Guest guest Posted August 26, 2002 Report Share Posted August 26, 2002 This is for those that have read or will read Genisis,1-27 through to chapter 2.It seems to be saying we should be ruling over the Earth and subduing the creatures and that we should be helping to make sure that they eat the plants and not each other.Is there anyone else out there that can see that interpretation as being the correct one? vegg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2002 Report Share Posted August 26, 2002 as far as i can tell..it sez dominion.... depends on intreptation.. if yer folks go out and leave you in charge of yer little sister...you are given " dominion " over her... doesn't mean you are going to club her over the head and eat her.... fraggle " vegicate1 " <simonpjones wrote: >This is for those that have read or will read Genisis,1-27 through to >chapter 2.It seems to be saying we should be ruling over the Earth >and subduing the creatures and that we should be helping to make sure >that they eat the plants and not each other.Is there anyone else out >there that can see that interpretation as being the correct one? >vegg > > > >To send an email to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2002 Report Share Posted August 26, 2002 , I have read dominion,rule and subdue,I'm sure their meaning is ment to look- after,guide,help, those types of meanings.I am more interested in opinions on the suggestion that we are to help the animals, as well as humans to stop eating animals. vegg EBbrewpunx@c... wrote: > as far as i can tell..it sez dominion.... > depends on intreptation.. > if yer folks go out and leave you in charge of yer little sister...you are given " dominion " over her... > doesn't mean you are going to club her over the head and eat her.... > fraggle > > > " vegicate1 " <simonpjones@o...> wrote: > > >This is for those that have read or will read Genisis,1-27 through to > >chapter 2.It seems to be saying we should be ruling over the Earth > >and subduing the creatures and that we should be helping to make sure > >that they eat the plants and not each other.Is there anyone else out > >there that can see that interpretation as being the correct one? > >vegg > > > > > > > >To send an email to - > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2002 Report Share Posted August 27, 2002 B " H Excuse me, but I have been accused (wrongly) of not letting anyone talk about their beliefs, of assuming that all people believe in One G-d and Only One G-d and of stifling debate. Honestly, I don't care how long you have STUDIED Judaism. You obviously still know very little about it. The sources you mention are like, I hope I'm using a good analogy, but it seems to me that this is like asking Martin Luther about Catholicism or asking the Taliban about Buddhism. Studying inaccuracies doesn't make you an expert on something. Now, if you had spent 10 years studying with Menachem Mendel Shneerson, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, or Rav Ovadiah Yosef, the Chief Sephardic Rabbi of Israel, or with any one of many true experts on Judaism, then maybe you could tell me about Judaism. I've been studying Judaism since I was born, basically, through practice, school, classes, one-on-one study with Rabbis, etc. I think my 47 years beats your 10 years. Especially since my 47 years has been steeped in Judaism. I live Judaism 24 hours a day 7 days a week 365 days a year. How many hours a day do you spend studying (not doing, mind you) Judaism? I have taken great pains to NOT put down any one else's beliefs (by beliefs I mean faith, spiritual essense etc.). If someone's " beliefs " (and by this I don't mean faith, I mean what someone believes to be true) are inaccurate (remember, GIGO -- garbage in, garbage out -- just as you would get inaccurate nutritional information by reading the nutritional information put out by the meat and dairy industry, so too you will get inaccurate information about Judaism by reading anti-Jewish sources or sources that take all religions to be primitive, ignorant rantings of superstitious people). If someone puts down my belief (and, believe me, you aren't the first), I will continue to defend it. If you choose to misinterpret this defense as my saying that only Jews are right, then that's your choice, but I never said that (in part because I don't believe it -- anyone can be a good person -- and there are guidelines for people who aren't Jewish in the Torah too -- basically, these guidelines include not murdering, not stealing, etc.) I also have said on numerous occasions that when I state what the Torah says, I'm stating what the Torah says. I'm not saying that anyone is a horrible person if they don't follow it or even that they are stupid or wrong or anything like that. I choose to follow (my interpretation of) the Torah. I also find that my life is better when I follow these but I know that's not true of everyone. And that's cool. That's what makes the world go round. But we also must be respectful of people's beliefs and not assume we know what someone else's beliefs are based on something we read in someone's book or because we once knew someone who prefessed to that faith. I've been exposed to more misunderstanding and misinformation about Judaism that people are SO, SO sure is true and that I, who have been doing this for my entire life, am wrong, so so wrong. I'm also kind of disappointed. I'm disappointed that people who I thought were open minded might not be as open minded as I thought they were..... Sigh! Debbie Hi Debbie > But it seems to > me that some people are taking quite a number of liberties with my > beliefs, assuming they know what Judaism is and what it says about > this or that. I'm sorry, but I find that offensive. As I have been studying the history of religions for about 10 years, and obviously quite a bit of that time has involved study of the history of Judaism - I also run the Ancient Bible History list, which is filled with some very knowledgable people from all religions - I believe that I am probably more qualified to comment on the history of that religion than anyone else on this list. I do not see that, just because you follow that religion, you have any right to stifle debate on how it began or what it has entailed in the past. I guess Cathy was right - it's OK for you to state your beliefs as though they are fact, but it's not acceptable for anyone else to even state their beliefs! BB Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2002 Report Share Posted August 27, 2002 , What is your opinion on the verse in Genesis 1-27 on to Gen 2,my interpretation is,that no human or animal should be eating animal and that we should be trying to bring that about!whats your interpretation? simon " compugraphd " <compugraphd@e...> wrote: > B " H > > Excuse me, but I have been accused (wrongly) of not letting anyone > talk about their beliefs, of assuming that all people believe in One > G-d and Only One G-d and of stifling debate. > > Honestly, I don't care how long you have STUDIED Judaism. You > obviously still know very little about it. The sources you mention > are like, I hope I'm using a good analogy, but it seems to me that > this is like asking Martin Luther about Catholicism or asking the > Taliban about Buddhism. Studying inaccuracies doesn't make you an > expert on something. Now, if you had spent 10 years studying with > Menachem Mendel Shneerson, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, or Rav Ovadiah > Yosef, the Chief Sephardic Rabbi of Israel, or with any one of many > true experts on Judaism, then maybe you could tell me about Judaism. > I've been studying Judaism since I was born, basically, through > practice, school, classes, one-on-one study with Rabbis, etc. I think > my 47 years beats your 10 years. Especially since my 47 years has > been steeped in Judaism. I live Judaism 24 hours a day 7 days a week > 365 days a year. How many hours a day do you spend studying (not > doing, mind you) Judaism? > > I have taken great pains to NOT put down any one else's beliefs (by > beliefs I mean faith, spiritual essense etc.). If someone's " beliefs " > (and by this I don't mean faith, I mean what someone believes to be > true) are inaccurate (remember, GIGO -- garbage in, garbage out -- > just as you would get inaccurate nutritional information by reading > the nutritional information put out by the meat and dairy industry, > so too you will get inaccurate information about Judaism by reading > anti-Jewish sources or sources that take all religions to be > primitive, ignorant rantings of superstitious people). > > If someone puts down my belief (and, believe me, you aren't the > first), I will continue to defend it. If you choose to misinterpret > this defense as my saying that only Jews are right, then that's your > choice, but I never said that (in part because I don't believe it -- > anyone can be a good person -- and there are guidelines for people > who aren't Jewish in the Torah too -- basically, these guidelines > include not murdering, not stealing, etc.) > > I also have said on numerous occasions that when I state what the > Torah says, I'm stating what the Torah says. I'm not saying that > anyone is a horrible person if they don't follow it or even that they > are stupid or wrong or anything like that. I choose to follow (my > interpretation of) the Torah. I also find that my life is better when > I follow these but I know that's not true of everyone. And that's > cool. That's what makes the world go round. But we also must be > respectful of people's beliefs and not assume we know what someone > else's beliefs are based on something we read in someone's book or > because we once knew someone who prefessed to that faith. I've been > exposed to more misunderstanding and misinformation about Judaism > that people are SO, SO sure is true and that I, who have been doing > this for my entire life, am wrong, so so wrong. > > I'm also kind of disappointed. I'm disappointed that people who I > thought were open minded might not be as open minded as I thought > they were..... > > Sigh! > > Debbie > > > > > Hi Debbie > > > But it seems to > > me that some people are taking quite a number of liberties with my > > beliefs, assuming they know what Judaism is and what it says about > > this or that. I'm sorry, but I find that offensive. > > As I have been studying the history of religions for about 10 years, > and obviously quite a bit of that time has involved study of the > history of Judaism - I also run the Ancient Bible History list, which > is filled with some very knowledgable people from all religions - I > believe that I am probably more qualified to comment on the history > of that religion than anyone else on this list. I do not see that, > just because you follow that religion, you have any right to stifle > debate on how it began or what it has entailed in the past. I guess > Cathy was right - it's OK for you to state your beliefs as though > they are fact, but it's not acceptable for anyone else to even state > their beliefs! > > BB > Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2002 Report Share Posted August 27, 2002 B " H [ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2002 Report Share Posted August 27, 2002 , " vegicate1 " <simonpjones@o...> wrote: > , > What is your opinion on the verse in Genesis 1-27 on to Gen 2,my > interpretation is,that no human or animal should be eating animal and > that we should be trying to bring that about!whats your > interpretation? That it's a load of cobblers! (no disrespect Simon) :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2002 Report Share Posted August 27, 2002 Hi Debbie I would just like to make it quite clear that nobody in my family reads any " anti-Jewish " (or any other ant-irace or religion) literature, and I hope you will not try to make it look as though we do. I for one do not want it hinted at that I or any of my family are anti-Jewish. Jo > > so too you will get inaccurate information about Judaism by reading > anti-Jewish sources or sources that take all religions to be > primitive, ignorant rantings of superstitious people). --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release 02/08/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2002 Report Share Posted August 27, 2002 Hi Debbie > Honestly, I don't care how long you have STUDIED Judaism. You > obviously still know very little about it. The sources you mention > are like, I hope I'm using a good analogy, but it seems to me that > this is like asking Martin Luther about Catholicism or asking the > Taliban about Buddhism. I have studied many different sources. The difference between us is that I am able to look at both sides and make a rational decision on what is correct, not based on a belief which constricts my abilities to make these decisions. I should mention that the Ancient Bible History list I run is recommended as an educational tool by numerous colleges and universities worldwide, which I think gives me some ability to comment. However, I should point out that the sources I cite are from very well respected authors. Martin Noth is, I believe, Jewish, but he does not let it affect hsi view of history. Karen Armstrong is generally recognised as one of the leading experts in monotheistic religions (and was a Catholic nun), others are atheists and one or two Moslems. > Studying inaccuracies doesn't make you an > expert on something. Now, if you had spent 10 years studying with > Menachem Mendel Shneerson, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, or Rav Ovadiah > Yosef, the Chief Sephardic Rabbi of Israel, or with any one of many > true experts on Judaism, then maybe you could tell me about Judaism. I am talking about the history of Judaism. I have very little interest in what modern Judaism means. I do believe that my degree from a well respected university does tend to suggest that I am actually an expert in the subject. > I'm also kind of disappointed. I'm disappointed that people who I > thought were open minded might not be as open minded as I thought > they were..... Open minded means able to discuss both sides of the story - you only seem willing to accept what is stated by the scriptures and the elders of your religion, and this is not an open minded attitude. I would very much welcome your historical input, but find your attacks on views which oppose your own to be a little tiresome. BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release 02/08/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2002 Report Share Posted August 27, 2002 , y..., " vegicate1 " <simonpjones@o...> wrote: > > , > > What is your opinion on the verse in Genesis 1-27 on to Gen 2,my > > interpretation is,that no human or animal should be eating animals > and > > that we should be trying to bring that about!whats your > > interpretation? > > That it's a load of cobblers! > > (no disrespect Simon) > > :-)sorry, whats a load of cobblers! I was asking for opinions on the verses,as I am interested in hearing how others interpret what the writer was trying to say!''what was in the writers mind before writing the verses?,''.Do you have an opinion or an interpretation?. Pretend you have never heard of,or have read the Bible before in your life and just stumbled across it somewhere and just opened the first page and read the verses,what would you make of the writers'intent? (no disrespect taken Graham,I just hope you are able to understand the question) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2002 Report Share Posted August 27, 2002 Pretend you have never heard of,or have read the Bible before in your > life and just stumbled across it somewhere and just opened the first > page and read the verses,what would you make of the writers'intent? > What is the verse? Can you quote it please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2002 Report Share Posted August 27, 2002 B " H Actually, I was referring to Karen Armstrong -- she's a former nun who converted to Islam.... more than enough motivation to make Judaism seem like an ancient mythological throwback. Peter mentioned her and used his study of her as " proof " of his " knowledge " of the history of Judaism. Just because someone writes a book that says something doesn't mean it's true. And her views are decidedly not. Debbie Hi Debbie I would just like to make it quite clear that nobody in my family reads any " anti-Jewish " (or any other ant-irace or religion) literature, and I hope you will not try to make it look as though we do. I for one do not want it hinted at that I or any of my family are anti-Jewish. Jo > > so too you will get inaccurate information about Judaism by reading > anti-Jewish sources or sources that take all religions to be > primitive, ignorant rantings of superstitious people). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2002 Report Share Posted August 27, 2002 B " H [ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2002 Report Share Posted August 27, 2002 Debbie > Actually, I was referring to Karen Armstrong -- she's a former nun > who converted to Islam No she didn't - she is still Christian, just not affiliated to any church. Regardless of her religion, her credentials as a theologist and historian are very well respected - except by those who have a particular religious viewpoint to promote. But, she isn't the only author I have cited. > Just because someone writes a book that says something doesn't mean > it's true. Except, apparently, the Bible? BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release 02/08/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2002 Report Share Posted August 27, 2002 Debbie > I find your opposition to my perspective not only tiresome, > but insulting and bordering on the anti-religious. I am merely presenting historical views, backed up by historical arguments. It seems to me that you are proselytising your religion, and then attacking anyone who disagrees with your religious view points. I am beginning to find some of your comments (accusing me of being anti-religious) to be bordering on libellous, and I expect an immediate apology. > You dismiss my beliefs as superstitious nonsense. Where do you get that from - I have made no comment about your beliefs, just about stuff that happened 2,500 years ago. You could only find that an attack on your beliefs if your beliefs rely on a dubious historical model. If they are - what does that say for your beliefs? > It is > quite difficult to have an honest and open discussion with someone > who treats your beliefs and learning and opinions as though they are > childish ignorance. Ah - well, at least you admit that you are difficult to have intelligent conversations with. > You only have directed your comments at twisted > interpretations of minor points I have made. You seem totally > unwilling to discuss or accept that there might be another > perspective. You haven't presented one - you have just attacked everything I have said. > You are the one who seems unwilling to > acknowledge any other opinion. If you will present on, with a well argued historical basis, I will be very happy to acknowledge it - to date you have done nothing but attack. > All I ask is that my beliefs be respected. I don't ask anyone to > adopt them. Yet, you keep on going on about them as though you expect others to have the same beliefs. In fact, it is rare for you to post anything which does not mention your religion. > We Jews have been subject to persecution for thousands of years. I sincerely hope that you are not trying to accuse me of anti-Semitism. I find the implication to be highly insulting, and completely unacceptable. Cathy was definitely right - we daren't state opposing views, otherwise we get attacked - now, even going so far as to accusing me of being racist! Debbie - I am now calling an end to this discussion, as it is clear that you are not willing to conduct it on a mature level, and have taken to petty name calling, which is against the one list rule. This will be the last post on the subject. Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release 02/08/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2002 Report Share Posted August 27, 2002 and if its not..can you please publish a play by play..cuz, i'm horridly lost can we all play nice now? you can yell at me if you like..i can take it ok..i'll cry like a baby warthog missin its mommy..but..still... go ahead *braces to take all the abuse* *closes eyes* *peeks* fraggle > >Debbie - I am now calling an end to this discussion, as it is clear that you >are not willing to conduct it on a mature level, and have taken to petty >name calling, which is against the one list rule. This will be the last post >on the subject. > >Peter > > > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release 02/08/02 > > > >To send an email to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2002 Report Share Posted August 28, 2002 , " quercusrobur2002 " <grahamburnett@b...> wrote: > Pretend you have never heard of,or have read the Bible before in > your > > life and just stumbled across it somewhere and just opened the > first > > page and read the verses,what would you make of the writers'intent? > > > > What is the verse? Can you quote it please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2002 Report Share Posted August 28, 2002 , " Peter " <Snowbow@b...> wrote: > Debbie > > > I find your opposition to my perspective not only tiresome, > > but insulting and bordering on the anti-religious. > > I am merely presenting historical views, backed up by historical arguments. Peter, I note that you ignore any of my questions which appear inconvenient. For example, your continued use of the name of the Holy One, (which can be considered offensive to many). I asked repeatedly where you get the name that includes vowels, when the Torah contains no vowels. I provided examples of many religions that did in fact use the names of their various dieties. You continued to use that name of Holy One with vowels. Who gave you the vowels? Also, you called Moses an Egyptian " magician " . I asked on what basis you declared that description. That question was also ignored. Please note that Moses was probably the single most important historical figure in Jewish history, a man who historically existed, and forsaked royalty and wealth to stand up for his people. Even ignoring any religious flavor, calling him an Egyption Magician really is worthy of an explaination. Those statements have a certain flavor which would upset a Traditional Jew such as Debbie. Had someone said similar statements about Jesus, other people would have found that offensive. Perhaps this will help you understand her feelings, and why any Jew would find what you wrote offensive. I happen a very liberal Jew, but even I found what you've written offensive, and could be considered mockery or even racist. I'm not saying you intended it as such, but the mockery and insults are clear. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2002 Report Share Posted August 28, 2002 Bob I know nothing about Judaism (excuse me if that is the wrong name for the religion) but I do know that, as a Pagan, giving the description of magician to someone is certainly no insult, and should therefore not be taken as one. I hope this clarifies that part of the situation. BB Jo > Even ignoring any religious flavor, calling him an > Egyption Magician really is worthy of an explaination. > > Those statements have a certain flavor which would upset a > Traditional Jew such as Debbie. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release 02/08/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 28, 2002 Report Share Posted August 28, 2002 - quercusrobur2002 Tuesday, August 27, 2002 8:07 PM Re: Bibical beginning Pretend you have never heard of,or have read the Bible before in your > life and just stumbled across it somewhere and just opened the first > page and read the verses,what would you make of the writers'intent?> What is the verse? Can you quote it please? I have tried to post the quotes, but the computer only seems to send the above, you will have to read from a bible or some one else might post the quotes from Genesis;1-27 until Gen;chapter;2. To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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