RE: Fw: [Wildhearts] Shari's full reply to 'now_honey_please'

August 22, 2002

He's a hunter I expect ---a common one at that You'll never convince him

It would have been better if you had not replied to him You will only get upset by his lies .

Always deny what seems unlikelyto be true unless it is biology . We are omnivores but that doesn't mean we have to eat everything ..Some veg I never eat etc So we don't have to eat animals .

He was talking about non--food animals when you were talking about the cruelty in the meat trade He went off the point and started to lie Why does his horse have a broken hip ? Nothing to do with veganism One off situations are not typical Did someone attack his horse ? Was it deliberate ? It won't have been (or the person was not a vegan .

Animal rights people Never spray at animals LIE..

Live exports are not going to be stopped unless we have Demos in order to bring it into the public eye Whats he doing about it Probably nothing Doing nothing is not another way of tackling it These types of Demos are not noisy when the animals go passed People get too upset . The animals are so squashed and hot/cold . They are miserable any way What is your replier doing about that Nothing . We need to stop it It may make them slightly more stressed but its nothing to what they are going to experoience and if there were no live exports the demonstrators wouldn't be there Writing letters hasn't worked . We need to fight injustices on all fronts . Snatching an animal (by RSPCA) will also cause distress but that is no reason for leaving the animal where it is. Change has to be brought about even if the animals don't understand why we are there. We are there to put pressure on the Government and to bring the situation to the Public via the media

Mink were released to save some of them and to give them a chance of freedom . AR people are not necessarily environmentalists . They are concerned with individuals and want freedon from their disgusting trapped conditions Survival of the fittest is the issue Some mink will survive Of course they will eat animals (But Human Beings eat far more animals so what is the problem-- If he doesn't want lots of animals being killed by the mink how come he's not bothered about the millions killed by humans ? ) Fur farming will stop in a few years Possibly this legislation has been brought about in part by releasing mink

Mink were abundant in this country anyway because some escaped naturally and fur farmers giving up the trade released them .So He can't blame AR people for all the mink in the UK !!! If the greedy cruel fur farmers had been bothered about the environment they wouldn't have started fur farming They didn't consider the environment

Environmentalists and AR are not the same Anymore than A/R and a religious belief . They may go together but do not have to. Our enemies try to confuse the issue by bringing conservation up . Some people here might be both but for me The survival /happiness of an animal is paramount I may recycle sometimes but it is separate .I would give an animal its freedom from oppression (if I had the guts!!!!) Just as I would have fought the slave trade and womens right to vote ( No doubt the slave trade affected conservation !!!!! But the individuals freedom was Paramount )

Message-----BlackVelvetMagazine.Com [shari] 22 August 2002 01:59 Subject: Fw: [Wildhearts] Shari's full reply to 'now_honey_please'

I know I shouldn't bring bringing the debate here but the debate on the Wildhearts list about vegetarianism and animal rights is *really* making me mad! I know you guys will understand! Below is a post someone sent replying to me...

I've tried to stop the debate but still they go on!

<3

Shari

- trace

Wildhearts

Thursday, August 22, 2002 1:57 AM

Re: [Wildhearts] Shari's full reply to 'now_honey_please'

>To now_honey_please and anyone else who is so intent on creating a mass debate with me... >I'd like to remind you that I first mentioned vegetarianism and how I was against animal >cruelty. I never attacked any meat eater until they started attacking vegetarians in which >case I then put my case about how can they seriously care if they eat them. batesy said... >>>I drink because I enjoy it. In the same way as I enjoy chocolate, >>>pizza or crispy duck you replied... >>Ew, crispy duck (btw, I do sometimes get an attitude when it comes to meat - >>since I'm really into animal rights - but that's because I love animals and >>don't see why anyone should eat them... but we won't get into *another* >>debate about that). but several people found it worth debatin'. especially as the original discussion wuz one about beer!! >Thing is, I never really complained about anyone eating meat UNTIL the people that did >started saying that you were born to eat meat - at which point I just said, no, we can live >perfectly well without eating any. yes you did, yes we were, no we can't. we can CHOOSE not to, but don't function as well. >I never attacked anyone, just pointed out the facts and tried to let the subject drop a >couple of times only for others to repeat how they wanted questions answered etc. I never >wanted world war III to take place. you patronised several people, some of whom have several years experience of, an' qualifications in, animal care. about which you know nothing. tellin' us we can't love animals as much as you. you can't make arsey statements an' not expect a degree of arsiness by return. yes, i repeatedly asked to have questions answered. valid questions. a lot more valid than your "facts" as it happens, (please, shari, do NOT repeat the "we were not born to eat meat" bollox again, there are people here with biology degrees, an' detailed knowledge of what a herbivore's digestive tract should look like - an' it ain't anythin' like ours - in short, we know horse-shit when we see it.) animal rights protesters conduct themselves appallin'ly around animals. you, as their self-designated spokesperson on this list...(see above post...you started it)...have refused to reply to this issue. an' several raised since. like if vegans love animals so much, why would they force a cat, a born carnivore to eat vegan cat food? yes, the cats wolf it down. because they're constantly hungry, because they can't fuckin' digest it. if y'don't wanna buy dead animal pet-food, don't get a pet that eats fuckin' dead animals!! d'ya think the animal-lovin', balaclava-wearin' cunt that caused the horse i raised to break his pelvis lost any sleep in the months of x-rays an' examinations it took to determine a) if he COULD recover an' b) would his quality of life be damaged ? we all fuckin' did. an' they aren't one off examples. dozy shits with no knowledge of how nature fuckin' WORKS released scores of farmed mink into the wild, an' fucked the local ecology cuz the poor fluffy mink are vicious little bastards who eat other animals...LOTS OF THEM. strangely enuff, i find fur looks better on an animal, but usin' legislative procedure to put fur farms outta business wuz too slow fer our brave animal libbers who hadn't a fuckin' CLUE what would happen to local small mammals, amphibians & birds-nests whilst they rejoiced over their victorious release of the opressed mink. an' to pre-empt yer next question that yer gonna use to avoid answerin' me...no, i do not think leather looks better on a cow than on conny bloom. y'can eat a cow, as well as use the hide, bones & offal. hairy little predators do NOT make good eatin'. no meat on 'em an' they taste funny... that's why y'don't see mink sausage. y'never get animal libbers goin' at dog-fighters or badger-baiters. y'know, the guys with the broken noses, two b' fours, crowbars an' shovels.... hypocrites of your magnitude fuck me off beyond belief. you know nothin' about animal production, or how it compares to a free-rangin', natural life; how it relates to the environment...nor do you acknowledge those who do. you disregard the cruelty perpetrated by animal rights protesters (police horses do NOT walk into jobcentres an' ask if there's anythin' goin' where y'get shit thrown, jabbed & sprayed atcha by some dreadlocked twat in plastic docs) sometimes against the very animals they claim to want to protect, because their heads are so far up their idealistic arses that they have never considered how it looks "through the animals eyes" 7 day old calves do NOT peer thru the sides of the wagon at a mob of screamin', horn-blowin' predators an' shout a relieved "it's okay, lads, the A L F are here!" they try to run. in an enclosed space. because they're terrified. an' they get hurt. if you shout "i'm not listenin'lalalalalalalalalalala...i'm a better animal lover than you are cuz i don't eat the edible ones lalalalalalalalalalalalalala" as your sole argument, you cannot expect people not to challenge you. an' when they challenge you, they will justify themselves, teh way animals are raised & killed, an' challenge YOU to justify YOUR argument. you can't. or else you would have. p.s. "lalalalalalalalalalalala i'm STILL a better animal lover than you cuz i don't eat the edible ones an' YOU still do lalalalalalalalalalala" doesn't count. "lol"To send an email to -

August 22, 2002

Its better not to bring up such issues on a music chat list. Most people would get annoyed.

I joined to read some of the messages as I thought I could help by joining in But I realised the list owner/moderator had requested that the topic be dropped so I unsubbed ---too old !!!!

BlackVelvetMagazine.Com [shari] 22 August 2002 01:59 Subject: Fw: [Wildhearts] Shari's full reply to 'now_honey_please'

I know I shouldn't bring bringing the debate here but the debate on the Wildhearts list about vegetarianism and animal rights is *really* making me mad! I know you guys will understand! Below is a post someone sent replying to me...

I've tried to stop the debate but still they go on!

<3

---

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release 05/06/2002

August 22, 2002

You have to remember some people lie ,and some argue for the sake of it ,and some people like attaking others for their views . We can't all be nice people .

If he was a hunter etc ( quite possile ) why would you expect him to be pleasant . They are foul killers who don't care about other species

BlackVelvetMagazine.Com [shari] 21 August 2002 22:45 Subject: Re: Re: Fw: [Wildhearts] Shari's full reply to 'now_honey_please'

.... I didn't want to start world war III - I'm ok to say 'ok, let's agree to disagree' but they wouldn't let it lie...

I totally agree in the 'teach but not preach' practise - but these people were shouting at me about how they were born to eat meat etc. I don't want to preach at all but when someone is pushing you so much about your beliefs and telling you how everything you're saying is wrong then... well... I don't stand for that...

<sigh>

<3

Shari

---

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release 05/06/2002

August 22, 2002

*sigh*

it is hard to talk with people

have facts with you shari

there are many historical groups which have not eaten meat

pythagoreans fer one, jains, etc

as for us being born meat eaters..bullshit...if anything..we are omnivores..or

bodily makeup is built toward eating lots of vegetation with a hint of meat,

bugs, etc

we were built to eat fruit and related things....

how do i know??

our teeth fer one...we don't have meat shearing canines, we have tiny

canines...we have molars, we have fruit pulping teeth..nope, we don't eat grass,

which is why we don't have cows teeth, but we certainly don't have wolf our

moutain lion teeth..chimps have sharper teeth then we do

our intestinal tract is hella longer then a lions....

we see in color..why? well..the only reason to see in color is

a. mating plumage

b. see ripe fruit...name a carnivore that sees in color???

oh..and i made that one up by the way..it just makes sense to me.....

dogs and cats don't see color.,....some primates and birds do....

we don't need meat.,...there isn't one single thing we need from meat that we

can't get from plants..the only one would be b12, and i belive the verdict is

still out on that, plus, modern agriculture has pulled all the b12 out of our

soil....

get yer facts...and be armed

then just lay them out and say " ok, these are the facts, take them or not "

and leave it at that

\and, ask

" gee, i'm glad yer not my parents since i'd be terrified if you said ' i love

you' "

fraggle

" BlackVelvetMagazine.Com " <shari wrote:

>I know I shouldn't bring bringing the debate here but the debate on the

Wildhearts list about vegetarianism and animal rights is *really* making me mad!

I know you guys will understand! Below is a post someone sent replying to me...

>

>I've tried to stop the debate but still they go on!

>

><3

>Shari

>

>-

>trace

>Wildhearts

>Thursday, August 22, 2002 1:57 AM

>Re: [Wildhearts] Shari's full reply to 'now_honey_please'

>

> >To now_honey_please and anyone else who is so intent on creating a mass

debate with me... >I'd like to remind you that I first mentioned vegetarianism

and how I was against animal >cruelty. I never attacked any meat eater until

they started attacking vegetarians in which >case I then put my case about how

can they seriously care if they eat them.

>

> batesy said...

> >>>I drink because I enjoy it. In the same way as I enjoy chocolate,

> >>>pizza or crispy duck

>

> you replied...

> >>Ew, crispy duck (btw, I do sometimes get an attitude when it comes to meat

-

> >>since I'm really into animal rights - but that's because I love animals and

> >>don't see why anyone should eat them... but we won't get into *another*

> >>debate about that).

>

> but several people found it worth debatin'. especially as the original

discussion wuz one about beer!!

>

> >Thing is, I never really complained about anyone eating meat UNTIL the

people that did >started saying that you were born to eat meat - at which point

I just said, no, we can live >perfectly well without eating any.

>

> yes you did, yes we were, no we can't. we can CHOOSE not to, but don't

function as well.

>

> >I never attacked anyone, just pointed out the facts and tried to let the

subject drop a >couple of times only for others to repeat how they wanted

questions answered etc. I never >wanted world war III to take place.

>

> you patronised several people, some of whom have several years experience of,

an' qualifications in, animal care. about which you know nothing. tellin' us

we can't love animals as much as you. you can't make arsey statements an' not

expect a degree of arsiness by return. yes, i repeatedly asked to have

questions answered. valid questions. a lot more valid than your " facts " as it

happens, (please, shari, do NOT repeat the " we were not born to eat meat "

bollox again, there are people here with biology degrees, an' detailed

knowledge of what a herbivore's digestive tract should look like - an' it ain't

anythin' like ours - in short, we know horse-shit when we see it.)

>

> animal rights protesters conduct themselves appallin'ly around animals. you,

as their self-designated spokesperson on this list...(see above post...you

started it)...have refused to reply to this issue. an' several raised since.

like if vegans love animals so much, why would they force a cat, a born

carnivore to eat vegan cat food? yes, the cats wolf it down. because they're

constantly hungry, because they can't fuckin' digest it. if y'don't wanna buy

dead animal pet-food, don't get a pet that eats fuckin' dead animals!! d'ya

think the animal-lovin', balaclava-wearin' cunt that caused the horse i raised

to break his pelvis lost any sleep in the months of x-rays an' examinations it

took to determine a) if he COULD recover an' b) would his quality of life be

damaged ? we all fuckin' did. an' they aren't one off examples.

>

> dozy shits with no knowledge of how nature fuckin' WORKS released scores of

farmed mink into the wild, an' fucked the local ecology cuz the poor fluffy

mink are vicious little bastards who eat other animals...LOTS OF THEM.

strangely enuff, i find fur looks better on an animal, but usin' legislative

procedure to put fur farms outta business wuz too slow fer our brave animal

libbers who hadn't a fuckin' CLUE what would happen to local small mammals,

amphibians & birds-nests whilst they rejoiced over their victorious release of

the opressed mink.

>

> an' to pre-empt yer next question that yer gonna use to avoid answerin'

me...no, i do not think leather looks better on a cow than on conny bloom.

>

> y'can eat a cow, as well as use the hide, bones & offal. hairy little

predators do NOT make good eatin'. no meat on 'em an' they taste funny...

that's why y'don't see mink sausage.

>

> y'never get animal libbers goin' at dog-fighters or badger-baiters. y'know,

the guys with the broken noses, two b' fours, crowbars an' shovels....

>

> hypocrites of your magnitude fuck me off beyond belief. you know nothin'

about animal production, or how it compares to a free-rangin', natural life; how

it relates to the environment...nor do you acknowledge those who do. you

disregard the cruelty perpetrated by animal rights protesters (police horses do

NOT walk into jobcentres an' ask if there's anythin' goin' where y'get shit

thrown, jabbed & sprayed atcha by some dreadlocked twat in plastic docs)

sometimes against the very animals they claim to want to protect, because their

heads are so far up their idealistic arses that they have never considered how

it looks " through the animals eyes " 7 day old calves do NOT peer thru the sides

of the wagon at a mob of screamin', horn-blowin' predators an' shout a relieved

" it's okay, lads, the A L F are here! " they try to run. in an enclosed space.

because they're terrified. an' they get hurt.

>

> if you shout " i'm not listenin'lalalalalalalalalalala...i'm a better animal

lover than you are cuz i don't eat the edible ones lalalalalalalalalalalalalala "

as your sole argument, you cannot expect people not to challenge you. an' when

they challenge you, they will justify themselves, teh way animals are raised &

killed, an' challenge YOU to justify YOUR argument. you can't. or else you

would have.

>

> p.s. " lalalalalalalalalalalala i'm STILL a better animal lover than you cuz

i don't eat the edible ones an' YOU still do lalalalalalalalalalala " doesn't

count. " lol "

>

August 22, 2002

I agree these do not sound like very kind people and to Shari I would say you are probably better off not upsetting yourself further with them, you have has put your case for your chosen humane diet and lifestyle, that is all you can do with such people, my advice would be not to reply to the rude ones and only answer people who ask questions politely with an open mind. There may be some lurkers who have started thinking because of you, so try not to let these nasty people get you down too much.

Maybe these people love SOME animals (their pets) as much as vegans do, but they do not respect animals in general as much as vegans, maybe the argument should be more about who really respects animals, not who loves animals more, because as a vegan I consider myself an animal respecter, more than an animal lover.

Who are Wildhearts anyway, are they a metal band?

Lesley

Heartwork [Heartwork]22 August 2002 14:58 Subject: Re: Fw: [Wildhearts] Shari's full reply to 'now_honey_please'

Hi Shari

Wildhearts eh! not known for sensitivity. (sorry :-) )

Some have biology degrees do they? (Pity they don't use their brains better then) Tell them about the lengths or our intestines. Cows and such have long intestines to cope with the rough fibre in grasses. Dogs, cats and such have short intestines so that the meat they eat does not putrefy. Humans intestines are medium length and are best suited to fruits and nuts. I think it is always silly of them to say 'we were meant to eat meat'. We have legs that can walk non-stop for days - how many of them do that?

>animal rights protesters conduct themselves appallin'ly around animals. you, as their self-designated spokesperson on this list...(see above post...you started it)...have refused to reply to this issue. an' several raised since. like if vegans love animals so much, why would they force a >cat, a born carnivore to eat vegan cat food?

Force a cat, ha ha ha! If a cat doesn't want to eat it won't - and it sounds as though they think people keep cats prisoners. Sounds like these biologists don't know much about cats either.

They don't sound like nice people to me! I cannot really give you any advice because I really think you cannot win them over. They will just spout rubbish whatever you say.

Jo

I know I shouldn't bring bringing the debate here but the debate on the Wildhearts list about vegetarianism and animal rights is *really* making me mad! I know you guys will understand! Below is a post someone sent replying to me...

I've tried to stop the debate but still they go on!

<3

Shari

- trace

Wildhearts

Thursday, August 22, 2002 1:57 AM

Re: [Wildhearts] Shari's full reply to 'now_honey_please'

>To now_honey_please and anyone else who is so intent on creating a mass debate with me... >I'd like to remind you that I first mentioned vegetarianism and how I was against animal >cruelty. I never attacked any meat eater until they started attacking vegetarians in which >case I then put my case about how can they seriously care if they eat them. batesy said... >>>I drink because I enjoy it. In the same way as I enjoy chocolate, >>>pizza or crispy duck you replied... >>Ew, crispy duck (btw, I do sometimes get an attitude when it comes to meat - >>since I'm really into animal rights - but that's because I love animals and >>don't see why anyone should eat them... but we won't get into *another* >>debate about that). but several people found it worth debatin'. especially as the original discussion wuz one about beer!! >Thing is, I never really complained about anyone eating meat UNTIL the people that did >started saying that you were born to eat meat - at which point I just said, no, we can live >perfectly well without eating any. yes you did, yes we were, no we can't. we can CHOOSE not to, but don't function as well. >I never attacked anyone, just pointed out the facts and tried to let the subject drop a >couple of times only for others to repeat how they wanted questions answered etc. I never >wanted world war III to take place. you patronised several people, some of whom have several years experience of, an' qualifications in, animal care. about which you know nothing. tellin' us we can't love animals as much as you. you can't make arsey statements an' not expect a degree of arsiness by return. yes, i repeatedly asked to have questions answered. valid questions. a lot more valid than your "facts" as it happens, (please, shari, do NOT repeat the "we were not born to eat meat" bollox again, there are people here with biology degrees, an' detailed knowledge of what a herbivore's digestive tract should look like - an' it ain't anythin' like ours - in short, we know horse-shit when we see it.) animal rights protesters conduct themselves appallin'ly around animals. you, as their self-designated spokesperson on this list...(see above post...you started it)...have refused to reply to this issue. an' several raised since. like if vegans love animals so much, why would they force a cat, a born carnivore to eat vegan cat food? yes, the cats wolf it down. because they're constantly hungry, because they can't fuckin' digest it. if y'don't wanna buy dead animal pet-food, don't get a pet that eats fuckin' dead animals!! d'ya think the animal-lovin', balaclava-wearin' cunt that caused the horse i raised to break his pelvis lost any sleep in the months of x-rays an' examinations it took to determine a) if he COULD recover an' b) would his quality of life be damaged ? we all fuckin' did. an' they aren't one off examples. dozy shits with no knowledge of how nature fuckin' WORKS released scores of farmed mink into the wild, an' fucked the local ecology cuz the poor fluffy mink are vicious little bastards who eat other animals...LOTS OF THEM. strangely enuff, i find fur looks better on an animal, but usin' legislative procedure to put fur farms outta business wuz too slow fer our brave animal libbers who hadn't a fuckin' CLUE what would happen to local small mammals, amphibians & birds-nests whilst they rejoiced over their victorious release of the opressed mink. an' to pre-empt yer next question that yer gonna use to avoid answerin' me...no, i do not think leather looks better on a cow than on conny bloom. y'can eat a cow, as well as use the hide, bones & offal. hairy little predators do NOT make good eatin'. no meat on 'em an' they taste funny... that's why y'don't see mink sausage. y'never get animal libbers goin' at dog-fighters or badger-baiters. y'know, the guys with the broken noses, two b' fours, crowbars an' shovels.... hypocrites of your magnitude fuck me off beyond belief. you know nothin' about animal production, or how it compares to a free-rangin', natural life; how it relates to the environment...nor do you acknowledge those who do. you disregard the cruelty perpetrated by animal rights protesters (police horses do NOT walk into jobcentres an' ask if there's anythin' goin' where y'get shit thrown, jabbed & sprayed atcha by some dreadlocked twat in plastic docs) sometimes against the very animals they claim to want to protect, because their heads are so far up their idealistic arses that they have never considered how it looks "through the animals eyes" 7 day old calves do NOT peer thru the sides of the wagon at a mob of screamin', horn-blowin' predators an' shout a relieved "it's okay, lads, the A L F are here!" they try to run. in an enclosed space. because they're terrified. an' they get hurt. if you shout "i'm not listenin'lalalalalalalalalalala...i'm a better animal lover than you are cuz i don't eat the edible ones lalalalalalalalalalalalalala" as your sole argument, you cannot expect people not to challenge you. an' when they challenge you, they will justify themselves, teh way animals are raised & killed, an' challenge YOU to justify YOUR argument. you can't. or else you would have. p.s. "lalalalalalalalalalalala i'm STILL a better animal lover than you cuz i don't eat the edible ones an' YOU still do lalalalalalalalalalala" doesn't count. "lol"To send an email to -

August 22, 2002

it is really hard

but

some folks would rather argue

it is also easier to argue, because when you argue, you don't think, you just

react...

if you had to think, you'd have to consider the others persons points, and few

folks like to do that..i enclude meself in that

its easier to point fingers and fall into into yer habits and belief

patterns..no thinking required..

my thoughts..make a few points, in why you belive wot you belief..facts,

etc..give a few links..don't make emotional arguments...just a few things,

refute a few things, and then say you are dropping it,..and if anyone wants to

discuss it, not argue, say you would be happy to offlist..

cheers

fraggle

" BlackVelvetMagazine.Com " <shari wrote:

>Graham - Thanks for your reply. Yeah, I guess I should develop thicker skin - I

know I'm too sensitive anyway... I didn't start the discussion on that list

(well, I mentioned vegetarianism but someone else picked up on it and then

started the debate). I don't see why we couldn't have a nice discussion without

things getting so heated. I think it's such a shame that some people don't *try*

to consider animals a bit more. They say they love them and then they eat them.

I can understand them saying they care for animals - I know I did before I even

became veggie years ago, but to say they care as much or more than a veggie is

crazy... and then their rants got worse... I didn't want to start world war III

- I'm ok to say 'ok, let's agree to disagree' but they wouldn't let it lie...

>

>I totally agree in the 'teach but not preach' practise - but these people were

shouting at me about how they were born to eat meat etc. I don't want to preach

at all but when someone is pushing you so much about your beliefs and telling

you how everything you're saying is wrong then... well... I don't stand for

that...

>

><sigh>

>

><3

>Shari

> -

> quercusrobur2002

>

> Thursday, August 22, 2002 8:30 AM

> Re: Fw: [Wildhearts] Shari's full reply to

'now_honey_please'

>

> Shari- If it's not a specifically AR/Veggie discusssion board you've

> got to expect views strongly counter to yours to be expressed and

> not be surprised when you are not met by a chorus of agreement and

> support.

>

> alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian newsgroup is full of this sort of

> thing all the time, alot of folks seem to enjoy points scoring

> rather than genuine dialogue/debate. Personally I consider this kind

> of confrontational mud slinging a waste of time- nobody is remotely

> interested in listening to the other persons POV, just in getting

> their own views accross then getting increasingly wound up when

> nobody listens. It goes nowhere. I'd either avoid bringing up

> vegan/AR issues at this board, or develop a thicker skin ;-)

>

> Sorry if that wasn't the answer you were hoping for, but I've been

> in these sort of exchanges myself on some of the Permaculture

> forums, and have since learned that whilst I don't compromise about

> my own vegan beleifs, if they are relevant to what is being

> discussed I'll put them forward in ways which don't critisise or

> attack others for their views and beliefs. That way the atmosphere

> remains mutually respectful and constructive, and people get to

> actually hear each other, and, dare i say it, to actually change, or

> at least see that the other person is something more than the stereo

> type label that they are putting on each other, eg, Meat eating

> Scumbag v Animal Rights Loony...

>

> Cheers Graham

>

> , " BlackVelvetMagazine.Com " <shari@b...> wrote:

> > I know I shouldn't bring bringing the debate here but the debate

> on the Wildhearts list about vegetarianism and animal rights is

> *really* making me mad! I know you guys will understand! Below is a

> post someone sent replying to me...

>

> <snip flame war from other list>

>

August 22, 2002

Thanks Fraggle & everyone - thanks for those facts - although I've changed to 'No Mail' on there and told them so. I'm not going to post there again. Well, not for a while and when I do it won't be on this subject. Good one about the teeth - they were saying that we have teeth for biting into animal flesh. I'm not knowledgeable enough on subjects like that so I had no idea.

Lesley - The Wildhearts are a UK rock band. I like them a lot.

Thanks

Shari

-

EBbrewpunx

Thursday, August 22, 2002 4:19 PM

RE: Fw: [Wildhearts] Shari's full reply to 'now_honey_please'

*sigh*it is hard to talk with peoplehave facts with you sharithere are many historical groups which have not eaten meatpythagoreans fer one, jains, etcas for us being born meat eaters..bullshit...if anything..we are omnivores..or bodily makeup is built toward eating lots of vegetation with a hint of meat, bugs, etcwe were built to eat fruit and related things....how do i know??our teeth fer one...we don't have meat shearing canines, we have tiny canines...we have molars, we have fruit pulping teeth..nope, we don't eat grass, which is why we don't have cows teeth, but we certainly don't have wolf our moutain lion teeth..chimps have sharper teeth then we doour intestinal tract is hella longer then a lions....we see in color..why? well..the only reason to see in color isa. mating plumageb. see ripe fruit...name a carnivore that sees in color???oh..and i made that one up by the way..it just makes sense to me.....dogs and cats don't see color.,....some primates and birds do....we don't need meat.,...there isn't one single thing we need from meat that we can't get from plants..the only one would be b12, and i belive the verdict is still out on that, plus, modern agriculture has pulled all the b12 out of our soil....get yer facts...and be armedthen just lay them out and say "ok, these are the facts, take them or not"and leave it at that\and, ask"gee, i'm glad yer not my parents since i'd be terrified if you said ' i love you'" fraggle"BlackVelvetMagazine.Com" <shari wrote:>I know I shouldn't bring bringing the debate here but the debate on the Wildhearts list about vegetarianism and animal rights is *really* making me mad! I know you guys will understand! Below is a post someone sent replying to me...>>I've tried to stop the debate but still they go on!>><3>Shari>>->trace>Wildhearts >Thursday, August 22, 2002 1:57 AM>Re: [Wildhearts] Shari's full reply to 'now_honey_please'>>> >To now_honey_please and anyone else who is so intent on creating a mass debate with me... >I'd like to remind you that I first mentioned vegetarianism and how I was against animal >cruelty. I never attacked any meat eater until they started attacking vegetarians in which >case I then put my case about how can they seriously care if they eat them.>> batesy said...> >>>I drink because I enjoy it. In the same way as I enjoy chocolate,> >>>pizza or crispy duck>> you replied...> >>Ew, crispy duck (btw, I do sometimes get an attitude when it comes to meat -> >>since I'm really into animal rights - but that's because I love animals and> >>don't see why anyone should eat them... but we won't get into *another*> >>debate about that).>> but several people found it worth debatin'. especially as the original discussion wuz one about beer!!>> >Thing is, I never really complained about anyone eating meat UNTIL the people that did >started saying that you were born to eat meat - at which point I just said, no, we can live >perfectly well without eating any.>> yes you did, yes we were, no we can't. we can CHOOSE not to, but don't function as well.>> >I never attacked anyone, just pointed out the facts and tried to let the subject drop a >couple of times only for others to repeat how they wanted questions answered etc. I never >wanted world war III to take place.>>> you patronised several people, some of whom have several years experience of, an' qualifications in, animal care. about which you know nothing. tellin' us we can't love animals as much as you. you can't make arsey statements an' not expect a degree of arsiness by return. yes, i repeatedly asked to have questions answered. valid questions. a lot more valid than your "facts" as it happens, (please, shari, do NOT repeat the "we were not born to eat meat" bollox again, there are people here with biology degrees, an' detailed knowledge of what a herbivore's digestive tract should look like - an' it ain't anythin' like ours - in short, we know horse-shit when we see it.)>> animal rights protesters conduct themselves appallin'ly around animals. you, as their self-designated spokesperson on this list...(see above post...you started it)...have refused to reply to this issue. an' several raised since. like if vegans love animals so much, why would they force a cat, a born carnivore to eat vegan cat food? yes, the cats wolf it down. because they're constantly hungry, because they can't fuckin' digest it. if y'don't wanna buy dead animal pet-food, don't get a pet that eats fuckin' dead animals!! d'ya think the animal-lovin', balaclava-wearin' cunt that caused the horse i raised to break his pelvis lost any sleep in the months of x-rays an' examinations it took to determine a) if he COULD recover an' b) would his quality of life be damaged ? we all fuckin' did. an' they aren't one off examples.>>> dozy shits with no knowledge of how nature fuckin' WORKS released scores of farmed mink into the wild, an' fucked the local ecology cuz the poor fluffy mink are vicious little bastards who eat other animals...LOTS OF THEM. strangely enuff, i find fur looks better on an animal, but usin' legislative procedure to put fur farms outta business wuz too slow fer our brave animal libbers who hadn't a fuckin' CLUE what would happen to local small mammals, amphibians & birds-nests whilst they rejoiced over their victorious release of the opressed mink.>> an' to pre-empt yer next question that yer gonna use to avoid answerin' me...no, i do not think leather looks better on a cow than on conny bloom.>> y'can eat a cow, as well as use the hide, bones & offal. hairy little predators do NOT make good eatin'. no meat on 'em an' they taste funny... that's why y'don't see mink sausage.>> y'never get animal libbers goin' at dog-fighters or badger-baiters. y'know, the guys with the broken noses, two b' fours, crowbars an' shovels....>> hypocrites of your magnitude fuck me off beyond belief. you know nothin' about animal production, or how it compares to a free-rangin', natural life; how it relates to the environment...nor do you acknowledge those who do. you disregard the cruelty perpetrated by animal rights protesters (police horses do NOT walk into jobcentres an' ask if there's anythin' goin' where y'get shit thrown, jabbed & sprayed atcha by some dreadlocked twat in plastic docs) sometimes against the very animals they claim to want to protect, because their heads are so far up their idealistic arses that they have never considered how it looks "through the animals eyes" 7 day old calves do NOT peer thru the sides of the wagon at a mob of screamin', horn-blowin' predators an' shout a relieved "it's okay, lads, the A L F are here!" they try to run. in an enclosed space. because they're terrified. an' they get hurt.>> if you shout "i'm not listenin'lalalalalalalalalalala...i'm a better animal lover than you are cuz i don't eat the edible ones lalalalalalalalalalalalalala" as your sole argument, you cannot expect people not to challenge you. an' when they challenge you, they will justify themselves, teh way animals are raised & killed, an' challenge YOU to justify YOUR argument. you can't. or else you would have.>> p.s. "lalalalalalalalalalalala i'm STILL a better animal lover than you cuz i don't eat the edible ones an' YOU still do lalalalalalalalalalala" doesn't count. "lol">>>>To send an email to -

August 22, 2002

Was it the Wildhearsts who did Suckerpunch? I like that one.

Jo

Thanks Fraggle & everyone - thanks for those facts - although I've changed to 'No Mail' on there and told them so. I'm not going to post there again. Well, not for a while and when I do it won't be on this subject. Good one about the teeth - they were saying that we have teeth for biting into animal flesh. I'm not knowledgeable enough on subjects like that so I had no idea.

Lesley - The Wildhearts are a UK rock band. I like them a lot.

Thanks

Shari

-

EBbrewpunx

Thursday, August 22, 2002 4:19 PM

RE: Fw: [Wildhearts] Shari's full reply to 'now_honey_please'

*sigh*it is hard to talk with peoplehave facts with you sharithere are many historical groups which have not eaten meatpythagoreans fer one, jains, etcas for us being born meat eaters..bullshit...if anything..we are omnivores..or bodily makeup is built toward eating lots of vegetation with a hint of meat, bugs, etcwe were built to eat fruit and related things....how do i know??our teeth fer one...we don't have meat shearing canines, we have tiny canines...we have molars, we have fruit pulping teeth..nope, we don't eat grass, which is why we don't have cows teeth, but we certainly don't have wolf our moutain lion teeth..chimps have sharper teeth then we doour intestinal tract is hella longer then a lions....we see in color..why? well..the only reason to see in color isa. mating plumageb. see ripe fruit...name a carnivore that sees in color???oh..and i made that one up by the way..it just makes sense to me.....dogs and cats don't see color.,....some primates and birds do....we don't need meat.,...there isn't one single thing we need from meat that we can't get from plants..the only one would be b12, and i belive the verdict is still out on that, plus, modern agriculture has pulled all the b12 out of our soil....get yer facts...and be armedthen just lay them out and say "ok, these are the facts, take them or not"and leave it at that\and, ask"gee, i'm glad yer not my parents since i'd be terrified if you said ' i love you'" fraggle"BlackVelvetMagazine.Com" <shari wrote:>I know I shouldn't bring bringing the debate here but the debate on the Wildhearts list about vegetarianism and animal rights is *really* making me mad! I know you guys will understand! Below is a post someone sent replying to me...>>I've tried to stop the debate but still they go on!>><3>Shari>>->trace>Wildhearts >Thursday, August 22, 2002 1:57 AM>Re: [Wildhearts] Shari's full reply to 'now_honey_please'>>> >To now_honey_please and anyone else who is so intent on creating a mass debate with me... >I'd like to remind you that I first mentioned vegetarianism and how I was against animal >cruelty. I never attacked any meat eater until they started attacking vegetarians in which >case I then put my case about how can they seriously care if they eat them.>> batesy said...> >>>I drink because I enjoy it. In the same way as I enjoy chocolate,> >>>pizza or crispy duck>> you replied...> >>Ew, crispy duck (btw, I do sometimes get an attitude when it comes to meat -> >>since I'm really into animal rights - but that's because I love animals and> >>don't see why anyone should eat them... but we won't get into *another*> >>debate about that).>> but several people found it worth debatin'. especially as the original discussion wuz one about beer!!>> >Thing is, I never really complained about anyone eating meat UNTIL the people that did >started saying that you were born to eat meat - at which point I just said, no, we can live >perfectly well without eating any.>> yes you did, yes we were, no we can't. we can CHOOSE not to, but don't function as well.>> >I never attacked anyone, just pointed out the facts and tried to let the subject drop a >couple of times only for others to repeat how they wanted questions answered etc. I never >wanted world war III to take place.>>> you patronised several people, some of whom have several years experience of, an' qualifications in, animal care. about which you know nothing. tellin' us we can't love animals as much as you. you can't make arsey statements an' not expect a degree of arsiness by return. yes, i repeatedly asked to have questions answered. valid questions. a lot more valid than your "facts" as it happens, (please, shari, do NOT repeat the "we were not born to eat meat" bollox again, there are people here with biology degrees, an' detailed knowledge of what a herbivore's digestive tract should look like - an' it ain't anythin' like ours - in short, we know horse-shit when we see it.)>> animal rights protesters conduct themselves appallin'ly around animals. you, as their self-designated spokesperson on this list...(see above post...you started it)...have refused to reply to this issue. an' several raised since. like if vegans love animals so much, why would they force a cat, a born carnivore to eat vegan cat food? yes, the cats wolf it down. because they're constantly hungry, because they can't fuckin' digest it. if y'don't wanna buy dead animal pet-food, don't get a pet that eats fuckin' dead animals!! d'ya think the animal-lovin', balaclava-wearin' cunt that caused the horse i raised to break his pelvis lost any sleep in the months of x-rays an' examinations it took to determine a) if he COULD recover an' b) would his quality of life be damaged ? we all fuckin' did. an' they aren't one off examples.>>> dozy shits with no knowledge of how nature fuckin' WORKS released scores of farmed mink into the wild, an' fucked the local ecology cuz the poor fluffy mink are vicious little bastards who eat other animals...LOTS OF THEM. strangely enuff, i find fur looks better on an animal, but usin' legislative procedure to put fur farms outta business wuz too slow fer our brave animal libbers who hadn't a fuckin' CLUE what would happen to local small mammals, amphibians & birds-nests whilst they rejoiced over their victorious release of the opressed mink.>> an' to pre-empt yer next question that yer gonna use to avoid answerin' me...no, i do not think leather looks better on a cow than on conny bloom.>> y'can eat a cow, as well as use the hide, bones & offal. hairy little predators do NOT make good eatin'. no meat on 'em an' they taste funny... that's why y'don't see mink sausage.>> y'never get animal libbers goin' at dog-fighters or badger-baiters. y'know, the guys with the broken noses, two b' fours, crowbars an' shovels....>> hypocrites of your magnitude fuck me off beyond belief. you know nothin' about animal production, or how it compares to a free-rangin', natural life; how it relates to the environment...nor do you acknowledge those who do. you disregard the cruelty perpetrated by animal rights protesters (police horses do NOT walk into jobcentres an' ask if there's anythin' goin' where y'get shit thrown, jabbed & sprayed atcha by some dreadlocked twat in plastic docs) sometimes against the very animals they claim to want to protect, because their heads are so far up their idealistic arses that they have never considered how it looks "through the animals eyes" 7 day old calves do NOT peer thru the sides of the wagon at a mob of screamin', horn-blowin' predators an' shout a relieved "it's okay, lads, the A L F are here!" they try to run. in an enclosed space. because they're terrified. an' they get hurt.>> if you shout "i'm not listenin'lalalalalalalalalalala...i'm a better animal lover than you are cuz i don't eat the edible ones lalalalalalalalalalalalalala" as your sole argument, you cannot expect people not to challenge you. an' when they challenge you, they will justify themselves, teh way animals are raised & killed, an' challenge YOU to justify YOUR argument. you can't. or else you would have.>> p.s. "lalalalalalalalalalalala i'm STILL a better animal lover than you cuz i don't eat the edible ones an' YOU still do lalalalalalalalalalala" doesn't count. "lol">>>>To send an email to -

August 22, 2002

if we did, then ask em to go take down a cow with tooth and claw....

go on

i'll wait patiently fer the results...

" BlackVelvetMagazine.Com " <shari wrote:

>Thanks Fraggle & everyone - thanks for those facts - although I've changed to

'No Mail' on there and told them so. I'm not going to post there again. Well,

not for a while and when I do it won't be on this subject. Good one about the

teeth - they were saying that we have teeth for biting into animal flesh. I'm

not knowledgeable enough on subjects like that so I had no idea.

>

>Lesley - The Wildhearts are a UK rock band. I like them a lot.

>

>Thanks

>

>Shari

> -

> EBbrewpunx

>

> Thursday, August 22, 2002 4:19 PM

> RE: Fw: [Wildhearts] Shari's full reply to

'now_honey_please'

>

> *sigh*

> it is hard to talk with people

> have facts with you shari

> there are many historical groups which have not eaten meat

> pythagoreans fer one, jains, etc

> as for us being born meat eaters..bullshit...if anything..we are

omnivores..or bodily makeup is built toward eating lots of vegetation with a

hint of meat, bugs, etc

> we were built to eat fruit and related things....

> how do i know??

> our teeth fer one...we don't have meat shearing canines, we have tiny

canines...we have molars, we have fruit pulping teeth..nope, we don't eat grass,

which is why we don't have cows teeth, but we certainly don't have wolf our

moutain lion teeth..chimps have sharper teeth then we do

> our intestinal tract is hella longer then a lions....

> we see in color..why? well..the only reason to see in color is

> a. mating plumage

> b. see ripe fruit...name a carnivore that sees in color???

> oh..and i made that one up by the way..it just makes sense to me.....

> dogs and cats don't see color.,....some primates and birds do....

>

> we don't need meat.,...there isn't one single thing we need from meat that we

can't get from plants..the only one would be b12, and i belive the verdict is

still out on that, plus, modern agriculture has pulled all the b12 out of our

soil....

>

> get yer facts...and be armed

> then just lay them out and say " ok, these are the facts, take them or not "

> and leave it at that

> \and, ask

> " gee, i'm glad yer not my parents since i'd be terrified if you said ' i love

you' "

> fraggle

>

> " BlackVelvetMagazine.Com " <shari wrote:

>

> >I know I shouldn't bring bringing the debate here but the debate on the

Wildhearts list about vegetarianism and animal rights is *really* making me mad!

I know you guys will understand! Below is a post someone sent replying to me...

> >

> >I've tried to stop the debate but still they go on!

> >

> ><3

> >Shari

> >

> >-

> >trace

> >Wildhearts

> >Thursday, August 22, 2002 1:57 AM

> >Re: [Wildhearts] Shari's full reply to 'now_honey_please'

> >

> > >To now_honey_please and anyone else who is so intent on creating a mass

debate with me... >I'd like to remind you that I first mentioned vegetarianism

and how I was against animal >cruelty. I never attacked any meat eater until

they started attacking vegetarians in which >case I then put my case about how

can they seriously care if they eat them.

> >

> > batesy said...

> > >>>I drink because I enjoy it. In the same way as I enjoy chocolate,

> > >>>pizza or crispy duck

> >

> > you replied...

> > >>Ew, crispy duck (btw, I do sometimes get an attitude when it comes to

meat -

> > >>since I'm really into animal rights - but that's because I love animals

and

> > >>don't see why anyone should eat them... but we won't get into *another*

> > >>debate about that).

> >

> > but several people found it worth debatin'. especially as the original

discussion wuz one about beer!!

> >

> > >Thing is, I never really complained about anyone eating meat UNTIL the

people that did >started saying that you were born to eat meat - at which point

I just said, no, we can live >perfectly well without eating any.

> >

> > yes you did, yes we were, no we can't. we can CHOOSE not to, but don't

function as well.

> >

> > >I never attacked anyone, just pointed out the facts and tried to let the

subject drop a >couple of times only for others to repeat how they wanted

questions answered etc. I never >wanted world war III to take place.

> >

> > you patronised several people, some of whom have several years experience

of, an' qualifications in, animal care. about which you know nothing. tellin'

us we can't love animals as much as you. you can't make arsey statements an'

not expect a degree of arsiness by return. yes, i repeatedly asked to have

questions answered. valid questions. a lot more valid than your " facts " as it

happens, (please, shari, do NOT repeat the " we were not born to eat meat "

bollox again, there are people here with biology degrees, an' detailed

knowledge of what a herbivore's digestive tract should look like - an' it ain't

anythin' like ours - in short, we know horse-shit when we see it.)

> >

> > animal rights protesters conduct themselves appallin'ly around animals.

you, as their self-designated spokesperson on this list...(see above post...you