Guest guest Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 Good health depends on hormonal balance, and we can't determine our hormonal balance without proper testing. Soy's Thyroid Dangers http://thyroid.about.com/cs/soyinfo/a/soy.htm Soy and Hypothyroidism As described in The Menopause Diet, more than 30 mg of isoflavones can send your thyroid into shutdown by blocking thyroid peroxidase enzymes and stimulating anti-thyroid antibodies. Over-the counter " natural estrogens " such as Promensil, also have very high doses of isoflavones derived from red clover instead of soy, but the effect is the same. Soy is an anti-estrogen, affecting sex drive, thyroid function and even tumor cell growth. http://goddessdiet.com/Reports/thyroid.htm INSIDE THE SOY REPORT: http://goddessdiet.com/Reports/soy.htm Leading Expert Warns of Soy-Thyroid Connection in Bestselling Book In the bestselling book Living Well With Hypothyroidism: What Your Doctor Doesn't Tell You . . . That You Need to Know, leading soy expert Dr. Mike Fitzpatrick was profiled. http://health.centreforce.com/health/soy_dangers.html The Trouble With Tofu: Soy and the Brain http://www.mercola.com/2000/sep/17/soy_brain.htm Soy May Cause Cancer and Brain Damage http://www.mercola.com/2000/aug/20/soy_dangers.htm Learn The Truth About The Historical Use Of Soy Just How Much Soy Did Asians Eat? http://www.mercola.com/2000/jan/9/truth_about_soy.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 Evidence about the harmful qualities of soy is not a popular subjecton this list. People don't like to be told that what they like to eat is unhealthy- we see it all the time with Atkins-lovers. I have been vegetarian a long time, and eventually I went vegan. My diet was for many years extremely dependent on soy, even when I wasn't vegan. I now know that that soy was making me sick. it is a powerful endocrine disruptor. Since I stopped eating soy, I have seen a big change in my body, and my lab tests (I am disabled and have regular labs) also show a change. For several months I stopped eating soy. Now I eat it only occasionally. I think soy can be part of a healthy diet, but a soy-dependent diet is not healthy. --- Kem Sha-tres <kemsha_tres wrote: > Good health depends on hormonal balance, and we > can't determine our hormonal balance without proper > testing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 Hi, Sick in what way? Could you please elaborate? Thanks, Gary At 06:59 PM 10/13/2004, you wrote: >Evidence about the harmful qualities of soy is not a >popular subjecton this list. People don't like to be >told that what they like to eat is unhealthy- we see >it all the time with Atkins-lovers. > >I have been vegetarian a long time, and eventually I >went vegan. My diet was for many years extremely >dependent on soy, even when I wasn't vegan. I now >know that that soy was making me sick. it is a >powerful endocrine disruptor. Since I stopped eating >soy, I have seen a big change in my body, and my lab >tests (I am disabled and have regular labs) also show >a change. > >For several months I stopped eating soy. Now I eat it >only occasionally. I think soy can be part of a >healthy diet, but a soy-dependent diet is not healthy. > >--- Kem Sha-tres <kemsha_tres wrote: > > > Good health depends on hormonal balance, and we > > can't determine our hormonal balance without proper > > testing. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 Soy was disrupting my endocrine system. I also think it's probable that the estrogens in soy were overwhelming my body. Since I stopped eating soy, my endocrine readings are much more normal. Also, my ATP levels have risen. (ATP is the chemical that mitochondria make from calories; it is the " energy chemical " in cells. Mitochondria convert calories into ATP, and the cell uses ATP to yield energy. Because of the nature of my illness, my ATP levels are checked frequently.) My ATP levels have risen, and I have a reduced appetite; these together are evidence that my body is now utilizing calories more efficiently. Oh, and I don't have cravings for sweets anymore. I can also honestly say that within the first two months of dropping soy, I FELT so much better! I felt more energized, and just less ILL in general. Sometimes you don't know how something is affecting you until you stop. I had been eating so much soy, for so long, that I didn't realize that it was making me feel bad until I stopped eating it. The shape of my body has visibly changed since I gave up soy. (Get ready for TMI.) The first thing that happened was that my breasts got smaller, and the shape of them changed. They look like different breasts! I lost inches off of my waist, hips, and thighs, and I have less cellulite. Cellulite, btw, is directly linked to estrogen in the body. So that is my tale of How Soy Changed My Life. - Priscilla --- Gary Mattingly <gsmattingly wrote: > Hi, > > Sick in what way? Could you please elaborate? > > Thanks, > > Gary > > _______________________________ Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 rep, that's still a pretty broad generalization. even if it does affect you, people react to foods differently, some can ingest it in huge amounts (i might qualify, but most people's consumption is moderate anyway) and be totally unaffected, and as you recall from our prior discussion, the science on this one is anything but conclusive. (not to mention the fact of course most non-vegans expose themselves to as much hormone risk if not more.) so i contend your case is not true of the vast majority of people who remain unaffected. there's more to the picture. , reptile grrl <reptilegoddess> wrote: > Evidence about the harmful qualities of soy is not a > popular subjecton this list. People don't like to be > told that what they like to eat is unhealthy- we see > it all the time with Atkins-lovers. > > I have been vegetarian a long time, and eventually I > went vegan. My diet was for many years extremely > dependent on soy, even when I wasn't vegan. I now > know that that soy was making me sick. it is a > powerful endocrine disruptor. Since I stopped eating > soy, I have seen a big change in my body, and my lab > tests (I am disabled and have regular labs) also show > a change. > > For several months I stopped eating soy. Now I eat it > only occasionally. I think soy can be part of a > healthy diet, but a soy-dependent diet is not healthy. > > --- Kem Sha-tres <kemsha_tres> wrote: > > > Good health depends on hormonal balance, and we > > can't determine our hormonal balance without proper > > testing. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 --- radcsusa <radcsusa wrote: > as > you recall from our > prior discussion, the science on this one is > anything but conclusive. No, what I recall from our prior discussion is that you choose not to accept the science that says that soy can be unhealthy- just as many meat-eaters refuse to accept the science that says the same thing about meat. That's your choice, and it's your body. You can do what you want with it. However, the fact that you find it necessary to be insulting (as in the past) and to misrepresent what I have said (see below) doesn't make your " cause " look very good. > so i contend > your case is not > true of the vast majority of people who remain > unaffected. My last email was me giving my particular experience, *as requested.* Please do not imply that I ever claimed it was the experience of everyone. As before, you misrepresent me instead of responding only to my words. The vast majority of people are not unaffected- they just don't know that they are affected. Many medical scientists are now realizing that the preponderance of soy in almost every processed food is actually changing the way the that humans in the West mature, are sexualized, and live. - Priscilla _______________________________ Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2004 Report Share Posted October 14, 2004 Very curious...would this be classified as a food intolorance, much like people with wheat intolorance or like me with animal product intolorances? I ask cause I know that for me Soy is the healthiest thing I can have. I feel 100x's better if I eat it with at least 2 meals per day. When I don't I get lathargic, tired, and tend to get sick, which is the opposite as you. I find that very interesting because I have never personally had the opportunity to talk with someone who has such an intolorance or whatnot. I am very glad you found out that soy was unhealthy for you. I know that I got a huge sigh of releif when I found my problems. Did a doctor suggest you remove it from you diet (or nutritionist/healer type as well) or did how did you come to that conclusion? " Food allergies " stink. ~Mel --- reptile grrl <reptilegoddess wrote: > > --- radcsusa <radcsusa wrote: > > > as > > you recall from our > > prior discussion, the science on this one is > > anything but conclusive. > > No, what I recall from our prior discussion is that > you choose not to accept the science that says that > soy can be unhealthy- just as many meat-eaters > refuse > to accept the science that says the same thing about > meat. That's your choice, and it's your body. You > can do what you want with it. However, the fact > that > you find it necessary to be insulting (as in the > past) > and to misrepresent what I have said (see below) > doesn't make your " cause " look very good. > > > so i contend > > your case is not > > true of the vast majority of people who remain > > unaffected. > > My last email was me giving my particular > experience, > *as requested.* Please do not imply that I ever > claimed it was the experience of everyone. As > before, > you misrepresent me instead of responding only to my > words. > > The vast majority of people are not unaffected- they > just don't know that they are affected. Many > medical > scientists are now realizing that the preponderance > of > soy in almost every processed food is actually > changing the way the that humans in the West mature, > are sexualized, and live. > > - Priscilla > > > > > _______________________________ > > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! > http://vote. > _______________________________ Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2004 Report Share Posted October 14, 2004 Wow, that's amazing, Priscilla--I didn't know soy could affect a person so much. I have read various studies about soy, many saying it's the best thing to eat on the planet, and others reporting that it's dangerous. Another one of those cases of " What do I believe? " I have eaten tofu but that's about it. Anyway, I'm glad you discovered the cause of your health problems and are feeling better. ~Cindy , reptile grrl <reptilegoddess> wrote: > Soy was disrupting my endocrine system. I also think > it's probable that the estrogens in soy were > overwhelming my body. > > Since I stopped eating soy, my endocrine readings are > much more normal. Also, my ATP levels have risen. > (ATP is the chemical that mitochondria make from > calories; it is the " energy chemical " in cells. > Mitochondria convert calories into ATP, and the cell > uses ATP to yield energy. Because of the nature of my > illness, my ATP levels are checked frequently.) My > ATP levels have risen, and I have a reduced appetite; > these together are evidence that my body is now > utilizing calories more efficiently. Oh, and I don't > have cravings for sweets anymore. > > I can also honestly say that within the first two > months of dropping soy, I FELT so much better! I felt > more energized, and just less ILL in general. > Sometimes you don't know how something is affecting > you until you stop. I had been eating so much soy, > for so long, that I didn't realize that it was making > me feel bad until I stopped eating it. > > The shape of my body has visibly changed since I gave > up soy. (Get ready for TMI.) The first thing that > happened was that my breasts got smaller, and the > shape of them changed. They look like different > breasts! I lost inches off of my waist, hips, and > thighs, and I have less cellulite. Cellulite, btw, is > directly linked to estrogen in the body. > > So that is my tale of How Soy Changed My Life. > > - Priscilla > > > --- Gary Mattingly <gsmattingly@c...> wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > Sick in what way? Could you please elaborate? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > _______________________________ > > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! > http://vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2004 Report Share Posted October 15, 2004 my, aren't we defensive, and imho unnecessarily. you made pretty broad statements implying no one but you here was really capable of reasoning objectively on this subject, and the implication that your experience validated the broader antisoy hypothesis was i think easy to find there; in fact you restate it in your very objection. your recollection of the prior discussion is also entirely incorrect. i simply produced a link in reply that examined most of the claims of the soy-bashers pretty much point by point and quite skillfully. it rejected most or many and suggested on a lot or the rest of them the jury was still out. perhaps it's not that i'm dogmatically pro-soy as that you might have a mild or not so mild anti-soy agenda. free country, others will have to simply decide for themselves. as for your claims regarding hormonal influence, i repeat that people respond individually, and i'm far more inclined to suspect the hormone-saturated dairy consumption instead. so i quite reject your " insulting " misrepresentation, it seems to rest on equally flawed recollectings. not that you seem likely to retract. if you go into the world spoiling for and anticipating fights, you'll find them where they would otherwise not normally happen. this is the internet: thick skin highly recommended. , reptile grrl <reptilegoddess> wrote: > > --- radcsusa <radcsusa@n...> wrote: > > > as > > you recall from our > > prior discussion, the science on this one is > > anything but conclusive. > > No, what I recall from our prior discussion is that > you choose not to accept the science that says that > soy can be unhealthy- just as many meat-eaters refuse > to accept the science that says the same thing about > meat. That's your choice, and it's your body. You > can do what you want with it. However, the fact that > you find it necessary to be insulting (as in the past) > and to misrepresent what I have said (see below) > doesn't make your " cause " look very good. > > > so i contend > > your case is not > > true of the vast majority of people who remain > > unaffected. > > My last email was me giving my particular experience, > *as requested.* Please do not imply that I ever > claimed it was the experience of everyone. As before, > you misrepresent me instead of responding only to my > words. > > The vast majority of people are not unaffected- they > just don't know that they are affected. Many medical > scientists are now realizing that the preponderance of > soy in almost every processed food is actually > changing the way the that humans in the West mature, > are sexualized, and live. > > - Priscilla > > > > > _______________________________ > > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! > http://vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 --- radcsusa <radcsusa wrote: > my, aren't we defensive, and imho unnecessarily. You go out of your way to attack *my* posts, rather than respond to anyone else's posts on the subject- such as the one that spawned this discussion. > > you made pretty broad statements implying no one but > you here was > really capable of reasoning objectively on this > subject, No, I didn't. I did say that any intimation that soy is unhealthy is not very well-received here, and the archives certainly back me up on that. > your recollection of the prior discussion is also > entirely incorrect. It is freely available in the archives. > perhaps it's not that i'm > dogmatically > pro-soy as that you might have a mild or not so mild > anti-soy agenda. Do you realize how paranoid that sounds? > free country, others will have to simply decide for > themselves. As I have reiterated. > i'm far more inclined to > suspect the > hormone-saturated dairy consumption instead. To what " hormone-saturated dairy consumption " do you refer? I did not eat dairy for several years- instead I used soy products. I did not return to dairy until I gave up soy. Since I brought dairy back into my diet, my health has improved immensely. And btw, I use organic milk from cows not treated with BGH. > so i quite reject your " insulting " > misrepresentation, it seems to rest > on equally flawed recollectings. Since the posts in question are still in the archives, it's quite obvious, to whomever you are trying to convince, that youe behavior was as I characterize it. Your current behavior further supports that characterization. > if you go into the world spoiling for and > anticipating fights, you'll > find them where they would otherwise not normally > happen. this is the > internet: thick skin highly recommended. And you give yet another example of your insulting, condescending manner. Read only the mail you want - Mail SpamGuard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 People, please let it go! I am in another group where a discussion about politics got out of hand, and now one member left the group. (And she was a great gal.) I totally respect the right to express your opinions. To some, soy is good, to some, soy is bad. And that's that. Let's be a group that can handle disagreements and move on. Sorry if I sound overly sensitive, but my other group's dissension went way too far, and I'd hate to see that happen here. Peace! Aimee , reptile grrl <reptilegoddess> wrote: > > --- radcsusa <radcsusa@n...> wrote: > > > my, aren't we defensive, and imho unnecessarily. > > You go out of your way to attack *my* posts, rather > than respond to anyone else's posts on the subject- > such as the one that spawned this discussion. > > > > > > you made pretty broad statements implying no one but > > you here was > > really capable of reasoning objectively on this > > subject, > > No, I didn't. I did say that any intimation that soy > is unhealthy is not very well-received here, and the > archives certainly back me up on that. > > > your recollection of the prior discussion is also > > entirely incorrect. > > It is freely available in the archives. > > > > perhaps it's not that i'm > > dogmatically > > pro-soy as that you might have a mild or not so mild > > anti-soy agenda. > > Do you realize how paranoid that sounds? > > > free country, others will have to simply decide for > > themselves. > > As I have reiterated. > > > i'm far more inclined to > > suspect the > > hormone-saturated dairy consumption instead. > > To what " hormone-saturated dairy consumption " do you > refer? I did not eat dairy for several years- instead > I used soy products. I did not return to dairy until > I gave up soy. Since I brought dairy back into my > diet, my health has improved immensely. And btw, I > use organic milk from cows not treated with BGH. > > > so i quite reject your " insulting " > > misrepresentation, it seems to rest > > on equally flawed recollectings. > > Since the posts in question are still in the archives, > it's quite obvious, to whomever you are trying to > convince, that youe behavior was as I characterize it. > Your current behavior further supports that > characterization. > > > if you go into the world spoiling for and > > anticipating fights, you'll > > find them where they would otherwise not normally > > happen. this is the > > internet: thick skin highly recommended. > > And you give yet another example of your insulting, > condescending manner. > > Read only the mail you want - Mail SpamGuard. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 Well said, Aimee. i think this discussion has crossed the line from an informative sharing of information over to a clash of personalities. i want to thank Priscilla & rad for the information they have shared on this interesting topic in the past posts. However, unless either of you has more information to share, such as links to reports or articles, then maybe it is time to table it. Thank you. ~ pt ~ Conquer your foe by force, you increase his enmity; conquer by love, and you will reap no after-sorrow. - Fo-Sho-Hing-Tsan-King ~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~> , " Aimee " <aimeeleigh79> wrote: > > People, please let it go! I am in another group where a discussion > about politics got out of hand, and now one member left the group. > (And she was a great gal.) I totally respect the right to express > your opinions. To some, soy is good, to some, soy is bad. And that's > that. Let's be a group that can handle disagreements and move on. > Sorry if I sound overly sensitive, but my other group's dissension > went way too far, and I'd hate to see that happen here. Peace! > Aimee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 Greetings All, It is my opinion that the author of this soy post has all our best interests at heart. That said, I believe that we should consider that should we reply. - Nope, I don't have a cellphone. They give me headaches. I can however be reached 24/7 via my wrist pager. (877)229-5224. It also receives e-mail (100 characters max) its address is tiny --- On Wed 10/13, Kem Sha-tres < kemsha_tres > wrote: Kem Sha-tres [ kemsha_tres] Wed, 13 Oct 2004 16:25:53 -0700 (PDT) The Thyroid dangers of Soy <html><body> <tt> Good health depends on hormonal balance, and we can't determine our hormonal balance without proper testing. <BR> <BR> Soy's Thyroid Dangers <BR> <a href= " http://thyroid.about.com/cs/soyinfo/a/soy.htm " >http://thyroid.about.com/cs\ /soyinfo/a/soy.htm</a> <BR> <BR> Soy and Hypothyroidism <BR> As described in The Menopause Diet, more than 30 mg of isoflavones can send your <BR> thyroid into shutdown by blocking thyroid peroxidase enzymes and stimulating <BR> anti-thyroid antibodies. Over-the counter " natural estrogens " such as Promensil, <BR> also have very high doses of isoflavones derived from red clover instead of soy, <BR> but the effect is the same. Soy is an anti-estrogen, affecting sex drive, thyroid <BR> function and even tumor cell growth. <BR> <a href= " http://goddessdiet.com/Reports/thyroid.htm " >http://goddessdiet.com/Reports\ /thyroid.htm</a> <BR> <BR> INSIDE THE SOY REPORT: <BR> <a href= " http://goddessdiet.com/Reports/soy.htm " >http://goddessdiet.com/Reports/soy\ ..htm</a> <BR> <BR> Leading Expert Warns of Soy-Thyroid Connection in Bestselling Book <BR> In the bestselling book Living Well With Hypothyroidism: What Your Doctor Doesn't <BR> Tell You . . . That You Need to Know, leading soy expert Dr. Mike Fitzpatrick was profiled. <BR> <a href= " http://health.centreforce.com/health/soy_dangers.html " >http://health.centr\ eforce.com/health/soy_dangers.html</a> <BR> <BR> The Trouble With Tofu: Soy and the Brain <BR> <a href= " http://www.mercola.com/2000/sep/17/soy_brain.htm " >http://www.mercola.com/2\ 000/sep/17/soy_brain.htm</a> <BR> <BR> Soy May Cause Cancer and Brain Damage <BR> <a href= " http://www.mercola.com/2000/aug/20/soy_dangers.htm " >http://www.mercola.com\ /2000/aug/20/soy_dangers.htm</a> <BR> <BR> Learn The Truth About The Historical Use Of Soy <BR> Just How Much Soy Did Asians Eat? <BR> <a href= " http://www.mercola.com/2000/jan/9/truth_about_soy.htm " >http://www.mercola.\ com/2000/jan/9/truth_about_soy.htm</a> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> Tired of spam? Mail has the best spam protection around <BR> <a href= " " ></a> <BR> <BR> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 Didn't the mod say " Drop it? " --- Bill Beckwith <tinygnome wrote: > > > Greetings All, > > It is my opinion that the author of this soy post > has all our best interests at heart. That said, I > believe that we should consider that should we > reply. > > - _______________________________ Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 rep, for crying out loud, go back to recipes and give it a rest. , reptile grrl <reptilegoddess> wrote: > --- radcsusa <radcsusa@n...> wrote: > > my, aren't we defensive, and imho unnecessarily. > > You go out of your way to attack *my* posts, rather > than respond to anyone else's posts on the subject- > such as the one that spawned this discussion. i answered your post because yours was the one with the pretty unmistakeable anti-soy agenda which, as the link i supplied before, was not truly based in science and which, as someone here has noted, seems to have a lot more with the beef slaughter industry's agenda. > > > > you made pretty broad statements implying no one but > > you here was > > really capable of reasoning objectively on this > > subject, > > No, I didn't. I did say that any intimation that soy > is unhealthy is not very well-received here, and the > archives certainly back me up on that. undoubtedly, -- but i also submit that those who've read the tone of your prior posts will have no difficulty finding your dismissal of other data on this, -- like your characterization of the link i gave. > > > your recollection of the prior discussion is also > > entirely incorrect. > > It is freely available in the archives. indeed. i'd bet not one single person here will even bother looking, but i recall it well, as i'm the one who posted the link. > > > perhaps it's not that i'm > > dogmatically > > pro-soy as that you might have a mild or not so mild > > anti-soy agenda. > > Do you realize how paranoid that sounds? anyone who reads this will probably far less " paranoia " in that polite request for you to consider a different perspective than in your very response there. i fear we'll be forced to disagree again. > > > i'm far more inclined to > > suspect the > > hormone-saturated dairy consumption instead. > > To what " hormone-saturated dairy consumption " do you > refer? I did not eat dairy for several years- instead > I used soy products. I did not return to dairy until > I gave up soy. Since I brought dairy back into my > diet, my health has improved immensely. And btw, I > use organic milk from cows not treated with BGH. one almost could have predicted you'd do this. i did NOT refer to you specifically, i referred to your broad, sweeping, and probably ie generalization that soy was the evil culprit behind every health and social ill around. you should notice, however, that it seems not to be the minority veg/vegans who are the problem. unless you somehow believe george bush is the vegan and dennis kucinich the carnivorous hormone-crazed warlord instead of the reverse. kindly pay closer attention to what i actually say instead of what you imagine me to be saying. > > > so i quite reject your " insulting " > > misrepresentation, it seems to rest > > on equally flawed recollectings. > > Since the posts in question are still in the archives, > it's quite obvious, to whomever you are trying to > convince, that youe behavior was as I characterize it. > Your current behavior further supports that > characterization. i think i'm again quite happy to let people judge who sticks with the facts themselves and who has the axe to grind. > > > if you go into the world spoiling for and > > anticipating fights, you'll > > find them where they would otherwise not normally > > happen. this is the > > internet: thick skin highly recommended. > > And you give yet another example of your insulting, > condescending manner. the difficulty is that you regard ANY insinuation you are incorrect as " insult " and " condescension " , which is, i regret to say, an observably human trait. we are all, therefore under the moral imperative to cease treating others who speak to our shortcomings, however politely, as insulting condescending " attackers " . someone else here suggested we ascribe you with good motives. i've never questioned that, i've tried to stick to the facts from square one. you have, i suggest with your many " condescension " and " paranoia " cracks along the way as above, entirely failed to extend me the same courtesy or benefit of doubt. perhaps we can agree one should aim higher in future. > > > Read only the mail you want - Mail SpamGuard. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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