Guest guest Posted August 14, 2006 Report Share Posted August 14, 2006 Dear Friends, As far as I have been trying to follow along the recent dialogue was about: 1. rabies in India 2. funding for dog ABC in India for NGO's, which varies as to from local/foreign-- private/foundation, municipality or AWBI (and how ABC dog funding because of rabies and public complaints is different than other AWO funding?) 3. killing of street dogs (by municipalities?) - where this goes on in and what methods are used India i.e. the deaths in China were particularly shocking because many were pet dogs and cruelly beaten but what is the case in India away from the NGO's reach. I agree with Dr. Naveen and that the question about rounding up thousands of dogs was never answered in the original article posted, but then again it might have been literary hyperbole, meaning taking in many dogs over a period of time? , did you write that article you posted to AAPN *For a rabies free India, Chennai shows the way* that is very positive indeed. So perhaps this discussion needs to move to an all India format since it is getting specialized and AAPN is for all of Asia. Anyway I was curious about all this and it is telling that as much as I try to keep up about helping animals in India I am missing some basic understanding. So aside from AAPN it should be AWBI that could answer all this or is there some other format? Thank you Dr. Chinny and others who gave many useful facts. Nilesh, that sounds great what is going on in Mumbai and undoubtedly because of good coordination between all. Thanks Padma for once again " telling it like it is " in your frustrations and wish you best of luck in a tough situation. kind regards, -- In aapn , nilesh wrote: > > Dear All, > > I would like to mention some report on our area. > > Bascially our Thane Dist. consisting Thane Municipal Corp., New Bombay > Municipal Corp., Kalyan-Dombivli Municipal Corp., Ulhasnagar Municipal. > corp., Mira-Bhyndar Municipal Corp., Vasai-Virar Municipal Corp., > Bhiwandi-Nijaampur Municipal Crop. & Ambernath Municipal Council, Badlapur > Municipal Councils. > > Where in all municpial corp. are doing sterlisation except Bhiwandi > Municipal corp. with all funds given by municipal Crops. We all NGO's > representative are there to watch on the committes setup by us as per > Animal Birth Control Rules 2001 (When Ms. Maneka Gandhi was minister she drafted it) > > In that IDA India taken up New Bombay sterlisations, Thane Municipal Corp. > doing Laparoscopy very fast method 3rd day dog is released & they are > operating 40 dogs every day & got a name in Limca Book of Records. > > Not a single NGO is spending their own money on ABC. The programs are > going well! We at Thane Dist. is neighbouring dist. of Mumbai. > > It took 3 yrs. us to convince them but now everybody is doing well. > > Regards, > Nilesh > PAWS > > .................................... > > Re: RE: Rabies *Dear Dr Krishna,* * Thank you for the excellent points made. I entirely agree with you that the claimed WHO figures are questionable. In my report on Rabies entitled 'BITE OF DEATH' published in the Telegraph on 24th July, 2006, I quoted the 30,000 figure after talking to WHO officials in Delhi who referred me to their website. I did, and came out with this figure. However, I stated in my article that this figure is not exact since rabies is not a notifiable disease. I subsequently found out several other 'WHO figures' ranging from 20,500 to 25,000. This is quite confusing. I also got contradictory responses when I attempted to verify this 30,000 figure. The Director Of Health Services in West Bengal said the figure was right whereas several veterinarians, animal welfare wokers and the director of the Pasteur Institute in Kolkata(that administers rabies vaccines) expressed doubt. I asked the founder secretary of the Association for Prevention and Control of Rabies in India how he could claim 30,000 annual deaths when rabies was not a notifiable disease and he replied it was an estimate. Now such an estimate may well be true but if there is a floating factor of 10,000 or more then genuine doubts can be expressed on how accurate the 30,000 figure is. I quoted the figure since it seemed the most authentic one at hand and it was on the WHO website(** http://www.who.int/vaccines/en/rabies.shtml* <http://www.who.int/vaccines/en/rabies.shtml*> <http://www.who.int/vaccines/en/rabi\ es.shtml <http://www.who.int/vaccines/en/rabies.shtml> > *). I was unaware of the Sudarshan Rahman study when I wrote the article and would thank you for posting it. The director of Pasteur Institute mentioned that the 30,000 figure was used to drum up hysteria about the disease in India. In hindsight, he was probably right.* * I could not ascertain if the number of rabies deaths have gone down in Kolkata after the ABC programme due to lack of time but I was told by the director of the Pasteur Institute that the ID(Infectious Diseases) hospital in Kolkata that deals with rabies victims has seen a steady drop in rabies cases. If somebody can share statistics of rabies cases in cities after implementation of the ABC programme, I would be most grateful. Chances are that they have done down and if that is the case, is it right to portray a doomsday scenario regarding the disease in India?* * There is also a question on how big a threat rabies is compared to TB, AIDS,Leprosy, Dengue, Malaria and Polio comparing the number of deaths caused by these diseases. The director of Pasteur Institute in Kolkata claimed that since there is no man to man transmission of rabies, the disease does not stand scrutiny along the lines of TB, AIDS, Malaria etc. He also denied that WHO has recommended rabies to be made a notifiable disease in India.* * As for the Reuters report claim that " Health workers have launched a new drive to round up thousands of stray dogs in West Bengal to counter rabies " , I reiterate that it is misleading and fictitious.* * Thank you very much for sharing your facts and opinions. I wrote the article with the intention of making people aware of the scale of the problem. However, after this discussion, if I were to write an article on the topic again, I would possibly do it very differently with much more scepticism on the veracity of 'official WHO figures' and claims of Rabies to be made a 'notifiable disease'.* * Best wishes and kind regards,* ** * Sincerely,* * * > > > > > With the number of e-mails being exchanged, I felt I should make a few > > points: > > > > 1. Some reports spoke of 30,000 rabies deaths in India per year, stating > > these as WHO figures. > > A figure of 20,500 is mentioned in the newspaper report by Reuters, > > once > > again quoting " official WHO > > figures " . > > > > 2. The results of the WHO sponsored National Multi-Centric Rabies Survey > > conducted by Dr. M. K. > > Sudharshan (Chief Investigator) and his team which includes Dr. S. > > Abdul > > Rahman (Co-Investigator) > > were released in draft form at the June 2003 Association for > > Prevention > > and Control of Rabies In India > > Meeting at Bhubaneshwar - then finalised and published in May 2004. > > This > > study covers the period > > 1992-2002 and, in my opinion, is very scientifically done. According > > to > > this report, and I quote, " The > > " annual incidence of rabies in India is 17,137 (14,109 to 20,165 with > > 95% confidence). An addition of > > 20% to include paralytic/atypical form of rabies provides an > > estimation > > of 20,565 " (end quote). > > > > 3. The same draft report released at Bhubaneshwar in June 2003 mentioned > > that during the period of the > > study from 1992-2002, the incidence of rabies on an all-India basis > > remained at almost the same level of > > about 17,000 cases per year. > > > > 4. In reply to Ms. Weintraub's questions and fears, let me mention that, > > while the situation over the whole of > > India has been static with regard to rabies deaths during the period > > 1992-2002, in those few places > > where an ABC-AR programme had been in place for even just a few years, > > there were dramatic > > reductions in rabies cases in every city/town. Certainly not a > > coincidence? > > > > 5. The fact mentioned by Pradeep and Debasis that the money for this > > programme should not be left to the > > NGO's to raise - it is the duty of the Government and the local > > municipality to do it since health spending > > is their responsibility. Pradeep moans the fact that except for the > > brief period of Mrs. Maneka Gandhi's > > tenure as Minister, funds are not available and are delayed. This is > > true, but Mrs. gandhi kept exhorting > > all concerned that they should not depend on the AWBI and funds must > > come from local bodies as > > required under the Dog Rules. > > > > 6. Finally, it is high time the Municipalities got down to fully implement > > the Dog Rules. Dog breeders must > > be registered and pay a suitable registration fee to do this. > > Responsible > > pet ownership will only come > > about when people realise that rules must be obeyed. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > S. Chinny Krishna > > > > > > Pradeep Nath [vspcadeep] > > Saturday, August 12, 2006 8:53 AM > > debasischak; Weintraub > > Cc: aapn ; Dr.S.Chinny Krishna; naveen_vet > > Re: Rabies > > > > > > Dear Debashis, > > > > Yes it is wonderful with the Govt. chipping in and it is actually they > > who > > should be assisting in the best way possible. But I am skeptical in > > giving > > the full responsibilities to them and have the NGOs involved in the whole > > episode of observing the Dog Rules. > > > > The Govt. of AP is also showing great interest in the impelementation of > > this scheme throughout the State and we had a high level meeting but that > > is > > almost two years now. In between they tried to issue a State GO to kill > > dogs throughout the State and also tried using people to kill dogs in the > > night and these all were thwarted by us through every mode possible. ANd > > this shows the sincerety of the Govt is badly missing. > > > > At no point of time has the ABC given a wholehearted chance to be > > implemented through one reason or the other and to show really that it > > works. It is of no great reason to prove in one place in the State trying > > hard whereas the remaining 99% has nothing to be done and therefore the > > sly > > killings etc., is on. We have now the pressure and the support to do ABC > > even as far as four Districts which maybe more than 5000 villages five > > major > > Municipal Corporations. We have the capability and the endurance to do it > > but not adequate rescource to run through and we have influenced in these > > areas to stop . But are of the opinion that AWOs present are not upto the > > issue. > > > > Even as far as Sullurpeta about 700 kms we have stopped it there and > > pursue to to do the ABC camp. > > > > So it does works where the NGOs are strong enough to do it and through > > Corporates also but over all otherwise the dogs am afraid are killed in > > India and that counts easily 90%. > > > > But these killings have not helped reduce the incidences of rabies > > therefore ABC must be followed and I REITERATE A ONE YEAR CAMP LIKE THE > > PULSE POLIO TARGET MUST BE ADOPTED FIRST WITH VACCINATION AND THE > > OPERATIONS. And for this we need to act fast. Who will help? > > > > Pradeep. > > > > debasischak wrote: > > Dear , > > In india the basic problem is overpopulation (inluding infiltration > > from > > neighbouring countries). So any disease, like > > TB,AIDS,LEPROSY,DENGUE,MALARIA,POLIO becomes endemic unless given > > widspread > > attention not only for curative aspect but a sustained preventive measure. > > In case of RABIES, it is not yet made a NOTIFIABLE disease and hence the > > thrust and focus is not there at the Govt. level. It is virtually treated > > as > > a liability of Animal Lovers (NGO or Just groups of compassionate > > citizens) > > to save and protect the animals. Even AWBI is not given enough direction > > and > > support by the Govt.(except for a short stint when Mrs.Maneka Gandhi was > > the > > minister). Some groups/NGOs do get some foreign fundng but that too is > > mostly urban oriented. My effort through my communication to the Chief > > Minister was to bring rural areas into Govt. focus and the reutrs report > > indicates that Highest level of the health dept.of the Local Govt. has > > decided to take ABC seriously. > > Regards, Debasis > > ps.In the area of operation of my organizations (People for Animals > > Calcutta & Compassionate Crusaders Trust) there is not a single case of > > killing by the authorites as a solution to " STRAY DOG MENACE " as they call > > it. All the dogs inpounded/captured by authorities are handed over to > > us.For > > us FUND is the only problem, because Govt. support is negligible. > > > > - > > Weintraub > > Saturday, August 12, 2006 0:47 am > > Re: Rabies > > > > > Putting this dialogue with all responses in full back to AAPN > > > (please scroll down for Pradeep's two posts which I don't think > > > were sent previously to AAPN). I think regardless of what is > > > happening in each NGO's jurisdiction (i.e. no killing in some very > > > thankfully as Debasis says) there is still killing in other areas > > > in India (particularly rural) and is this being addressed as each > > > NGO is so overburdened themselves? So again from the original > > > article (at below of these posts) if: > > > > > > " India reports at least 20,500 deaths from rabies every year out > > > of 50,000 fatalities globally, WHO data shows. But experts say > > > many deaths go unreported " . > > > > > > That is almost 1/2 of world fatalities! I wonder what were the > > > rabies deaths before the ABC city programs had a big impact. Or > > > are the NGO's losing this race to fix the street dogs in India and > > > are rabies death actually on the increase in other areas? This is > > > a serious situation! If the animal welfare laws are already in > > > place in India then all that is needed is a coordinated push to > > > even more aggressively solve these problems. And India can teach > > > the other Asian nations the humane approach. But since NGO's are > > > so over burdened in India maybe they also need a more coordinated > > > help such as from HSUS, etc. All of these are obvious questions > > > but none of them are simply answered or solved but maybe with all > > > coming together it still can be. > > > > > > p.s. Another problem is what is going to happen to the increasing > > > problem of abandoned pet dogs, this is a new one for India and > > > other developing countries, and will the NGO's have to start > > > euthanizing them as the west does since the adoption > > > infrastructure probably cannot possibly keep up. > > > > > > - > > > > > > Friday, August 11, 2006 4:35 AM > > > Re: Rabies > > > > > > > > > > As I wrote the state Govt is also participating in ABC, even > > > using human > > > > hospitals for surgery , NO KILLING ! > > > > > > aapn , " " > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Debashishda, > > > I think the question was > > > intended to find > > > out the exact meaning of the expression 'round up'. You have not > > > addressed > > > that in your reply and I would agree that the expression is > > > confusing. > > > 'Round up' literally means to seek out and bring together. I > > > recently worked > > > on a story on rabies and found no evidence that health workers > > > were seeking > > > out and bringing together 'thousands of dogs.' Also what does > > > thousands > > > mean? One thousand? Two thousand? Ten thousand? Seeking out and > > > bringing > > > together thousands of dogs sounds an odd proposition, to say the > > > least, > > > principally because such a move would serve very little purpose > > > unless you > > > have the resources to vaccinate them en masse. > > > Regards, > > > > > > - > > > Pradeep Nath > > > Friday, August 11, 2006 12:19 AM > > > Re: Rabies > > > > > > > > > We should never allow the government people alone to do the ABC > > > without NGOs > > > involvement in one way or the other because they can use this to > > > kill all the dogs. > > > > > > Yes dogs throughout India is being killed and only where the > > > strong NGO > > > present is there it does not happen. Rural 100%. That is why I > > > take the > > > chance of natural disasters to visit and enter into their hearts. > > > > > > 60000 dogs in Greater Visakha which includes 30000 of the city > > > where we > > > covered over 25000 dogs now. > > > > > > Just want to help the street dogs. > > > > > > Pradeep. > > > > > > > > > - > > > Weintraub > > > Thursday, August 10, 2006 11:46 PM > > > Re: Rabies > > > > > > > > > Thanks for these comments. Debasis, it is fantastic than part of > > > a human > > > hospital can be used for ABC! And I congratulate you for your > > > efforts but I > > > am still unclear if Indian authorities are outright killing street > > > dogs in > > > India and if so where and how. (At the Kalachakra in AP in > > > January the > > > Dalai Lama remarked that he was saddened that the authorities had > > > killed the > > > street dogs before the ceremony -- how much better is that then > > > what they > > > did in Greece before the Olympics?) > > > > > > so what Dr. Naveen was questioning from the news clipping and > > > still sort of > > > unanswered said: > > > > > > Health workers have launched a new drive to round up thousands of > > > stray dogs > > > in West Bengal to counter rabies, with concern rising because of a > > > shortage > > > of vaccine. > > > > > > So are these dogs being sent to animal shelter for ABC or are they > > > being > > > destroyed? > > > > > > And if India is reporting 1/2 of the global rabies fatalities that > > > is quite > > > a dismal figure indeed? > > > > > > > > > Pradeep it is quite depressing to me to read that 60,000 more > > > street dogs > > > may need help just in Visakhapatnam. And any time the authorities > > > can come > > > crashing down. > > > > > > While dogs with guardians (i.e. " pets " ) are protected in the west, > > > stray or > > > surrended dogs are certainly not and several millions of dogs are > > > gassed > > > annually in the states. Certainly it was amazing and wonderful > > > for me to > > > see ear notched and healthy looking street dogs in the modern > > > Indian cities. > > > I have not seen street dogs in the states since the late 60's! So > > > how much > > > longer will any modern city tolerate any street dogs? > > > > > > I do think this news from China may have recuperations in India, > > > just hope > > > they are on the positive side for the animals i.e. China gets > > > ideas for > > > helping instead of killing dogs and not vica versa -- India losing > > > their > > > patience with the ABC program! > > > > > > As to my understanding the AWBI is somewhat ineffectual, so who > > > will take up > > > this issue before a total crack down to the detriment of our dog > > > friends. > > > IPAN had quite a situation when a somewhat famous personality was > > > bitten. > > > So as everyone can agree it is a race of time to help the street > > dogs. > > > > > > I greatly respect everyone's fantastic work helping dogs all > > > these years. kind regards, > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > Pradeep Nath > > > > Friday, August 11, 2006 7:52 am > > > > Re: Rabies > > > > > > > >> Dear Debashis, > > > >> > > > Presuming the rounded up dogs are being eliminated then. > > > >> > > > It is true the assistance from AWBI is very unpredictable and > > > untimely upsetting all the good works done. There are many issues > > > that needs and can be easily improved at AWBI and I do not know > > > who will listen to these suggestions or think about them at all. > > > But to mention that AWBI has been more regular in ABC grants than > > > before so you can understand how the issues are . > > > >> > > > >> Even here we face the threat everytime and this due to lack of > > > continuity of funds. > > > >> > > > >> I feel that the ABC is a God sent gift for all beings involved > > > >> and to achieve this it must be done in a time frame and vigorous > > > >> and then the results will be shown. Public do not like to wait > > > >> for long term is my uderstanding. ANy breaks gives a severe jolt. > > > >> We need to think from the people who hate the street dogs and > > > >> they are many. The awareness must be made a part of the grant for > > > >> this particular one. > > > >> > > > >> And the local authority or the government is not happy to spend > > > >> any money for the dogs. They are happy to kill the dogs for > > > >> Rs.10/ per dog whatever way possible and also this helps them to > > > >> achieve their first happiness even for a few months before new > > > >> dogs apppear that the problem is solved. The Commissioner has > > > >> done a good job as the public are happy with this short cut > > method. > > > >> > > > >> I face this here all the time and I counter with continuity and > > > >> aggressive method, legal and lobbyings but for how long. Now > > > >> Visakhaptanm is like Hyderabad expanded five times and we are > > > >> alone. The dog population could be approaching more than 60000 > > > >> easily or much more with these expanded places. How are we to > > > >> monitor all these and do the operations. We need a lot of money > > > >> and infrastructure and the local authorities will not help with > > > >> any medicines. It all will mean a failure. AWBI will not be able > > > >> to fund this much. I appreciate the limitations of AWBI and their > > > >> great contributions and from here we need to push further is > > > all I > > > >> say to make things more effective and perspective otherwise > > things > > > >> can go against the scheme very easily. > > > >> > > > >> So the only way out has to be a Government level understanding > > > >> and mandatory which is by the Bill passed or understood. > > > >> Governements and local authorities differ from places to places. > > > >> ANd even if they agree we have to compromise with some of their > > > >> backdoor policies of killing targeted numbers daily etc., > > > >> > > > >> I took the opportunity to inform through aapn that HSUS and > > > >> other big groups can make the best of their money when > > > >> coordinating with Indian Govenement and cooperating to involve > > > >> throughout the country a massive , efficient fast spays with > > > >> massive awareness campaign. It is not just the aid which India > > > >> can invlove but it is the convincements. India could be made the > > > >> launching pad to open the eyes of the other Asian countries and > > > >> after proving this right in statistics other countries could be > > > >> validly pursued. vaccination to stop the killings as they are > > > >> not convinced this will reduce the dog population and this has to > > > >> be a continuous affair. So a more pragmmatic approach is > > > >> necessary. Opportunities must be taken care off. > > > >> > > > >> Maybe we need to discuss this and all decide how to comeup with > > > >> this suggestion of agreed and do it now. We have the best laws > > > >> for the animals and we must justify that. > > > >> > > > >> Warm regards, > > > >> Pradeep. > > > >> > > > >> debasischak wrote: > > > >> For the last ten years only a few NGOs were doing ABC/AR, that > > > >> too in urban areas, now after I approaced the Chief Minster of > > > >> West Bengal to bring this issue under the perview of Health > > > >> Dept.'s preventive health care agenda (all through it has been > > > >> under the Animal Resource/Veterinary Dept. with zero Govt. > > > >> effort). So much so, that in one district hospital a portion of > > > >> the Human hospital is being used for ABC surgery. Let us hope the > > > >> state Govt.s everywhere (not only municipalities ,upto Village > > > >> Panchayat level, as in Pulse Polio), take it up as a Govt. > > > >> program. Even Animal Welfare Board of India is playing a very > > > >> dismal role in giving actual support(logistics/finance) to the > > > >> program.- Debasis > > > >> > > > >> - > > > >> Weintraub > > > >> Friday, August 11, 2006 1:16 am > > > >> Re: Rabies > > > >> > > > >> > Yes, please kindly add my inquiry to the below one as read > > > this post > > > >> > previously and was wondering myself! > > > >> > thanks, Weintraub, Seattle, WA USA > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > Hi, I'm unable to understand what " round up thousands of stray > > > >> > dogs " ( by the health workers) stands for in the first > > paragraph > > > >> > of the mentioned news. What are the plans after rounding up? > > Hope > > > >> > Dr Chinny or Debasisda to answer. > > > >> > > > > >> > Regards > > > >> > > > > >> > Dr Naveen > > > >> > Shelter vet > > > >> > Kalimpong Animal Shelter, W.B. > > > >> > > > > >> Bengal health workers round up stray dogs to counter rabies > > > > Thu Aug 3, 2006 11:13 AM IST > > > > > > > > By Bappa Majumdar > > > > > > > > KOLKATA (Reuters) - Health workers have launched a new drive to > > > > round up thousands of stray dogs in West Bengal to counter > > > > rabies, with concern rising because of a shortage of vaccine. > > > > > > > > In West Bengal alone, over 40,000 people go to government > > > > hospitals every year after being bitten by dogs, but few complete > > > > the required course of treatment -- partly because vaccines are > > > in short > > > > supply, officials say. > > > > > > > > " We are left with no option but to control the dog population as > > > > rabies is spiralling out of control and no vaccines are available > > > > to treat thousands of victims, " said K.C. Barui, the director of > > > health> services in the eastern state. > > > > > > > > India reports at least 20,500 deaths from rabies every year out > > > > of 50,000fatalities globally, WHO data shows. But experts say many > > > > deaths go unreported. > > > > > > > > Poor people cannot afford to buy vaccines, which cost around > > > > 1,500 rupees($32) for a full course from private hospitals and > > > chemists.> > > > > In towns and cities across India, stray dogs are a common sight > > > > and often chase pedestrians, cyclists and cars. > > > > > > > > Kolkata alone is home to over 100,000 street dogs of which > > > 65,000 are > > > > potential carriers of the rabies virus, officials say, adding > > > > that an 80 percent shortfall of anti-rabies vaccines in West > > Bengal > > > > reflects a similar situation in other parts of India. > > > > > > > > " Controlling the dog population by vasectomy and isolating rabid > > > > dogs seems to be the only way out for India now, " Prabhakar > > > > Chatterjee, a senior WHO official, said in Kolkata. > > > > > > > > Animal welfare groups say they are hard pressed. > > > > > > > > " Our team of workers are hardly getting any sleep as we are > > > > catching dogs all the time, " said Debasis Chakravarti, founder of > > > > the Compassionate Crusaders Trust (CCT). > > > > > > > > He added that the CCT gets hundreds of calls a week from frantic > > > > residents in Kolkata asking for help after being bitten by a dog. > > > > > > > > If a person does not start the vaccination process within hours > > > > of a dog bite, they can die of rabies within days or weeks. > > > > > > > > © Reuters 2006. . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------\ ---- > > -- > > > > Get on board. 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