criticize others who have stricter vegan >standards for themselves? > >[Full disclosure: I'm vegan. I don't eat honey. I stopped >buying leather, but not wool (yet). I haven't researched all >the non-vegan ingredients, and in restaurants I adopt a " don't >ask, don't tell " >policy when I order a veggie burger which may not be vegan.] > >Personally, I admire vegans who try to better and better align >their behavior with their principles. And I wonder if the >people critical of stricter vegans are equally critical of >others who set strict standards for themselves? > >Do they go to their church/synagogue/temple and criticize >others who are trying to deepen their devotion? Do they go to >the ball parks and criticize others who are trying to improve >their game? Do they go to the universities and criticize >others who are trying to learn more? > >Do they tell the churchgoer, athelete, student that they are >scaring other people away with their quest for " 100% " , for > " perfection " ? Or do they look to the saints, stars, and >scholars as sources of inspiration, of what is possible, >whether or not they ever equal that dedication and achievement. > >I've noticed a tendency in many people to believe themselves >to be " in the sweet spot " (doing just right)and everybody else >who isn't doing the same as them is either not doing enough or >doing too much. But it doesn't have to be that way. Just as >I think most of us would agree that it's okay to admit to >ourselves that there are those who have meditated, practiced, >studied more than we have, we can acknowledge that there are >those who have worked harder at being vegan than we have, and >I say " more power to them " . > >I see no reason to think that people with stricter standards >of veganism are condescending, demanding, or obnoxious, any >more than to think that those with less strict standards are >lazy or apathetic. > >As for me, I try to be ever more mindful about what I do, >including what I eat, wear, etc. If there are people out >there walking on water, I appreciate it when they freeze the >water behind them so I can follow more easily. > >And when an omnivore tells me they could never be vegan >because they couldn't give up eating honey, driving a car, >wearing leather, or whatever, I tell them that veganism is a >journey toward " least harm " , not a destination of " no harm " . >If they can go to church, play ball, and study ... they can go >vegan, too! > >- Alan > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2006 Report Share Posted September 19, 2006 Well said, Alan! Liz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2006 Report Share Posted September 19, 2006 yes, well-said. i don't think there's such a thing as too vegan, unless you're just making yourself miserable. making yourself miserable probably means you're making other people miserable, and that doesn't help the animals or the earth. this is where the vegan police come in for me...people who set such impossible standards for themselves and then suffer because they'll never reach them, or who, conversely, believe themselves to be in the " sweet spot " you mentioned...and then treat everyone else like crap who isn't as enlightened as them. i think, once you reach the point of being arrogant about how great a vegan (or anything else) you are, it's stopped being a healthy lifestyle and yup, you're too vegan, or too something anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2006 Report Share Posted September 20, 2006 Leena, Yes, I'm familiar with Matt Ball's essay. Clearly, Matt Ball and the other folks at Vegan Outreach have not had the good fortune to meet the vegans I know. Instead, they readily accept the viewpoint of omnivores grasping for excuses and somebody to blame for their inaction ... I can almost hear them whining, " I can't eat less meat because that vegan won't eat honey! " Matt Ball, fighting a phantom epidemic of extremists, blames vegans with strong convictions for omnivores reluctance to adopt a more plant-based diet. I'm sure that, like all people (as mentioned by Earthmother), there are a few presumptuous and arrogant vegans; but from my experience, they are the exception and not the rule. It's fine to remind people to be polite, considerate, and respectful when encountering people with different opinions. But let's not ask people to compromise their values, or hide them in the closet as though they are something to be ashamed of. Just tell them to lighten up. So, is there a more positive way to encourage social change than attacking our friends for being " too vegan " ? I believe so. Just to cite one such example, check out Carol J. Adams' book, " Living Among Meat Eaters. " Its premise is that omnivores are " blocked vegetarians " , and it is filled with tips to help them keep their focus on themselves (where it belongs), and not on us. - Alan P.S. Carol Adams is pictured on the back of her book wearing a T- shirt that says, " Very Vegetarian " . Sounds nice. , " leena " <leena wrote: > > Alan, > I totally agree with your last paragraph, that one should always tell people > that every little bit they can do will help the animals, however much or > little as that is. > > Did you read the vegan outreach articles I sent? > > I don't criticize people for being too vegan, but it is important to keep it > in mind if one's goal is also to encourage other people to stop supporting > animal cruelty. Your examples of athletes or students is not the same, as > they are not as concerned about others following their example. If you are > vegan for the sake of your own spiritual path, fine, do whatever works for > you. But if, like me, you want to encourage others not to buy the products > of factory farming (for indeed the horrors of factory farming will continue > unabated as long as the vast majority of Americans vote for it with their > pocketbooks), it is important to make veganism look do-able to others. Dr. > Michael Greger gives a funny but great lecture in which he says, " if you're > going to avoid honey or look for every last bit of monoglycerides that might > be animal based, fine, but don't let anyone see you doing it! " He's being > funny, but his point is that sometimes meat eaters use that extreme veganism > to just say, " well that's too intense for me - I don't want to be some crazy > label reader - pass the steak and ice cream please! " > If you haven't read it, please do read the vegan outreach article: > http://www.veganoutreach.org/howvegan.html > > Again, all that I wrote only applies if you want to encourage others to stop > abusing and killing animals. If you are not concerned with that, none of the > above would apply. But it is important to acknowledge that very strict > veganism might turn off someone who currently is eating vast amounts of meat > and dairy, and might have been willing to decrease that in a step toward > veganism. > > For full disclosure as well, I also do not buy wool or honey, but also don't > ask if there's dairy or honey when I eat bread in restaurants. > Leena > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2006 Report Share Posted September 20, 2006 ALAN - Thank you for your articulate statements. I remember some of your comments from the last time this topic was discussed. LEENA - You said " Your examples of athletes or students is not the same, as they are not as concerned about others following their example " Alan's example is appropriate. Many students and atheletes care. These people are called mentors and some later become teachers or counselors. This example works regardless if the person is a student of art, music, academics or atheletics. I mentored from elementary school through my doctoral program in all these areas (amd continue to do so although I am no longer an enrolled student). You also said, " Again, all that I wrote only applies if you want to encourage others to stop abusing and killing animals. If you are not concerned with that, none of the above would apply " Maybe you didn't mean this to sound the way I interpreted this. It sounds as if you are judging those you find too strict for your standards and finding them guilty of not being compassionate or at least compassionate enough. One can believe just as strongly in compassion as health or spiritualilty. I have found that, in many people, these goals/values eventually become inseparable. Further, you said " it is important to acknowledge that very strict veganism might turn off someone who currently is eating vast amounts of meat and dairy, and might have been willing to decrease that in a step toward veganism. " I agree that different people have different learning styles so to speak. Therefore, some may need someone telling them all the time it is okay to transition or to chose to stay somewhere in the middle. In my experience, most of the people I have encountered were able to make this decision on their own with only one or two encouraging remarks from me. My husband and I have been responsible for many diets taking a humane turn. Some have become veg or vegan and others only more compassionate and healthier. But we have never compromised our values in reaching others - it is not a competetion. In fact, the most hard core anti-vegs that have adopted a new diet because of us did so because we remain strict and don't get in their face. We are not extremists and have never met any. I know there are radical vegans but these type of personalities, rather passionate or otherwise, exist in many walks of life, not only vegansim. The arrogant, defensive and vocal in my circle have always been the omnivorous and those nearly carnivorous. We each have to come to a place in our lives where we are ready to accept change before we can make change. While I would like to see everyone become vegan tomorrow (or come around to all my views for that matter), it isn't going to happen. One person may say veganism is out of his reach because he can't be strict and another person may need to see someone living without compromising her values - it certainly helped me. In the meantime, I believe in education and not dilution of terms, as I have said in the past in regard to this topic. I have definitely been affected more than one time because of others' misconception of the term vegan " because after all so and so is a vegan and he eats... " Don't I count somewhere in the scheme of things or are new recruits the only goal? Do I not deserve compassion and respect? Most people react but do not make irreversible decisions based upon one encounter. The more I stand out by my label reading, the more people I can nudge. When someone reaches a critical mass for change, education and honesty, not " dumbing down " terms and information is key for that person to reach a comfortable place. Carrol <soy_decaf_latte wrote: > > Leena, > > Yes, I'm familiar with Matt Ball's essay. Clearly, Matt Ball and > the other folks at Vegan Outreach have not had the good fortune to > meet the vegans I know. Instead, they readily accept the viewpoint > of omnivores grasping for excuses and somebody to blame for their > inaction ... I can almost hear them whining, " I can't eat less meat > because that vegan won't eat honey! " > > Matt Ball, fighting a phantom epidemic of extremists, blames vegans > with strong convictions for omnivores reluctance to adopt a more > plant-based diet. > > I'm sure that, like all people (as mentioned by Earthmother), there > are a few presumptuous and arrogant vegans; but from my experience, > they are the exception and not the rule. It's fine to remind people > to be polite, considerate, and respectful when encountering people > with different opinions. But let's not ask people to compromise > their values, or hide them in the closet as though they are > something to be ashamed of. Just tell them to lighten up. > > So, is there a more positive way to encourage social change than > attacking our friends for being " too vegan " ? I believe so. Just to > cite one such example, check out Carol J. Adams' book, " Living Among > Meat Eaters. " Its premise is that omnivores are " blocked > vegetarians " , and it is filled with tips to help them keep their > focus on themselves (where it belongs), and not on us. > > - Alan > > P.S. Carol Adams is pictured on the back of her book wearing a T- > shirt that says, " Very Vegetarian " . Sounds nice. > > , " leena " <leena@> wrote: > > > > Alan, > > I totally agree with your last paragraph, that one should always > tell people > > that every little bit they can do will help the animals, however > much or > > little as that is. > > > > Did you read the vegan outreach articles I sent? > > > > I don't criticize people for being too vegan, but it is important > to keep it > > in mind if one's goal is also to encourage other people to stop > supporting > > animal cruelty. Your examples of athletes or students is not the > same, as > > they are not as concerned about others following their example. If > you are > > vegan for the sake of your own spiritual path, fine, do whatever > works for > > you. But if, like me, you want to encourage others not to buy the > products > > of factory farming (for indeed the horrors of factory farming will > continue > > unabated as long as the vast majority of Americans vote for it > with their > > pocketbooks), it is important to make veganism look do-able to > others. Dr. > > Michael Greger gives a funny but great lecture in which he > says, " if you're > > going to avoid honey or look for every last bit of monoglycerides > that might > > be animal based, fine, but don't let anyone see you doing it! " > He's being > > funny, but his point is that sometimes meat eaters use that > extreme veganism > > to just say, " well that's too intense for me - I don't want to be > some crazy > > label reader - pass the steak and ice cream please! " > > If you haven't read it, please do read the vegan outreach article: > > http://www.veganoutreach.org/howvegan.html > > > > Again, all that I wrote only applies if you want to encourage > others to stop > > abusing and killing animals. If you are not concerned with that, > none of the > > above would apply. But it is important to acknowledge that very > strict > > veganism might turn off someone who currently is eating vast > amounts of meat > > and dairy, and might have been willing to decrease that in a step > toward > > veganism. > > > > For full disclosure as well, I also do not buy wool or honey, but > also don't > > ask if there's dairy or honey when I eat bread in restaurants. > > Leena > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2006 Report Share Posted September 20, 2006 Alan, I'm not saying that we should attack or shame our fellow vegans at all. I'm just suggesting that people should be mindful of their approach a bit, because like it or not, people don't know a lot of vegans, and every vegan IS an example of the lifestyle. I do know some extremist negative vegans, and they do make an impression on omnivores. Here is one example. I belong to a mother's group I met thru la leche league. When I met them I was the only vegan, though many were what I would call veg positive, meaning they were openminded to the idea of vegetarianism. By not seeming too extremist, I have shown them that I can still have a " normal " life, as can my children. Over the last 3 years that I have known these moms, there are at least 2 now that are now about 95% vegan as are their kids. When we all go to the children's museum together, we eat afterwards at a little diner where my daughter and I get veggie burgers (the burgers are vegan.) These women have told me that I have been a good example/motivation to them because I don't preach veganism, I just live it, my kids eat healthy, and it seems like something positive they can do in a world where there is so much negative. Plus they are all overstressed stay at home moms short on time and thru my example I have shown them that it is still a realistic and not too time consuming lifestyle. I later heard from another vegan mom friend that the buns used at that diner are not vegan, so she refuses to eat there. This same mom also has complained of how difficult and ostracizing it is to be raising her kids vegan and that she has found other moms to be judgmental of her veganism and negative about her " forcing " it on her kids. Of course, there could be more to it than just her level of veganism - we have different personalities etc, but I do think it makes veganism look a bit extreme and less rooted in the reality of animal suffering. For me, the experience of raising my kids vegan has been a little more work than if they weren't vegan, but otherwise it has been an absolute joy and very easy and manageable. And now, my " circle " of mommy friends all bring vegan foods to potlucks and playdates, and they and their meateating husbands all eat much more veg and much less animal based. Those friendships would have been much harder to nurture if I had been unwilling to eat at any restaurant that serves meat, or if I had been grilling waiters to see if there were any mono or diglycerides in the bread. Of course everyone should do what works for them, but I guess my personal desire is to facilitate the vast majority of Americans to make a move toward a largely plant based diet. I help teach cooking classes and there is a lot of interest among some people (usually for health reasons) to eat more plantbased foods. I try to make cooking vegan look easy, delicious, as convenient as it should be to cook healthy foods (ie you DO have to chop things!) and not about memorizing long lists of ingredients, grilling waiters in restaurants, and being grim and unhappy and starving at food based social events. Am I saying I thus eat scrambled eggs in a pinch? Not at all. It's fine to be as vegan as you want to be, and I'm not saying that people should be criticized or shamed. But I personally do know a fair number of " angry " vegans who do not make veganism look very appealing. If that's fine with them, fine. But I personally think that if you make veganism look bad then you are contributing to the continued use of animals as food. But obviously people disagree! I also think highly of Carol Adams' approach and her book is excellent. Leena > > > On Behalf Of Alan >Tuesday, September 19, 2006 8:28 PM > > Re: As Vegan as I want to be > >Leena, > >Yes, I'm familiar with Matt Ball's essay. Clearly, Matt Ball >and the other folks at Vegan Outreach have not had the good >fortune to meet the vegans I know. Instead, they readily >accept the viewpoint of omnivores grasping for excuses and >somebody to blame for their inaction ... I can almost hear >them whining, " I can't eat less meat because that vegan won't >eat honey! " > >Matt Ball, fighting a phantom epidemic of extremists, blames >vegans with strong convictions for omnivores reluctance to >adopt a more plant-based diet. > >I'm sure that, like all people (as mentioned by Earthmother), >there are a few presumptuous and arrogant vegans; but from my >experience, they are the exception and not the rule. It's >fine to remind people to be polite, considerate, and >respectful when encountering people with different opinions. >But let's not ask people to compromise their values, or hide >them in the closet as though they are something to be ashamed >of. Just tell them to lighten up. > >So, is there a more positive way to encourage social change >than attacking our friends for being " too vegan " ? I believe >so. Just to cite one such example, check out Carol J. Adams' >book, " Living Among Meat Eaters. " Its premise is that >omnivores are " blocked vegetarians " , and it is filled with >tips to help them keep their focus on themselves (where it >belongs), and not on us. > >- Alan > >P.S. Carol Adams is pictured on the back of her book wearing a >T- shirt that says, " Very Vegetarian " . Sounds nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2006 Report Share Posted September 20, 2006 leena -- i agree 100% with what you are saying. i am constantly aware of my position in people's minds as often the only vegan they know, and i act accordingly. when i bring meals (and i always do) i make sure it's the easiest, healthiest, but also the most delicious thing i can make, because i want people to know that eating vegan is not the terribly time-consuming, expensive, salad-based diet they think it is. i accept jokes about being vegan with grace and always throw one back at them, which they have to accept with good nature since they started teasing me first. it always stays friendly and they maintain in their minds the fact that a vegan can care very much about what they eat and wear and use and still be good-natured and not zealous or high-minded about it. i have had to work hard to adopt an attitude of humility about being vegan, not passing judgment on others. this has been difficult sometimes, especially when my MIL's only excuse for eating the incredibly massive amounts of meat that she does is that she believes there is a divine directive to eat meat, and the way that she is very defensive about our veganism without our even mentioning it at any time. but i consider it so incredibly important to remember that i used to be where she is...and my parents, all of my husband's family, and every one of our friends, since we are the only vegans in our community. everyone is at a different place in their lives and their development and some people are willing to accept change in certain areas and others are not. i am very careful to recognize that the place where i become most defensive is when people confront us about raising our kids vegan. for a long time i got very snippy and was very intolerant of people's questioning. now i realize that i was afraid myself that we weren't raising him in the healthiest way, that he would be shorter, skinnier, have less immunity, that his development would be stunted. we went vegan when he was 3 weeks old and it was a while before we settled comfortably into it. we are SO indoctrinated into the whole-milk-meat-and-potatoes diet for little ones, aren't we? even when we know it's not good for adults. now isaiah is 18 months old and he honestly speaks for himself. every time we leave the house people tell me they have never seen a healthier, more alert, or more good-natured little boy. isaiah is the poster child for a vegan lifestyle and since we've seen the evidence ourselves, and our families as well, of his obvious good health and development, nobody ever questions us about whether it's healthy for us to raise him vegan -- or for us to be vegan ourselves. i look for in-roads with people to bring up veganism as a legitimate choice (just as i look for in-roads with women to bring up homebirth as a legitimate choice , and most often what i get is this: " is that really healthy? " " well, look at my son. he's been vegan from birth. " and then they look at him and every question or doubt they might have had vanish completely -- and without a bit of resistance from me. due almost entirely to how healthy he is, and how good the food we make tastes, my brother-in-law and his wife are in the process of going vegan, and my sister-in-law plans to go veg as soon as she moves out. i really think the most important thing in every positive lifestyle choice we make is HUMILITY. we haven't always been this great, right? and we all still have SO many, many things to work on. all life is a progression, a learning experience, and it really is just like school. some people are much more advanced than others in one subject while falling behind in another, while others excell at that subject but fall behind in three others. some people do very well in all subjects while others don't even try. and no matter how good you are in one subject, you never know all there is to know about it. the important thing is the choices we are making for ourselves, not the choices we'd like to make for other people. ok, enough waxing philosophical for me! chandelle' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2006 Report Share Posted September 20, 2006 Chandelle wrote: <<i accept jokes about being vegan with grace and always throw one back at them, which they have to accept with good nature since they started teasing me first. it always stays friendly and they maintain in their minds the fact that a vegan can care very much about what they eat and wear and use and still be good-natured and not zealous or high-minded about it.>> Well put....you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar. <<i want people to know that eating vegan is not the terribly time-consuming, expensive, salad-based diet they think it is. >> LOL! That reminds me of a first date I went on many years ago. We went to a restaurant, and my date (an omnivore) ordered simply a salad. That seemed odd to me. I ordered something else, because I find most restaurants' salads are pretty boring. During our conversation, I learned that the salad was ordered based on an underlying assumption that vegetarians only ate salad, and he was trying to be accomodating. He was perplexed when I ordered something else! Very sweet, though, huh? Anyway, my response above made me think of something else. What do other veg*ns do when the perfect idiom/cliche that comes to mind is not veggie-friendly? For example, " catching flies with honey " (implying extermination) or " killing two birds with one stone " ? Are there simple, culturally recognizable alternatives? Liz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2006 Report Share Posted September 20, 2006 i wouldn't eat a bun that wasn't vegan just to be polite. i don't give my money to companies that support cruelty (except, as you mentioned, grocery stores, which is sort of inevitable right now). i won't eat at restaurants where i can't be sure the food is safe. i don't compromise on my vegan standards. but i don't have to be a jackass about it and alienate people. it's not justifiable and it's not furthering the cause to make people angry. it doesn't accomplish anything except proving people right in their expectations about us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2006 Report Share Posted September 20, 2006 Rebecca, Yes, I guess it is just a matter of personal choice. I don't think one should ever compromise if one does not want to; if it's important to one person to avoid certain things, they certainly should do whatever feels right for them. >I understand your point Leena, but I don't agree. I don't >think I'm angry but I won't compromise. We don't even want to >support a restaurant that sells meat and dairy and by >products. I totally respect your choice to do this. In my case, there is not a single vegetarian restaurant in my city, so to decide never to support a restaurant that sells great vegan options in addition to their meat/dairy choices would mean never eating out, never getting takeout, never going out for a meal with friends, my husband never having a business lunch out, etc etc. That might work for some, but it's not a choice our family wants to make. But I would never expect a stricter vegan to join me at a restaurant if that wasn't right for them. I really enjoy eating out though (when I can, which is not as often as I'd like)! And I also like to encourage restaurants to serve vegan meals, so thankfully there is a population of vegans that will eat those options. But of course everyone should do what they feel is right for them. Leena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2006 Report Share Posted September 20, 2006 Chandelle - >only vegan they know, and i act accordingly. when i bring >meals (and i always do) i make sure it's the easiest, >healthiest, but also the most delicious thing i can make, >because i want people to know that eating vegan is not the >terribly time-consuming, expensive, salad-based diet they >think it is. That's exactly what I do! I'm all about bypassing the commentary and passing the food around. That's why my desserts and I have become very popular around town -LOL! That's the part of being vegan that is very hard for me sometimes. With three kids 5 and under sometimes it's so hard to make something amazing for every social event, but I feel like it's important to not be eating convenience/processed foods and instead showcase the awesome healthy delicious food that vegans eat. >i really think the most important thing in every positive >lifestyle choice we make is HUMILITY. we haven't always been >this great, right? and we all still have SO many, many >things to work on. all life is a progression, a learning >experience, and it really is just like school. some people >are much more advanced than others in one subject while >falling behind in another, while others excell at that subject >but fall behind in three others. some people do very well in >all subjects while others don't even try. and no matter how >good you are in one subject, you never know all there is to >know about it. the important thing is the choices we are >making for ourselves, not the choices we'd like to make for >other people. Well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2006 Report Share Posted September 20, 2006 A boy I went to high school with used to call me a sheep. I called him a t-rex and a moron. All in good fun. On our first date my husband ordered some vegetarian nachos, which I was able to try a bite of. Crazy cajun loaded them up with jalapenos, though! A bit off the subject, but this somehow got me to thinking about it. The other day my husband had to go do some training for whatever it is he does. The instructor was making an analogy, saying that if you want a properly functioning network you should only buy the best parts, or else you won't have a good whole. So the analogy was, say you're at a steakhouse... he points to my husband. " Say you're at a steakhouse. Wouldn't you order the biggest steak on the menu? Or would you just order a salad? " Well poor Jeff got tickled and didn't respond. The instructor asked, " What are you, a vegetarian? " " Uh, well kind of. " Haaaa ha haa. I would have given anything to be there. Kadee Sedtal ERB <bakwin wrote: Chandelle wrote: <<i accept jokes about being vegan with grace and always throw one back at them, which they have to accept with good nature since they started teasing me first. it always stays friendly and they maintain in their minds the fact that a vegan can care very much about what they eat and wear and use and still be good-natured and not zealous or high-minded about it.>> Well put....you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar. <<i want people to know that eating vegan is not the terribly time-consuming, expensive, salad-based diet they think it is. >> LOL! That reminds me of a first date I went on many years ago. We went to a restaurant, and my date (an omnivore) ordered simply a salad. That seemed odd to me. I ordered something else, because I find most restaurants' salads are pretty boring. During our conversation, I learned that the salad was ordered based on an underlying assumption that vegetarians only ate salad, and he was trying to be accomodating. He was perplexed when I ordered something else! Very sweet, though, huh? Anyway, my response above made me think of something else. What do other veg*ns do when the perfect idiom/cliche that comes to mind is not veggie-friendly? For example, " catching flies with honey " (implying extermination) or " killing two birds with one stone " ? Are there simple, culturally recognizable alternatives? Liz Everyone is raving about the all-new Mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2006 Report Share Posted September 20, 2006 I get so upset when I go to a restaurant and the waiter doesn't know if the cooking surface will be cleaned before preparing my food. I try so very hard to be nice, asking them to personally go to the cook and ask if it can be guaranteed that my food will be cooked separately on a clean surface. Sometimes, though, they're just not able to work with me and I just eat when I get home. I'm all for being polite, but I won't sacrifice my beliefs just so someone doesn't think I'm weird. If they're the kind of person who judges people that way, I don't need their approval. I don't need it anyway, but really, if they choose to take my actions out on every other vegetarian in the world they're not a very bright individual and I have no value for their opinion. Those waiters who do go back to the cook and ask questions, who show me the vegetarian menu options, those are the ones who get tips and good comments. At restaurants where the manager goes table to table asking how the food is, I will always compliment a good waiter and complain about a bad one. Kadee Sedtal earthmother <earthmother213 wrote: i wouldn't eat a bun that wasn't vegan just to be polite. i don't give my money to companies that support cruelty (except, as you mentioned, grocery stores, which is sort of inevitable right now). i won't eat at restaurants where i can't be sure the food is safe. i don't compromise on my vegan standards. but i don't have to be a jackass about it and alienate people. it's not justifiable and it's not furthering the cause to make people angry. it doesn't accomplish anything except proving people right in their expectations about us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2006 Report Share Posted September 21, 2006 A friend of mine came up with " feed two birds with one seed " . I drop that casually in conversation and nobody seems to notice. My friend also came up with " 3 Kind Mice " . - Alan , ERB <bakwin wrote: > > Chandelle wrote: .... What do other veg*ns do when the perfect > idiom/cliche that comes to mind is not > veggie-friendly? For example, " catching flies with > honey " (implying extermination) or " killing two birds > with one stone " ? Are there simple, culturally > recognizable alternatives? > > Liz > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2006 Report Share Posted September 21, 2006 LOL cute story....... thanks for sharing it. Blew his analogy right out the window, didn't it. rofl Judy - Kadee M Wednesday, September 20, 2006 3:06 PM Re: Re: As Vegan as I want to be A boy I went to high school with used to call me a sheep. I called him a t-rex and a moron. All in good fun. On our first date my husband ordered some vegetarian nachos, which I was able to try a bite of. Crazy cajun loaded them up with jalapenos, though! A bit off the subject, but this somehow got me to thinking about it. The other day my husband had to go do some training for whatever it is he does. The instructor was making an analogy, saying that if you want a properly functioning network you should only buy the best parts, or else you won't have a good whole. So the analogy was, say you're at a steakhouse... he points to my husband. " Say you're at a steakhouse. Wouldn't you order the biggest steak on the menu? Or would you just order a salad? " Well poor Jeff got tickled and didn't respond. The instructor asked, " What are you, a vegetarian? " " Uh, well kind of. " Haaaa ha haa. I would have given anything to be there. Kadee Sedtal ERB <bakwin wrote: Chandelle wrote: <<i accept jokes about being vegan with grace and always throw one back at them, which they have to accept with good nature since they started teasing me first. it always stays friendly and they maintain in their minds the fact that a vegan can care very much about what they eat and wear and use and still be good-natured and not zealous or high-minded about it.>> Well put....you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar. <<i want people to know that eating vegan is not the terribly time-consuming, expensive, salad-based diet they think it is. >> LOL! That reminds me of a first date I went on many years ago. We went to a restaurant, and my date (an omnivore) ordered simply a salad. That seemed odd to me. I ordered something else, because I find most restaurants' salads are pretty boring. During our conversation, I learned that the salad was ordered based on an underlying assumption that vegetarians only ate salad, and he was trying to be accomodating. He was perplexed when I ordered something else! Very sweet, though, huh? Anyway, my response above made me think of something else. What do other veg*ns do when the perfect idiom/cliche that comes to mind is not veggie-friendly? For example, " catching flies with honey " (implying extermination) or " killing two birds with one stone " ? Are there simple, culturally recognizable alternatives? Liz Everyone is raving about the all-new Mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2006 Report Share Posted September 21, 2006 Yoga. Did I get anyone's attention? I bet I'm not the only one here who practices yoga. Yoga has been growing in popularity a great deal over the last decade. (Wouldn't we be glad if veganism was growing as much?) While some people practice a fitness/health focused form of yoga at their fitness centers (with aerobics, weight lifting, etc.), others practice at more religious-oriented centers; and some, like me, practice at yoga studios that attract a wide cross section of people of varying experience, ages, and motivations. Different strokes for different folks. Mostly the classes I attend are for " intermediates " . We have people who are barely more than a beginner, and others who are rather advanced. What I love, absolutely love, about my yoga studio and teachers is that they accept and respect all of us for where we are in our practice, and where we want to go with it. They acknolwedge both our self-professed limitations and our perhaps unrealistic aspirations. And their approach is contagious. We accept, respect, and (when we can) help each other. Nobody is criticized for not being serious enough, or for being too serious, about their practice. The beginners don't roll their eyes in disgust if a more advanced student asks for guidance on the " finer points " of a particular asana (posture), breathing, where to focus their gaze, etc. Likewise, the more advanced are patient when the teachers spend extra time with those who need more assitance. In yoga, as in all journeys, it's not " what " you are (extremely novice, extremely experienced, or extremely in between) at some arbitrary point in time that matters, it's " how " you are. Are you a novice eager to learn from the experiences of others, or envious with hurt pride? Have your experiences and accomplishments showed you how much remains to be learned, or have you placed yourself on a pedestal to scoff at others. I think the lesson for us veg*ns to note is that yoga has been so successful because of its tolerance and broad appeal for people in all walks of life. The many forms of yoga offer many paths, which coexist in harmony. Likewise, we veg*ns can see how our own diversity of approaches, when applied thougtfully and mindfully, actually strengthens our ability to bring about social awareness and growth, by allowing us to offer many paths for those who wish to begin or extend their journey. [i've appreciated the many views/opinions on this topic. I take all of them, pro and con, in the positive spirit I'm sure they were intended. I may step back a little to take a breath and catch up on chores around the house, but I'll still be reading what you all have to say.] - Alan , " leena " <leena wrote: > ... I guess my personal > desire is to facilitate the vast majority of Americans to make a move toward > a largely plant based diet. > Leena > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2006 Report Share Posted September 21, 2006 Hi Leena- Thanks for taking the time to respond. When we were first vegan, back in 1995, we lived in Boston so there were actually vegan restaurants. Now we are 2 hours away and there are no vegan restaurants. And thats OK. I understand where you are coming from, but I don't like " vegan options " at restaurants because you have to trust that there is no meat, dairy, etc. near your own food, or prepared on the same grill or fried in the same oil..Its a personal choice as you said. I would venture to say that vegans eating at restaurnats that mainly serve meat,dariy,etc would be encouraging those places to continue to serve meat and dairy,etc. I see that as more of a problem than " angry " vegans..just my 2 cents.. Peace Rebecca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2006 Report Share Posted September 21, 2006 Wanted to point out two facts about trying to work with non-veggie restaurants to cobble together something to eat.... 1) They honestly don't get it. No matter how many potential ingredients you list, they'll still end up serving you something with chicken or fish stock (it's not beef, so they assume it's OK), or lard in a bakery product, or key lime pie made with gelatin. 2) The more you push, the more likely the server will get ticked off and " get back " at you. (I've worked in a number of restaurants....you do not want to know what I've seen servers do to the plates of customers they don't like!) Not to scare people, but you really don't know what you're getting in a restaurant, unless it's one that is knowledgeable about veggie issues. Liz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2006 Report Share Posted September 21, 2006 Yep, ruined that poor guy's story. I was proud of him, though. Kadee Sedtal wwjd <jtwigg wrote: LOL cute story....... thanks for sharing it. Blew his analogy right out the window, didn't it. rofl Judy - Kadee M Wednesday, September 20, 2006 3:06 PM Re: Re: As Vegan as I want to be A boy I went to high school with used to call me a sheep. I called him a t-rex and a moron. All in good fun. On our first date my husband ordered some vegetarian nachos, which I was able to try a bite of. Crazy cajun loaded them up with jalapenos, though! A bit off the subject, but this somehow got me to thinking about it. The other day my husband had to go do some training for whatever it is he does. The instructor was making an analogy, saying that if you want a properly functioning network you should only buy the best parts, or else you won't have a good whole. So the analogy was, say you're at a steakhouse... he points to my husband. " Say you're at a steakhouse. Wouldn't you order the biggest steak on the menu? Or would you just order a salad? " Well poor Jeff got tickled and didn't respond. The instructor asked, " What are you, a vegetarian? " " Uh, well kind of. " Haaaa ha haa. I would have given anything to be there. Kadee Sedtal ERB <bakwin wrote: Chandelle wrote: <<i accept jokes about being vegan with grace and always throw one back at them, which they have to accept with good nature since they started teasing me first. it always stays friendly and they maintain in their minds the fact that a vegan can care very much about what they eat and wear and use and still be good-natured and not zealous or high-minded about it.>> Well put....you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar. <<i want people to know that eating vegan is not the terribly time-consuming, expensive, salad-based diet they think it is. >> LOL! That reminds me of a first date I went on many years ago. We went to a restaurant, and my date (an omnivore) ordered simply a salad. That seemed odd to me. I ordered something else, because I find most restaurants' salads are pretty boring. During our conversation, I learned that the salad was ordered based on an underlying assumption that vegetarians only ate salad, and he was trying to be accomodating. He was perplexed when I ordered something else! Very sweet, though, huh? Anyway, my response above made me think of something else. What do other veg*ns do when the perfect idiom/cliche that comes to mind is not veggie-friendly? For example, " catching flies with honey " (implying extermination) or " killing two birds with one stone " ? Are there simple, culturally recognizable alternatives? Liz Everyone is raving about the all-new Mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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