Guest guest Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 Hello: I've been on this list for a month or so. I am probably much older than the rest of you here, but I need some parenting thoughts. This is ironic since I lead sessions at La Leche League conferences on parenting. We have been a veg family for 20 years. Our children are grown (30, 24 and almost 19 Yrs.). The youngest has been a vegetarian from birth, of course, leaning heavily towards veganism. He is now a freshman in college and an athlete. I am so sad that he has began to eat meat. I'm not sure if it's pressure from teammates (or whomever), but it is breaking my heart. I feel that I can say that in this safe place. He said that he is very interested in Buddhism and the Dahli Lama is even teaching some classes at his college. I was devastated to learn that his Holiness is not vegetarian and even says that humans may need to eat meat to be strong. Do you all have thoughts for me? Since you all are probably closer to his age than mine, I thought you might be able to see both sides. Fingers Crossed, Pam in Chapel Hill (who had to have three glasses of wine to be able to write this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 Does he know exaclty why you are veg? Or the real reasons to be veg? A child raised with certain beliefs is eventually going to be curious about the " dark side " . Every teen will rebel.. maybe this is just his way of doing it? Education about vegetarianism may be the way to go on this one..... I'm curious.. how did you raise him to be vegetarian from birth? I have a six month old son.. and my fiance and I are curious about how to go about introducing our reasons for not eating meat to a small child... thanks for your input. Jessica, Robert, and Baby Jesse Life is an adventure in forgiveness. Norman Cousins (1915 - 1990) " pmfree3 " <pmfree3 Monday, February 19, 2007 7:53:57 PM Re: Teen thoughts? Hello: I've been on this list for a month or so. I am probably much older than the rest of you here, but I need some parenting thoughts. This is ironic since I lead sessions at La Leche League conferences on parenting. We have been a veg family for 20 years. Our children are grown (30, 24 and almost 19 Yrs.). The youngest has been a vegetarian from birth, of course, leaning heavily towards veganism. He is now a freshman in college and an athlete. I am so sad that he has began to eat meat. I'm not sure if it's pressure from teammates (or whomever), but it is breaking my heart. I feel that I can say that in this safe place. He said that he is very interested in Buddhism and the Dahli Lama is even teaching some classes at his college. I was devastated to learn that his Holiness is not vegetarian and even says that humans may need to eat meat to be strong. Do you all have thoughts for me? Since you all are probably closer to his age than mine, I thought you might be able to see both sides. Fingers Crossed, Pam in Chapel Hill (who had to have three glasses of wine to be able to write this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 Pam, I am so sorry to hear that you are going through all this! I can't begin to imagine what you are going through, but I can share a couple of stories that might possibly be helpful: Was I raised by smokers? No. Was I taught and did I fully understand as a child that smoking was devestating to my health? Absolutely! Was I an athelete and budding health nut in high school? Yes. Did I ever try smoking cigarettes in college? Why, yes! Did I try to justify this behavior? Of course. Did it last? No, it most certainly did not last. My point is just that high school/college is a time where many kids experiment with behaviors and lifestyle choices that may floor their parents. Sometimes they stick with these habits, but most of the time, they are just experiements in the sometimes bumpy pathway to adulthood. Breathe deeply, because there is a good chance that this, too, may pass. I have a friend who was raised as a vegetarian from birth by veg parents. I overheard him telling a story of how his mom reacted once when he was high school and she found out that he ate some salmon at a friend's house. He sounded almost pleased when he said she was very upset, saying " What!?! I raised you to be a good vegetarian! " He almost seemed to revel in rebelling against her. Not that this is what your son is doing - I share this story because rather, it may help you choose your reactions. I think my friend may not have enjoyed eating fish as much, and may not have repeated his behavior had she said something like " Well, you are free to choose what to eat " or something like that. It seemed like he was doing it in part for the reaction he got from his mom. I don't know, maybe your son is not in a rebelling stage, but this story just came to mind when I read your post. This may not be of any comfort, but at least he is not involved in heavy drinking/drugs like many kids get mixed up in at college. It sounds like he has it pretty together. Just think, eating meat may be as taboo for him as drugs or sex are for other college age kids. This might be, actually, totally normal behavior... Hang in there! Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 Hi, Pam, I understand why you are so upset. This is my personal nightmare, actually. I have a four-year-old so I have not experienced a lot of the same parenting challenges you have and I'm sure that you have more wisdom on this than you think, but it is such a disappointment. My understanding is that the Dali Llama was a vegetarian and then his Tibetan physician recommended he eat some animal protein for his health. Keeping in mind that Tibet is a very rugged landscape upon which it is difficult to grow many plants, a lot of traditional Tibetan food is animal-based. I would also say that given the Tibetan diaspora, a way of keeping their culture alive is keeping their traditions intact, so the fact that a Tibetan Buddhist eats meat is a complex one. As many Buddhists - regardless of their particular orientation - look to the Dali Llama as a spiritual leader and try to emulate his ways, meat-eating has become acceptable to many Buddhists. I would point out to your son that the First Precept of Buddhism is to abstain from harming other living beings. A Buddhist life encourages a dynamic and thoughtful application of this precept. (There is also the tradition, I should point out, of Buddhist monks accepting whatever peasants put in their bowls without judgment, whether it was meat or not, but I don't know if this goes back thousands of years but is slightly more modern.) I think that keeping the lines of communication open so that your son can come to you with his questions and concerns is really important. Hopefully, the foundation of compassion your raised your son with will always center him, and he will come back in the fold. Maybe part of his journey is to make these choices so that he can " own " his veg*nism for himself, rather than just feel that it was something he didn't have a part of choosing. This exploration might might make his convictions even stronger about abstaining from animal foods. I have wondered for my son if he is " missing out " on the discovery of veganism because that is how he is being raised (not that I would change that); I am so grateful for my journey that led me to veganism. I was talking to a friend who was raised as a vegetarian (he is now vegan) about it and I asked if he resented that he didn't get to choose himself. He looked at me aghast and said, " What are you talking about? Every day, every time I sit down for a meal, I get to choose to be a vegetarian or not. Every day, I choose to be. " Anyway, maybe this is something that will happen for your son (hopefully before too long!). Peace to you. Marla Rose > Hello: > I've been on this list for a month or so. I am probably much older than the > rest of you here, but I need some parenting thoughts. This is ironic since > I lead sessions at La Leche League conferences on parenting. > We have been a veg family for 20 years. Our children are grown (30, 24 and > almost 19 Yrs.). The youngest has been a vegetarian from birth, of course, > leaning heavily towards veganism. > He is now a freshman in college and an athlete. > I am so sad that he has began to eat meat. I'm not sure if it's pressure > from teammates (or whomever), but it is breaking my heart. I feel that I can > say that in this safe place. > He said that he is very interested in Buddhism and the Dahli Lama is even > teaching some classes at his college. I was devastated to learn that his > Holiness is not vegetarian and even says that humans may need to eat meat to > be > strong. > Do you all have thoughts for me? Since you all are probably closer to his > age than mine, I thought you might be able to see both sides. > Fingers Crossed, > Pam in Chapel Hill > (who had to have three glasses of wine to be able to write this. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 hm. i always thought buddhists were vegetarians. live and learn. On 2/19/07, k.beauford <karen wrote: > > Pam, > > I am so sorry to hear that you are going through all this! I can't begin > to imagine what you > are going through, but I can share a couple of stories that might possibly > be helpful: > > Was I raised by smokers? No. Was I taught and did I fully understand as > a child that > smoking was devestating to my health? Absolutely! Was I an athelete and > budding health > nut in high school? Yes. Did I ever try smoking cigarettes in > college? Why, yes! Did I try > to justify this behavior? Of course. Did it last? No, it most certainly > did not last. My point > is just that high school/college is a time where many kids experiment with > behaviors and > lifestyle choices that may floor their parents. Sometimes they stick with > these habits, but > most of the time, they are just experiements in the sometimes bumpy > pathway to > adulthood. Breathe deeply, because there is a good chance that this, too, > may pass. > > I have a friend who was raised as a vegetarian from birth by veg > parents. I overheard him > telling a story of how his mom reacted once when he was high school and > she found out > that he ate some salmon at a friend's house. He sounded almost pleased > when he said > she was very upset, saying " What!?! I raised you to be a good > vegetarian! " He almost > seemed to revel in rebelling against her. Not that this is what your son > is doing - I share > this story because rather, it may help you choose your reactions. I think > my friend may > not have enjoyed eating fish as much, and may not have repeated his > behavior had she > said something like " Well, you are free to choose what to eat " or > something like that. It > seemed like he was doing it in part for the reaction he got from his > mom. I don't know, > maybe your son is not in a rebelling stage, but this story just came to > mind when I read > your post. > > This may not be of any comfort, but at least he is not involved in heavy > drinking/drugs > like many kids get mixed up in at college. It sounds like he has it > pretty together. Just > think, eating meat may be as taboo for him as drugs or sex are for other > college age kids. > This might be, actually, totally normal behavior... > > Hang in there! > Karen > > > > > For more information about vegetarianism, please visit the VRG website at > http://www.vrg.org and for materials especially useful for families go to > http://www.vrg.org/family.This is a discussion list and is not intended to > provide personal medical advice. Medical advice should be obtained from a > qualified health professional. > > edical advice. Medical advice should be obtained from a qualified health > professional. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 Hey, you've definitely found a sympathetic group. My kids are 3 and 2 and just the thought of them ever choosing to eat meat makes me sick at my stomach. If he's really concerned about being a healthy vegetarian athlete, I can send a picture of my husband!! He's not 100% vegetarian but he only eats meat maybe once or twice a week and he's in fantastic shape. He's in the Air Force, 27 years old, and I personally think he's got one very nice body!! Would it help your son to talk to other vegetarian men? I know my husband at first felt like it made him less of a man, but now it's the exact opposite. I wonder where your son is getting the idea that he needs meat to be in good shape?? What's important is that you taught him how to be healthy. He's better off for how you raised him and maybe one day he'll come back to it. Every teenager has a little bit of a need to rebel, and maybe he just needs to find where he belongs in the world. It hasn't been that long since I was a teenager, and I did lots of things I regret. At the time I didn't think it was a rebellion issue, but looking back on it I see it differently than I did at the time. Your son knows better than to believe he can't be a successful athlete on a vegetarian diet. Hopefully he'll just get it out of his system and come back to what you raised him to believe. Whatever happens, you did your best and taught him something good. It's up to him what he does with it. Try not to feel too bad, most parents don't even know enough to even teach their children to accept a vegetarian diet, much less actually follow one! pmfree3 wrote: Hello: I've been on this list for a month or so. I am probably much older than the rest of you here, but I need some parenting thoughts. This is ironic since I lead sessions at La Leche League conferences on parenting. We have been a veg family for 20 years. Our children are grown (30, 24 and almost 19 Yrs.). The youngest has been a vegetarian from birth, of course, leaning heavily towards veganism. He is now a freshman in college and an athlete. I am so sad that he has began to eat meat. I'm not sure if it's pressure from teammates (or whomever), but it is breaking my heart. I feel that I can say that in this safe place. He said that he is very interested in Buddhism and the Dahli Lama is even teaching some classes at his college. I was devastated to learn that his Holiness is not vegetarian and even says that humans may need to eat meat to be strong. Do you all have thoughts for me? Since you all are probably closer to his age than mine, I thought you might be able to see both sides. Fingers Crossed, Pam in Chapel Hill (who had to have three glasses of wine to be able to write this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 Does he participate in atheletics at college or in a large group? The other atheletes or coaches may be influencing him. However you decide to approach him, you may mention the numerous veg/vegan atheletes. Dr. Spock of baby book fame was raised veg and went on to medal in the Olympics. He did turn away from vegetarianism but in his last book he admits that was a mistake and states children shoud be raised vegan. You can get info about veg atheletes on many sites - I'm sure PETA has sources. So does the Vegsource website. Dr. Doug Graham is a raw foodist, chiropractic who advises atheletes. I don't have the info in front of me, but he wrote about the percentages of veg. in sports. The numbers are something like this: Only about 20% (or less) of all the world atheletes are veg but almost 100% of the top 10% are veg. You would need to confirm my numbers. Dr. Graham has a website. Yes, I worry about handling this issue one day also. I " say " I will react in a certain way but won't know until/if I get there, right? I hope you find peace in this situation, Carrol , pmfree3 wrote: > > Hello: > I've been on this list for a month or so. I am probably much older than the > rest of you here, but I need some parenting thoughts. This is ironic since > I lead sessions at La Leche League conferences on parenting. > We have been a veg family for 20 years. Our children are grown (30, 24 and > almost 19 Yrs.). The youngest has been a vegetarian from birth, of course, > leaning heavily towards veganism. > He is now a freshman in college and an athlete. > I am so sad that he has began to eat meat. I'm not sure if it's pressure > from teammates (or whomever), but it is breaking my heart. I feel that I can > say that in this safe place. > He said that he is very interested in Buddhism and the Dahli Lama is even > teaching some classes at his college. I was devastated to learn that his > Holiness is not vegetarian and even says that humans may need to eat meat to be > strong. > Do you all have thoughts for me? Since you all are probably closer to his > age than mine, I thought you might be able to see both sides. > Fingers Crossed, > Pam in Chapel Hill > (who had to have three glasses of wine to be able to write this. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 Hey, I am fairly young (23--and work with teens), so maybe I can answer this from more of a teen perspective. Not too long ago, I questioned a lot of the things my parents taught me, and my brother (who is almost 19) is going through that right now. The one thing that really helps is for my parents to respect my opinion, even if they don't agree with it. They made their choices when they were young, and now it is my turn. In order for your son to fully become vegetarian on his own choice, he has to question it, otherwise when people challenge his beliefs, he won't know how to answer (which may be what is happening now). He may come back to it, or he may not. Actually, come to think, I am in kind of the opposite situation--my mom is supportive of my vegetarian decision, but my dad thinks it is stupid (he is a retired county agent). He even says organics are a waste of money, which I disagree with even though he has a master's degree in agriculture (he earned it a LONG time ago before they knew/researched the effects of pesticides etc). The thing is, your son will know your opinion, so don't force it down his throat every time he comes home (I am not saying you are/will, but I know it drives both me and my brother crazy every time my mom makes some little comment about our lifestyle choices, so I thought I would throw that out there.) I know it is rough, because I am a parent, too and am not looking forward to this time in my daughter's future (she is 6 mos). But I know that I will have to respect her opinions no matter what she decides. That my job is to keep her healthy and teach her the important stuff when she is a kid, but just be there for her and answer questions the best and most non-judgmental way I can when she is older. I am probably making this sound easy, so I am sorry. My main thing is to just give you a heads up on how he may be feeling and just how to handle it from a parental perspective. I am sure others can give you better ideas on how to handle it in your heart, as they will be closer to that stage of life than I am. I hope things work out for you, and I really do sympathize even if I am little comfort. pmfree3 wrote: Hello: I've been on this list for a month or so. I am probably much older than the rest of you here, but I need some parenting thoughts. This is ironic since I lead sessions at La Leche League conferences on parenting. We have been a veg family for 20 years. Our children are grown (30, 24 and almost 19 Yrs.). The youngest has been a vegetarian from birth, of course, leaning heavily towards veganism. He is now a freshman in college and an athlete. I am so sad that he has began to eat meat. I'm not sure if it's pressure from teammates (or whomever), but it is breaking my heart. I feel that I can say that in this safe place. He said that he is very interested in Buddhism and the Dahli Lama is even teaching some classes at his college. I was devastated to learn that his Holiness is not vegetarian and even says that humans may need to eat meat to be strong. Do you all have thoughts for me? Since you all are probably closer to his age than mine, I thought you might be able to see both sides. Fingers Crossed, Pam in Chapel Hill (who had to have three glasses of wine to be able to write this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 We give our children the best tools we can and send them into the world to make their own choices. You can present your son with facts, but don't preach. My first concern with meat is that he be sure that he is not eating cows with potential for mad cow. I believe that most alzheimers victims have mad cow. Commercially raised (non-Kosher, non-grassfed, non-organic) cows are fed a " protein mix " made from dead cows; this is how they get sick. Second, cows stomachs are made to eat grass, not corn. Cows fed corn are fed a constant stream of anti-biotics to keep them alive. Additionally, the corn they eat is extremely likely to be genetically modified and loaded with pesticides. Second, meat production is the second biggest contributor to global warming after cars. pmfree3 wrote: Hello: I've been on this list for a month or so. I am probably much older than the rest of you here, but I need some parenting thoughts. This is ironic since I lead sessions at La Leche League conferences on parenting. We have been a veg family for 20 years. Our children are grown (30, 24 and almost 19 Yrs.). The youngest has been a vegetarian from birth, of course, leaning heavily towards veganism. He is now a freshman in college and an athlete. I am so sad that he has began to eat meat. I'm not sure if it's pressure from teammates (or whomever), but it is breaking my heart. I feel that I can say that in this safe place. He said that he is very interested in Buddhism and the Dahli Lama is even teaching some classes at his college. I was devastated to learn that his Holiness is not vegetarian and even says that humans may need to eat meat to be strong. Do you all have thoughts for me? Since you all are probably closer to his age than mine, I thought you might be able to see both sides. Fingers Crossed, Pam in Chapel Hill (who had to have three glasses of wine to be able to write this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 I completely agree with everything that Laurel (I'm hoping that yours name!) is saying. I'm only 18, so I have close experience with rebelling. Listening and understanding is a HUGE and I mean a HUGE part of it. Just love your kids no matter what! Jessica, Robert, and Baby Jesse Life is an adventure in forgiveness. Norman Cousins (1915 - 1990) L Friend <mountain_laurel1183 Tuesday, February 20, 2007 2:01:12 AM Re: Re: Teen thoughts? Hey, I am fairly young (23--and work with teens), so maybe I can answer this from more of a teen perspective. Not too long ago, I questioned a lot of the things my parents taught me, and my brother (who is almost 19) is going through that right now. The one thing that really helps is for my parents to respect my opinion, even if they don't agree with it. They made their choices when they were young, and now it is my turn. In order for your son to fully become vegetarian on his own choice, he has to question it, otherwise when people challenge his beliefs, he won't know how to answer (which may be what is happening now). He may come back to it, or he may not. Actually, come to think, I am in kind of the opposite situation--my mom is supportive of my vegetarian decision, but my dad thinks it is stupid (he is a retired county agent). He even says organics are a waste of money, which I disagree with even though he has a master's degree in agriculture (he earned it a LONG time ago before they knew/researched the effects of pesticides etc). The thing is, your son will know your opinion, so don't force it down his throat every time he comes home (I am not saying you are/will, but I know it drives both me and my brother crazy every time my mom makes some little comment about our lifestyle choices, so I thought I would throw that out there.) I know it is rough, because I am a parent, too and am not looking forward to this time in my daughter's future (she is 6 mos). But I know that I will have to respect her opinions no matter what she decides. That my job is to keep her healthy and teach her the important stuff when she is a kid, but just be there for her and answer questions the best and most non-judgmental way I can when she is older. I am probably making this sound easy, so I am sorry. My main thing is to just give you a heads up on how he may be feeling and just how to handle it from a parental perspective. I am sure others can give you better ideas on how to handle it in your heart, as they will be closer to that stage of life than I am. I hope things work out for you, and I really do sympathize even if I am little comfort. pmfree3 (AT) aol (DOT) com wrote: Hello: I've been on this list for a month or so. I am probably much older than the rest of you here, but I need some parenting thoughts. This is ironic since I lead sessions at La Leche League conferences on parenting. We have been a veg family for 20 years. Our children are grown (30, 24 and almost 19 Yrs.). The youngest has been a vegetarian from birth, of course, leaning heavily towards veganism. He is now a freshman in college and an athlete. I am so sad that he has began to eat meat. I'm not sure if it's pressure from teammates (or whomever), but it is breaking my heart. I feel that I can say that in this safe place. He said that he is very interested in Buddhism and the Dahli Lama is even teaching some classes at his college. I was devastated to learn that his Holiness is not vegetarian and even says that humans may need to eat meat to be strong. Do you all have thoughts for me? Since you all are probably closer to his age than mine, I thought you might be able to see both sides. Fingers Crossed, Pam in Chapel Hill (who had to have three glasses of wine to be able to write this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 Oooh, another good thing you've mentioned!! The mad cow and alzheimers thing. I read once that some form of alzheimers was so similar to mad cow they couldn't tell any difference, and it might well be the same disease. That is really, really scary. The thought of losing my mind and my memories terrifies me. robin koloms <rkoloms wrote: We give our children the best tools we can and send them into the world to make their own choices. You can present your son with facts, but don't preach. My first concern with meat is that he be sure that he is not eating cows with potential for mad cow. I believe that most alzheimers victims have mad cow. Commercially raised (non-Kosher, non-grassfed, non-organic) cows are fed a " protein mix " made from dead cows; this is how they get sick. Second, cows stomachs are made to eat grass, not corn. Cows fed corn are fed a constant stream of anti-biotics to keep them alive. Additionally, the corn they eat is extremely likely to be genetically modified and loaded with pesticides. Second, meat production is the second biggest contributor to global warming after cars. pmfree3 wrote: Hello: I've been on this list for a month or so. I am probably much older than the rest of you here, but I need some parenting thoughts. This is ironic since I lead sessions at La Leche League conferences on parenting. We have been a veg family for 20 years. Our children are grown (30, 24 and almost 19 Yrs.). The youngest has been a vegetarian from birth, of course, leaning heavily towards veganism. He is now a freshman in college and an athlete. I am so sad that he has began to eat meat. I'm not sure if it's pressure from teammates (or whomever), but it is breaking my heart. I feel that I can say that in this safe place. He said that he is very interested in Buddhism and the Dahli Lama is even teaching some classes at his college. I was devastated to learn that his Holiness is not vegetarian and even says that humans may need to eat meat to be strong. Do you all have thoughts for me? Since you all are probably closer to his age than mine, I thought you might be able to see both sides. Fingers Crossed, Pam in Chapel Hill (who had to have three glasses of wine to be able to write this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 I am a few days behind in my email but I did have some empathy for your son. I have recently returned to vegetarian after many years of a long slow slide back into meat eating. The peer pressure can be intense, no matter what your age. You might like to buy him a book like, Brendan Brazier's " Thrive " . He is a vegan athlete and was told it could not be done, but has had great success. I just got it from the library. He sells a whole line of products so that factors into credibility, but he has a website www.myvega.com <http://www.myvega.com/> . Christine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 In a message dated 2/22/07 8:49:49 AM, macpoulin writes: > Brendan Brazier's > " Thrive " > Thank you, Christine. I saw this book and wondered if it might fit the bill. I appreciate your recommendation - that means a lot! Pam (p.s. Talked with my 18 yr old last night and he said he has not been eating meat. Hmm... maybe that initial " I'm in college and I CAN do whatever I want " , testing is over?) ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 Great!! :) p.s. Talked with my 18 yr old last night and he said he has not been eating meat. Hmm... maybe that initial " I'm in college and I CAN do whatever I want " , testing is over?) Kadee Sedtal Brain: " Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering? " Pinky: " I think so, Brain, but if the plural of mouse is mice, wouldn't the plural of spouse be spice? " Check out my new , Classical 2 at http://launch.classical2/ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Travel to find your fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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