Vaccinations and Immunizations...

[Guest guest]

Jamie,

 

We do not vaccinate because I believe true to my heart and soul that

they are more harm than good. In response to your question about

what if there is an outbreak of measles, small pox, etc.

Vaccinations do not guarantee that your child will not get the

disease. And most vaccinations " wear-off " so to speak, which is why

you have to repeatedly get certain vax.

 

It is good that you are doing research because no one can make this

decision for you. You have to go with what you think is protecting

your child. Have you read the articles and information on

www.nvic.org? It is a great resource. What helped us make the

decision was also comparing the number of vaccine related injuries

and deaths as reported by the CDC to the number of hospitalizations

or deaths from the diseases with vax. When we did our comparison,

there were only 3 deaths from the actual illnesses (over a 1 year

period), and there were over 60,000 reports of injuries, and over

1,000 reports of death from the CDC after vax (over that same one

year period). The CDC puts a disclaimer that there is no proof that

the death or injury is caused by the vax - there is no " proof, " but

they are required to track it. What was the clincher for us was when

my son was 6 mos old, DH came home from work and told me that one of

his coworkers nephew (also 6 mos) had died 2 days ago and it was

within 24 hours of getting the standard 6 mos vaccines.

 

Also, most of the magazines you are reading are completely funded by

the advertisers - who are predominately pharmaceutical companies and

formula companies (which many formulas are actually created by

pharmaceutical companies.) Those magazines would go out of business

if they lost the advertising dollars from someone like abbot labs, or

merck or any other company that make vax or formula.

 

HTH

~Susan

 

 

On Apr 23, 2008, at 4:49 PM, lilbludaisy wrote:

 

> Am I making the right decision? What

> if their is an outbreak of measles or small pox or whatever else they

> got vaccinations for these days? I don't know what to think and it

> worries me.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

hi jamie,

 

this is such a difficult issue! you're sure to get a wide range of equally

valid points, so i'll just share my experiences with you.

 

first of all, you can read about our decision here:

 

http://www.onthespiral.blogspot.com/2007/09/here-is-no-why.html

 

that decision was not easy for us. i examined every piece of evidence i

could find on the issue and just ended up more confused. i had a lot of

support from my natural parenting group to avoid them if i wished, and even

more support to delay or be selective, but that was just a handful of

families compared to, you know, the mainstream, which is enormous and

deafening.

 

my son received one set of vaxes, at three months. at that time, i was

still studying, and trying to figure out what to do, and i was bullied into

it by the pediatrician, who actually yelled at me that my son would probably

die if i didn't do it. i was a brand-new mother, and i was feeling my way

through parenting without having any support or time to research; i was

essentially doing attachment parenting without knowing such a thing existed

in theory, and being beat up for it right and left. so while now, i would

never let such a thing happen, back then i didn't have the confidence to say

no. i allowed the ped. to vax my son with three or four different

injections, and it was so traumatic, we both left crying. i vowed that i

would never make a decision like that under pressure again and that i would

never allow someone to treat me that way when it came to my child's care.

so i buckled down on studying out the issue, and ultimately, our son never

received another set of vaxes. when my daughter came, she was never vaxed

either.

 

on this issue i'm not sure if there is a specifically right or wrong

decision. i think every child and circumstance needs to be considered

individually. when you look at the statistics, it seems that for most of

these diseases, the risk of getting the disease closely matches the risk of

having an adverse reaction to the vaccine. in both cases, the number is so

small as to barely register statistically. for example, when was the last

time you heard of an " outbreak " of diphtheria? and do you know anyone in

your life who had a child die or become disabled because of a vaccine? both

of these conditions are extremely rare.

 

what is not as rare, however, are chronic illness, childhood cancer, and

allergies, all of which have been connected to rising vaccine use. i

considered the likelihood of one of these problems targeting my children and

considered them a greater risk than measles or mumps. also, when i learned

the specifics of how vaccinations work, i was very disturbed and decided

that i didn't want that sort of effect on my children's immune system.

 

another issue is how afraid you are of your child getting sick. some

parents are really petrified of this. these are the parents who use

antibacterial everything, not realizing that they are contributing to the

problem. i've never been afraid of my kids getting sick. in fact, i think

it's very healthy and positive for my kids to get sick. and even in this

issue, there are other methods of true prevention that don't involve an

injection of something very severe that contains extremely questionable

ingredients, such as formaldehyde and human embryonic tissue.

 

here in utah, we have outbreaks of some of these diseases from time to time,

and this is primarily because of the polygamist compounds to the north and

south that do not vaccinate. this has caused me some cognitive dissonance,

wondering if it's really essential that we vaccinate, because of herd

immunity, because obviously things don't work out so well in these

communities where they don't vaccinate (the amish are another one - didn't

one of those communities even have polio recently?). but then i consider

the many other issues at stake here with these communities, such as their

insularity, questionable hygiene practices, lacking nutrition, inbreeding

that makes them more susceptible to disease, and so on, and i don't think

many of those apply to us or most of the people we know.

 

however, when these outbreaks occur - almost always pertussis - i don't

worry for my own children's safety. my children are extremely healthy due

to diet, exercise, hygiene and exposure to illness. they don't spend all

day in the company of many other children in a daycare setting, which is

probably the most disease-ridden place you can put your child. and if they

did come down with a condition like pertussis, it's not a death sentence.

almost none of the diseases we vaccinate for cause certain death. polio can

be a serious problem, but it's been almost entirely eradicated in the west.

it may still come in from immigrants or international visitors, but the risk

is statistically insignificant.

 

my kids had rotavirus last summer, which they caught from a friend. a

vaccination is available for this disease. it was really hard on my kids,

and me. they produced about 25 poopy diapers a day between them and my son

also vomited a great deal. my son lost a few pounds and was weak for a few

weeks. it took about a month for them to get back to normal. i worked very

hard to replenish the fluid loss and to keep them comfortable during that

time. they recovered, my son gained the weight back very quickly, and they

have been normal ever since. at the time, he was about 2 1/2 and my

daughter was 8 months old. they survived and i even feel that it

strengthened both of their systems. this experience strengthened my resolve

regarding the lack of necessity for vaccinations for healthy children.

 

the only vax we seriously considered was the one for meningitis. ultimately

we decided against it. but many parents that i know who abstain almost

entirely from vaxes still seriously consider that one.

 

i don't know if this will be helpful for you or not. as to the question of

whether you're making the right decision, only you can know that for

yourself. you know your children, you know your lifestyle, you can probably

assess your risk pretty well. my children are now 3 and almost 18 months

and i never worry about them not being vaccinated anymore. almost all of

those diseases would primarily be a serious risk in infancy. luckily, most

of us keep our infants close to home during the period of strongest risk

(not only risk of those diseases, but of colds, RSV, etc.).

 

good luck with your choice.

 

chandelle

 

 

On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 2:49 PM, lilbludaisy <lilbludaisies wrote:

 

> Hi all!

>

> I don't know if this has been discussed before or not, but I am

> SOOOOOO confused about immunizations, vaccinations, etc. I have read

> the basis of both views (being immunized or not) and I still do not

> know what to believe. Can anyone give me some input on the subject?

> I spoke with my chiropractor about it and none of his kids are

> immunized. He was telling me about how they are bred and grown as

> well as some of the ingredients in them. I was disgusted! Then

> there are the views I have been reading from Babytalk, Parenting,

> Parents, and Wonder Time (I know, I should be subscribing to

> Mothering-Natural Family Living instead, which is on my list of

> thyings to do, lol) and they keep reassuring the reader that all this

> talk aagainst immunizations is bull. My son is 15 months old and has

> not been immunized yet due to the fact that obviously I was leaning

> more toward being against it. Am I making the right decision? What

> if their is an outbreak of measles or small pox or whatever else they

> got vaccinations for these days? I don't know what to think and it

> worries me. Thanks for your help! I've learned so much already from

> reading all your posts. I appreciate it!

>

> Jamie

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

" religion is not based on evidence. if it were, it would be called science,

and no one would believe in it. "

 

~stephen colbert

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

The whole vaccination question is so difficult. All of our three

girls have been vaccinated because it is required by the schools.

They have all been fine with really no reactions to them. But still I

feel so much guilt over it - not knowing if I'm doing the right

thing. My youngest just had her six months shots last week and my

middle daughter had her last 4/5 year old shots.

I did ask the doctor once about mercury in the shots and he told me

that they don't have mercury in them anymore and then gave me a bunch

of info on them. He was nice enough, but maybe seemed slightly

annoyed.

I guess I just don't feel like I have much choice. Maybe it would be

different if I were homeschooling the girls.

 

Jill

 

, Susan Williams <virgo.vegan

wrote:

>

> Jamie,

>

> We do not vaccinate because I believe true to my heart and soul

that

> they are more harm than good. In response to your question about

> what if there is an outbreak of measles, small pox, etc.

> Vaccinations do not guarantee that your child will not get the

> disease. And most vaccinations " wear-off " so to speak, which is

why

> you have to repeatedly get certain vax.

>

> It is good that you are doing research because no one can make

this

> decision for you. You have to go with what you think is

protecting

> your child. Have you read the articles and information on

> www.nvic.org? It is a great resource. What helped us make the

> decision was also comparing the number of vaccine related injuries

> and deaths as reported by the CDC to the number of

hospitalizations

> or deaths from the diseases with vax. When we did our comparison,

> there were only 3 deaths from the actual illnesses (over a 1 year

> period), and there were over 60,000 reports of injuries, and over

> 1,000 reports of death from the CDC after vax (over that same one

> year period). The CDC puts a disclaimer that there is no proof

that

> the death or injury is caused by the vax - there is no " proof, "

but

> they are required to track it. What was the clincher for us was

when

> my son was 6 mos old, DH came home from work and told me that one

of

> his coworkers nephew (also 6 mos) had died 2 days ago and it was

> within 24 hours of getting the standard 6 mos vaccines.

>

> Also, most of the magazines you are reading are completely funded

by

> the advertisers - who are predominately pharmaceutical companies

and

> formula companies (which many formulas are actually created by

> pharmaceutical companies.) Those magazines would go out of

business

> if they lost the advertising dollars from someone like abbot labs,

or

> merck or any other company that make vax or formula.

>

> HTH

> ~Susan

>

>

> On Apr 23, 2008, at 4:49 PM, lilbludaisy wrote:

>

> > Am I making the right decision? What

> > if their is an outbreak of measles or small pox or whatever else

they

> > got vaccinations for these days? I don't know what to think and it

> > worries me.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Jamie,

 

I have a 12 year now. Like you, I read everything I could about vaccines and

had endless conversations with our family doctors. Based partly on something

written by Andrew Weil, we choose to vaccinate. We started late, did one shot

at a time, had special ordered (not always covered by insurance) preservative

free vaccines, and skipped chicken pox. Fortunately, we have a healthy kid with

a normal immune system; if we did not, we may have gone a different route.

 

Now we are going back and forth on Gardasil (the HPV vaccine).

 

Robin

 

lilbludaisy <lilbludaisies wrote:

Hi all!

 

I don't know if this has been discussed before or not, but I am

SOOOOOO confused about immunizations, vaccinations, etc. I have read

the basis of both views (being immunized or not) and I still do not

know what to believe. Can anyone give me some input on the subject?

I spoke with my chiropractor about it and none of his kids are

immunized. He was telling me about how they are bred and grown as

well as some of the ingredients in them. I was disgusted! Then

there are the views I have been reading from Babytalk, Parenting,

Parents, and Wonder Time (I know, I should be subscribing to

Mothering-Natural Family Living instead, which is on my list of

thyings to do, lol) and they keep reassuring the reader that all this

talk aagainst immunizations is bull. My son is 15 months old and has

not been immunized yet due to the fact that obviously I was leaning

more toward being against it. Am I making the right decision? What

if their is an outbreak of measles or small pox or whatever else they

got vaccinations for these days? I don't know what to think and it

worries me. Thanks for your help! I've learned so much already from

reading all your posts. I appreciate it!

 

Jamie

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

 

 

[Guest guest]

jill, just so you know, almost every state has exemptions for vaccinations.

 

 

http://www.nvic.org/state-site/state-exemptions.htm

 

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 9:18 AM, jillben2008 <jillben2008 wrote:

 

> The whole vaccination question is so difficult. All of our three

> girls have been vaccinated because it is required by the schools.

> They have all been fine with really no reactions to them. But still I

> feel so much guilt over it - not knowing if I'm doing the right

> thing. My youngest just had her six months shots last week and my

> middle daughter had her last 4/5 year old shots.

> I did ask the doctor once about mercury in the shots and he told me

> that they don't have mercury in them anymore and then gave me a bunch

> of info on them. He was nice enough, but maybe seemed slightly

> annoyed.

> I guess I just don't feel like I have much choice. Maybe it would be

> different if I were homeschooling the girls.

>

> Jill

>

> <%40>, Susan

> Williams <virgo.vegan

> wrote:

>

> >

> > Jamie,

> >

> > We do not vaccinate because I believe true to my heart and soul

> that

> > they are more harm than good. In response to your question about

> > what if there is an outbreak of measles, small pox, etc.

> > Vaccinations do not guarantee that your child will not get the

> > disease. And most vaccinations " wear-off " so to speak, which is

> why

> > you have to repeatedly get certain vax.

> >

> > It is good that you are doing research because no one can make

> this

> > decision for you. You have to go with what you think is

> protecting

> > your child. Have you read the articles and information on

> > www.nvic.org? It is a great resource. What helped us make the

> > decision was also comparing the number of vaccine related injuries

> > and deaths as reported by the CDC to the number of

> hospitalizations

> > or deaths from the diseases with vax. When we did our comparison,

> > there were only 3 deaths from the actual illnesses (over a 1 year

> > period), and there were over 60,000 reports of injuries, and over

> > 1,000 reports of death from the CDC after vax (over that same one

> > year period). The CDC puts a disclaimer that there is no proof

> that

> > the death or injury is caused by the vax - there is no " proof, "

> but

> > they are required to track it. What was the clincher for us was

> when

> > my son was 6 mos old, DH came home from work and told me that one

> of

> > his coworkers nephew (also 6 mos) had died 2 days ago and it was

> > within 24 hours of getting the standard 6 mos vaccines.

> >

> > Also, most of the magazines you are reading are completely funded

> by

> > the advertisers - who are predominately pharmaceutical companies

> and

> > formula companies (which many formulas are actually created by

> > pharmaceutical companies.) Those magazines would go out of

> business

> > if they lost the advertising dollars from someone like abbot labs,

> or

> > merck or any other company that make vax or formula.

> >

> > HTH

> > ~Susan

> >

> >

> > On Apr 23, 2008, at 4:49 PM, lilbludaisy wrote:

> >

> > > Am I making the right decision? What

> > > if their is an outbreak of measles or small pox or whatever else

> they

> > > got vaccinations for these days? I don't know what to think and it

> > > worries me.

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

It depends on what you believe. Some people believe in Pasteur's work - called

Germ Theory - that germs are standing right outside your body just waiting for

their chance to get in. They'll get us one way or another. Others, myself

included, give more credence to Bechamp's work - cellular theory - that the

human body is strong and resilient and generally able to fight off or recover

from just about everything in nature provided it is already operating at optimal

health. We have chosen not to vaccinate for this reason, as well as where

vaccines come from and a general distrust of the regulating agencies. My

daughter was breastfed for 26 months, never had formula, didn't start solids

until after 6 months, eats a whole foods diet, and has not been in a childcare

setting. All of these things also factored into our decision.I don't know how

much info you want, but you can order a back issue of Mothering that addresses

some of our concerns. Many

vaccines are fast-tracked for FDA approval, only to be pulled a few years later

when trouble is discovered. Check out the link below for more info on Pasteur

vs Bechamp.

http://www.newtreatments.org/doc.php/WisdomExperience/81 As long as you feel

like you are fully informed, there is not a right or wrong answer. Many

families choose to wait and /or space vaccines out until the immune system is

more mature. In Japan, children do not receive their first immunizations until

after age 2. I was born in 1975, and I got 7 shots before the age of 2. Sme

were the traditional cocktails - DPT, MMR, etc, but none of the super vaccines

they use now. My daughter was born in 2006, and if I had followed the CDC

recommendations, she would have had 22 shots by now. I think others (Rotavirus

& Hep A) have been added to the mix since she was born. Many of the things a

child would be at risk for as far as an outbreak at school - Measles, Mumps,

Chickenpox - are normal childhood illnesses that are relatively mild and do not

often have complications. Complications are severe, though and can include

encephalitis, meningitis, and death.

Check out

http://www.amazon.com/What-Doctor-About-Childrens-Vaccinations/dp/0446677078 and

http://www.amazon.com/Evidence-Harm-Vaccines-Epidemic-Controversy/dp/B00150D6M8/\

ref=pd_sim_b_img_4 and

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0316017507/ref=pd_cp_b_1?pf_rd_p=317711001 & pf_r\

d_s=center-41 & pf_rd_t=201 & pf_rd_i=B00150D6M8 & pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER & pf_rd_r=163BD\

KARSW97W5N8AF5Dand

http://www.amazon.com/Raise-Healthy-Child-Spite-Doctor/dp/0345342763/ref=pd_sim_\

b_img_4

and of course my favorite, Disease Proof Your Child by Dr. Joel Fuhrman. Good

luck!

Liz

 

 

 

 

lilbludaisy <lilbludaisies

 

Wednesday, April 23, 2008 1:49:39 PM

Vaccinations and Immunizations...

 

Hi all!

 

I don't know if this has been discussed before or not, but I am

SOOOOOO confused about immunizations, vaccinations, etc. I have read

the basis of both views (being immunized or not) and I still do not

know what to believe. Can anyone give me some input on the subject?

I spoke with my chiropractor about it and none of his kids are

immunized. He was telling me about how they are bred and grown as

well as some of the ingredients in them. I was disgusted! Then

there are the views I have been reading from Babytalk, Parenting,

Parents, and Wonder Time (I know, I should be subscribing to

Mothering-Natural Family Living instead, which is on my list of

thyings to do, lol) and they keep reassuring the reader that all this

talk aagainst immunizations is bull. My son is 15 months old and has

not been immunized yet due to the fact that obviously I was leaning

more toward being against it. Am I making the right decision? What

if their is an outbreak of measles or small pox or whatever else they

got vaccinations for these days? I don't know what to think and it

worries me. Thanks for your help! I've learned so much already from

reading all your posts. I appreciate it!

 

Jamie

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jill,

 

You do have a choice - every state has some sort of exemption

(medical, philosophical or religious). Just check your state

requirements. Our son is in a private daycare that honors the state

exemptions (public schools have to honor exemptions, but private

sector can choose to honor exemptions.) We have a religious

exemption - and the state does not have the right to ask for proof of

your religion or the tenant that says you should not vax.

 

You may want to check out this site for more information: http://

www.nvic.org/state-site/state-exemptions.htm

 

~Susan

 

 

On Apr 24, 2008, at 11:18 AM, jillben2008 wrote:

 

> I guess I just don't feel like I have much choice. Maybe it would be

> different if I were homeschooling the girls.

>

> Jill

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I don't want to get into this unsolvable debate, but I'll play " devil's

advocate " just to be fair since I don't think it's an all or nothing decision-

 

>there were only 3 deaths from the actual illnesses (over a 1 year

>period)

 

this is most likely because so many millions are vaccinated and so they do not

get or pass on the disease- not because these diseases are not life threatening

to babies and young children. Those that are not vaccinated often benefit from

the fact that they are usually surrounded by children/society that are

vaccinated.

 

 

>over 60,000 reports of injuries, and over 1,000 reports of death from the CDC

after vax

 

Not to dismiss the possibility that real harm has occurred to some children,

" injuries " may include relatively benign events that just happen to occur

afterwards and may or may not be caused by it, but get recorded none the less.

injuries could include headaches, rashes, whelts, fever, vomiting etc. some of

which may be totally unrelated - but the timing is suspicious.

 

likewise, it is a tragedy when a baby dies, but sometimes it occurs for other

unknown reasons that may or may not be linked to a vacc. But again, the timing

is suspicious and it's easy to conclude a link when one has not been

definitively made.

 

It is my understanding that the rate of autism has not declined since thimerasol

was removed from vacc's, as would have been expected if there was a definite

link. Regardless, it's always a good idea to remove mercury from our immediate

environment.

 

The age that children are vacc is often for public health reasons, not for

individual benefits. Some of the vacc's are for childhood diseases and you may

or may not choose any or all for your baby, whether newborn or prior to more

social exposure as an older baby.

 

Some parents wait until their children are older and space out immunizations

over a longer period of time so as not to overwhelm their immune systems at a

young age or in a short time.

 

Hepatitis B is sexually transmitted and for the convenience of the public health

prevention efforts they " catch em while you can " when they are babies because

most parents/doctors would forget to do it in adolescence/teen years.

 

D

[Guest guest]

My grandmother came to live with our family in 1980 when she could no longer

take care of herself. She had managed to raise 6 kids without being able to

walk. But the older she got the harder it was to manage. She got this horrible

disease (polio) as a baby and had to live her life without being able to walk.

As a child I got to see my grandmother live with the effects of a disease that

there were no vaccinations against in 1907 when she contracted polio. I've

always been pro-vaccination. Now I don't think that things like flu shots are

neccessary. But for crippling and life-threatening illness I absolutely want my

child protected.

Renee

 

Jacqueline Bodnar <jb wrote:

Hi Jamie,

 

Vaccinations are a confusing topic... I can understand parents going

either way with it. I was really on the fence before we had our

daughter. When she was born I asked the pediatrician about it. His

response was that most people that don't vaccinate have never seen a

child die from something that could have been prevented with a vaccine.

He said he has seen it happen and said that the benefits far outweigh

any risks. So we chose to vaccinate and we have now with both children.

I can say that I am still not comfortable with it and sometimes still

question whether I should do it. I continue to do it because I feel like

if they got something life-threatening that could have been prevented

that I would never forgive myself for not vaccinating. But I am very

much against how many shots they give kids today and I think that more

independent studies need to be done to see if any ingredients are

harming the kids. I do vaccinate, but cringe every time and completely

understand why some parents do. It's a tough call, we all want what is

best for our kids and I don't think there is a right or wrong answer on

this topic. It's what you can live with... I live with my decision, but

I'm not that comfortable with it. But I don't know how comfortable I'd

be with the alternative, especially if they got something... ugh. When

it comes down to it I would say I'm more against vaccinations than for

them. But I still give them to the kids simply because of what that

pediatrician said that sticks in my brain. :-)

 

Jacqueline

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Jamie,

 

I too questioned vaccinations and what they are all about. I started

looking after my one-year-old had her first set of shots. There was

just something about the idea that did not sit right in my stomach.

Then of course I saw Jenny McArthy on Oprah and that reaffirmed that

I needed to do some research. There was one book that I read that

totally broke everything down and that I recommend reading. It

really depends on your belief system whether or not you would like

to read this book. The author is a Christian and literally goes back

to the way that God created our bodies and shows why we do not need

vaccinations. God would not have created a body to only halfway

protect us. The author, Michael Dye, is part of a group called

Hallelujah Acres and they are extreme vegan. They base their diet on

Genesis and how God created us to eat in the garden before sin. The

book is called " Vaccinations: Deception and Tragedy. " If you really

are feeding your child a vegetarian or vegan diet, they are sooo

much healthier than most children and their bodies are functioning

without all that crap they put in processed foods and meats and

dairy. It basically breaks down to cell formation. The book is

amazing and easy to read. You are making the most amazing decision

for your children and their health. There is no point is spending

all of that time and money in making sure there are no chemicals in

your families food and then turning around and injecting them with

it at the doctor. A huge percentage of what doctor's make comes from

vaccinating, so they are of course going to push you to do that. If

you even read the label on the container the vaccines comes in, it

states all of the side effects and doctors won't even tell you about

it. And there definently are exemptions in all states except two.

You would need to look for your personal state. I hope that this

helps. It definently is a touchy subject for some people but you are

doing the right thing.

[Guest guest]

Hi,

My name is Hannah. Kudos for taking this decision making into your own

hands--and for following through with actually trying to make a good one! I have

one son who I have not vaccinated (he did actually get a couple shots once, and

now I forget what they were, but they were not his complete shots for his age,

nor did we ever do the follow-up shots if there were any)...When my sister was

almost two years old in the early nineties, and too young for the vaccine, she

did nearly die of measles, which has made my mother, a midwife, very in favor of

vaccines, and you might think it would make me in favor as well. I am not

adamantly opposed to vaccines, I genuinely think that they have significantly

contributed to the decline in communicable illnesses in this country--and I'm

extremely grateful for their availability. I think that in a sense there is no

right or wrong answer on this, and we all must make are own choice. My son is

three and at some point I may reconsider getting him vaccinated. But as of right

now I feel very comfortable not vaccinating him for the main reason that he

still breastfeeds. Honestly, I think that if your child does not breastfeed, you

really should get them vaccinated, because the risks for getting a disease are

higher, and your means of preventing the disease, comforting and healing your

child if they get it, are greatly diminished. Also, my son is with me through

most hours of every day, therefore he has fewer opportunities to pick up

anything than other kids might--we do on the other hand use public

transportation extensively, and thus have more exposure than many kids do. Also

with my son I try to not be too germ-phobic--I want him to have as tough of an

immune system as possible, and so my motto when it comes to his exposure to

germs is practically that if it doesn't kill him, it will make him stronger. So,

while we wash our food, and avoid the bathroom as a playroom, I don't freak out

about stuff, and I don't wash anything with bleach. I do think that on the plus

side vaccines work in harmony with our immune systems (although others would

contest this)--which is that if our bodies get a small amount of a disease, they

learn how to identify, contain and treat it before it multiplies to overwhelming

proportions. I think that in making your decision look at the evidence, as other

people have suggested, consider the actually effectiveness of the vaccines, the

harm they have done. Consider the evidence as it applies to everyone, and then

consider the risks and benefits as they apply to your individual family and

lifestyle--which includes things like I said--do you practice extended

breastfeeding, do your kids have opportunities to breastfeed throughout the day,

or only once per day, do your kids have a lot of opportunities for exposure

(although it may just take one person to make your whole family sick), does your

family have a history or autism or other sensitivity to vaccines (I mean it's

speculation--but maybe people who got autism from the vaccines got it because

the mercury or the other ingredients in the vaccine (perhaps the combination of

Measles Mumps and Rubella being together is disastrous) triggered a dormant

predisposition--also I think boys have more autism related vaccine responses

than girls)? Do you travel outside of the country regularly? I think once the

decision has been made, one way or the other, it's not necessarily cut and dry.

If you choose not to vaccine--there are safer ways to do it than others--like

breastfeeding, maximizing exposure to safe germs, having a healthy lifestyle

(diet and exercise) and so forth, and reconsidering the decision as your

lifestyles change. If you lean towards vaccination, there are safer ways to do

it than others--for example you can merely exclude the vaccines that contain the

preservative mercury. Not all vaccines contain mercury, as I understand (but

then you may want to question what they are using as a preservative instead).

You may want to avoid the vaccines that are associated with autism or other risk

factors, you can also delay vaccination. Perhaps as kids get older, their bodies

can more easily handle the possible side affects (or can handle the diseases

better). Aviva Jill Romm has a good book on vaccines. If you do an Amazon.com

search you can find other titles. Also a side note--I am vaccinated and have no

aversion to getting myself vaccinated because I have a personal history of not

responding badly to vaccines. Another thing is that while at three years old my

son has had an almost entirely healthy childhood, he did get a cold once, and he

even got croup once. I sometimes ask myself if breastfeeding/his natural

immunity did not protect from these things, how will they protect him in the

face of more danger?

 

I think for one think you should not look at all vaccines a equal--they each

have risk factors and benefits--and do not look at all potential vaccine

recipients as equal--we each have our unique strengths and vulnerabilities. And

then from here you just have to look deep into your heart and dare I say pray

that you are making the right decision.

I hope this was helpful!

 

-Hannah

 

 

 

: jb: Thu, 24 Apr

2008 09:07:08 -0700RE: Vaccinations and Immunizations...

 

 

 

 

Hi Jamie,Vaccinations are a confusing topic... I can understand parents

goingeither way with it. I was really on the fence before we had ourdaughter.

When she was born I asked the pediatrician about it. Hisresponse was that most

people that don't vaccinate have never seen achild die from something that could

have been prevented with a vaccine.He said he has seen it happen and said that

the benefits far outweighany risks. So we chose to vaccinate and we have now

with both children.I can say that I am still not comfortable with it and

sometimes stillquestion whether I should do it. I continue to do it because I

feel likeif they got something life-threatening that could have been

preventedthat I would never forgive myself for not vaccinating. But I am

verymuch against how many shots they give kids today and I think that

moreindependent studies need to be done to see if any ingredients areharming the

kids. I do vaccinate, but cringe every time and completelyunderstand why some

parents do. It's a tough call, we all want what isbest for our kids and I don't

think there is a right or wrong answer onthis topic. It's what you can live

with... I live with my decision, butI'm not that comfortable with it. But I

don't know how comfortable I'dbe with the alternative, especially if they got

something... ugh. Whenit comes down to it I would say I'm more against

vaccinations than forthem. But I still give them to the kids simply because of

what thatpediatrician said that sticks in my brain. :-)Jacqueline

 

 

 

 

 

 

_______________

Back to work after baby–how do you know when you’re ready?

http://lifestyle.msn.com/familyandparenting/articleNW.aspx?cp-documentid=5797498\

& ocid=T067MSN40A0701A

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi there, Not sure which state you live in but here in Va. in order to

go to school my girls just had to have an immunization exemption form

filled out by me. They only went to school for a little while and

then we pulled them out to homeschool but they were completely legal

in the system for a while:) Shari

 

On 4/24/08, jillben2008 <jillben2008 wrote:

> The whole vaccination question is so difficult. All of our three

> girls have been vaccinated because it is required by the schools.

> They have all been fine with really no reactions to them. But still I

> feel so much guilt over it - not knowing if I'm doing the right

> thing. My youngest just had her six months shots last week and my

> middle daughter had her last 4/5 year old shots.

> I did ask the doctor once about mercury in the shots and he told me

> that they don't have mercury in them anymore and then gave me a bunch

> of info on them. He was nice enough, but maybe seemed slightly

> annoyed.

> I guess I just don't feel like I have much choice. Maybe it would be

> different if I were homeschooling the girls.

>

> Jill

>

> , Susan Williams <virgo.vegan

> wrote:

> >

> > Jamie,

> >

> > We do not vaccinate because I believe true to my heart and soul

> that

> > they are more harm than good. In response to your question about

> > what if there is an outbreak of measles, small pox, etc.

> > Vaccinations do not guarantee that your child will not get the

> > disease. And most vaccinations " wear-off " so to speak, which is

> why

> > you have to repeatedly get certain vax.

> >

> > It is good that you are doing research because no one can make

> this

> > decision for you. You have to go with what you think is

> protecting

> > your child. Have you read the articles and information on

> > www.nvic.org? It is a great resource. What helped us make the

> > decision was also comparing the number of vaccine related injuries

> > and deaths as reported by the CDC to the number of

> hospitalizations

> > or deaths from the diseases with vax. When we did our comparison,

> > there were only 3 deaths from the actual illnesses (over a 1 year

> > period), and there were over 60,000 reports of injuries, and over

> > 1,000 reports of death from the CDC after vax (over that same one

> > year period). The CDC puts a disclaimer that there is no proof

> that

> > the death or injury is caused by the vax - there is no " proof, "

> but

> > they are required to track it. What was the clincher for us was

> when

> > my son was 6 mos old, DH came home from work and told me that one

> of

> > his coworkers nephew (also 6 mos) had died 2 days ago and it was

> > within 24 hours of getting the standard 6 mos vaccines.

> >

> > Also, most of the magazines you are reading are completely funded

> by

> > the advertisers - who are predominately pharmaceutical companies

> and

> > formula companies (which many formulas are actually created by

> > pharmaceutical companies.) Those magazines would go out of

> business

> > if they lost the advertising dollars from someone like abbot labs,

> or

> > merck or any other company that make vax or formula.

> >

> > HTH

> > ~Susan

> >

> >

> > On Apr 23, 2008, at 4:49 PM, lilbludaisy wrote:

> >

> > > Am I making the right decision? What

> > > if their is an outbreak of measles or small pox or whatever else

> they

> > > got vaccinations for these days? I don't know what to think and it

> > > worries me.

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Bobby Kennedy jr. is (among other things) and activist on this issue. Here is a

link to a great article that he could only get published in Rolling Stone:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/7395411/deadly_immunity/

 

 

 

danitamark wrote:

I don't want to get into this unsolvable debate, but I'll play

" devil's advocate " just to be fair since I don't think it's an all or nothing

decision-

 

>there were only 3 deaths from the actual illnesses (over a 1 year

>period)

 

this is most likely because so many millions are vaccinated and so they do not

get or pass on the disease- not because these diseases are not life threatening

to babies and young children. Those that are not vaccinated often benefit from

the fact that they are usually surrounded by children/society that are

vaccinated.

 

>over 60,000 reports of injuries, and over 1,000 reports of death from the CDC

after vax

 

Not to dismiss the possibility that real harm has occurred to some children,

" injuries " may include relatively benign events that just happen to occur

afterwards and may or may not be caused by it, but get recorded none the less.

injuries could include headaches, rashes, whelts, fever, vomiting etc. some of

which may be totally unrelated - but the timing is suspicious.

 

likewise, it is a tragedy when a baby dies, but sometimes it occurs for other

unknown reasons that may or may not be linked to a vacc. But again, the timing

is suspicious and it's easy to conclude a link when one has not been

definitively made.

 

It is my understanding that the rate of autism has not declined since thimerasol

was removed from vacc's, as would have been expected if there was a definite

link. Regardless, it's always a good idea to remove mercury from our immediate

environment.

 

The age that children are vacc is often for public health reasons, not for

individual benefits. Some of the vacc's are for childhood diseases and you may

or may not choose any or all for your baby, whether newborn or prior to more

social exposure as an older baby.

 

Some parents wait until their children are older and space out immunizations

over a longer period of time so as not to overwhelm their immune systems at a

young age or in a short time.

 

Hepatitis B is sexually transmitted and for the convenience of the public health

prevention efforts they " catch em while you can " when they are babies because

most parents/doctors would forget to do it in adolescence/teen years.

 

D

 

 

 

 

 

 

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

 

 

[Guest guest]

WV and Mississippi even have medical exemptions - they are the only

two that do not honor religious exemption.

 

~Susan

 

 

On Apr 24, 2008, at 1:32 PM, cdstalling1 wrote:

 

> And there definently are exemptions in all states except two.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thanks for sharing this - I had not read it before. But it's not

like mercury is the only toxic substance in these vax. If someone

told me what was in it and then asked me to swallow it in some

medicine syrup, I would gladly decline. Someone also posted that

they can't get the ingredients from their doctor. If you do vax, you

really should get the insert from the vial being injected into your

child. There was a news story recently in my area about doctors

still having vax that have thermisol/mercury. The manufacturers

don't put it in the new vax, but there are still vax on the shelves

and in doctors offices that do have mercury. The mercury vax were

never recalled so a doctor has the right to use that vax as long as

it is not expired.

..

~Susan

 

 

On Apr 24, 2008, at 2:50 PM, robin koloms wrote:

 

> Bobby Kennedy jr. is (among other things) and activist on this

> issue. Here is a link to a great article that he could only get

> published in Rolling Stone:http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/

> story/7395411/deadly_immunity/

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Jamie!

This is indeed a touchy subject! I've also been wondering what others on

this group do as far as vaccinations, but was afraid of starting an

argument!

 

We don't vaccinate either of our girls. We made the decision before our

first was born. At the time I thought to wait until she was 2 and then do

the delay vaccinations. But the more research I did, the more convinced I

was that it was not for me or my girls. But it is a personal decision and

it is hard to come to!

 

This site was the clincher for me:

http://www.909shot.com/Vaccine%20Excipients%20CDC.pdf

I just could not imagine putting those chemicals and toxins into the body of

my girls! And I'm not even talking about the mercury, I'm talking about the

formmaldehyde, aluminum (linked to Alzheimers....and other neurological

diseases), hydrochloric acid, etc...

 

And as a vegan, the thought of them using monkey kidney tissues, chick

embryos , chick kidney cells, bovine tissue, etc. to grow the

vaccines....well, I couldn't justify that either.

 

Also, I believe as a few others have said that our bodies are very resilient

and we have an immune system for a reason! If we keep our kids as healthy

as possible by feeding them whole foods, they will have a much better chance

at fighting off anything that comes their way.

 

Anyway, that's how I came to my decision. But as others have said it is an

entirely personal decision. You just need to read and educate yourself to

both sides of the issue and be able to live with whatever decision it is you

make.

Good Luck!

Elizabeth

 

On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 3:49 PM, lilbludaisy <lilbludaisies wrote:

 

> Hi all!

>

> I don't know if this has been discussed before or not, but I am

> SOOOOOO confused about immunizations, vaccinations, etc. I have read

> the basis of both views (being immunized or not) and I still do not

> know what to believe. Can anyone give me some input on the subject?

> I spoke with my chiropractor about it and none of his kids are

> immunized. He was telling me about how they are bred and grown as

> well as some of the ingredients in them. I was disgusted! Then

> there are the views I have been reading from Babytalk, Parenting,

> Parents, and Wonder Time (I know, I should be subscribing to

> Mothering-Natural Family Living instead, which is on my list of

> thyings to do, lol) and they keep reassuring the reader that all this

> talk aagainst immunizations is bull. My son is 15 months old and has

> not been immunized yet due to the fact that obviously I was leaning

> more toward being against it. Am I making the right decision? What

> if their is an outbreak of measles or small pox or whatever else they

> got vaccinations for these days? I don't know what to think and it

> worries me. Thanks for your help! I've learned so much already from

> reading all your posts. I appreciate it!

>

> Jamie

>

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Renee,

I can't imagine having the challenges that your grandmother faced with all

those children to raise.

I have 2 friends that had polio, both have issues with walking and other

things. They both did not vaccinate their children. I have chosen not to

vaccinate as well.

Each family comes to the decision with our own unique set of thoughts and

feelings; and we all make this choice the best we can with our children in

mind.

Peace,

Laura

 

 

In a message dated 4/24/2008 2:59:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

renecarol25 writes:

 

My grandmother came to live with our family in 1980 when she could no longer

take care of herself. She had managed to raise 6 kids without being able to

walk. But the older she got the harder it was to manage. She got this

horrible disease (polio) as a baby and had to live her life without being able

to

walk. As a child I got to see my grandmother live with the effects of a disease

that there were no vaccinations against in 1907 when she contracted polio.

I've always been pro-vaccination. Now I don't think that things like flu shots

are neccessary. But for crippling and life-threatening illness I absolutely

want my child protected.

Renee

 

 

 

 

 

 

**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car

listings at AOL Autos.

(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Never let your child have a shot without reading the insert. One of our

friend's kids was about to get an expired vaccine from his ped...

 

Susan Williams <virgo.vegan wrote: Thanks for sharing this -

I had not read it before. But it's not

like mercury is the only toxic substance in these vax. If someone

told me what was in it and then asked me to swallow it in some

medicine syrup, I would gladly decline. Someone also posted that

they can't get the ingredients from their doctor. If you do vax, you

really should get the insert from the vial being injected into your

child. There was a news story recently in my area about doctors

still having vax that have thermisol/mercury. The manufacturers

don't put it in the new vax, but there are still vax on the shelves

and in doctors offices that do have mercury. The mercury vax were

never recalled so a doctor has the right to use that vax as long as

it is not expired.

..

~Susan

 

On Apr 24, 2008, at 2:50 PM, robin koloms wrote:

 

> Bobby Kennedy jr. is (among other things) and activist on this

> issue. Here is a link to a great article that he could only get

> published in Rolling Stone:http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/

> story/7395411/deadly_immunity/

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jamie,

 

I think it is a great idea to reach out for information when making such a

big decision in your family.

 

 

 

I highly recommend the book by Dr. Feder, Childhood Vaccinations. You can

find this on her website: http://www.drfeder.com/

 

My son is not vaccinated, and Dr. Feder, an MD, has not vaccinated her

children. However, I do like her approach of identifying the vaccines, pros

and cons as well as homeopathic alternatives for interim protection that can

be used.

 

 

 

I also like that if I change my mind and decide to vaccinate that Dr. Feder

does offer thimerosal-free vaccines at her office. She is very committed to

the fact that you make yourself aware of the pros and cons, so that your

family can make an educated decision on what works best for you. If the

decision is to vaccinate she wants to provide an environment where you can

have access to the most risk-free vaccines that are available. (She also

offers vaccine safety workshops if anyone is in the Southern CA area and is

interested, they are posted on her website when available).

 

 

 

Best wishes in making your decision.

 

Paige

 

 

 

_____

 

On

Behalf Of lilbludaisy

Wednesday, April 23, 2008 1:50 PM

 

Vaccinations and Immunizations...

 

 

 

Hi all!

 

I don't know if this has been discussed before or not, but I am

SOOOOOO confused about immunizations, vaccinations, etc. I have read

the basis of both views (being immunized or not) and I still do not

know what to believe. Can anyone give me some input on the subject?

I spoke with my chiropractor about it and none of his kids are

immunized. He was telling me about how they are bred and grown as

well as some of the ingredients in them. I was disgusted! Then

there are the views I have been reading from Babytalk, Parenting,

Parents, and Wonder Time (I know, I should be subscribing to

Mothering-Natural Family Living instead, which is on my list of

thyings to do, lol) and they keep reassuring the reader that all this

talk aagainst immunizations is bull. My son is 15 months old and has

not been immunized yet due to the fact that obviously I was leaning

more toward being against it. Am I making the right decision? What

if their is an outbreak of measles or small pox or whatever else they

got vaccinations for these days? I don't know what to think and it

worries me. Thanks for your help! I've learned so much already from

reading all your posts. I appreciate it!

 

Jamie

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I believe me mother told me about Hallelujah Acres. That's sounds so

familiar...my parents are vegan as well...I would have to agree with

you on the fact that God did create our bodies with immune systems to

fight against those things which harm us. I never thought of it that

way before. And, yes, my family does eat as healthy as vegetarians

and as organic as we can get, so, yeah, that would boost what we need

to fight against germs. I will definitely check that book out of the

library. Thank you!!

 

, " cdstalling1 " <cdstalling

wrote:

>

> Jamie,

>

> I too questioned vaccinations and what they are all about. I

started

> looking after my one-year-old had her first set of shots. There was

> just something about the idea that did not sit right in my stomach.

> Then of course I saw Jenny McArthy on Oprah and that reaffirmed

that

> I needed to do some research. There was one book that I read that

> totally broke everything down and that I recommend reading. It

> really depends on your belief system whether or not you would like

> to read this book. The author is a Christian and literally goes

back

> to the way that God created our bodies and shows why we do not need

> vaccinations. God would not have created a body to only halfway

> protect us. The author, Michael Dye, is part of a group called

> Hallelujah Acres and they are extreme vegan. They base their diet

on

> Genesis and how God created us to eat in the garden before sin.

The

> book is called " Vaccinations: Deception and Tragedy. " If you really

> are feeding your child a vegetarian or vegan diet, they are sooo

> much healthier than most children and their bodies are functioning

> without all that crap they put in processed foods and meats and

> dairy. It basically breaks down to cell formation. The book is

> amazing and easy to read. You are making the most amazing decision

> for your children and their health. There is no point is spending

> all of that time and money in making sure there are no chemicals in

> your families food and then turning around and injecting them with

> it at the doctor. A huge percentage of what doctor's make comes

from

> vaccinating, so they are of course going to push you to do that. If

> you even read the label on the container the vaccines comes in, it

> states all of the side effects and doctors won't even tell you

about

> it. And there definently are exemptions in all states except two.

> You would need to look for your personal state. I hope that this

> helps. It definently is a touchy subject for some people but you

are

> doing the right thing.

>

[Guest guest]

I just wanted to say a big THANK YOU to everyone for their input. I

never knew I could cause such a buzz, lol...anyways, I'm glad I did.

Your opinions and info have helped me greatly. I too think that

their is probably no perfect decision as I have read in one of the

posts and I breastfeed so that is a plus as well. Plus, eating a

whole foods veg diet does give the body a boost, too. I'll be

reading all the articles and links you guys put out and looking up

those books that have been recommended. Please, if you have any more

info or whatever you want to say, keep the posts coming regarding

this topic. I wanna know as much as I can.

 

Thanks again!

Jamie

 

, " lilbludaisy " <lilbludaisies

wrote:

>

> Hi all!

>

> I don't know if this has been discussed before or not, but I am

> SOOOOOO confused about immunizations, vaccinations, etc. I have

read

> the basis of both views (being immunized or not) and I still do not

> know what to believe. Can anyone give me some input on the

subject?

> I spoke with my chiropractor about it and none of his kids are

> immunized. He was telling me about how they are bred and grown as

> well as some of the ingredients in them. I was disgusted! Then

> there are the views I have been reading from Babytalk, Parenting,

> Parents, and Wonder Time (I know, I should be subscribing to

> Mothering-Natural Family Living instead, which is on my list of

> thyings to do, lol) and they keep reassuring the reader that all

this

> talk aagainst immunizations is bull. My son is 15 months old and

has

> not been immunized yet due to the fact that obviously I was leaning

> more toward being against it. Am I making the right decision?

What

> if their is an outbreak of measles or small pox or whatever else

they

> got vaccinations for these days? I don't know what to think and it

> worries me. Thanks for your help! I've learned so much already

from

> reading all your posts. I appreciate it!

>

> Jamie

>

[Guest guest]

>God did create our bodies with immune systems to

>fight against those things which harm us.

 

sorry, but I have to interject some food for thought....

 

God also created pathogenic organisms that are genetically programmed to

reproduce and succeed at the expense of whatever host (human or otherwise) fits

it's needs.

 

God created the rabies virus and also dogs and other susceptible animals that

bite.

 

God also created those early pioneers who cleverly figured out how to expose

healthy people to cow pox scabs from sick people to prevent small pox- a low

tech vaccination process using their immune systems.

 

Likewise, God created those minds that figured out the vaccine that can be given

(after a bite) to prevent rabies- which is nearly always fatal in humans.

 

vaccines mimic our own natural reaction to pathogens in a less risky way as far

as disease transmission- but to benefit the most people, there has to be

preservatives added when the vaccines are produced- which adds another set of

risks.

 

to my mind, the goal should be not to get rid of all vaccines but to create the

safest vaccines as possible for those that choose to utilize certain ones.

 

I strongly believe that a healthy vegan diet is key to a strong immune system

but I also know that with air travel, mobile society and widespread antibiotics

and pesiticide use, air/water pollution, we are exposed to pathogens and

chemicals that are way beyond what our immune systems would " normally "

encounter.

 

Peace,

Danita

[Guest guest]

, " lilbludaisy " <lilbludaisies wrote:

> Please, if you have any more

> info or whatever you want to say, keep the posts coming regarding

> this topic. I wanna know as much as I can.

>

> Thanks again!

> Jamie

>

 

A friend loaned me this book - Murder By Injection—The Story Of The Medical

Conspiracy Against America, Eustace Mullins - if you can get a copy, I strongly

suggest

you read it as part of your research while you try to sort out this issue for

your family.

The thing that gave me an " Ah Ha! " moment was this:

 

Another practitioner, Dr. W. B. Clarke of Indiana, finds that " Cancer was

practically

unknown until compulsory vaccination with cowpox vaccine began to be introduced.

I

have had to deal with at least two hundred cases of cancer, and I never saw a

case of

cancer in an unvaccinated person. "

 

Just something else to think about...

 

Susan

[Guest guest]

The Industrial Revolution brought a drastic increase in airborne pollutants; I

would think that this contributed to cancer rates.

 

Susan <virgo.vegan wrote: ,

" lilbludaisy " <lilbludaisies wrote:

> Please, if you have any more

> info or whatever you want to say, keep the posts coming regarding

> this topic. I wanna know as much as I can.

>

> Thanks again!

> Jamie

>

 

A friend loaned me this book - Murder By Injection—The Story Of The Medical

Conspiracy Against America, Eustace Mullins - if you can get a copy, I strongly

suggest

you read it as part of your research while you try to sort out this issue for

your family.

The thing that gave me an " Ah Ha! " moment was this:

 

Another practitioner, Dr. W. B. Clarke of Indiana, finds that " Cancer was

practically

unknown until compulsory vaccination with cowpox vaccine began to be introduced.

I

have had to deal with at least two hundred cases of cancer, and I never saw a

case of

cancer in an unvaccinated person. "

 

Just something else to think about...

 

Susan

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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