Guest guest Posted April 19, 2008 Report Share Posted April 19, 2008 This is kinda off topic, but I've learned so much from you all that I'm going to try another I've lost 3 babies this year. I'm not satisfied with the Medical approach (long story), so I've started acupuncture/Chinese medicine. The OMD has told me 3 times now that my pulses are weak and I need more protein. I'm desperate for breakfast ideas! Usually, I eat a piece of whole spelt toast with peanut butter and a banana and hot herbal tea. Often, I find myself to bored with my options that I just skip meals altogether. I know it's not healthy... Liz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2008 Report Share Posted April 19, 2008 breakfast burritos: whote wheat (or spelt) torillas, refriend beans, brown rice, salsa, veggie chorizo, avocado, etc. Liz Vergnault <evergnault wrote: This is kinda off topic, but I've learned so much from you all that I'm going to try another I've lost 3 babies this year. I'm not satisfied with the Medical approach (long story), so I've started acupuncture/Chinese medicine. The OMD has told me 3 times now that my pulses are weak and I need more protein. I'm desperate for breakfast ideas! Usually, I eat a piece of whole spelt toast with peanut butter and a banana and hot herbal tea. Often, I find myself to bored with my options that I just skip meals altogether. I know it's not healthy... Liz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2008 Report Share Posted April 19, 2008 I am really sorry to hear about your loss. There is a lot of misinformation out there about the amount of protein we need in our diet. As long as you are eating a varied whole foods diet, you will get enough protein. Instead of bread, try eating the whole grains themselves. Try adding flax seed meal to oatmeal (not the quick cooking instant stuff - real oats) in the morning. Also, you may want to try increasing your amount of dark leafy greens or some of the other " superfoods " (Kale, blueberries, walnuts, etc.) There is a pretty good vegetarian pregnancy and family cookbook out there called the Vegetarian Mother's cookbook. Or you may want to read Eat to Live by Joel Fuhrman. Good luck! ~Susan On Apr 18, 2008, at 8:02 PM, Liz Vergnault wrote: > This is kinda off topic, but I've learned so much from you all that > I'm going to try another I've lost 3 babies this year. I'm not > satisfied with the Medical approach (long story), so I've started > acupuncture/Chinese medicine. The OMD has told me 3 times now that > my pulses are weak and I need more protein. I'm desperate for > breakfast ideas! Usually, I eat a piece of whole spelt toast with > peanut butter and a banana and hot herbal tea. Often, I find myself > to bored with my options that I just skip meals altogether. I know > it's not healthy... > Liz > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2008 Report Share Posted April 19, 2008 I love the red mill's hot breakfast cereals. I don't know if you eat eggs but that would help. Also can try the Morning star farms breakfast stuff. Hope this helps. On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 5:02 PM, Liz Vergnault <evergnault wrote: > This is kinda off topic, but I've learned so much from you all that I'm > going to try another I've lost 3 babies this year. I'm not satisfied with > the Medical approach (long story), so I've started acupuncture/Chinese > medicine. The OMD has told me 3 times now that my pulses are weak and I need > more protein. I'm desperate for breakfast ideas! Usually, I eat a piece of > whole spelt toast with peanut butter and a banana and hot herbal tea. Often, > I find myself to bored with my options that I just skip meals altogether. I > know it's not healthy... > Liz > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2008 Report Share Posted April 20, 2008 Liz--I am so, so sorry for your losses! When I was pregnant with my last baby, I checked out www.blueribbonbaby.org . That's the website for the Brewer diet. My Bradley instructor with my third child had actually insisted we all do the Brewer diet when taking her classes. I don't know if all Bradley instructors teach that, but ours did. So when I was pregnant this time, I went back to it. I had also suffered the loss of my previous two babies,and was now 48 years old, so I was trying to do everything I could to keep that baby. I was not veg before, but I was trying to be now, so the standard Brewer diet would not have been appropriate for me anymore. On the Brewer site, I found a vegan alternative Brewer plan, which was heavy on the soy. Maybe too heavy on the soy, but better than eating all the meat and drinking any dairy, for me. There was also an " independent " Brewer site I found when web surfing that had a vegan Brewer plan. I tried my best to stick to the vegan Brewer plan, and succeeded fairly well. I gave birth at home, after a healthy pregnancy, to a beautiful, healthy baby girl, just weeks before my 49th birthday. I don't know if the Brewer diet was what did the trick for us this time around, but if I were to get pregnant again (unlikely as that is), I would do it all over again, without hesitation. HTH! Best of luck to you! Marilyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2008 Report Share Posted April 21, 2008 Hi Liz, I am studying Herbal medicine and Nutrition at uni and we have been foccussing on protein this month! If you are vegan - tempeh (grated and added to spreads for toast) , Quinoa (can have as porrage for brekky) and if you are lacto-ovo veg, EGGS are the best source of protien, packed full of every essential amino acid (the building blocks of protein), boiled or poached is best. Cottage cheese/quark is also very high in protein and easy to incorporate into many meals. The ratios we are learning are 30/30/40 - protien/fats/carbs. I have started eating protein at breakfast everyday and have been feeling so much more vital. And not experiencing the afternoon slump that I used to. Good luck Liz. Becky On 19/04/2008, at 10:02 AM, Liz Vergnault wrote: > This is kinda off topic, but I've learned so much from you all that > I'm going to try another I've lost 3 babies this year. I'm not > satisfied with the Medical approach (long story), so I've started > acupuncture/Chinese medicine. The OMD has told me 3 times now that > my pulses are weak and I need more protein. I'm desperate for > breakfast ideas! Usually, I eat a piece of whole spelt toast with > peanut butter and a banana and hot herbal tea. Often, I find myself > to bored with my options that I just skip meals altogether. I know > it's not healthy... > Liz > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2008 Report Share Posted April 21, 2008 I know many mamas thru my ICAN chapter who swear by the Brewer diet, but I stopped reading at the point where they said the first thing I needto do is dring 4 glasses of full fat cows milk every day. I just feel like if I ate their prescribed diet for 1 month, I would give birth to a cow. But now that I know there are options, I will seek them out. I was very intrigued that the OMD said I was lacking protein before she ever asked about my diet. She could feel it in my pulse. So cool!! And she's probably right Thank you all for your help! Liz sahmomof8 <sahmomof8 Sunday, April 20, 2008 9:20:14 AM Re: kinda OT - need protein! Liz--I am so, so sorry for your losses! When I was pregnant with my last baby, I checked out www.blueribbonbaby. org . That's the website for the Brewer diet. My Bradley instructor with my third child had actually insisted we all do the Brewer diet when taking her classes. I don't know if all Bradley instructors teach that, but ours did. So when I was pregnant this time, I went back to it. I had also suffered the loss of my previous two babies,and was now 48 years old, so I was trying to do everything I could to keep that baby. I was not veg before, but I was trying to be now, so the standard Brewer diet would not have been appropriate for me anymore. On the Brewer site, I found a vegan alternative Brewer plan, which was heavy on the soy. Maybe too heavy on the soy, but better than eating all the meat and drinking any dairy, for me. There was also an " independent " Brewer site I found when web surfing that had a vegan Brewer plan. I tried my best to stick to the vegan Brewer plan, and succeeded fairly well. I gave birth at home, after a healthy pregnancy, to a beautiful, healthy baby girl, just weeks before my 49th birthday. I don't know if the Brewer diet was what did the trick for us this time around, but if I were to get pregnant again (unlikely as that is), I would do it all over again, without hesitation. HTH! Best of luck to you! Marilyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2008 Report Share Posted April 21, 2008 liz, one thing that nobody here has mentioned is to consider the biases of this OMD. everyone has biases and oriental medicine is not different. just because it's alternative doesn't mean it's infallible. despite the history of good health and good diets in asian countries, they have always been culturally biased in favor of meat. chinese culture in particular is very centered on wealth and meat has always represented wealth, the ability to accrue foods other than rice and vegetables. gabriel cousens discusses this important issue in " conscious eating " - the fact that so many people, especially veggies and raw foodists will visit a practitioner of oriental medicine and hear that they need more protein because they don't eat meat. the supposed need for more protein is a hallmark of oriental medicine. if your practitioner told you that without even knowing you, it's probably far more reflective of the bias of the practitioner than any message s/he receive from your pulse. chandelle On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 10:08 PM, Liz Vergnault <evergnault wrote: > I know many mamas thru my ICAN chapter who swear by the Brewer diet, but > I stopped reading at the point where they said the first thing I needto do > is dring 4 glasses of full fat cows milk every day. I just feel like if I > ate their prescribed diet for 1 month, I would give birth to a cow. But now > that I know there are options, I will seek them out. I was very intrigued > that the OMD said I was lacking protein before she ever asked about my diet. > She could feel it in my pulse. So cool!! And she's probably right Thank > you all for your help! > Liz > > > sahmomof8 <sahmomof8 <sahmomof8%40aol.com>> > <%40> > Sunday, April 20, 2008 9:20:14 AM > Re: kinda OT - need protein! > > Liz--I am so, so sorry for your losses! When I was pregnant with my > last baby, I checked out www.blueribbonbaby. org . That's the website > for the Brewer diet. My Bradley instructor with my third child had > actually insisted we all do the Brewer diet when taking her classes. > I don't know if all Bradley instructors teach that, but ours did. So > when I was pregnant this time, I went back to it. I had also suffered > the loss of my previous two babies,and was now 48 years old, so I was > trying to do everything I could to keep that baby. > > I was not veg before, but I was trying to be now, so the standard > Brewer diet would not have been appropriate for me anymore. On the > Brewer site, I found a vegan alternative Brewer plan, which was heavy > on the soy. Maybe too heavy on the soy, but better than eating all > the meat and drinking any dairy, for me. There was also > an " independent " Brewer site I found when web surfing that had a > vegan Brewer plan. > > I tried my best to stick to the vegan Brewer plan, and succeeded > fairly well. I gave birth at home, after a healthy pregnancy, to a > beautiful, healthy baby girl, just weeks before my 49th birthday. I > don't know if the Brewer diet was what did the trick for us this time > around, but if I were to get pregnant again (unlikely as that is), I > would do it all over again, without hesitation. > > HTH! Best of luck to you! Marilyn > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2008 Report Share Posted April 21, 2008 Just an opinion, but you may want to do some research outside of what is being taught at your school. 30% protein is incredibly high. Your body has to work harder to get rid of the protein and studies have shown that such high protein can actually lead to disease. Below are a couple of links, but there is a lot of information out there about the protein myth. http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/protein.htm http://www.pcrm.org/health/veginfo/protein.html ~Susan On Apr 20, 2008, at 7:35 PM, Becky wrote: > Hi Liz, > I am studying Herbal medicine and Nutrition at uni and we have been > foccussing on protein this month! > If you are vegan - tempeh (grated and added to spreads for toast) , > Quinoa (can have as porrage for brekky) > and if you are lacto-ovo veg, EGGS are the best source of protien, > packed full of every essential amino acid (the building blocks of > protein), boiled or poached is best. > Cottage cheese/quark is also very high in protein and easy to > incorporate into many meals. > The ratios we are learning are 30/30/40 - protien/fats/carbs. I have > started eating protein at breakfast everyday and have been feeling so > much more vital. And not experiencing the afternoon slump that I > used to. > Good luck Liz. > Becky > > On 19/04/2008, at 10:02 AM, Liz Vergnault wrote: > > > This is kinda off topic, but I've learned so much from you all that > > I'm going to try another I've lost 3 babies this year. I'm not > > satisfied with the Medical approach (long story), so I've started > > acupuncture/Chinese medicine. The OMD has told me 3 times now that > > my pulses are weak and I need more protein. I'm desperate for > > breakfast ideas! Usually, I eat a piece of whole spelt toast with > > peanut butter and a banana and hot herbal tea. Often, I find myself > > to bored with my options that I just skip meals altogether. I know > > it's not healthy... > > Liz > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2008 Report Share Posted April 21, 2008 i agree - t. colin campbell illustrates this point wonderfully (the problem of excessive protein) in " the china study. " that 30/30/40 ratio is what most of modern america takes in and it's obviously not doing anybody any good here. chandelle On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 11:15 AM, Susan Williams <virgo.vegan wrote: > Just an opinion, but you may want to do some research outside of what > is being taught at your school. 30% protein is incredibly high. Your > body has to work harder to get rid of the protein and studies have > shown that such high protein can actually lead to disease. Below are > a couple of links, but there is a lot of information out there about > the protein myth. > > http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/protein.htm > http://www.pcrm.org/health/veginfo/protein.html > > ~Susan > > > On Apr 20, 2008, at 7:35 PM, Becky wrote: > > > Hi Liz, > > I am studying Herbal medicine and Nutrition at uni and we have been > > foccussing on protein this month! > > If you are vegan - tempeh (grated and added to spreads for toast) , > > Quinoa (can have as porrage for brekky) > > and if you are lacto-ovo veg, EGGS are the best source of protien, > > packed full of every essential amino acid (the building blocks of > > protein), boiled or poached is best. > > Cottage cheese/quark is also very high in protein and easy to > > incorporate into many meals. > > The ratios we are learning are 30/30/40 - protien/fats/carbs. I have > > started eating protein at breakfast everyday and have been feeling so > > much more vital. And not experiencing the afternoon slump that I > > used to. > > Good luck Liz. > > Becky > > > > On 19/04/2008, at 10:02 AM, Liz Vergnault wrote: > > > > > This is kinda off topic, but I've learned so much from you all that > > > I'm going to try another I've lost 3 babies this year. I'm not > > > satisfied with the Medical approach (long story), so I've started > > > acupuncture/Chinese medicine. The OMD has told me 3 times now that > > > my pulses are weak and I need more protein. I'm desperate for > > > breakfast ideas! Usually, I eat a piece of whole spelt toast with > > > peanut butter and a banana and hot herbal tea. Often, I find myself > > > to bored with my options that I just skip meals altogether. I know > > > it's not healthy... > > > Liz > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2008 Report Share Posted April 21, 2008 Wow, I'm so glad I posted this here!! Thank you all for your input. I've always eaten to hunger - what I feel like my body needs rather than counting grams of this or that. Recently though, I've noticed that said body wants a bunch of crap!! I've been eating way to much white stuff. It's interesting that the Chinese perspective believes that the body craves more of what is throwing it out of balance. I also was under the impression that while people in big Chinese cities put more of an emphasis on flesh foods, that the rural people still eat a largely plant based diet. I think I got this from the China Study. Anyway, I've added some eggs to my world and I'm feeling much better physically, energy-wise. Dairy is a problem because I'm very sensitive to lactose. Thank you for sharing! Liz chandelle' <earthmother213 Monday, April 21, 2008 12:33:40 PM Re: kinda OT - need protein! i agree - t. colin campbell illustrates this point wonderfully (the problem of excessive protein) in " the china study. " that 30/30/40 ratio is what most of modern america takes in and it's obviously not doing anybody any good here. chandelle On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 11:15 AM, Susan Williams <virgo.vegan@ gmail.com> wrote: > Just an opinion, but you may want to do some research outside of what > is being taught at your school. 30% protein is incredibly high. Your > body has to work harder to get rid of the protein and studies have > shown that such high protein can actually lead to disease. Below are > a couple of links, but there is a lot of information out there about > the protein myth. > > http://www.vrg. org/nutrition/ protein.htm > http://www.pcrm. org/health/ veginfo/protein. html > > ~Susan > > > On Apr 20, 2008, at 7:35 PM, Becky wrote: > > > Hi Liz, > > I am studying Herbal medicine and Nutrition at uni and we have been > > foccussing on protein this month! > > If you are vegan - tempeh (grated and added to spreads for toast) , > > Quinoa (can have as porrage for brekky) > > and if you are lacto-ovo veg, EGGS are the best source of protien, > > packed full of every essential amino acid (the building blocks of > > protein), boiled or poached is best. > > Cottage cheese/quark is also very high in protein and easy to > > incorporate into many meals. > > The ratios we are learning are 30/30/40 - protien/fats/ carbs. I have > > started eating protein at breakfast everyday and have been feeling so > > much more vital. And not experiencing the afternoon slump that I > > used to. > > Good luck Liz. > > Becky > > > > On 19/04/2008, at 10:02 AM, Liz Vergnault wrote: > > > > > This is kinda off topic, but I've learned so much from you all that > > > I'm going to try another I've lost 3 babies this year. I'm not > > > satisfied with the Medical approach (long story), so I've started > > > acupuncture/ Chinese medicine. The OMD has told me 3 times now that > > > my pulses are weak and I need more protein. I'm desperate for > > > breakfast ideas! Usually, I eat a piece of whole spelt toast with > > > peanut butter and a banana and hot herbal tea. Often, I find myself > > > to bored with my options that I just skip meals altogether. I know > > > it's not healthy... > > > Liz > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 yes, they do eat a diet still largely composed of plant foods in most asian countries, especially rurally. but this is largely because that's what's available to them. meat is still associated with wealth, luck and improvement in life circumstances, so even if they don't eat that way, they still have a bias toward it. i totally hear you on craving crap! i had very hard pregnancies because i craved all the wrong things and couldn't stand to eat the right things. it was very frustrating for me. once, a friend told me that we often crave exactly the foods we need, or else we crave foods that sidelong supply us with what we need, like maybe we crave meat, even though it's bad for us, just because we need protein and that's what our body associates with high levels of protein. but if that was true, then what i " needed " for my health was high fructose corn syrup, other sugars, and red dye #5, because i craved candy and crap like that like never before in my life! chandelle On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 4:53 PM, Liz Vergnault <evergnault wrote: > Wow, I'm so glad I posted this here!! Thank you all for your input. I've > always eaten to hunger - what I feel like my body needs rather than counting > grams of this or that. Recently though, I've noticed that said body wants a > bunch of crap!! I've been eating way to much white stuff. It's interesting > that the Chinese perspective believes that the body craves more of what is > throwing it out of balance. I also was under the impression that while > people in big Chinese cities put more of an emphasis on flesh foods, that > the rural people still eat a largely plant based diet. I think I got this > from the China Study. Anyway, I've added some eggs to my world and I'm > feeling much better physically, energy-wise. Dairy is a problem because I'm > very sensitive to lactose. Thank you for sharing! > Liz > > > > chandelle' <earthmother213 <earthmother213%40gmail.com>> > <%40> > Monday, April 21, 2008 12:33:40 PM > Re: kinda OT - need protein! > > i agree - t. colin campbell illustrates this point wonderfully (the > problem > of excessive protein) in " the china study. " that 30/30/40 ratio is what > most of modern america takes in and it's obviously not doing anybody any > good here. > > chandelle > > On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 11:15 AM, Susan Williams <virgo.vegan@ gmail.com> > wrote: > > > Just an opinion, but you may want to do some research outside of what > > is being taught at your school. 30% protein is incredibly high. Your > > body has to work harder to get rid of the protein and studies have > > shown that such high protein can actually lead to disease. Below are > > a couple of links, but there is a lot of information out there about > > the protein myth. > > > > http://www.vrg. org/nutrition/ protein.htm > > http://www.pcrm. org/health/ veginfo/protein. html > > > > ~Susan > > > > > > On Apr 20, 2008, at 7:35 PM, Becky wrote: > > > > > Hi Liz, > > > I am studying Herbal medicine and Nutrition at uni and we have been > > > foccussing on protein this month! > > > If you are vegan - tempeh (grated and added to spreads for toast) , > > > Quinoa (can have as porrage for brekky) > > > and if you are lacto-ovo veg, EGGS are the best source of protien, > > > packed full of every essential amino acid (the building blocks of > > > protein), boiled or poached is best. > > > Cottage cheese/quark is also very high in protein and easy to > > > incorporate into many meals. > > > The ratios we are learning are 30/30/40 - protien/fats/ carbs. I have > > > started eating protein at breakfast everyday and have been feeling so > > > much more vital. And not experiencing the afternoon slump that I > > > used to. > > > Good luck Liz. > > > Becky > > > > > > On 19/04/2008, at 10:02 AM, Liz Vergnault wrote: > > > > > > > This is kinda off topic, but I've learned so much from you all that > > > > I'm going to try another I've lost 3 babies this year. I'm not > > > > satisfied with the Medical approach (long story), so I've started > > > > acupuncture/ Chinese medicine. The OMD has told me 3 times now that > > > > my pulses are weak and I need more protein. I'm desperate for > > > > breakfast ideas! Usually, I eat a piece of whole spelt toast with > > > > peanut butter and a banana and hot herbal tea. Often, I find myself > > > > to bored with my options that I just skip meals altogether. I know > > > > it's not healthy... > > > > Liz > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 As much as I hate them, eggs can do some miracles (and some major damage). A part to " Skinny Bitch " that I really liked was when to eat what. B/c fruit can do some rotting damage on top of a full stomach, eating fruit on an empty stomach when you are feeling hungry in the morning did a lot for me. I eat 1 piece of fruit when I feel hungry for the first time in the day, wait 30 minutes. If still hungry, I eat 1more piece of fruit. Wait 30 minutes, eat again if still hungry. By this time, for me, it is almost my lunch time, so I end up eating hurried during a lesson later so I can't follow through with the rest of the rules (and if I am awake at 10 pm I usually have a snack which is totally bad!) Having a serving of beans at lunch gets me through my afternoon slump. Today I skipped my soup and ate some chewy chocolate candy-things and ended up really sick feeling within 2 hours Do you eat nuts? Those are good for the health fats during pregnancy. Do you eat tofu? Veggie and bean (counts as 2 for me LOL). Best wishes on TTC. Cassie " life's a garden, dig it! Sent from my iPhone On Apr 21, 2008, at 6:53 PM, Liz Vergnault <evergnault wrote: Wow, I'm so glad I posted this here!! Thank you all for your input. I've always eaten to hunger - what I feel like my body needs rather than counting grams of this or that. Recently though, I've noticed that said body wants a bunch of crap!! I've been eating way to much white stuff. It's interesting that the Chinese perspective believes that the body craves more of what is throwing it out of balance. I also was under the impression that while people in big Chinese cities put more of an emphasis on flesh foods, that the rural people still eat a largely plant based diet. I think I got this from the China Study. Anyway, I've added some eggs to my world and I'm feeling much better physically, energy-wise. Dairy is a problem because I'm very sensitive to lactose. Thank you for sharing! Liz chandelle' <earthmother213 Monday, April 21, 2008 12:33:40 PM Re: kinda OT - need protein! i agree - t. colin campbell illustrates this point wonderfully (the problem of excessive protein) in " the china study. " that 30/30/40 ratio is what most of modern america takes in and it's obviously not doing anybody any good here. chandelle On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 11:15 AM, Susan Williams <virgo.vegan@ gmail.com> wrote: > Just an opinion, but you may want to do some research outside of what > is being taught at your school. 30% protein is incredibly high. Your > body has to work harder to get rid of the protein and studies have > shown that such high protein can actually lead to disease. Below are > a couple of links, but there is a lot of information out there about > the protein myth. > > http://www.vrg. org/nutrition/ protein.htm > http://www.pcrm. org/health/ veginfo/protein. html > > ~Susan > > > On Apr 20, 2008, at 7:35 PM, Becky wrote: > > > Hi Liz, > > I am studying Herbal medicine and Nutrition at uni and we have been > > foccussing on protein this month! > > If you are vegan - tempeh (grated and added to spreads for toast) , > > Quinoa (can have as porrage for brekky) > > and if you are lacto-ovo veg, EGGS are the best source of protien, > > packed full of every essential amino acid (the building blocks of > > protein), boiled or poached is best. > > Cottage cheese/quark is also very high in protein and easy to > > incorporate into many meals. > > The ratios we are learning are 30/30/40 - protien/fats/ carbs. I have > > started eating protein at breakfast everyday and have been feeling so > > much more vital. And not experiencing the afternoon slump that I > > used to. > > Good luck Liz. > > Becky > > > > On 19/04/2008, at 10:02 AM, Liz Vergnault wrote: > > > > > This is kinda off topic, but I've learned so much from you all that > > > I'm going to try another I've lost 3 babies this year. I'm not > > > satisfied with the Medical approach (long story), so I've started > > > acupuncture/ Chinese medicine. The OMD has told me 3 times now that > > > my pulses are weak and I need more protein. I'm desperate for > > > breakfast ideas! Usually, I eat a piece of whole spelt toast with > > > peanut butter and a banana and hot herbal tea. Often, I find myself > > > to bored with my options that I just skip meals altogether. I know > > > it's not healthy... > > > Liz > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 Susan, I would suggest that perhaps the information presented on websites is not always current, correct or unbiased. I am studying at university, a batchelor degree in Health Science. We are learning anatomy and physiology, biochemistry, nutrition, nutritional biochemistry and human disease process/pathophysiology. The amount of protein I suggested is not based on someone's opinion, but on the way our bodies work and what our bodies need, physiologically. The text books, journal articles and research papers that we obtain our information from are all current scientific publications. I do not just beleive what I am told, and have been encouraged by the university to critically analyse all information presented, which I do. If you would like me to share some more information about what I have learned, I would be happy to give more information on the role of protein in our bodies and why it is so important. I am not recommending people go out and eat a lump of meat everyday, only that 30% of a healthy, balanced diet should be varied protein sources. I am sharing this information because Liz asked. Becky On 22/04/2008, at 3:15 AM, Susan Williams wrote: > Just an opinion, but you may want to do some research outside of what > is being taught at your school. 30% protein is incredibly high. Your > body has to work harder to get rid of the protein and studies have > shown that such high protein can actually lead to disease. Below are > a couple of links, but there is a lot of information out there about > the protein myth. > > http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/protein.htm > http://www.pcrm.org/health/veginfo/protein.html > > ~Susan > > On Apr 20, 2008, at 7:35 PM, Becky wrote: > > > Hi Liz, > > I am studying Herbal medicine and Nutrition at uni and we have been > > foccussing on protein this month! > > If you are vegan - tempeh (grated and added to spreads for toast) , > > Quinoa (can have as porrage for brekky) > > and if you are lacto-ovo veg, EGGS are the best source of protien, > > packed full of every essential amino acid (the building blocks of > > protein), boiled or poached is best. > > Cottage cheese/quark is also very high in protein and easy to > > incorporate into many meals. > > The ratios we are learning are 30/30/40 - protien/fats/carbs. I have > > started eating protein at breakfast everyday and have been > feeling so > > much more vital. And not experiencing the afternoon slump that I > > used to. > > Good luck Liz. > > Becky > > > > On 19/04/2008, at 10:02 AM, Liz Vergnault wrote: > > > > > This is kinda off topic, but I've learned so much from you all > that > > > I'm going to try another I've lost 3 babies this year. I'm not > > > satisfied with the Medical approach (long story), so I've started > > > acupuncture/Chinese medicine. The OMD has told me 3 times now that > > > my pulses are weak and I need more protein. I'm desperate for > > > breakfast ideas! Usually, I eat a piece of whole spelt toast with > > > peanut butter and a banana and hot herbal tea. Often, I find > myself > > > to bored with my options that I just skip meals altogether. I know > > > it's not healthy... > > > Liz > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 I have to agree with Susan. I think that too much protein in the diet can be bad. But, there are always 2+ sides to an argument, and you both have presented decent information. Thank you for representing your definitions. Cassie Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 Becky, Not to start an argument, and that is why I suggested further research on your own, but all research gets its funding from somewhere so it is all biased. No matter what we want to believe, University research is just as biased as something PETA puts out there. I can provide research that I have read from MDs, PhDs in nutritional science etc. that supports closer to a ratio of 80% carb, 10% fat and 10% protein. As far as the physiology of humans, we are primates - primates scientifically do not need 30% of their calories to come from protein. We are all individuals and have to decide what we want to believe. I guess I am just saying question things - just because someone is providing a textbook, a class, or had a PhD does not mean you have to just take the information as fact. ~Susan On Apr 21, 2008, at 8:40 PM, Becky wrote: > perhaps the information presented on websites is > not always current, correct or unbiased. I am studying at > university, a batchelor degree in Health Science. We are learning > anatomy and physiology, biochemistry, nutrition, nutritional > biochemistry and human disease process/pathophysiology. The amount of > protein I suggested is not based on someone's opinion, but on the way > our bodies work and what our bodies need, physiologically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 Becky, With all due respect, I am also studying at a university, one which is accredited by the Commission on Accreditation for Dietetics Education. I am in graduate school to become an MS RD and I have also taken those classes you listed and I would be interested in the scientific basis for stating >that 30% of a healthy, balanced diet should be varied protein sources. Thank you. Danita >Becky <beckstar >Apr 21, 2008 8:40 PM > >Re: kinda OT - need protein! > >Susan, >I would suggest that perhaps the information presented on websites is >not always current, correct or unbiased. I am studying at >university, a batchelor degree in Health Science. We are learning >anatomy and physiology, biochemistry, nutrition, nutritional >biochemistry and human disease process/pathophysiology. The amount of >protein I suggested is not based on someone's opinion, but on the way >our bodies work and what our bodies need, physiologically. The text >books, journal articles and research papers that we obtain our >information from are all current scientific publications. I do not >just beleive what I am told, and have been encouraged by the >university to critically analyse all information presented, which I >do. If you would like me to share some more information about what I >have learned, I would be happy to give more information on the role >of protein in our bodies and why it is so important. >I am not recommending people go out and eat a lump of meat everyday, >only that 30% of a healthy, balanced diet should be varied protein >sources. >I am sharing this information because Liz asked. >Becky > > >On 22/04/2008, at 3:15 AM, Susan Williams wrote: > >> Just an opinion, but you may want to do some research outside of what >> is being taught at your school. 30% protein is incredibly high. Your >> body has to work harder to get rid of the protein and studies have >> shown that such high protein can actually lead to disease. Below are >> a couple of links, but there is a lot of information out there about >> the protein myth. >> >> http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/protein.htm >> http://www.pcrm.org/health/veginfo/protein.html >> >> ~Susan >> >> On Apr 20, 2008, at 7:35 PM, Becky wrote: >> >> > Hi Liz, >> > I am studying Herbal medicine and Nutrition at uni and we have been >> > foccussing on protein this month! >> > If you are vegan - tempeh (grated and added to spreads for toast) , >> > Quinoa (can have as porrage for brekky) >> > and if you are lacto-ovo veg, EGGS are the best source of protien, >> > packed full of every essential amino acid (the building blocks of >> > protein), boiled or poached is best. >> > Cottage cheese/quark is also very high in protein and easy to >> > incorporate into many meals. >> > The ratios we are learning are 30/30/40 - protien/fats/carbs. I have >> > started eating protein at breakfast everyday and have been >> feeling so >> > much more vital. And not experiencing the afternoon slump that I >> > used to. >> > Good luck Liz. >> > Becky >> > >> > On 19/04/2008, at 10:02 AM, Liz Vergnault wrote: >> > >> > > This is kinda off topic, but I've learned so much from you all >> that >> > > I'm going to try another I've lost 3 babies this year. I'm not >> > > satisfied with the Medical approach (long story), so I've started >> > > acupuncture/Chinese medicine. The OMD has told me 3 times now that >> > > my pulses are weak and I need more protein. I'm desperate for >> > > breakfast ideas! Usually, I eat a piece of whole spelt toast with >> > > peanut butter and a banana and hot herbal tea. Often, I find >> myself >> > > to bored with my options that I just skip meals altogether. I know >> > > it's not healthy... >> > > Liz >> > > >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 I have read several books on nutrition - I do not claim to be an expert, but my logic is this: If the time when we need the most development is as a baby, I would think human breast milk would need to have the 30/30/40 ratio for a human baby to survive solely on breast milk. 4 oz. of human breast milk has about 80 calories - only 6% of that is from protein. Granted 55% is from fat, but as we get older we do not need so much fat. My question is how can we go from needing only 6% protein to 5 times that amount? I got my nutritional info from this site - but there are many others available that also show human milk has 6% protein. http://www.calorieking.com/foods/calories-in-milk-human-breast-milk- fluid_f-Y2lkPTM1NjkxJmJpZD0xJmZpZD0xMzQ0NzAmcGFyPQ.html ~Susan On Apr 22, 2008, at 9:15 AM, danitamark wrote: > that 30% of a healthy, balanced diet should be varied protein > sources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 HI everybody, My family and I, just become a vegan one month ago. We have a toddler of 19 month old, and now I am not giving him cow milk, just soymilk. But recently I have red some articles about soy that really concerned me. They say: Soy and soy products are high in phyitic acid (phytates) – an anti-nutritive compound, which in large amounts blocks the uptake of some essential elements such as calcium, magnesium, copper, iron and zinc. The soybean has one of the highest phytate levels of any grain or legume that has been studied, and the phytates in soy are highly resistant to normal phytate-reducing techniques, such as long, slow cooking.”(i) Phytic acid decreases more readily the absorption of zinc that that of the rest of the minerals. They do not recommend it for children, also, they talk about other soy-disadvantages. If you guys can help me with some good information about this, I would really appreciate it Hope to hear from you soon Rebeca danitamark wrote: Becky, With all due respect, I am also studying at a university, one which is accredited by the Commission on Accreditation for Dietetics Education. I am in graduate school to become an MS RD and I have also taken those classes you listed and I would be interested in the scientific basis for stating >that 30% of a healthy, balanced diet should be varied protein sources. Thank you. Danita >Becky <beckstar >Apr 21, 2008 8:40 PM > >Re: kinda OT - need protein! > >Susan, >I would suggest that perhaps the information presented on websites is >not always current, correct or unbiased. I am studying at >university, a batchelor degree in Health Science. We are learning >anatomy and physiology, biochemistry, nutrition, nutritional >biochemistry and human disease process/pathophysiology. The amount of >protein I suggested is not based on someone's opinion, but on the way >our bodies work and what our bodies need, physiologically. The text >books, journal articles and research papers that we obtain our >information from are all current scientific publications. I do not >just beleive what I am told, and have been encouraged by the >university to critically analyse all information presented, which I >do. If you would like me to share some more information about what I >have learned, I would be happy to give more information on the role >of protein in our bodies and why it is so important. >I am not recommending people go out and eat a lump of meat everyday, >only that 30% of a healthy, balanced diet should be varied protein >sources. >I am sharing this information because Liz asked. >Becky > > >On 22/04/2008, at 3:15 AM, Susan Williams wrote: > >> Just an opinion, but you may want to do some research outside of what >> is being taught at your school. 30% protein is incredibly high. Your >> body has to work harder to get rid of the protein and studies have >> shown that such high protein can actually lead to disease. Below are >> a couple of links, but there is a lot of information out there about >> the protein myth. >> >> http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/protein.htm >> http://www.pcrm.org/health/veginfo/protein.html >> >> ~Susan >> >> On Apr 20, 2008, at 7:35 PM, Becky wrote: >> >> > Hi Liz, >> > I am studying Herbal medicine and Nutrition at uni and we have been >> > foccussing on protein this month! >> > If you are vegan - tempeh (grated and added to spreads for toast) , >> > Quinoa (can have as porrage for brekky) >> > and if you are lacto-ovo veg, EGGS are the best source of protien, >> > packed full of every essential amino acid (the building blocks of >> > protein), boiled or poached is best. >> > Cottage cheese/quark is also very high in protein and easy to >> > incorporate into many meals. >> > The ratios we are learning are 30/30/40 - protien/fats/carbs. I have >> > started eating protein at breakfast everyday and have been >> feeling so >> > much more vital. And not experiencing the afternoon slump that I >> > used to. >> > Good luck Liz. >> > Becky >> > >> > On 19/04/2008, at 10:02 AM, Liz Vergnault wrote: >> > >> > > This is kinda off topic, but I've learned so much from you all >> that >> > > I'm going to try another I've lost 3 babies this year. I'm not >> > > satisfied with the Medical approach (long story), so I've started >> > > acupuncture/Chinese medicine. The OMD has told me 3 times now that >> > > my pulses are weak and I need more protein. I'm desperate for >> > > breakfast ideas! Usually, I eat a piece of whole spelt toast with >> > > peanut butter and a banana and hot herbal tea. Often, I find >> myself >> > > to bored with my options that I just skip meals altogether. I know >> > > it's not healthy... >> > > Liz >> > > >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 hm...i smell the WAPF. i could lecture you about this, but i'll let john robbins do it. (he rocks!) http://www.foodrevolution.org/what_about_soy.htm On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 2:01 PM, Rebeca Llasaca <rllasaca wrote: > HI everybody, > My family and I, just become a vegan one month ago. We have a toddler of > 19 month old, and now I am not giving him cow milk, just soymilk. But > recently I have red some articles about soy that really concerned me. They > say: Soy and soy products are high in phyitic acid (phytates) – an > anti-nutritive compound, which in large amounts blocks the uptake of some > essential elements such as calcium, magnesium, copper, iron and zinc. The > soybean has one of the highest phytate levels of any grain or legume that > has been studied, and the phytates in soy are highly resistant to normal > phytate-reducing techniques, such as long, slow cooking. " (i) Phytic acid > decreases more readily the absorption of zinc that that of the rest of the > minerals. They do not recommend it for children, also, they talk about other > soy-disadvantages. > > If you guys can help me with some good information about this, I would > really appreciate it > > Hope to hear from you soon > > Rebeca > > danitamark <danitamark%40earthlink.net> wrote: Becky, > > > With all due respect, I am also studying at a university, one which is > accredited by the Commission on Accreditation for Dietetics Education. I am > in graduate school to become an MS RD and I have also taken those classes > you listed and I would be interested in the scientific basis for stating > > >that 30% of a healthy, balanced diet should be varied protein > sources. > > Thank you. > Danita > > > >Becky <beckstar <beckstar%40dodo.com.au>> > >Apr 21, 2008 8:40 PM > > <%40> > >Re: kinda OT - need protein! > > > >Susan, > >I would suggest that perhaps the information presented on websites is > >not always current, correct or unbiased. I am studying at > >university, a batchelor degree in Health Science. We are learning > >anatomy and physiology, biochemistry, nutrition, nutritional > >biochemistry and human disease process/pathophysiology. The amount of > >protein I suggested is not based on someone's opinion, but on the way > >our bodies work and what our bodies need, physiologically. The text > >books, journal articles and research papers that we obtain our > >information from are all current scientific publications. I do not > >just beleive what I am told, and have been encouraged by the > >university to critically analyse all information presented, which I > >do. If you would like me to share some more information about what I > >have learned, I would be happy to give more information on the role > >of protein in our bodies and why it is so important. > >I am not recommending people go out and eat a lump of meat everyday, > >only that 30% of a healthy, balanced diet should be varied protein > >sources. > >I am sharing this information because Liz asked. > >Becky > > > > > >On 22/04/2008, at 3:15 AM, Susan Williams wrote: > > > >> Just an opinion, but you may want to do some research outside of what > >> is being taught at your school. 30% protein is incredibly high. Your > >> body has to work harder to get rid of the protein and studies have > >> shown that such high protein can actually lead to disease. Below are > >> a couple of links, but there is a lot of information out there about > >> the protein myth. > >> > >> http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/protein.htm > >> http://www.pcrm.org/health/veginfo/protein.html > >> > >> ~Susan > >> > >> On Apr 20, 2008, at 7:35 PM, Becky wrote: > >> > >> > Hi Liz, > >> > I am studying Herbal medicine and Nutrition at uni and we have been > >> > foccussing on protein this month! > >> > If you are vegan - tempeh (grated and added to spreads for toast) , > >> > Quinoa (can have as porrage for brekky) > >> > and if you are lacto-ovo veg, EGGS are the best source of protien, > >> > packed full of every essential amino acid (the building blocks of > >> > protein), boiled or poached is best. > >> > Cottage cheese/quark is also very high in protein and easy to > >> > incorporate into many meals. > >> > The ratios we are learning are 30/30/40 - protien/fats/carbs. I have > >> > started eating protein at breakfast everyday and have been > >> feeling so > >> > much more vital. And not experiencing the afternoon slump that I > >> > used to. > >> > Good luck Liz. > >> > Becky > >> > > >> > On 19/04/2008, at 10:02 AM, Liz Vergnault wrote: > >> > > >> > > This is kinda off topic, but I've learned so much from you all > >> that > >> > > I'm going to try another I've lost 3 babies this year. I'm not > >> > > satisfied with the Medical approach (long story), so I've started > >> > > acupuncture/Chinese medicine. The OMD has told me 3 times now that > >> > > my pulses are weak and I need more protein. I'm desperate for > >> > > breakfast ideas! Usually, I eat a piece of whole spelt toast with > >> > > peanut butter and a banana and hot herbal tea. Often, I find > >> myself > >> > > to bored with my options that I just skip meals altogether. I know > >> > > it's not healthy... > >> > > Liz > >> > > > >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2008 Report Share Posted April 23, 2008 That's fine. I was just trying to help. On 23/04/2008, at 2:18 AM, Susan Williams wrote: > I have read several books on nutrition - I do not claim to be an > expert, but my logic is this: If the time when we need the most > development is as a baby, I would think human breast milk would need > to have the 30/30/40 ratio for a human baby to survive solely on > breast milk. 4 oz. of human breast milk has about 80 calories - only > 6% of that is from protein. Granted 55% is from fat, but as we get > older we do not need so much fat. My question is how can we go from > needing only 6% protein to 5 times that amount? > > I got my nutritional info from this site - but there are many others > available that also show human milk has 6% protein. > http://www.calorieking.com/foods/calories-in-milk-human-breast-milk- > fluid_f-Y2lkPTM1NjkxJmJpZD0xJmZpZD0xMzQ0NzAmcGFyPQ.html > > ~Susan > > On Apr 22, 2008, at 9:15 AM, danitamark wrote: > > > that 30% of a healthy, balanced diet should be varied protein > > sources. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2008 Report Share Posted April 23, 2008 Becky, I owe you an apology. I do not mean to come off so aggressive and often do about this issue. My response about the 6% in breast milk was in response to someone else's post who had asked the source of the 30 protein, not in response to your post. I am sure it seemed like I was kicking the proverbial dead horse. We all have opinions, and I believe we are all lifelong learners. We are all trying to help each other and the last thing I want to do is isolate one of the members of this group. Please accept my apology. Susan , Becky <beckstar wrote: > > That's fine. I was just trying to help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2008 Report Share Posted April 23, 2008 You probably don't need the protien nearly as bad as you think! For adults, RDA reccomends .85g/Kilo, but WHO (World Health Organization) only reccomends .45g/Kilo. That means at 130lbs, I'd only need about 27g a day, which I get w/o even trying. WHO treats children who have been severely malnurished with 1-1.5g protien/kg. So my 3 year old, 29lb son would get 13-20g protien in a feeding camp if he was severely malnourished. That would be weaned down to 10-12g a day once he had regained health. Protien is in EVERYTHING, and if you start counting up all the protien in non- protieny foods (veggies and grains) you'll be suprised. The aminos are all you probably need to worry about, soy-free or not! , Rebeca Llasaca <rllasaca wrote: > > HI everybody, > My family and I, just become a vegan one month ago. We have a toddler of 19 month old, and now I am not giving him cow milk, just soymilk. But recently I have red some articles about soy that really concerned me. They say: Soy and soy products are high in phyitic acid (phytates) – an anti-nutritive compound, which in large amounts blocks the uptake of some essential elements such as calcium, magnesium, copper, iron and zinc. The soybean has one of the highest phytate levels of any grain or legume that has been studied, and the phytates in soy are highly resistant to normal phytate-reducing techniques, such as long, slow cooking. " (i) Phytic acid decreases more readily the absorption of zinc that that of the rest of the minerals. They do not recommend it for children, also, they talk about other soy-disadvantages. > > If you guys can help me with some good information about this, I would really appreciate it > > > > Hope to hear from you soon > > > > Rebeca > > > > danitamark wrote: Becky, > > With all due respect, I am also studying at a university, one which is accredited by the Commission on Accreditation for Dietetics Education. I am in graduate school to become an MS RD and I have also taken those classes you listed and I would be interested in the scientific basis for stating > > >that 30% of a healthy, balanced diet should be varied protein > sources. > > Thank you. > Danita > > > >Becky <beckstar > >Apr 21, 2008 8:40 PM > > > >Re: kinda OT - need protein! > > > >Susan, > >I would suggest that perhaps the information presented on websites is > >not always current, correct or unbiased. I am studying at > >university, a batchelor degree in Health Science. We are learning > >anatomy and physiology, biochemistry, nutrition, nutritional > >biochemistry and human disease process/pathophysiology. The amount of > >protein I suggested is not based on someone's opinion, but on the way > >our bodies work and what our bodies need, physiologically. The text > >books, journal articles and research papers that we obtain our > >information from are all current scientific publications. I do not > >just beleive what I am told, and have been encouraged by the > >university to critically analyse all information presented, which I > >do. If you would like me to share some more information about what I > >have learned, I would be happy to give more information on the role > >of protein in our bodies and why it is so important. > >I am not recommending people go out and eat a lump of meat everyday, > >only that 30% of a healthy, balanced diet should be varied protein > >sources. > >I am sharing this information because Liz asked. > >Becky > > > > > >On 22/04/2008, at 3:15 AM, Susan Williams wrote: > > > >> Just an opinion, but you may want to do some research outside of what > >> is being taught at your school. 30% protein is incredibly high. Your > >> body has to work harder to get rid of the protein and studies have > >> shown that such high protein can actually lead to disease. Below are > >> a couple of links, but there is a lot of information out there about > >> the protein myth. > >> > >> http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/protein.htm > >> http://www.pcrm.org/health/veginfo/protein.html > >> > >> ~Susan > >> > >> On Apr 20, 2008, at 7:35 PM, Becky wrote: > >> > >> > Hi Liz, > >> > I am studying Herbal medicine and Nutrition at uni and we have been > >> > foccussing on protein this month! > >> > If you are vegan - tempeh (grated and added to spreads for toast) , > >> > Quinoa (can have as porrage for brekky) > >> > and if you are lacto-ovo veg, EGGS are the best source of protien, > >> > packed full of every essential amino acid (the building blocks of > >> > protein), boiled or poached is best. > >> > Cottage cheese/quark is also very high in protein and easy to > >> > incorporate into many meals. > >> > The ratios we are learning are 30/30/40 - protien/fats/carbs. I have > >> > started eating protein at breakfast everyday and have been > >> feeling so > >> > much more vital. And not experiencing the afternoon slump that I > >> > used to. > >> > Good luck Liz. > >> > Becky > >> > > >> > On 19/04/2008, at 10:02 AM, Liz Vergnault wrote: > >> > > >> > > This is kinda off topic, but I've learned so much from you all > >> that > >> > > I'm going to try another I've lost 3 babies this year. I'm not > >> > > satisfied with the Medical approach (long story), so I've started > >> > > acupuncture/Chinese medicine. The OMD has told me 3 times now that > >> > > my pulses are weak and I need more protein. I'm desperate for > >> > > breakfast ideas! Usually, I eat a piece of whole spelt toast with > >> > > peanut butter and a banana and hot herbal tea. Often, I find > >> myself > >> > > to bored with my options that I just skip meals altogether. I know > >> > > it's not healthy... > >> > > Liz > >> > > > >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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