Guest guest Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 Hello, everyone. I've been lurking for about a month but found something I'd be curious to see your input on. I came across this frustrating article, " The Myths of Vegetarianism " , by Stephen Byrnes. http://chetday.com/vegmyths.htm Some of it I can refute myself but the information on how some vitamins, such as A and B12, are available only from animal sources seemed credible? How accurate is this guy? Cheers, -Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 first of all, the first two paragraphs are disgusting. if that is a real couple, i feel very sorry for them that they had to hear something so awful and completely inaccurate. almost every pregnancy loss in the first trimester is due to chromosomal abnormalities that are incompatible with life and has nothing whatsoever to do with diet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 Without even looking, Vitamin A is in all the dark green leafy vegies as well as all the orange/yellow vegies/fruits. From just a quick google search: Vitamin A is found in dark green and yellow vegetables and yellow fruits, such as broccoli spinach, turnip greens, carrots, squash, sweet potatoes, pumpkin, cantaloupe, and apricots, and in animal sources such as liver, milk, butter, cheese, and whole eggs. As for B12, nearly all breads, flour, cereals and pastas (and more) are enriched with multiple B vitamins (esp. B12), including B12. Most soymilks (we get one that doesn't say enriched or enhanced and it IS enriched with all the B's plus zinc and D and a few others. Of course the 'staple' of many veg*n diets is Nutritional Yeast which is something like 300% (mine is over this per scoop, but I don't use a full scoop unless I'm adding it to something I'm cooking - like making my own seitan). B12 is something vegans have to really be sure they get enough of, Lacto/Ovo-vegetarians get plenty as it is plentiful in eggs and dairy. http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/vitamins.html I just started reading that, and um, B12 will not cause anemia, that's not enough iron that makes you anemic. Much of the Eastern world would have been dead already by their own claims in that article, too as they didn't have any supplements that are only available today...sounds rather dubious - nearly all of it actually. This also doesn't explain how many of the longest living people are vegetarians or mostly vegetarians (Okinawa had a large population of folks living well into their 100's, but they ate some meat/fish occasionally. they did see a decrease in the numbers once most of the western world's influence came there - read fast food and other imported foods. My husband has this Okinawan Diet book and they talk about it in there with the longevity associated with that island in particular. He followed it for a while, but kept on the vegetarian side of it, rather than the occasional meat side - there were basically 2 'paths' you could follow working more towards teh vegetarian one I believe though it's been a while since I have read or looked at it). I would say that it's not hard to refute at all. Missie On 2/20/07, yanoff <yanoff wrote: > > > Hello, everyone. I've been lurking for about a month but found > something I'd be curious to see your input on. I came across this > frustrating article, " The Myths of Vegetarianism " , by Stephen Byrnes. > > http://chetday.com/vegmyths.htm > > Some of it I can refute myself but the information on how some > vitamins, such as A and B12, are available only from animal sources > seemed credible? How accurate is this guy? > > Cheers, > -Scott > > > -- I'm all out of bubblegum. -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 B12 Sources: http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm List of sources of B12 for vegan diet! http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/vegan.htm Good site listing vitamins and their sources. From same site as above. Vitamin A http://www.unu.edu/Unupress/food2/UIN07E/uin07e0h.htm Jessica, Robert, and Baby Jesse Life is an adventure in forgiveness. Norman Cousins (1915 - 1990) yanoff <yanoff Tuesday, February 20, 2007 5:25:26 PM Vegetarian Myths - How to Dispute? Hello, everyone. I've been lurking for about a month but found something I'd be curious to see your input on. I came across this frustrating article, " The Myths of Vegetarianism " , by Stephen Byrnes. http://chetday. com/vegmyths. htm Some of it I can refute myself but the information on how some vitamins, such as A and B12, are available only from animal sources seemed credible? How accurate is this guy? Cheers, -Scott ______________________________\ ____ Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Small Business. http://smallbusiness./domains/?p=BESTDEAL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 Any of these silly little bits of garbage people come up with can be dealt with simply by telling people to look up studies on longevity. Vegetarians in general live longer than meat eaters. There. Whatever we're getting, it's making us live longer. yanoff <yanoff wrote: Hello, everyone. I've been lurking for about a month but found something I'd be curious to see your input on. I came across this frustrating article, " The Myths of Vegetarianism " , by Stephen Byrnes. http://chetday.com/vegmyths.htm Some of it I can refute myself but the information on how some vitamins, such as A and B12, are available only from animal sources seemed credible? How accurate is this guy? Cheers, -Scott Kadee Sedtal Brain: " Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering? " Pinky: " I think so, Brain, but if the plural of mouse is mice, wouldn't the plural of spouse be spice? " Check out my new , Classical 2 at http://launch.classical2/ Cheap Talk? Check out Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 Scott, Guess what - you don't need to refute that idiotic article. Do you want to know why???? Because Stephen Byrnes DIED OF A STROKE AT THE RIPE OLD AGE OF 45!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He died on June 17th, 2004. Actually, I have heard he may have actually been as young as 39 years old. Either way, the diet he promoted (rich in meat, organ meats, dairy) did not seem to protect him from such a horrible event. I feel terrible for his friends and family. You would think that his death would have served as more of a warning to people, but yet that stupid article continues to make the rounds while news of his fatal stroke does not. Anyway, I have definitely seen one particular article which refuted each of his " myths " point by point, but I don't remember what website I found it on. A way to refute the credibility of " Dr. " Byrnes is to point out that he was the founder of a " school " called the Academy of Natural Therapies (ANT). A major fraud lawsuit was brought against Mr. Byrnes by the Office of Consumer Protection. The " school " was found to be a diploma mill and the state of Hawaii then SHUT IT DOWN. So between that and the fact that the guy is dead due to a disease indictative of poor lifestyle choices, what more is there to say??? But if you would really like to refute it, here is a good link on the b12 issue: http://www.vegsource.com/articles/walsh_byrnes_b12_print.htm Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 those wacko WAPers are so delusional. 1) they argue that vitamin a in animal products is better because it doesn't have to be converted, i.e. retinol vs. beta carotene. but retinol has been widely linked to causing osteoporosis and various other problems from leaching calicum. our bodies are DESIGNED to convert beta-carotene for a REASON. it's a perfect system. 2) they argue that the iron in animal products is superior because it's more readily absorbed. that's true (heme vs. non-heme iron). but that's actually a PROBLEM. getting too much iron is damaging to the body. with plant-based iron, our bodies do this amazing trick of taking only how much iron we need by absorbing more when we need it and less when we don't, which is impossible with heme iron which is more readily absorbed. 3) it drives me CRAZY that those people think the only source of omegas that vegans get is from flax. there are so many sources, among them algae, which is where fish get it from, so we cut out the middleman to get our omegas without contributing to the extinction of marine life and putting heavy metals in our bodies. 4) b12 is not a concern to anyone who eats a varied diet. i don't think it's a good idea to depend on fortified breads because almost universally fortified breads are fortified because they are refined, and white flour is the devil. but anyone drinking soy milk, eating miso, or using nutritional yeast, among many other products, is getting a fine amount of b12 without even trying. all of that being said, my advice to you, scott, is - don't get dragged into it. i know this isn't a nice thing to say, but those people are INSANE. i am on a couple of natural parenting groups and have a couple of natural mothering playgroups and i have to work very hard to bite my tongue and not get into it. it's not worth it. they are crazy, arrogant, condescending, hateful, destructive zealots with a lot of crappy science that sounds good on the surface to back themselves up. let them have their heart attacks and colonoscopies along with their self-righteousness...more veggies for us. live and let live. they are really not nice people, IME. they are crazy. just let it go. someday when their health is completely depleted, they'll MAYBE come around, but in the meantime, just be a peaceful person (while thinking delightfully hypocritical thoughts about how awful they are, like me!) and realize that you can't change someone's mind who isn't ready to learn. chandelle' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 The classification of vitamins and the casual use of their names can sometimes be confusing. Vitamin A, or retinol, is the active form of Vitamin A. It is naturally found only in animal products but can be made synthetically (known as retinoids). Carotenoids, such as beta- carotene, are Pro-Vitamins. These are found in plant foods and can turned into vitamin A by the body of many animals, including humans. A notable exception is the cat. This is one of the reasons felines are considered obligate carnivores (of course, there are synthetic vitamins if one wishes to feed a vegan diet to a cat – see other posts). Vitamin A is not an essential vitamin in humans as it can be metabolized from beta-carotene. Vitamin B-12 deficiency is a cause of Pernicious Anemia. Anemia is a condition where red blood cells are not providing enough oxygen to the tissues of the body, ususally due to lower numbers of red blood cells which lowers the oxygen carrying component of hemoglobin. There are many reasons for anemia. Dietary causes can include iron and vitamins but there are also bone marrow problems and drug reactions to name a few (not to mention trauma). Vitamin B-12 is not made by plants or animals. Animals are a source of B-12 because they store this vitamin in their body (even though it is water soluble). Vitamin B-12 is made by bacteria and archaea – neither of which are animals, regardless if you use the 6 kingdom method or the 3 domain method of classification. Dirt is a good, but generally unreccomended, source of B-12. The B-12 in fortified nutritional yeast is grown by bacteria in yeast (also not an animal or a plant) on a molasses substrate. To me, non-vegetarians get their B-12 no more naturally than vegans using nutritional yeast. I think people aren't forth-coming when writing articles such as the one linked on chetday because they want to promote their cause or because they just don't have all the info themselves. In either case, it is a shame. HTH, Carrol , " Missie Ward " <mszzzi wrote: > > Without even looking, Vitamin A is in all the dark green leafy vegies as > well as all the orange/yellow vegies/fruits. > > From just a quick google search: > Vitamin A is found in dark green and yellow vegetables and yellow fruits, > such as broccoli spinach, turnip greens, carrots, squash, sweet potatoes, > pumpkin, cantaloupe, and apricots, and in animal sources such as liver, > milk, butter, cheese, and whole eggs. > > As for B12, > I just started reading that, and um, B12 will not cause anemia, that's not > enough iron that makes you anemic. > associated with that island in particular. > I would say that it's not hard to refute at all. > Missie > > On 2/20/07, yanoff <yanoff wrote: > > > > > > Hello, everyone. I've been lurking for about a month but found > > something I'd be curious to see your input on. I came across this > > frustrating article, " The Myths of Vegetarianism " , by Stephen Byrnes. > > > > http://chetday.com/vegmyths.htm > > > > Some of it I can refute myself but the information on how some > > vitamins, such as A and B12, are available only from animal sources > > seemed credible? How accurate is this guy? > > > > Cheers, > > -Scott > > > > > > > > > > -- > I'm all out of bubblegum. > > -- > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 Wow, funny how stuff like that doesn't get spread around as quickly as the article! Sad that the guy died, but really what did he expect eating such a terrible diet? " k.beauford " <karen wrote: Scott, Guess what - you don't need to refute that idiotic article. Do you want to know why???? Because Stephen Byrnes DIED OF A STROKE AT THE RIPE OLD AGE OF 45!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He died on June 17th, 2004. Actually, I have heard he may have actually been as young as 39 years old. Either way, the diet he promoted (rich in meat, organ meats, dairy) did not seem to protect him from such a horrible event. I feel terrible for his friends and family. You would think that his death would have served as more of a warning to people, but yet that stupid article continues to make the rounds while news of his fatal stroke does not. Anyway, I have definitely seen one particular article which refuted each of his " myths " point by point, but I don't remember what website I found it on. A way to refute the credibility of " Dr. " Byrnes is to point out that he was the founder of a " school " called the Academy of Natural Therapies (ANT). A major fraud lawsuit was brought against Mr. Byrnes by the Office of Consumer Protection. The " school " was found to be a diploma mill and the state of Hawaii then SHUT IT DOWN. So between that and the fact that the guy is dead due to a disease indictative of poor lifestyle choices, what more is there to say??? But if you would really like to refute it, here is a good link on the b12 issue: http://www.vegsource.com/articles/walsh_byrnes_b12_print.htm Karen Kadee Sedtal Brain: " Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering? " Pinky: " I think so, Brain, but if the plural of mouse is mice, wouldn't the plural of spouse be spice? " Check out my new , Classical 2 at http://launch.classical2/ It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Toolbar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 So they're saying a slab of fat-laden meat is better for you than carrots? Any diet that limits vegetables is not good!! Or that says anything is better than vegetables and fruits. Nothing in the world is better for you than a plate full of vegetables. Vegetables are the best, especially brussels sprouts. chandelle' <earthmother213 wrote: those wacko WAPers are so delusional. 1) they argue that vitamin a in animal products is better because it doesn't have to be converted, i.e. retinol vs. beta carotene. but retinol has been widely linked to causing osteoporosis and various other problems from leaching calicum. our bodies are DESIGNED to convert beta-carotene for a REASON. it's a perfect system. 2) they argue that the iron in animal products is superior because it's more readily absorbed. that's true (heme vs. non-heme iron). but that's actually a PROBLEM. getting too much iron is damaging to the body. with plant-based iron, our bodies do this amazing trick of taking only how much iron we need by absorbing more when we need it and less when we don't, which is impossible with heme iron which is more readily absorbed. 3) it drives me CRAZY that those people think the only source of omegas that vegans get is from flax. there are so many sources, among them algae, which is where fish get it from, so we cut out the middleman to get our omegas without contributing to the extinction of marine life and putting heavy metals in our bodies. 4) b12 is not a concern to anyone who eats a varied diet. i don't think it's a good idea to depend on fortified breads because almost universally fortified breads are fortified because they are refined, and white flour is the devil. but anyone drinking soy milk, eating miso, or using nutritional yeast, among many other products, is getting a fine amount of b12 without even trying. all of that being said, my advice to you, scott, is - don't get dragged into it. i know this isn't a nice thing to say, but those people are INSANE. i am on a couple of natural parenting groups and have a couple of natural mothering playgroups and i have to work very hard to bite my tongue and not get into it. it's not worth it. they are crazy, arrogant, condescending, hateful, destructive zealots with a lot of crappy science that sounds good on the surface to back themselves up. let them have their heart attacks and colonoscopies along with their self-righteousness...more veggies for us. live and let live. they are really not nice people, IME. they are crazy. just let it go. someday when their health is completely depleted, they'll MAYBE come around, but in the meantime, just be a peaceful person (while thinking delightfully hypocritical thoughts about how awful they are, like me!) and realize that you can't change someone's mind who isn't ready to learn. chandelle' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 Karen, Thanks for the info on Byrnes. I have many problems with the FDA and the USDA and various boards and such. Still, as bad as what we have, it is better than nothing at all. Unfortunately, there isn't enough funding to stop people who are knowingly practicing without credentials. Even though you point out his illegal activities, I could not find any mention of them through a search engine without using ANT, fraud etc. Instead, years after his death, his article continues to be linked. And the WAPers respond to his death by saying Byrnes died of stress and by NOT following the WAP diet during his time of stress. Wow, how's that? Chandelle, I so agree with you. In fact, I am considering giving up the natural parents group that I moderate because I just don't want to " hear " any more of the talk. I've tried to start a veg online group locally but no luck. We have vegs but they are on the national groups or just don't participate in such activites. Oh well! Carrol , " k.beauford " <karen wrote: > > Scott, > > Guess what - you don't need to refute that idiotic article. Do you want to know why???? > Because Stephen Byrnes DIED OF A STROKE AT THE RIPE OLD AGE OF 45!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He died > on June 17th, 2004. Actually, I have heard he may have actually been as young as 39 > years old. Either way, the diet he promoted (rich in meat, organ meats, dairy) did not > seem to protect him from such a horrible event. I feel terrible for his friends and family. > You would think that his death would have served as more of a warning to people, but yet > that stupid article continues to make the rounds while news of his fatal stroke does not. > Anyway, I have definitely seen one particular article which refuted each of his " myths " > point by point, but I don't remember what website I found it on. > > A way to refute the credibility of " Dr. " Byrnes is to point out that he was the founder of a > " school " called the Academy of Natural Therapies (ANT). A major fraud lawsuit was > brought against Mr. Byrnes by the Office of Consumer Protection. The " school " was found > to be a diploma mill and the state of Hawaii then SHUT IT DOWN. So between that and the > fact that the guy is dead due to a disease indictative of poor lifestyle choices, what more is > there to say??? > > But if you would really like to refute it, here is a good link on the b12 issue: > > http://www.vegsource.com/articles/walsh_byrnes_b12_print.htm > > Karen > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 One website I found informative on the subject of B12 is: http://www.vegansociety.com/html/food/nutrition/b12/ Making sure you get enough B12 is important, specialy for kids, because somtimes a deficiancy can create unreversable health problems. So taking a suppliment might not be a bad idear.¨I dont think relying on fortified foods alone is enough. Here where I live we cant even get fortified foods, so if they dont write it on the lable dont count on it. http://www.rawfamily.com/articles/odetogreen.pdf This is a great way to make sure to get enough nutrition, I can highly recomend her book; " Green for life " to get more info on the subject. Then you dont have to worry about getting enough iron, calcium, vitamine A, a.s.o. :-) Kristine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 ok, wait - was byrnes the last director of the WAP foundation before sally fallon took over? i don't know that person's name but i know that person died of a stroke or something around 45 too. wouldn't it be awesome if there were TWO well-known WAP wackos who died young of a diet-related disease? just one should be evidence enough, but seriously, it's like a cult - they'll explain anything away. i don't have any idea of what to do about the natural parenting group. i feel like i've been totally crowded out. i've been considering leaving because i'm so sick of being ganged up on. i'm the only person who is even vegetarian, much less vegan. most everyone else eats a mostly " normal " diet, but there are a few WAPers who are bringing everyone else over to the dark side. one woman in my natural mothering group was trying to go vegan with her family when she joined, because she had a preemie who had major dairy issues and she thought it would be healthier. but she lives in this tiny little utah town where there's no HFS, and she really didn't know how to cook very well, so she had a really hard time, and her five kids were older and her husband was resistant so it was just really difficult. and her preemie kept having major iron issues - which is normal for a preemie because most iron stores are built in the last weeks, but of course she keeps being told by these people that it's because her milk isn't good enough, because of her diet, and she needs to feed the kid, who is about a year old now, 9 months adjusted, raw liver, WHICH DRIVES ME INSANE. she's also being told that if she puts the kid on RAW UNPASTEURIZED dairy then he will have no problem with it. i keep trying to send her articles and give her advice but now she's on fish oil and so are her kids because she was convinced of the inferiority of vegan forms of omegas, and she's buying eggs too, " for the protein. " it makes me feel bad that i'm not being a better vegan ambassador. the really frustrating thing about those people is that they are usually very educated. they make an excellent argument. they sound like they really know what they're talking about. if you ignore all the actual medical evidence, and pay no attention to the fact that all of their " experts " just sit around stroking themselves by quoting each other, they make an excellent case that makes a lot of sense. they've even gotten ME doubting a few things occasionally. but if you whip out some ACTUAL medical evidence, you will invariably hear one of two things. 1), " that's just a front groups for politically-correct vegan extremists. " so you respond, " harvard is a vegan front group? the PCRM is a vegan front group? " to which they respond with 2), " well, i don't pay attention to mainstream medical information anyway. " which makes them sound very pious and intelligent, but actually just proves that their only information comes within this narrow group definition. since when is it evidential when a group sets out to prove something and - gasp! - miraculously finds tons of evidence in favor of their argument? the other crappy thing is that they actually got some things right! WAP himself actually said some things that were totally beyond his time, like that processed foods were what was killing the western world. so when the WAP foundation promotes only whole, organic foods, they've really got it! but mixed up in that is a lot of crap, and since that's the stuff people want to hear anyway, it goes over well. (to which i know dozens of people who would whine, " it's anything but easy to eat this way! do you have any idea how expensive it is to buy local, organically-fed, free-range beef?! " it makes me feel like my head is going to blow off.) ok, thanks for letting me vent. you know, we should just start our own vegetarian natural-parenting group. i live in a very conservative area and having a group like that is my salvation when i can't stand one more uninformed, condescending, i'm-only-asking-so-i-can-make-a-point question about why i use cloth diapers or bother getting donated milk for my daughter or co-sleep or...blah blah blah. i wish it could be local, but i'll take anything at this point if i can have a group where i'm not going to get 50 bashing responses to ANY post i make answering a question about diet. chandelle' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 chandelle', i share your frustration as i am a co-leader of a holistic parenting group which includes members with a mixture of eating styles. luckily, i am not the only vegetarian in our group, and we have only a few WAPFers so it kind of balances out. it is frustrating beyond belief, esp. when the WAPFers are trying to " convert " everyone, and the vegetarians are not. please try to muster up the strength to stay in the group and diplomatically defend your stance. in time, the truth will overcome! here is a copy of two posts i made on the NATIONAL loop of our holistic parenting group when one of the vegetarian members asked a quesiton about being vegetarian and what the WAPF/NT stance on vegetarianism was. after i posted, one of the serious WAPFers on the loop (never met her in person) emailed me offline to ask me more questions and asking my advice on further reading suggestions as it caused her to have second thoughts about the WAPF philosopy! oh - i'll also include some of the emails i wrote to her as i think they helped to sway her. and after i posted on the national loop, a WAPFer in my local group who had seen my post on the national loop came up to me at an unrelated event and THANKED my for my post saying she was glad to see the other side of things and that she was never 100% convinced about the benefits of all that saturated fat. so i feel like i may have almost convinced at least two people that WAPF is not all it is cracked up to be. which is my personal crusade in life! my point is this - stick with your stance, point out the facts, eventually they can't argue with you anymore. about sally fallon/stephen byrnes... she started WAPF, but stephen byrnes was always their " guru " they quoted. when he died, that is when mercola became their guru. but sally has always been at the forefront... anyway, here the posts that helped sway people - feel free to quote extensively to your WAPF acquaintances!!! you never know, eventually one of them might crack! (these are really long, sorry!) MY POST IN RESPONSE TO QUESTION ABOUT NT/VEGETARIANISM: Here is my view (as a vegetarian) of the Weston A. Price Foundation and their stance on vegetarianism: Until recently, visitors to the Weston A. Price Foundation website would find an organization that mocked vegetarians. Within the last year, the website was given a " makeover " to become what I call the " kindler, gentler Weston A. Price Foundation. " Their current stance is that it is possible to be a healthy vegetarian, but ONLY provided you consume plenty of eggs and raw milk. The WAPF still calls a vegan diet dangerous. The foundation does do good by opening the eyes of some to the dangers of processed food, but many experts feel that WAPF misrepresents and exaggerates the work of Dr. Price (a dentist in the `20's and `30's). Those running the foundation believe that in order to be healthy, one must consume large amounts of cholesterol and saturated fat from animal products. If any researchers, authors, or studies point out otherwise, the foundation condemns them as being too politically correct. The woman who is president dispenses a lot of dietary advice, but she has a degree in English (hence her persuasive writing?) but has no degree in nutrition (holistic or otherwise), nor in anthropology, public health, nor anything of the like. This is not to say that one necessarily has to have a degree or training in these areas to understand nutrition. It is just something to keep in mind when reading her authoritative articles. Most notably for vegetarians, the foundation made popular an article called " The Myths of Vegetarianism " which was written by one of their board of directors. This article was extremely negative towards vegetarian diets. At the end of the article, it was noted how the author, Stephen Byrnes, enjoyed a diet rich in butter, eggs, meat, cream, etc. etc. Unfortunately for Mr. Byrnes and his family, he died of a fatal stroke a few years later, in his 40's I believe. Anyway, there are many people who are holistically inclined who vigorously to the teachings of the WAPF. I think that the group does make many valid points. But personally, I seriously think that the foundation tends to select only research that supports their view while failing to look seriously at the bulk of research as well as at the big picture. There is a lot of difficulty associated with the interpretation of nutrition research, which creates a lot of room for disagreement and controversy. But every committee examining the available research on diet and disease risk has been impressed by the health benefits of consuming largely plant-based diets. For anyone who is interested in a critical examination of WAPF by nutrition experts, especially for those who are interested in a plant-based diet, I highly recommend you check out the following links- EXPERT VIEWS ON WAPF: ARTICLES IN A FIVE-PART SERIES WRITTEN BY JOEL FUHRMAN, MD http://www.vegsource.com/articles2/fuhrman_dietary_myths.htm http://www.vegsource.com/articles2/fuhrman_facts_fiction.htm http:// www.vegsource.com/articles2/fuhrman_metabolics.htm http://www.vegsource.com/articles2/fuhrman_primitive.htm http://www.vegsource.com/ articles2/fuhrman_concerns.htm T. COLIN CAMPBELL COMMENTS ON WAPF: See Dr. Campbell's comment on WAPF in this video: http://www.vegsource.com/articles2/ campbell_qa_expo.htm Here is the written response he refers to in the video clip: http://www.vegsource.com/ articles2/campbell_china_response.htm Anyway, just my stance. I'm sure you will get many responses extolling the virtues of the WAPF. I hope this helps you to make an informed decision for you and your family! Best, Karen HERE IS A RESPONSE I POSTED LATER WHEN SOMEONE NOTED THAT DR. PRICE MUST HAVE " MISSED INDIA " IF HE COULDN'T FIND ANY VEG. SOCIETIES: Actually, Price discovered many native cultures that were extremely healthy who ate a lacto-vegetarian diet (dairy and plants foods) or a pesco-vegan diet (fish and plant foods). You asked about India… in fact, Dr. Price had this to say about a group of lacto-vegetarian peoples in India: " The most physically perfect people in northern India. The people are very tall and are free of tooth decay. " Dr. Price penned a letter to his nieces and nephews in 1934. In this letter he spoke of the diet he hoped they would eat, based on his travels and findings. He wrote: " The basic foods should be the entire grains such as whole wheat, rye or oats, whole wheat and rye breads, wheat and oat cereals, oat-cake, dairy products, including milk and cheese, which should be used liberally, and marine foods. " Yet, WAPF has been openly hostile towards vegetarianism as well as diets based on whole grains. These reasons, among others, are why many critics feel that the Weston A. Price Foundation is not necessarily representing Dr. Price's work accurately. Also, one may want to review Dr. Price's work to see if all of the behaviors he finds admirable match with their own feelings. For example, in speaking highly of the Masai tribe, he notes how " these cattle people dominated the surrounding tribes. " They " … forced their way farthest south… " Dr. Price presented these behaviors as desirable. Those seeking a diet that promotes peace may want to be sure their ideals are aligned with Dr. Price's before fully subscribing to his teachings. (By the way, Masai actually have a life expectancy of 45 years for women, 42 years for men. African researchers who studied the Masai much longer than Dr. Price did during his brief visit noted that the Masai rarely lived past the age of 60. The Masai have consumed and still do consume a diet rich in meat.) Dr. Price made relatively short visits to the people he wrote about. He did not thoroughly document their life spans. Mainly he looked at their teeth and made a quick judgment, ignoring other variables. However, he made many good points, and I don't think we should ignore everything he had to say. I would encourage people interested in the works of Weston Price to first research his work directly rather than fully relying on the interpretations of the foundation which carries his name. FINALLY, HERE IS PART OF A LETTER I WROTE IN RESPONSE TO A WAPF-ER WHO CONTACTED ME OFFLINE ASKING FURTHER QUESTIONS: It is easy to see why the Sally Fallon/WAPF philosophy appeals so deeply to so many. Certainly, the dangers of eating processed foods and trans fats are real. Biodynamic agriculture is ecologically indispensable and the only truly ethical way of raising animal products. Fermentation of vegetables and sprouting of grains are certainly two valid ways of increasing the bioavailability of nutrients in these foods. Strict vegan diets can be detrimental if not properly balanced. And certainly, traditional societies may hold nutritional wisdom that we would be wise to pay attention to. Having said this, I must say I have grave concerns about some of the other advice put forth by WAPF. The arguments regarding the benefits of a diet rich in saturated fat, cow's milk, and meat fly in the face of all nutritional science has worked to discover. Many lay people are impressed by the long list of references at the end of their books and articles, but upon closer inspection, one will find that they usually reference their own articles (!) or articles written by other WAPF board members. Also, it has been noted by nutrition experts that some of the other articles they reference are misrepresented. As far as the wisdom of what has been eaten by traditional societies, this is a mixed bag. Granted, many dietary practices of traditional societies were beneficial, but some were detrimental or downright dangerous. The first example that pops into my mind is an indigenous tribe of Papua New Guinea. This tribe practiced the " nourishing tradition " of cannibalism. It was due to the ritual consumption of dead family members' brains that a progressive disease of the central nervous system, Kuru (similar to Mad Cow), was transmitted from family member to family member. It was only after outsiders from developed countries (often not helpful, but this time they were) convinced the tribal peoples to discontinue this practice (it took a lot of convincing since this dietary practice was very important to this group) that Kuru was eradicated. Books on nutritional anthropology have other examples of detrimental dietary practices of traditional societies. So to say that if something is traditional, it is automatically therefore good or beneficial, is not always the case. This approach is much too simplistic. These are some of the reasons why personally, I feel that WAPF is not a great resource for nutritional advice; there is too much dangerous advice mixed in with the good. There are better resources for those interested in fermenting vegetables, sprouting grains, etc. Regarding lactoferrin… it is a highly beneficial component of human breast milk. I have no doubt it can assist adults with iron absorption. It is true that it is also present in cow milk (to the direct benefit of calves). Well, guess what…lactoferrin is also in goat milk (for goat kids), in sheep milk (for lambs) dog milk, horse milk, monkey milk, and rat milk. You get the picture! (I am no vet, but I think it is present in the milk of all mammals.) I'm not certain that it means that cow milk is any more fit for humans to consume than monkey milk or rat milk would be. (Actually, maybe monkey milk would be better for us! At least monkeys don't double their weight in 47 days and have four stomachs like a cow!) I know that WAPF has some kind of argument that cows have evolved to have milk that is " good " for humans, but science has shown that it has far too much protein and saturated fat to be more than a small part of our diets, raw or otherwise. Any beneficial components exclusive to raw milk only confirm to me how great it is for baby cows. Besides, humans have only been consuming the milk of other mammals for about 6000 years, which is even less than the time we have been cultivating grain (about 10,000 years). Many traditional cultures have never taken the milk of other mammals at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 I know you're a perfectly fine vegan ambassador! Those people are just brainwashed and that's why they're not seeing the stupidity of that silly diet of theirs. I left a natural parenting group because there was a conversation going on that was very insensitive and stupid, some idiot was catching mice in snap traps and telling the whole group about how long it took them to die like it was funny or something, then I said that was unnecessary, and then one person posted back that the hamster they had as a kid ate her babies and therefor all rodents are gross... I don't get it. I was so pleased the other day with all the niceness everybody showed when talking about catching mice so they wouldn't be harmed!! This group is way better, on many levels. I know most of everyone on this group is vegan and I'm vegetarian, and yet I haven't been attacked or told I'm wrong or evil or anything like that. True though that we're gradually cutting out eggs and dairy... but still. I know there are some really arrogant and snotty vegetarians and vegans, but for the most part we're nice I think. And we don't die of heart attacks at 45!! Stress alone didn't kill that guy! My dad has worked in a very, very, very stressful job ever since before I was born, has high blood pressure, and eats tons of meat and he's STILL not had a heart attack at the age of 51. I just know it's coming though... I kept telling him after his doctor said he had high blood pressure to stop eating so freaking much meat!! He said no, it's just stress... so what does he do- quit his job to eliminate stress? No! He takes high blood pressure medicine!! High stress plus meat at every meal plus pills galore from high blood pressure, arthritis, and who knows what else... I just don't see him living a long time. Or else he'll be having heart attacks every weekend. chandelle' <earthmother213 wrote: ok, wait - was byrnes the last director of the WAP foundation before sally fallon took over? i don't know that person's name but i know that person died of a stroke or something around 45 too. wouldn't it be awesome if there were TWO well-known WAP wackos who died young of a diet-related disease? just one should be evidence enough, but seriously, it's like a cult - they'll explain anything away. i don't have any idea of what to do about the natural parenting group. i feel like i've been totally crowded out. i've been considering leaving because i'm so sick of being ganged up on. i'm the only person who is even vegetarian, much less vegan. most everyone else eats a mostly " normal " diet, but there are a few WAPers who are bringing everyone else over to the dark side. one woman in my natural mothering group was trying to go vegan with her family when she joined, because she had a preemie who had major dairy issues and she thought it would be healthier. but she lives in this tiny little utah town where there's no HFS, and she really didn't know how to cook very well, so she had a really hard time, and her five kids were older and her husband was resistant so it was just really difficult. and her preemie kept having major iron issues - which is normal for a preemie because most iron stores are built in the last weeks, but of course she keeps being told by these people that it's because her milk isn't good enough, because of her diet, and she needs to feed the kid, who is about a year old now, 9 months adjusted, raw liver, WHICH DRIVES ME INSANE. she's also being told that if she puts the kid on RAW UNPASTEURIZED dairy then he will have no problem with it. i keep trying to send her articles and give her advice but now she's on fish oil and so are her kids because she was convinced of the inferiority of vegan forms of omegas, and she's buying eggs too, " for the protein. " it makes me feel bad that i'm not being a better vegan ambassador. the really frustrating thing about those people is that they are usually very educated. they make an excellent argument. they sound like they really know what they're talking about. if you ignore all the actual medical evidence, and pay no attention to the fact that all of their " experts " just sit around stroking themselves by quoting each other, they make an excellent case that makes a lot of sense. they've even gotten ME doubting a few things occasionally. but if you whip out some ACTUAL medical evidence, you will invariably hear one of two things. 1), " that's just a front groups for politically-correct vegan extremists. " so you respond, " harvard is a vegan front group? the PCRM is a vegan front group? " to which they respond with 2), " well, i don't pay attention to mainstream medical information anyway. " which makes them sound very pious and intelligent, but actually just proves that their only information comes within this narrow group definition. since when is it evidential when a group sets out to prove something and - gasp! - miraculously finds tons of evidence in favor of their argument? the other crappy thing is that they actually got some things right! WAP himself actually said some things that were totally beyond his time, like that processed foods were what was killing the western world. so when the WAP foundation promotes only whole, organic foods, they've really got it! but mixed up in that is a lot of crap, and since that's the stuff people want to hear anyway, it goes over well. (to which i know dozens of people who would whine, " it's anything but easy to eat this way! do you have any idea how expensive it is to buy local, organically-fed, free-range beef?! " it makes me feel like my head is going to blow off.) ok, thanks for letting me vent. you know, we should just start our own vegetarian natural-parenting group. i live in a very conservative area and having a group like that is my salvation when i can't stand one more uninformed, condescending, i'm-only-asking-so-i-can-make-a-point question about why i use cloth diapers or bother getting donated milk for my daughter or co-sleep or...blah blah blah. i wish it could be local, but i'll take anything at this point if i can have a group where i'm not going to get 50 bashing responses to ANY post i make answering a question about diet. chandelle' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 That's very educational! I stopped reading their site when it said vegetarian or vegan mothers shouldn't breastfeed, and that pregnant women should eat livers. Ick. So basically, they took the teachings of a guy whose nutritional advice was based on teeth, twisted it around to promote even more meat-eating, then they die of heart attacks at 45, and people choose this over vegetarianism? Seems a little silly to me. " k.beauford " <karen wrote: chandelle', i share your frustration as i am a co-leader of a holistic parenting group which includes members with a mixture of eating styles. luckily, i am not the only vegetarian in our group, and we have only a few WAPFers so it kind of balances out. it is frustrating beyond belief, esp. when the WAPFers are trying to " convert " everyone, and the vegetarians are not. please try to muster up the strength to stay in the group and diplomatically defend your stance. in time, the truth will overcome! here is a copy of two posts i made on the NATIONAL loop of our holistic parenting group when one of the vegetarian members asked a quesiton about being vegetarian and what the WAPF/NT stance on vegetarianism was. after i posted, one of the serious WAPFers on the loop (never met her in person) emailed me offline to ask me more questions and asking my advice on further reading suggestions as it caused her to have second thoughts about the WAPF philosopy! oh - i'll also include some of the emails i wrote to her as i think they helped to sway her. and after i posted on the national loop, a WAPFer in my local group who had seen my post on the national loop came up to me at an unrelated event and THANKED my for my post saying she was glad to see the other side of things and that she was never 100% convinced about the benefits of all that saturated fat. so i feel like i may have almost convinced at least two people that WAPF is not all it is cracked up to be. which is my personal crusade in life! my point is this - stick with your stance, point out the facts, eventually they can't argue with you anymore. about sally fallon/stephen byrnes... she started WAPF, but stephen byrnes was always their " guru " they quoted. when he died, that is when mercola became their guru. but sally has always been at the forefront... anyway, here the posts that helped sway people - feel free to quote extensively to your WAPF acquaintances!!! you never know, eventually one of them might crack! (these are really long, sorry!) MY POST IN RESPONSE TO QUESTION ABOUT NT/VEGETARIANISM: Here is my view (as a vegetarian) of the Weston A. Price Foundation and their stance on vegetarianism: Until recently, visitors to the Weston A. Price Foundation website would find an organization that mocked vegetarians. Within the last year, the website was given a " makeover " to become what I call the " kindler, gentler Weston A. Price Foundation. " Their current stance is that it is possible to be a healthy vegetarian, but ONLY provided you consume plenty of eggs and raw milk. The WAPF still calls a vegan diet dangerous. The foundation does do good by opening the eyes of some to the dangers of processed food, but many experts feel that WAPF misrepresents and exaggerates the work of Dr. Price (a dentist in the `20's and `30's). Those running the foundation believe that in order to be healthy, one must consume large amounts of cholesterol and saturated fat from animal products. If any researchers, authors, or studies point out otherwise, the foundation condemns them as being too politically correct. The woman who is president dispenses a lot of dietary advice, but she has a degree in English (hence her persuasive writing?) but has no degree in nutrition (holistic or otherwise), nor in anthropology, public health, nor anything of the like. This is not to say that one necessarily has to have a degree or training in these areas to understand nutrition. It is just something to keep in mind when reading her authoritative articles. Most notably for vegetarians, the foundation made popular an article called " The Myths of Vegetarianism " which was written by one of their board of directors. This article was extremely negative towards vegetarian diets. At the end of the article, it was noted how the author, Stephen Byrnes, enjoyed a diet rich in butter, eggs, meat, cream, etc. etc. Unfortunately for Mr. Byrnes and his family, he died of a fatal stroke a few years later, in his 40's I believe. Anyway, there are many people who are holistically inclined who vigorously to the teachings of the WAPF. I think that the group does make many valid points. But personally, I seriously think that the foundation tends to select only research that supports their view while failing to look seriously at the bulk of research as well as at the big picture. There is a lot of difficulty associated with the interpretation of nutrition research, which creates a lot of room for disagreement and controversy. But every committee examining the available research on diet and disease risk has been impressed by the health benefits of consuming largely plant-based diets. For anyone who is interested in a critical examination of WAPF by nutrition experts, especially for those who are interested in a plant-based diet, I highly recommend you check out the following links- EXPERT VIEWS ON WAPF: ARTICLES IN A FIVE-PART SERIES WRITTEN BY JOEL FUHRMAN, MD http://www.vegsource.com/articles2/fuhrman_dietary_myths.htm http://www.vegsource.com/articles2/fuhrman_facts_fiction.htm http:// www.vegsource.com/articles2/fuhrman_metabolics.htm http://www.vegsource.com/articles2/fuhrman_primitive.htm http://www.vegsource.com/ articles2/fuhrman_concerns.htm T. COLIN CAMPBELL COMMENTS ON WAPF: See Dr. Campbell's comment on WAPF in this video: http://www.vegsource.com/articles2/ campbell_qa_expo.htm Here is the written response he refers to in the video clip: http://www.vegsource.com/ articles2/campbell_china_response.htm Anyway, just my stance. I'm sure you will get many responses extolling the virtues of the WAPF. I hope this helps you to make an informed decision for you and your family! Best, Karen HERE IS A RESPONSE I POSTED LATER WHEN SOMEONE NOTED THAT DR. PRICE MUST HAVE " MISSED INDIA " IF HE COULDN'T FIND ANY VEG. SOCIETIES: Actually, Price discovered many native cultures that were extremely healthy who ate a lacto-vegetarian diet (dairy and plants foods) or a pesco-vegan diet (fish and plant foods). You asked about India… in fact, Dr. Price had this to say about a group of lacto-vegetarian peoples in India: " The most physically perfect people in northern India. The people are very tall and are free of tooth decay. " Dr. Price penned a letter to his nieces and nephews in 1934. In this letter he spoke of the diet he hoped they would eat, based on his travels and findings. He wrote: " The basic foods should be the entire grains such as whole wheat, rye or oats, whole wheat and rye breads, wheat and oat cereals, oat-cake, dairy products, including milk and cheese, which should be used liberally, and marine foods. " Yet, WAPF has been openly hostile towards vegetarianism as well as diets based on whole grains. These reasons, among others, are why many critics feel that the Weston A. Price Foundation is not necessarily representing Dr. Price's work accurately. Also, one may want to review Dr. Price's work to see if all of the behaviors he finds admirable match with their own feelings. For example, in speaking highly of the Masai tribe, he notes how " these cattle people dominated the surrounding tribes. " They " … forced their way farthest south… " Dr. Price presented these behaviors as desirable. Those seeking a diet that promotes peace may want to be sure their ideals are aligned with Dr. Price's before fully subscribing to his teachings. (By the way, Masai actually have a life expectancy of 45 years for women, 42 years for men. African researchers who studied the Masai much longer than Dr. Price did during his brief visit noted that the Masai rarely lived past the age of 60. The Masai have consumed and still do consume a diet rich in meat.) Dr. Price made relatively short visits to the people he wrote about. He did not thoroughly document their life spans. Mainly he looked at their teeth and made a quick judgment, ignoring other variables. However, he made many good points, and I don't think we should ignore everything he had to say. I would encourage people interested in the works of Weston Price to first research his work directly rather than fully relying on the interpretations of the foundation which carries his name. FINALLY, HERE IS PART OF A LETTER I WROTE IN RESPONSE TO A WAPF-ER WHO CONTACTED ME OFFLINE ASKING FURTHER QUESTIONS: It is easy to see why the Sally Fallon/WAPF philosophy appeals so deeply to so many. Certainly, the dangers of eating processed foods and trans fats are real. Biodynamic agriculture is ecologically indispensable and the only truly ethical way of raising animal products. Fermentation of vegetables and sprouting of grains are certainly two valid ways of increasing the bioavailability of nutrients in these foods. Strict vegan diets can be detrimental if not properly balanced. And certainly, traditional societies may hold nutritional wisdom that we would be wise to pay attention to. Having said this, I must say I have grave concerns about some of the other advice put forth by WAPF. The arguments regarding the benefits of a diet rich in saturated fat, cow's milk, and meat fly in the face of all nutritional science has worked to discover. Many lay people are impressed by the long list of references at the end of their books and articles, but upon closer inspection, one will find that they usually reference their own articles (!) or articles written by other WAPF board members. Also, it has been noted by nutrition experts that some of the other articles they reference are misrepresented. As far as the wisdom of what has been eaten by traditional societies, this is a mixed bag. Granted, many dietary practices of traditional societies were beneficial, but some were detrimental or downright dangerous. The first example that pops into my mind is an indigenous tribe of Papua New Guinea. This tribe practiced the " nourishing tradition " of cannibalism. It was due to the ritual consumption of dead family members' brains that a progressive disease of the central nervous system, Kuru (similar to Mad Cow), was transmitted from family member to family member. It was only after outsiders from developed countries (often not helpful, but this time they were) convinced the tribal peoples to discontinue this practice (it took a lot of convincing since this dietary practice was very important to this group) that Kuru was eradicated. Books on nutritional anthropology have other examples of detrimental dietary practices of traditional societies. So to say that if something is traditional, it is automatically therefore good or beneficial, is not always the case. This approach is much too simplistic. These are some of the reasons why personally, I feel that WAPF is not a great resource for nutritional advice; there is too much dangerous advice mixed in with the good. There are better resources for those interested in fermenting vegetables, sprouting grains, etc. Regarding lactoferrin… it is a highly beneficial component of human breast milk. I have no doubt it can assist adults with iron absorption. It is true that it is also present in cow milk (to the direct benefit of calves). Well, guess what…lactoferrin is also in goat milk (for goat kids), in sheep milk (for lambs) dog milk, horse milk, monkey milk, and rat milk. You get the picture! (I am no vet, but I think it is present in the milk of all mammals.) I'm not certain that it means that cow milk is any more fit for humans to consume than monkey milk or rat milk would be. (Actually, maybe monkey milk would be better for us! At least monkeys don't double their weight in 47 days and have four stomachs like a cow!) I know that WAPF has some kind of argument that cows have evolved to have milk that is " good " for humans, but science has shown that it has far too much protein and saturated fat to be more than a small part of our diets, raw or otherwise. Any beneficial components exclusive to raw milk only confirm to me how great it is for baby cows. Besides, humans have only been consuming the milk of other mammals for about 6000 years, which is even less than the time we have been cultivating grain (about 10,000 years). Many traditional cultures have never taken the milk of other mammals at all. Kadee Sedtal Brain: " Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering? " Pinky: " I think so, Brain, but if the plural of mouse is mice, wouldn't the plural of spouse be spice? " Check out my new , Classical 2 at http://launch.classical2/ Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with the Search weather shortcut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 my dad had a heart attack late last year. he's 45. granted, he's been smoking a pack a day since he was 15, and that certainly contributed. but my grandfather had a quintuple bypass last year, at 67, and it's not his first surgery and won't be his last, and he's never smoked a day in his life. so what does my dad do? he goes on eight medications, for blood pressure, cholesterol, infection (which he'll have to take the rest of his life so his body doesn't reject the stents), etc. AND he quits smoking, thank goodness and hallelujah, but when i suggest that maybe while he's making lifestyle changes he should improve his diet to make it even more likely that he'll live to see his grandkids grow up, what does he say? " it's mostly genetics. and stress. ok, i'll try to eat leaner beef. but really diet doesn't matter. your grandfather is on 12 medications and this is his third surgery this year because heart disease and bad blood pressure run in our family. " hm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 I bet it'll be a real shocker when you end up NOT having heart problems. But of course it won't be because of your diet, will it? chandelle' <earthmother213 wrote: my dad had a heart attack late last year. he's 45. granted, he's been smoking a pack a day since he was 15, and that certainly contributed. but my grandfather had a quintuple bypass last year, at 67, and it's not his first surgery and won't be his last, and he's never smoked a day in his life. so what does my dad do? he goes on eight medications, for blood pressure, cholesterol, infection (which he'll have to take the rest of his life so his body doesn't reject the stents), etc. AND he quits smoking, thank goodness and hallelujah, but when i suggest that maybe while he's making lifestyle changes he should improve his diet to make it even more likely that he'll live to see his grandkids grow up, what does he say? " it's mostly genetics. and stress. ok, i'll try to eat leaner beef. but really diet doesn't matter. your grandfather is on 12 medications and this is his third surgery this year because heart disease and bad blood pressure run in our family. " hm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 Here's a link to an article on VegSource that specifically debunks one small part of Stephen Bryne's insane arguments: http://www.vegsource.com/articles/walsh_byrnes_b12.htm There was also a reference on VegSource that Byrnes died of a stroke at the age of 45 (yikes....that's me!!), but I found no further details. No time to do in-depth research this week! Liz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 I enjoy this group immensely. However, it would be nice to have a place where co-sleeping and gentle discipline, though accepted, is not off thread. Not that anyone really seems to mind here. But a place to have book discussions and share tips on parenting outside food issues, yet where food issues are a priority would be nice. I started creating our own veg natural parenting site when I decide to search - no need to reinvent the wheel. Sure enough, there is one called healthy parenting that claims to discuss veg living. Here is the link healthy_parenting/ I also want to keep something at a local level because I want playgroups for my child and the ability to make my own real life friends through mutual lifestyles. But, I am definitely in need of more support than I can get at the moment. At this point I welcome questions just so I can have a conversation. Most other Moms just drift away from me now. Sure, there are plenty of young, childless women who are very interested in what I am doing, but no " I know what you've been through today " support. I get vegetarian support or natural parenting, not both at the same time. If this Healthy Parenting group doesn't fit the bill, I will start a vegetarian natural/attachment parenting group. But, I will need help moderating. Do you volunteer Chandelle? Carrol , chandelle' <earthmother213 wrote: > > > > i don't have any idea of what to do about the natural parenting group. i > feel like i've been totally crowded out. i've been considering leaving > because i'm so sick of being ganged up on. i'm the only person who is even > vegetarian, much less vegan. most everyone else eats a mostly " normal " > diet, but there are a few WAPers who are bringing everyone else over to the > dark side. > >> > ok, thanks for letting me vent. you know, we should just start our own > vegetarian natural-parenting group. i live in a very conservative area and > having a group like that is my salvation when i can't stand one more > uninformed, condescending, i'm-only-asking-so-i-can-make-a-point question > about why i use cloth diapers or bother getting donated milk for my daughter > or co-sleep or...blah blah blah. i wish it could be local, but i'll take > anything at this point if i can have a group where i'm not going to get 50 > bashing responses to ANY post i make answering a question about diet. > > chandelle' > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 In a message dated 2/22/07 8:35:09 AM, rtillmansmail writes: > However, it would be nice to have a > place where co-sleeping and gentle discipline, though accepted, is > not off thread. Not that anyone really seems to mind here. > Ahhh such wonderful topics. I am a longtime La Leche League Leader and administrator. I spend my days on these subjects. Enjoy! Pam ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 I just wanted to clear up one possible misconception - vitamin B12 is not usually added to fortified bread (unless the label specifically lists B12 as being added). Miso and tempeh are not reliable sources of vitamin B12. Vegans can get vitamin B12 from fortified foods (some brands of cereal, soymilk, fake meat, nutritional yeast) and/or supplements. Be sure to check the label - a good friend was sure she was buying a fortified soymilk, checked the label and learned it was fortified with calcium and vitamin D but not with vitamin B12. Reed Reed Mangels, PhD, RD Nutrition Advisor, The Vegetarian Resource Group PO Box 1463 Baltimore, MD 21203 www.vrg.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 I had a thought this morning on a similar subject, which might be of use to others on this list. Another of the anti-veg arguments that we often have to face is the issue of soy. We've certainly debunked the anti-soy arguments on this list before! But as a one-line retort, it just occured to me to say to omnivores: " you probably eat more soy than I do. " People don't realize how much soy is hidden in the SAD, both directly and also through the fact that the animals they eat have been fed soy products. Since our family, like most of the families on this list, eat almost everything from basic ingredients instead of pre-prepared foods, the only soy we eat is when we consciously choose to put tofu, etc. in our meals. We don't have soy by-products hidden in everything. Maybe this issue doesn't come up as much for others, but I know I'll need to use that line soon! Liz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 i actually just joined that group yesterday, isn't that funny? if it doesn't work out, i will definitely start a group with you. i KNEW i wasn't the only one who felt out of place amongst the WAPers in AP groups! i completely agree with you - veg support or parenting support but not both. as for parenting support, i can only find that online and occasionally among the parents at my husband's school. veg support, well, we've converted my BIL and his wife to vegetarian and he wants to go vegan, but now that i think of it, i have absolutely no support there at all really. weird that as strangely as i parent, i would have more support for that than living veg. i joined a local natural mothering group almost a year ago. at first, it was completely my saving grace, because my husband and i were doing things SO differently than everyone else we knew and we were constantly being attacked and doubting ourselves and feeling so alone and confused about whether it was really a positive thing to parent instinctively. i joined that group and found a hundred women whose goals and practices in parenting were just like mine!...in every respect but one. in the profile it mentioned vegetarian living, and honestly, when i became an AP parent (long before i knew there was something called " AP " ) i just assumed that healthy food was included in that and that most every other AP parents would be veg, or organic, or whole foods, or local foods, or want to grow their own food, or use CSAs, or all of those at once, because i consider keeping my kids in healthy foods to be absolutely integral to being an AP family. but i have been so, so wrong. or at the very least, with this WAP craze, other people's idea of " healthy " food is way off from my own. it's extremely disappointing to be a part of this natural mothering group, and be told continually that such-and-such is grateful for my knowledge about breastfeeding, or my advice about homebirth, or my experience with co-sleeping, or my ideas about slings, or what have you, and then have that same person turn right around and say, how can you consciously raise your child without animal fat? for a while i had a really wonderful tuesday playgroup. the kids were older or younger than isaiah, but he did fine with them, and let's be honest - playgroups are usually for the parents anyway. it keeps us from going completely insane. but lately the group has been falling apart, most likely because of me...not because i'm veg, although certainly we could never talk about diet, but because i've left the church, and, well...that's another thing altogether. in any case, now i don't even have the playgroup and i'm sort of floating out there with no friends and no understanding family and it sucks! so yes, let's try this group, carrol, and if it doesn't work, we'll start one of our own. i would happily moderate. chandelle' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 i'm pretty sure we get the majority of our b12 from nutritional yeast. we eat so much of that stuff it's sick. when i discovered it as a very new vegan, i was quite dismayed, because supposedly it is so healthy, but it was just disgusting the first few times i tried to work with it. now i love it, especially since i discovered these tofu english muffin sandwiches, which i've been having every morning for the last few weeks. on the subject of nutritional yeast...maybe this is completely gross, but seriously, i have to know...is all that nutritional yeast maybe the reason my pee is suddenly fluorescent?! LOL! On 2/22/07, reed mangels <reedmangels wrote: > > I just wanted to clear up one possible misconception - vitamin B12 is not > usually added to fortified bread (unless the label specifically lists B12 as > being added). Miso and tempeh are not reliable sources of vitamin > B12. Vegans can get vitamin B12 from fortified foods (some brands of > cereal, soymilk, fake meat, nutritional yeast) and/or supplements. Be sure > to check the label - a good friend was sure she was buying a fortified > soymilk, checked the label and learned it was fortified with calcium and > vitamin D but not with vitamin B12. > Reed > Reed Mangels, PhD, RD > Nutrition Advisor, The Vegetarian Resource Group > PO Box 1463 > Baltimore, MD 21203 > www.vrg.org > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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