Buying meat for other people

February 10, 2008

Welcome, Kendrah! Your parents are SO lucky to have you to care for them! As

to their diet though--no wonder your mom is slow to heal, and your father's

health is suffering, too! NO WAY can they heal and get well eating " breakfast

bars " and *SHUDDER* " Lunchables " !!! NO WAY. Good grief.

I would, if it were me, actually respect their wishes somewhat and buy them

some organic meats and all natural cold cuts. You can't change their eating

habits by force feeding them tofu, or refusing to give them things they will

actually eat. Maybe others will differ on this, but that's my viewpoint.

If you have access to a juicer, will your parents drink fruit and vegetable

juices, if you make them? A delicious carrot-apple juice is SO healing! If

they won't object, you can add a handful of baby spinach into it. Or how about

a fruit smoothie made in the blender? You can sneak in some greens and other

nutritious " extras " (like tofu and ground flax or sesame seeds) without them

even knowing!

Do they eat salads? Wash and prepare the salad for them so they can just

grab it and eat throughout the day. How about a fruit or veggie platter. If you

cut up the fruit or veggies for them, would they pick at it while watching

TV? Can you buy organic yogurt with no added yucky stuff in it? How about

boiling some hard cooked eggs and cutting them up to add to that fruit or

veggie

platter, for extra protein?

Just some thoughts, as I don't know your parents. Maybe this sparked some

other ideas for you. Marilyn

**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.

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5

48)

February 10, 2008

Kendrah--Just wanted to add a little more to my previous post--and forgive

me if it's stupidly obvious. I think the reason, or part of the reason, why

your parents are choosing these " convenience " foods is that maybe they don't

have the mental or physical energy to think about what to eat and how to

prepare it. I know even for me--and I'm younger than your parents by over 10

years,

and in better health--but when I'm sick, or overwhelmed in some other way, I

can't function well enough to plan and prepare meals correctly.

For your mom, it must seem so EASY to open the wrapper of that " breakfast

bar " , or the box of already cut up lunchmeat. That's why I suggested that you

cut up the fruits and veggies, and even roll the cold cuts and boil and slice

the eggs. Set out the crackers, and cube the cheese. Leave a large amount of

prepared salad in a ziploc bag--and loosen the caps a little on the salad

dressings, so mom can open them easily (my mom had Parkinson's, so I think of

these things ). Make the BETTER choices as readily available as the junk was.

I think your mom will eat it.

This sort of thing is what I always bring to new mothers when I visit,

because a new mom is also overwhelmed, not at her best physically, and is in

desperate need of proper nourishment. I remember that the best thing my

midwife's

mom did for me when I was in labor was to make a huge pot of split pea soup!

And when my daughter had her baby in June, what did grandma bring? Frilly

pink baby dresses? A comforter for the crib? Oh no. Grandma brought VEGGIES

(cut

up and washed, of course)! Grandma brought SOUP!

Just some thoughts, FWIW. Marilyn

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48)

February 11, 2008

I was in a similar situation last year when my Mom had a terrible

fall, breaking both her femur and her arm. She was in a rehab

facility for 2 months and when they sent her home, she needed someone

to stay with her for a while. My 2 sisters had done so much of the

work before she was returned home so I was asked to come down from

Canada and stay a while with my Mom.

I am vegan. My Mom is not. She doesn't eat a lot of meat and has

always tried to be accomodating to the way I eat so I did what I

needed to do to help her fit back in at home. That means that I

bought groceries that included animal products and (forgive me if

this offends anyone but) I prepared them for her. I did however try

to buy more ethical choices for her with as much organic, free range

animal products as possible.

There were days where she ate no animal whatsoever, but my Mom is

86, she has lived a long hard life where she worked very hard to put

good meals on the table. I need to remind myself of that when it

seems so hard to do this cooking. Maybe I'm wrong but it was what I

needed to do.

I am always so relieved when I can cook vegan and get no

criticism. I absolutely LOVE cooking for my grandson. He has a

natural dislike for meat and loves everything that I make him. He is

a natural born veggie-boy.

Stef

---

February 11, 2008

Welcome,

I can see where you have several confusing issues - not your money

and you love your mother who has supported you. At one time I

probably would have purchased the items. For awhile, I even cooked

animals for my husband but then I couldn't even stand to have it in

my house. These decisions are difficult and I think you will find

that most people on this list feel we are all on a journey and have

to make those decisions the best we can.

FWIW, I would no longer purchase the items even if it wasn't my

money. My family lost everything in Hurricane Katrina and I was close

enough to take supplies and help with the recovery. Family from all

over the US mailed money to my house as they didn't have postal

service for about 3 months. Most of the money came with a list of

what to buy - some more specific than others. When it came to

groceries or products that may have animal ingredients, I shopped

very carefully and bought items that were not against my ethics. I

made sure the meals were balanced and had enough calories. If there

was no way around purchasing a particular item, I gave them cash.

Even with the extended recovery process, they were not going to go

hungry or become malnourished or in someway diseased because I didn't

purchase meat. If they WOULD suffer, I did what was needed - for

instance, medication. I picked up a prescription for antibiotics for

the baby. There were no open drugstores in their area and the doc

called it in over here. This was something I could not control or

manipulate - either I purchased it or not. So, I did (I believe it

had lactose in it). They weren't happy initially but they are okay

now and I don't have any regret that I caved on my principles.

I agree that it is going to be difficult for you as an only child

to " pick up the pieces. " I am not in that position and can only say

that I would act the same way I did during the hurricane. At 60

years old, if they become dependent on you and you control their

diet, you could really make a change in their health. But, my

scenario was not indefinite as yours could end up being. I can only

say that I would not buy the animal products. If you do it now, you

won't be able to refuse later. Our parents work hard to raise us and

hopefully they do so in a way that we become independent. But we

don't have to mirror our parents. We can love, respect and care for

them without compromising our values.

Can you purchase meat analogs? You could cut up the deli slices and

make lunchables for them. Like the other poster said, convenience may

be the biggest issue for your mom. Showing her that you can provide

convenient food may be enough. If not, I think your idea of a grocery

delivery is worth investigating.

Good luck,

Carrol

, Kendrah Nilsestuen <carebear-

79 wrote:

My mom broke her ankle ...> Yesterday my mom was in need of a few

groceries. ... Even though it was her

> money, I could not separate myself from what I was purchasing ...

She knows that we are vegan, and I thought even

> to ask me to purchase it for her (her money or not) was a little

over

> the top. I'm a very understanding vegan when it comes to other

people

> and their food choices. ... I'm wondering how other people would of

handled this? Usually

> my intuition is so clear on the " right " choice, but with this one

I

> was a little confused. It is against so many things I stand for to

> buy meat (especially that kind of meat). ... In the end, I

obviously didn't buy

> it.

February 11, 2008

What D just said was exactly why I said what I did. Hate to disagree with

ANYONE here, and I do understand and respect why someone would answer

differently. HOWEVER, my own parents are no longer here. I would give ANYTHING

to be

able to have them back and serve them anything in the world they wanted! They

raised me. We disagreed on a lot of things. If I could have them back, my

principles would DEFINITELY take a back seat. They sacrificed SO MUCH for me. I

could never refuse to buy them the foods they wanted, when they became unable

to buy them for themselves. Yes, I could see compromising on healthier

versions of their favorites. But I could never bring myself to refuse to

compromise with them, and withhold their favorite foods entirely, out of

" principle " .

My husband is a musician who does a lot of work in nursing homes. He has

actually told me about seeing aides who try to feed patients foods they don't

want, and what a horrible scene it makes. What a horrendous loss of dignity for

these precious old people! Our time with our loved ones is so short! It is

not our place to try and retrain our parents to our way of thinking, in their

golden years. We are to comfort and love them for exactly who they are,

because they did the same for us.

Just another viewpoint. Marilyn

**************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy

Awards. Go to AOL Music.

(http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565)

February 12, 2008

This is a difficult issue. I agree with those that have said it's important to

follow your ethics, but I have to interject a delicate question- is it possible

that your parents are on a down hill slide and you have limited time remaining

with them?

I know I would struggle with whether to give in on some of my principles (in

limited amounts) if it meant having a more pleasant visit and less friction

while their health was in rapid decline.

This calls for lots of prayer and meditation, probably no " right " answer, can

only do the best you can with what you have.

Take care,

D

February 12, 2008

I totaly agree here Marilyn.

Yes we do have our ethics but we dont have the right to put them

down on other people, not even our parents.

They are grownups who deserve respect. If they should change their

diet it should be their chioce not ours.

Yes it might not be health yes it might contain animal products but

it is their choice. They let us make our own mistakes in life while

growing up, we should give them the same freedom to make theirs.

Elderly people have really little appetite, so it is soooooo

important that they eat. Better give them somthing they like and

they eat, than somthing " healthy or ethical " and they dont eat.

We can, beside the stuff they ask for, buy some nice fresh juicy

fruits and maby cook some steemed vegies and serve it appertising,

to invite them to get a healthy addition to their normal diet.

And like someone here surgested to cut it into easy to eat pices, so

it is availeble at all time.

But I feel that the main point is that we dont force our belives

down on others without being asked or invited.

I have been a vegetarian for 17 years and a vegan for the last 3

years. My husband eats meat, but I wont prepare it for him. If my

mother on the other hand needed my help I would buy it and cook it.

I dont like that people eat animal products, but I still belive that

it is a personal choice and we have no right to judge.

I will inform people if being asked but never force it on them.

" We are to comfort and love them for exactly who they are, because

they did the same for us. " I coulden agree more :-)

Another side of it :-) Kristine

, sahmomof8 wrote:

>

> What D just said was exactly why I said what I did. Hate to

disagree with

> ANYONE here, and I do understand and respect why someone would

answer

> differently. HOWEVER, my own parents are no longer here. I would

give ANYTHING to be

> able to have them back and serve them anything in the world they

wanted! They

> raised me. We disagreed on a lot of things. If I could have them

back, my

> principles would DEFINITELY take a back seat. They sacrificed SO

MUCH for me. I

> could never refuse to buy them the foods they wanted, when they

became unable

> to buy them for themselves. Yes, I could see compromising on

healthier

> versions of their favorites. But I could never bring myself to

refuse to

> compromise with them, and withhold their favorite foods entirely,

out of " principle " .

>

> My husband is a musician who does a lot of work in nursing homes.

He has

> actually told me about seeing aides who try to feed patients

foods they don't

> want, and what a horrible scene it makes. What a horrendous loss

of dignity for

> these precious old people! Our time with our loved ones is so

short! It is

> not our place to try and retrain our parents to our way of

thinking, in their

> golden years. We are to comfort and love them for exactly who

they are,

> because they did the same for us.

>

> Just another viewpoint. Marilyn

February 12, 2008

D,

You bring up a good point. I know when my mother was dying in the hospital (she

went quickly from going in for a " routine " gallbladder surgery to dying and only

lived a month after the surgery) at first I was bringing her only organic vegan

foods, but in the end I would have probably brought her a steak and milkshake if

that is what she wanted (she never would have asked that from me so I wasn't in

that situation). In the end, I didn't want her to be feeling bad about her food

choices when we had such little precious time left together. I know that much

sound terrible since I'm a vegan for ethical reasons but seeing her is so much

pain I would have done anything to bring any joy to her life.

Linda

http://triballife.net/ A Marketplace for a Better World

" danitamark " <danitamark

Monday, February 11, 2008 9:07:27 PM

Re: Re: Buying meat for other people

This is a difficult issue. I agree with those that have said it's

important to follow your ethics, but I have to interject a delicate question- is

it possible that your parents are on a down hill slide and you have limited time

remaining with them?

I know I would struggle with whether to give in on some of my principles (in

limited amounts) if it meant having a more pleasant visit and less friction

while their health was in rapid decline.

This calls for lots of prayer and meditation, probably no " right " answer, can

only do the best you can with what you have.

Take care,

D

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February 13, 2008

Hi,

First, I am so sorry about your parents and all you're going through.

Could it be an option that you buy everything else, but just get

another person to do this one " dirty job " for you/your mom? Maybe

you do all the shopping, but get a meat-eating spouse or other friend

or relative to buy meat? And if you do buy meat, get meat that's

already prepared as much as possible, so your involvement with meat

is minimal (the Lunchables fit the bill)?

I can understand that on the one hand, you want to do everything to

make your mom's life easier and as pleasant as possible. On the other

hand, I can imagine that buying and preparing meat would make me feel

like a hypocrite, or an accomplice, or even just make me feel

nauseated and ill. It just feels so wrong - and yet in this case,

getting meat for your mom if she asks for it is probably the right

thing to do.

I like the idea of the grocery delivery system, especially if there's

no one else who could get the meat instead of you.

All the best for you and your family!

Beth

February 13, 2008

In a message dated 2/13/2008 9:06:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

breigber writes:

(the Lunchables fit the bill)

The Feingold Association sent a newsletter out recently, listing the

ingredients of one of the Lunchables meals (which was called " smart meals " or

some

such idiotic thing). The ingredients were HORRIFIC--just disgusting (and I

mean from a nutritional standpoint, not even a vegetarian one!)--too many

" artificials " in one place to be believed! My kids were hysterical reading

about

it, and then we actually read the packages in the store on our next trip, and

we simply can't bring ourselves to believe ANYONE purchases these for their

precious kids, even die hard meat eaters!

I think I'll stand by my original advice--buy organic cold cuts and cut them

up yourself. Marilyn

**************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy

Awards. Go to AOL Music.

(http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565)

February 14, 2008

First of all... there are healthy vegan alternatives to easy meals (aka

" lunchables " ).

Try the frozen food dept at Whole Foods... or you can find many vegan dishes

in their deli. Their vegan dishes can be bought in individual serving sizes,

heated and served as a meal.

Easy & inexpensive!

Secondly, I don't believe we are helping anyone by purchasing animal products

for another. In doing so, we are supporting factory farming, further global

warming, and harm individual health.

My daughter is vegetarian & I am vegan.

I am full time caregiver for my elderly parents who live with us:

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/ElderCare/story?id=3312814 & page=1

Before we all lived together in our vegan house, my parents ate a traditional

meat & potatoes (kosher) diet. My mother has embraced the change & has become

totally vegan. However, my father misses having animal products at home.

Under Jewish law, we are obligated (among other things) to honor our parents,

to protect our environment, and to preserve health. I don't believe I would be

fulfilling these obligations if I fed my parents animal products.

My parents' doctors marvel at their remarkable good health, considering their

age & their family history. Even though my parents are not the youngest of

their families, my mother (88 next month) has outlived all 4 of her siblings and

my father (90 in August, G-d willing!) has outlived 5 of his siblings. The only

difference between my folks and their siblings is that my parents have been veg

for the past 10 years.

I firmly believe that my parents vegan diet has helped keep them alive.

Wishing you all long life & good health,

Michelle

Group for Jewish Veg: JVeg/

Miriam's Well

Michelle Booth, owner

796 Niantic Drive

Foster City, CA. 94404

(650) 341-4400

www.miriams-well.com

February 17, 2008

Hi Everyone,

Thank you for your thoughts. I'm sorry to clog the board with this

issue. I know I should probably just buy them what they ask for, for

gosh sakes! I mean what else can I do? It is their money, their

lives. I feel like I am buying them poison or something. I stopped in

the grocery store and looked at the ingredients on a Lunchable. It

was very scary. Felt like it took me at least five minutes to read

through what was in those things.

Ya know, my dad quit smoking a year ago, when he was diagnosed with

COPD. Yay for him for quitting smoking. I'm very proud of him. He

smoked for 40 years 2-3 packs a day (no this is not an exaggeration).

Nothing I would say (even as a young child who would cry when he

smoked around me) could change his mind. It had to come from him.

But, I never would have bought him a pack of cigarettes. Ever. I feel

like the foods they eat aren't much different. If I buy it, I'm

contributing to their rapid health decline. Can I live with that?

Guess only I can make that decision. Seems I've exhausted all other

alternatives. My parents won't listen to a thing I say about food.

Even though they can see how wonderful a vegan diet is for me, I

don't ever see them embracing it themselves.

My dad just got out of the hospital. In the hospital he was on a

" heart diet " . It was vegetarian, almost vegan. He could only eat

Garden Burgers, veggie pizza, rice pilaf, etc. Virtually NO animal

products. His desert choices were limited as well. So much so he told

me he was going to go down the elevator to the next floor (this was a

big no-no he could only walk the floor he was on), and get candy bars

from the vending machine. Did he do it? I can't know for sure, but

probably. He was also frustrated that I wouldn't just sneak him a

candy bars in the hospital.

All the while he was in the hospital he told me that he couldn't

understand what not eating meat had to do with his heart. " Meat

affects your colon, not your heart. " he tells me. Sigh. I tried to

explain the affects meat could have on the heart and he flat out told

me that he will NEVER stop eating meat. So, I guess I've done what I

can here. I love my parents and want them to be around a long time,

it just bothers me so much they don't want the same for themselves.

He said in the hospital that he lost some weight and was feeling

great. He attributes all of this to the high doses of meds they have

him on, not his diet at all. Sign again.

Thanks for all the ideas and support. I don't want whatever time I

have left with my parents to be adversarial, but I'd like to have a

long time left with them too.

Kendrah:)

February 24, 2008

Hi my name is Cathe. I am a mother of 5 and also a nurse. I worked

on the cardiac floor before becoming a hospice nurse. I can say in

general the larger population of pt we would see in the heart floor

had years of poor eating and life choices that eventually led them to

needing Open heart surgery or catheterization. It begins with

obesity which leads to type two diabetes, which leads to hardened

vessels which leads to High BP which leads to kidney and heart

problems. I can gaurantee that thier MD's have been telling them for

years that they need to lose wt, change their diet, etc, etc...It is

sad but even after open heart surgery many people are not able to

change their ways. If they could, they would have done it years ago.

It's heatbreaking, but it is what it is. I count myself blessed that

I am still willing to learn, grow, and change. Many people are not.

My

dad knew he was at high risk for diabetes and heart problems but he

still is not able to fully change his ways. on the other hand It was

my parents poor lifestyle choices and the poor health that came of it

that led me to make better choices and become vegan.

As a hospice nurse my job is not to change or solve my patients

problems so they can have an ideal death. It's to honor where they

are in their life, knowing that this is how far they were able grow

and learn, and be willing to walk that path with them and give

them the best quality of life as possible. " Best Quality " is very

different for every person. My suggestion would be to honor and love,

support your parents, focus on enjoying the time you have with them,

and not let the different values and life choices get in the way.

, Kendrah Nilsestuen <carebear-

79 wrote:

>

> Hi Everyone,

>

> I'm new, and happy to be here. I'm Kendrah, my husband is Justin,

> and we have two kiddos Payge (4.5), Damien (22 months). I had a

bit

> of a conundrum this weekend and I'm wondering what other veggies

> thought. Currently, my parents health has been on a downhill slide

as

> of late. My mom broke her ankle so severely the week of

Thanksgiving

> that it has required 4 surgeries since. She has been home bound

for

> the most part since it was broken (only leaving the house for Dr.s

> appointments). She still has to sit confined to a bed or chair,

and

> only get up to go to the bathroom. It has been this way for the

last

> 10 weeks. Her healing has been slow to say the least. My dad (who

has

> his own set of heart and lung issues, and is on oxygen 24/7) has

been

> taking more responsibility for the house (cooking dinner, chores,

> etc). I go over once (sometimes twice) a week and clean for them

as

> well (my dad won't scrub toilets, lol!). I live a 45 min drive one

> way away from them. This past week my dad was admitted to the

> hospital twice with possible heart failure, and still remains

there

> for more testing. Since he is in the hospital my mom (who is not

> supposed to get up more than to go to the bathroom) is home alone.

> I've been doing a lot of running back and forth. All this will tie

in

> later, but I wanted to give some background up front.

>

> Yesterday my mom was in need of a few groceries. I asked what she

> needed. She wanted breakfast bars, yogurt (dairy kind), and

> Lunchables. Yes, those disgusting little snack meals made with

> probably the worst factory farmed meat & dairy possible. She was

> going to pay me back for her groceries, it was her essentially her

> money. Still I couldn't buy the Lunchables. Even though it was her

> money, I could not separate myself from what I was purchasing

(though

> I wasn't the one paying for it). If this had been a job and I was

> taking care of someone I would of had to buy it. It was just

anyone

> though, it is my mom. She knows that we are vegan, and I thought

even

> to ask me to purchase it for her (her money or not) was a little

over

> the top. I'm a very understanding vegan when it comes to other

people

> and their food choices. We spent Thanksgiving at my parents and

they

> had a turkey. We separated the table so that our vegan meal was on

> one side, and their non-vegan meal was on the other. It worked out

> fine. I never make comments on how they shouldn't eat meat. I

choose

> not to make that same choice for my family and I and that is where

it

> ends. I'm wondering how other people would of handled this?

Usually

> my intuition is so clear on the " right " choice, but with this one

I

> was a little confused. It is against so many things I stand for to

> buy meat (especially that kind of meat). On the other hand, it

wasn't

> my money to choose how to spend. In the end, I obviously didn't

buy

> it. I tried to find a compromise in buying crackers and organic

> cheese. I told my mom any organic groceries she needs (that are in

> the ovo-lacto category) I'd be wlling to buy, but I will not

purchase

> meat, my money or not. My mom (who often times does try to cater

to

> our veganism) was a little perturbed and made a somewhat snide " I'm

a

> vegan so I can't buy meat " comment. I told her that was correct.

We

> then talked about how some stores have a delivery service and that

> might be an option for her.

>

> On another note, this is all tying together because I feel had

they

> been taking care of themselves (eating more healthfully) they

> wouldn't be in the state of health they are currently in. They

> haven't taken care of themselves for 60 years, and now I (with no

> siblings that can help) have to be there to pick up the pieces.

Not

> easy to do with an active 4.5 y/o, and almost 2 y/o.

>

> I love my parents dearly, and rarely get frustrated about food

issues

> anymore, but the Lunchable request, and the subsequent snide

comment

> has thrown me for a loop. I thought I'd post here for thoughts,

and

> to vent. It is 3am right now (having some trouble sleeping), so if

I

> have a lot of typos, please forgive me. My brain isn't exactly

sharp

> this time of day!

>

February 25, 2008

Hi Kendrah,

You know, we've had a lot of issues like this in our family. My partner

and I helped take care of my in-laws when they were both sick, and it

was a real struggle for us to buy the food they asked for, even with

their money, and it was even hard for me to dish up the meat food (even

though I didn't cook it). And we've had problems with our nieces who

eat very few foods, are just really picky eaters, and order really

unhealthy foods when we take them out to eat or offer to pick up food

for them on our way over (chicken nuggets, etc.). We have dealt with it

in a lot of different ways - from not buying the foods, to buying

alternatives like you did, to just buying what they ask for and chalk it

up to thank goodness they all let us alone with our decisions and we now

have to let them alone with theirs. My mom would have said the same

thing your mom said, I'm quite sure.

It's a really tough situation, and I think my decision depends on how

seriously I feel about a particular situation, and what the bigger

picture is. For example, the day our nieces found out their step-dad

was moving out - they just got the stupid chicken nuggets; and the day

before my father-in-law passed away, he was laying, blind and immobile,

in the hospital bed hospice had moved into the house, and he asked for

someone to make him a ham sandwich. It made me gag, but my partner just

made the sandwich for his dad. On other days, we've felt like really

sticking to our gut instincts a bit more, and educating our family

members a little more, but sometimes we let it go. I know just how you

feel, though - my in-laws were definitely sick as a result of their

lifestyles and diet - we just couldn't change them, and never did

succeed on that. :-) We'd just go home and calmly appreciate our

organic, vegetarian food, and strengthen ourselves for the next day.

Be strong for your next day - and what a great daughter you are for

taking care of your parents so kindly and for caring about them so much!

Lorraine

On

Behalf Of daycathe

Sunday, February 24, 2008 10:39 AM

Re: Buying meat for other people