dairy - no harm? [was: Mars article, and a question]

[Guest guest]

not to mention that most of the hamburger in this country is from dairy

cows, and male calves are sent off for veal.

 

On 5/21/07, Paul Falvo <pfalvo wrote:

>

> With respect, many vegans would dispute the statement that " no harm

> comes to the cow directly [as a result of dairy production] "

>

> > So whereas vegetarians are happy to consume milk because no

> > harm comes to the cow directly

>

> They are still raised in captivity and subject to questionable

> treatment. Then there are the environmental issues associated with dairy

> production. So, really the identical arguments for vegetarianism apply

> to veganism.

>

> I recognise that we probably don't want to get into a debate on this

> list over this issue. And we have freedom of choice in what we eat. But,

> I don't think it is fair to say no harm comes to the cow from dairy.

>

> Maybe more accurate to say, " no harm comes quickly " because the end

> result is the same ... just look at the lifespan of cow's in today's

> dairy farms.

>

> Now over to the lacto-vegetarians to flame me ...

>

> ~Paul

>

>

>

> For more information about vegetarianism, please visit the VRG website at

> http://www.vrg.org and for materials especially useful for families go to

> http://www.vrg.org/family.This is a discussion list and is not intended to

> provide personal medical advice. Medical advice should be obtained from a

> qualified health professional.

>

> edical advice. Medical advice should be obtained from a qualified health

> professional.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

You know usually I don't post anything, but this particular issue is

of course a hot topic. Before everyone goes crazy over who is more

enviromentally friendly, animal friendly, healhier etc. we have to

remember a few things. Being a lacto ovo vegetarian who respects

vegans and their beliefs, I don't believe it is the diet I would

choose for myself. Do I feel that because I eat eggs or consume dairy

I am an evil person contributing to the industry? No I don't. I feel

that I am like many other lacto-ovo vegetarians trying to make a

difference. Albeit small, this is the sacrifice our family makes on a

day to day basis. We all harm our enviroment in one way or another, we

hurt animals no matter how hard we try not to. There are vegans who

unknowingly eat vegetables that are grown from the manure of animals

waiting to be slaughtered. Should they get the nutritional benefit of

their poo? You see it only matters that we try. And we convince others

to try what they can to make a difference. When I first became a

vegetarian I thought it was just about me and my choices. But now I

have a happy, healthy, vegetarian toddler and veggie baby on the way.

I am making a difference in my community of family and friends by

choosing a diet that is comfortable for us to maintain and being

non-judgemental to those around me. I make an effort to educate many

an omnivore on the benefits of just a few changes to their diet while

keeping in mind not to seem to preachy. Maybe we should reflect with

each other on the amazing changes we have helped to encourage in our

small communities and family units. A little positive praise is in

order for all of you who have made the choice to be vegan and

vegetarian. It is a beautiful thing to see people making a selfless

choice for the good of all.

 

 

 

, Paul Falvo <pfalvo wrote:

>

> With respect, many vegans would dispute the statement that " no harm

> comes to the cow directly [as a result of dairy production] "

>

> > So whereas vegetarians are happy to consume milk because no

> > harm comes to the cow directly

>

> They are still raised in captivity and subject to questionable

> treatment. Then there are the environmental issues associated with

dairy

> production. So, really the identical arguments for vegetarianism apply

> to veganism.

>

> I recognise that we probably don't want to get into a debate on this

> list over this issue. And we have freedom of choice in what we eat.

But,

> I don't think it is fair to say no harm comes to the cow from dairy.

>

> Maybe more accurate to say, " no harm comes quickly " because the end

> result is the same ... just look at the lifespan of cow's in today's

> dairy farms.

>

> Now over to the lacto-vegetarians to flame me ...

>

> ~Paul

>

[Guest guest]

That's so true and many baby calves are simply discarded.

 

My husband and I are vegan, but have been raising our daughters vegetarian.

They both have always leaned toward veganism, but living in a small city in

Wisconsin makes cutting out dairy very hard for them when at school.

However the other day driving down one of many country roads with many small

farms we passed by a farm with two dead calves that were rotting only 10 feet

from the small caged area where the dairy cows were kept. We stopped to take

pictures knowing there had to be some health code against having dead animals

just laying around.

Needless to say, it had a great impact on my kids. While I won't force them

to be vegan right now, I'm glad to see that they are fully understanding the

impact of drinking milk and eating cheese.

I wish all vegetarians could see up close what happens to these calves and

mother cows. I understand that we all do what we can and I know the

difficulties of taking the step further into veganism, but hopefully keep an

open mind to it.

chandelle' <earthmother213 wrote:

not to mention that most of the hamburger in this country is from

dairy

cows, and male calves are sent off for veal.

 

On 5/21/07, Paul Falvo <pfalvo wrote:

>

> With respect, many vegans would dispute the statement that " no harm

> comes to the cow directly [as a result of dairy production] "

>

> > So whereas vegetarians are happy to consume milk because no

> > harm comes to the cow directly

>

> They are still raised in captivity and subject to questionable

> treatment. Then there are the environmental issues associated with dairy

> production. So, really the identical arguments for vegetarianism apply

> to veganism.

>

> I recognise that we probably don't want to get into a debate on this

> list over this issue. And we have freedom of choice in what we eat. But,

> I don't think it is fair to say no harm comes to the cow from dairy.

>

> Maybe more accurate to say, " no harm comes quickly " because the end

> result is the same ... just look at the lifespan of cow's in today's

> dairy farms.

>

> Now over to the lacto-vegetarians to flame me ...

>

> ~Paul

>

>

>

> For more information about vegetarianism, please visit the VRG website at

> http://www.vrg.org and for materials especially useful for families go to

> http://www.vrg.org/family.This is a discussion list and is not intended to

> provide personal medical advice. Medical advice should be obtained from a

> qualified health professional.

>

> edical advice. Medical advice should be obtained from a qualified health

> professional.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

oh...that's so sad. you must be a strong woman...i don't think i could do

that.

 

i used to be a pretty militant vegan but these days i just think that we're

all evolving in different ways at different times and it's a personal choice

that i can't possibly push someone into...and i wouldn't want to anyway,

because it would be meaningless.

 

(in this vein, for anyone who cares, i posted my " vegan manifesto " on my

blog the other day:

 

http://ourorganiclife.blogspot.com/2007/05/my-food-manifesto.html )

 

chandelle'

 

On 5/22/07, ben wenzel <jillben2005 wrote:

>

> That's so true and many baby calves are simply discarded.

>

> My husband and I are vegan, but have been raising our daughters

> vegetarian. They both have always leaned toward veganism, but living in a

> small city in Wisconsin makes cutting out dairy very hard for them when at

> school.

> However the other day driving down one of many country roads with many

> small farms we passed by a farm with two dead calves that were rotting only

> 10 feet from the small caged area where the dairy cows were kept. We

> stopped to take pictures knowing there had to be some health code against

> having dead animals just laying around.

> Needless to say, it had a great impact on my kids. While I won't force

> them to be vegan right now, I'm glad to see that they are fully

> understanding the impact of drinking milk and eating cheese.

> I wish all vegetarians could see up close what happens to these calves

> and mother cows. I understand that we all do what we can and I know the

> difficulties of taking the step further into veganism, but hopefully keep an

> open mind to it.

> chandelle' <earthmother213 wrote:

> not to mention that most of the hamburger in this country is

> from dairy

> cows, and male calves are sent off for veal.

>

> On 5/21/07, Paul Falvo <pfalvo wrote:

> >

> > With respect, many vegans would dispute the statement that " no harm

> > comes to the cow directly [as a result of dairy production] "

> >

> > > So whereas vegetarians are happy to consume milk because no

> > > harm comes to the cow directly

> >

> > They are still raised in captivity and subject to questionable

> > treatment. Then there are the environmental issues associated with dairy

> > production. So, really the identical arguments for vegetarianism apply

> > to veganism.

> >

> > I recognise that we probably don't want to get into a debate on this

> > list over this issue. And we have freedom of choice in what we eat. But,

> > I don't think it is fair to say no harm comes to the cow from dairy.

> >

> > Maybe more accurate to say, " no harm comes quickly " because the end

> > result is the same ... just look at the lifespan of cow's in today's

> > dairy farms.

> >

> > Now over to the lacto-vegetarians to flame me ...

> >

> > ~Paul

> >

> >

> >

> > For more information about vegetarianism, please visit the VRG website

> at

> > http://www.vrg.org and for materials especially useful for families go

> to

> > http://www.vrg.org/family.This is a discussion list and is not intended

> to

> > provide personal medical advice. Medical advice should be obtained from

> a

> > qualified health professional.

> >

> > edical advice. Medical advice should be obtained from a qualified health

> > professional.

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Thank you for a very sensitive reply. I too am a lacto ovo vegetarian - I tried

to go vegan recently, but didn't put enough effort into it.

 

Reading the posts on this site, I felt as though I was a terrible person

contributing to the horrors attached to dairy and chicken farming. Maybe it was

a good thing, this is probably how some omnivores feel when vegetarians tell

them why they are indeed vegetarian.

 

I do abhore the practices that go on, but as you have so rightly put, we can

only do as much as we feel able. I don't stop driving my car because of carbon

emissions, I still use electricity and gas because I can't afford to put

necessary steps in place to make my home energy self suficcient, sometimes I

feel guilty because I've bought a mango or kiwi that I know has travelled across

the world. The fact is, we live in this society and step by baby step, we can

begin to make a difference. Well done to those who 'learned to walk' before me

and are further along the ideal road - I am where I am, happy that I am doing a

good thing and striving to do more.

 

Best wishes to you all

 

Claire

 

satilias <satilias wrote:

You know usually I don't post anything, but this particular issue is

of course a hot topic. Before everyone goes crazy over who is more

enviromentally friendly, animal friendly, healhier etc. we have to

remember a few things. Being a lacto ovo vegetarian who respects

vegans and their beliefs, I don't believe it is the diet I would

choose for myself. Do I feel that because I eat eggs or consume dairy

I am an evil person contributing to the industry? No I don't. I feel

that I am like many other lacto-ovo vegetarians trying to make a

difference. Albeit small, this is the sacrifice our family makes on a

day to day basis. We all harm our enviroment in one way or another, we

hurt animals no matter how hard we try not to. There are vegans who

unknowingly eat vegetables that are grown from the manure of animals

waiting to be slaughtered. Should they get the nutritional benefit of

their poo? You see it only matters that we try. And we convince others

to try what they can to make a difference. When I first became a

vegetarian I thought it was just about me and my choices. But now I

have a happy, healthy, vegetarian toddler and veggie baby on the way.

I am making a difference in my community of family and friends by

choosing a diet that is comfortable for us to maintain and being

non-judgemental to those around me. I make an effort to educate many

an omnivore on the benefits of just a few changes to their diet while

keeping in mind not to seem to preachy. Maybe we should reflect with

each other on the amazing changes we have helped to encourage in our

small communities and family units. A little positive praise is in

order for all of you who have made the choice to be vegan and

vegetarian. It is a beautiful thing to see people making a selfless

choice for the good of all.

 

, Paul Falvo <pfalvo wrote:

>

> With respect, many vegans would dispute the statement that " no harm

> comes to the cow directly [as a result of dairy production] "

>

> > So whereas vegetarians are happy to consume milk because no

> > harm comes to the cow directly

>

> They are still raised in captivity and subject to questionable

> treatment. Then there are the environmental issues associated with

dairy

> production. So, really the identical arguments for vegetarianism apply

> to veganism.

>

> I recognise that we probably don't want to get into a debate on this

> list over this issue. And we have freedom of choice in what we eat.

But,

> I don't think it is fair to say no harm comes to the cow from dairy.

>

> Maybe more accurate to say, " no harm comes quickly " because the end

> result is the same ... just look at the lifespan of cow's in today's

> dairy farms.

>

> Now over to the lacto-vegetarians to flame me ...

>

> ~Paul

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

It is a personal choice, just like eating meat. And while I don't think we

should push vegetarians to veganism, sometimes people get stuck and convince

themselves that the next step is just too drastic and difficult. That's where

persuasion doesn't hurt. I know I sat at that point for many years until I

received a real slap in the face. And then when I switched to veganism I found

that it was much easier than I ever would have imagined.

 

chandelle' <earthmother213 wrote: oh...that's so sad. you

must be a strong woman...i don't think i could do

that.

 

i used to be a pretty militant vegan but these days i just think that we're

all evolving in different ways at different times and it's a personal choice

that i can't possibly push someone into...and i wouldn't want to anyway,

because it would be meaningless.

 

(in this vein, for anyone who cares, i posted my " vegan manifesto " on my

blog the other day:

 

http://ourorganiclife.blogspot.com/2007/05/my-food-manifesto.html )

 

chandelle'

 

On 5/22/07, ben wenzel <jillben2005 wrote:

>

> That's so true and many baby calves are simply discarded.

>

> My husband and I are vegan, but have been raising our daughters

> vegetarian. They both have always leaned toward veganism, but living in a

> small city in Wisconsin makes cutting out dairy very hard for them when at

> school.

> However the other day driving down one of many country roads with many

> small farms we passed by a farm with two dead calves that were rotting only

> 10 feet from the small caged area where the dairy cows were kept. We

> stopped to take pictures knowing there had to be some health code against

> having dead animals just laying around.

> Needless to say, it had a great impact on my kids. While I won't force

> them to be vegan right now, I'm glad to see that they are fully

> understanding the impact of drinking milk and eating cheese.

> I wish all vegetarians could see up close what happens to these calves

> and mother cows. I understand that we all do what we can and I know the

> difficulties of taking the step further into veganism, but hopefully keep an

> open mind to it.

> chandelle' <earthmother213 wrote:

> not to mention that most of the hamburger in this country is

> from dairy

> cows, and male calves are sent off for veal.

>

> On 5/21/07, Paul Falvo <pfalvo wrote:

> >

> > With respect, many vegans would dispute the statement that " no harm

> > comes to the cow directly [as a result of dairy production] "

> >

> > > So whereas vegetarians are happy to consume milk because no

> > > harm comes to the cow directly

> >

> > They are still raised in captivity and subject to questionable

> > treatment. Then there are the environmental issues associated with dairy

> > production. So, really the identical arguments for vegetarianism apply

> > to veganism.

> >

> > I recognise that we probably don't want to get into a debate on this

> > list over this issue. And we have freedom of choice in what we eat. But,

> > I don't think it is fair to say no harm comes to the cow from dairy.

> >

> > Maybe more accurate to say, " no harm comes quickly " because the end

> > result is the same ... just look at the lifespan of cow's in today's

> > dairy farms.

> >

> > Now over to the lacto-vegetarians to flame me ...

> >

> > ~Paul

> >

> >

> >

> > For more information about vegetarianism, please visit the VRG website

> at

> > http://www.vrg.org and for materials especially useful for families go

> to

> > http://www.vrg.org/family.This is a discussion list and is not intended

> to

> > provide personal medical advice. Medical advice should be obtained from

> a

> > qualified health professional.

> >

> > edical advice. Medical advice should be obtained from a qualified health

> > professional.

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

ben wenzel wrote:

" And then when I switched to veganism I found that it was much easier

than I ever would have imagined. "

 

I second that -- I was vegetarian for 15 years before going vegan. My

husband and I always said we'd like to go vegan someday... but it would

just be too hard to do it with young kids. Then I picked up Peta's

Vegetarian Starter Kit and read it and my conscience got the better of

me, and we decided we'd start phasing into veganism over a couple of

years. We picked up a couple of good vegan cookbooks. Three weeks later

I realized we were pretty much vegan except for a couple of things in

our kitchen we were still using up. What amazed me most was how easily

our whole family gave up cheese, when we use to eat it constantly -- we

ate one of those mega-block sized ones every week. I can't see us ever

going back.

Heather

 

ben wenzel wrote:

>

> It is a personal choice, just like eating meat. And while I don't

> think we should push vegetarians to veganism, sometimes people get

> stuck and convince themselves that the next step is just too drastic

> and difficult. That's where persuasion doesn't hurt. I know I sat at

> that point for many years until I received a real slap in the face.

> And then when I switched to veganism I found that it was much easier

> than I ever would have imagined.

>

> chandelle' <earthmother213

> <earthmother213%40gmail.com>> wrote: oh...that's so sad. you

> must be a strong woman...i don't think i could do

> that.

>

> i used to be a pretty militant vegan but these days i just think that

> we're

> all evolving in different ways at different times and it's a personal

> choice

> that i can't possibly push someone into...and i wouldn't want to anyway,

> because it would be meaningless.

>

> (in this vein, for anyone who cares, i posted my " vegan manifesto " on my

> blog the other day:

>

> http://ourorganiclife.blogspot.com/2007/05/my-food-manifesto.html

> <http://ourorganiclife.blogspot.com/2007/05/my-food-manifesto.html> )

>

> chandelle'

>

> On 5/22/07, ben wenzel <jillben2005

> <jillben2005%40sbcglobal.net>> wrote:

> >

> > That's so true and many baby calves are simply discarded.

> >

> > My husband and I are vegan, but have been raising our daughters

> > vegetarian. They both have always leaned toward veganism, but living

> in a

> > small city in Wisconsin makes cutting out dairy very hard for them

> when at

> > school.

> > However the other day driving down one of many country roads with many

> > small farms we passed by a farm with two dead calves that were

> rotting only

> > 10 feet from the small caged area where the dairy cows were kept. We

> > stopped to take pictures knowing there had to be some health code

> against

> > having dead animals just laying around.

> > Needless to say, it had a great impact on my kids. While I won't force

> > them to be vegan right now, I'm glad to see that they are fully

> > understanding the impact of drinking milk and eating cheese.

> > I wish all vegetarians could see up close what happens to these calves

> > and mother cows. I understand that we all do what we can and I know the

> > difficulties of taking the step further into veganism, but hopefully

> keep an

> > open mind to it.

> > chandelle' <earthmother213

> <earthmother213%40gmail.com>> wrote:

> > not to mention that most of the hamburger in this country is

> > from dairy

> > cows, and male calves are sent off for veal.

> >

> > On 5/21/07, Paul Falvo <pfalvo

> <pfalvo%40chebucto.ca>> wrote:

> > >

> > > With respect, many vegans would dispute the statement that " no harm

> > > comes to the cow directly [as a result of dairy production] "

> > >

> > > > So whereas vegetarians are happy to consume milk because no

> > > > harm comes to the cow directly

> > >

> > > They are still raised in captivity and subject to questionable

> > > treatment. Then there are the environmental issues associated with

> dairy

> > > production. So, really the identical arguments for vegetarianism apply

> > > to veganism.

> > >

> > > I recognise that we probably don't want to get into a debate on this

> > > list over this issue. And we have freedom of choice in what we

> eat. But,

> > > I don't think it is fair to say no harm comes to the cow from dairy.

> > >

> > > Maybe more accurate to say, " no harm comes quickly " because the end

> > > result is the same ... just look at the lifespan of cow's in today's

> > > dairy farms.

> > >

> > > Now over to the lacto-vegetarians to flame me ...

> > >

> > > ~Paul

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > For more information about vegetarianism, please visit the VRG website

> > at

> > > http://www.vrg.org <http://www.vrg.org> and for materials

> especially useful for families go

> > to

> > > http://www.vrg.org/family.This <http://www.vrg.org/family.This> is

> a discussion list and is not intended

> > to

> > > provide personal medical advice. Medical advice should be obtained

> from

> > a

> > > qualified health professional.

> > >

> > > edical advice. Medical advice should be obtained from a qualified

> health

> > > professional.

> > >

> > >

> > >